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Some debates on this board have been centered on that concept that YHWH means He will become. Although I will agree that it can mean that, that does not translate to God becoming a man. Still others may not latch onto the YHWH = Becoming, they still cling to the concept of God becoming a man. When confronted with this silliness they claim that God can do anything He wants to do. The question becomes “Can God do anything?”
Malachi 3:6?”For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
It has been pointed out that this verse was about the context that God’s promises do not change. That actually supports my contention that God cannot become a man. Before I continue I will remind you of some of the names for God.
Elohay Kedem – God of the Beginning: (Deuteronomy 33:27).
Elohay Mishpat – God Of Justice: (Isaiah 30:18). Elohay Selichot – God Of Forgiveness: (Nehemiah 9:17).
Elohay Marom – God Of Heights: (Micah 6:6). Elohay Mikarov – God Who Is Near: (Jeremiah 23:23).
Elohay Mauzi – God Of My Strength: (Psalm 43:2). Elohay Tehilati – God Of My Praise: (Psalm 109:1). Elohay Yishi – God Of My Salvation: (Psalm 18:47, 25:5).
Elohim Kedoshim – Holy God: (Leviticus 19:2, Joshua 24:19).
Elohim Chaiyim – Living God: (Jeremiah 10:10). Elohay Elohim – God Of Gods: (Deuteronomy 10:17). ?
El HaNe'eman – The Faithful God: (Deuteronomy 7:9).
El HaGadol – The Great God: (Deuteronomy 10:17).
El HaKadosh – The Holy God: (Isaiah 5:16). El Yisrael – The God Of Israel: (Psalm 68:35). El HaShamayim – The God Of The Heavens: (Psalm 136:26).
El De'ot – The God Of Knowledge: (1 Samuel 2:3). El Emet – The God Of Truth: (Psalm 31:6).
El Yeshuati – The God Of My Salvation: (Isaiah 12:2).
El Elyon – The Most High God: (Genesis 14:18). Immanu El – God Is With Us: (Isaiah 7:14).
El Olam – The God Of Eternity (Genesis 21:33).
El Echad – The One God: (Malachi 2:10).Of course these are only a few of the names in the OT. Notice if you will that many of them do not have to do with God’s physical nature, but relate to attributes of His character. As in Mal 3:6 God’s promises do not change because God’s character does not change.
From “Let us reason Ministries”
When we consider God, a being that is almighty who created everything that existed we don't usually think that there are things God cannot do. There are many things man can’t do, but there are also things God can’t do. That’s right God can’t do all things. It is not because He is unable to, that He is limited in power in any way. It is because of who He is in nature. There are guidelines that even God cannot step over. For example God cannot be God and not be God at the same time. He cannot create another God from a creature that would be made equal with himself. The secondary God would be derived from and dependent on the first so it would be finite. Since he had a beginning it could not be as powerful as its originator. One of the first requirements for being God is to be be infinite and eternal, so a created god does not qualify for the job description of being God.
So what can't He do?
1. It is impossible for God to lie. Can God make two plus two equal five? It is impossible for God to lie, so he is consistent with truth which has absolutes. His standard of right and wrong does not change.
Heb.6:18 He can’t lie = he can’t break a unconditional promise what he says he will fulfill. He is the truth, there is no darkness in him. He cannot go back on His Word.
When he told Abraham to take his only son and put him on the altar, Abraham knew that if God allowed him to have Isaac killed he would have had to raise him up back to life. This is because he already promised Abraham that through Isaac the promises of his Covenant would come.
God can never send another flood over the whole earth like he did in Noah's day. Its not that he doesn't have the ability, He can’t do it because He promised He never would do it again (the rainbow is there to remind us of this truth). God’s nature is inclined to truth which means He keeps His promises.
2.Can God make a rock so big that even he can’t lift it? If he can’t lift it then he is not all powerful. Then the rock has become more powerful than God and whatever is more powerful than God is God. God has infinite qualities not finite, God can only do things that are possible he can’t make square circles or a two sided triangle. It is asking God to bring about a logically contradictory state to his own nature.
This is what is called a category mistake to say he can make something he can’t lift. Its like asking a bachelor what his wife’s name is? What does the color yellow taste like. Color doesn’t taste. Its not possible for God to make a rock so big that even he can’t lift it. If he can make it he can lift it. If he can create it , he can destroy it. . It does not show that God has a limit to his power which means he does not possess infinite power. This means whatever he created is under his jurisdiction under his control, it can never have equality.
“Whatever implies being and nonbeing simultaneously is incompatible with the absolute possibility which falls under divine omnipotence. Such a contradiction is not subject to it, not from any impotence in God, but because it simply does not have the nature of being feasible or possible. Whatever, then, does not involve a contradiction is in the realm of the possible with respect to which God is omnipotent. Whatever involves a contradiction is not within the scope of omnipotence because it cannot qualify for possibility. Better, however, to say that it cannot be done, rather than God cannot do it.” (T. Aquinas Summa Theologica p. 163-164 , Volume I, ques. 15 ans. 3)
3.Can God stop being God or stop existing? The nature of God is infinite meaning no end. God's unchanging moral character is a moral absolute. This includes holiness, justice, love, mercy and truth. God is who He is forever and is the only constant thing (being) in the universe. Only created things subject to time and space which are of a non eternal substance can change. God could not change if he wanted to (which he would not ) Because he is the highest and ultimate state of perfection. Words fail to describe at this point the state God is in.
4. He is not free to act contrary to his nature that is permanent. Does this mean he is not all powerful? No- it means that as a perfect and unchangeable being His commands and actions are rooted in the ultimate good which flow from his nature. God's moral character does not change. “I the Lord change not “Mal.3:6. There is no shadow of change with God (Jm.1:17).
His nature is eternal. He cannot say tomorrow I’ll act like the devil for a while or sin as man does. What God has been, He will always be, (the I Am). He is completely self sufficient within himself.
5.God cannot sin, Holiness is part of his intrinsic nature, He cannot do otherwise.
6.God cannot learn anything new. Before He created anything He knew all about it. There is no progression in knowledge for God as their is with man. God has no limitations on anything that He can create.
7.God cannot answer every prayer you want but only those that are in accordance to His will being done on earth. He cannot answer prayers that would do the very opposite of His purposes.
8. God is always right-When God does something, it is not right because He did it. It is right because it is right. It is not good because God chose it, therefore it must be good! God chose it because it is good, God wills it because it is good, it’s not good simply because he wills it or chose it to be. God is not arbitrary or capricious. He knows the greater good because he possesses all knowledge. All of nature shows this to be true. Order is of the greater design and objective, chaos is not. To preserve life is the greater good, to take life is not, (exceptions are the rarity). This is because a
ll flow from His moral nature. So while God is all powerful he cannot act or think contrary to his perfect eternal unlimited nature, which is the ultimate moral good.End quote —
Some insist that God became a man. In order for the being we know as God to become a man, He would need to change His character in order to be capable of sinning. How can God change His character from a being incapable of sin to a man that could sin?For a person to believe that YHWH can become a man, they must they must change the moral character of the perfect God.
In the Ten commandments is an interesting truth. “Thou shall not take the LORDS name in vain.” A better Hebrew translation would be “Do not misrepresent the character of God”.
Stripping YHWH of His unqualified perfect moral character is an insult to Him and to His human son and our brother Jesus.
Hi Martian,
Not much to add on this yet, but I just want to tell you how glad I am that you are back participating with such vigor! Keep it up, bro. Good stuff!
Love,
MandyActually I thought this was going to be another one of those threads where people try to say that GOD cannot do stuff, In an attempt to prove that GOD lied or that he can not do everything.
However, after reading this thread/post, I must say that I am quite impressed with the explaination provided here to some of the silly paradox's that I have had people try to throw at me concerning GOD.
Therefore I, would very much like to read more. Or be directed to a site that could provide more information. If that is at all possible. So anyway, I guess what I am trying to say is Good Job!
Thanks Mandy and Samual. I am glad you enjoyed my post. I am definately not in agreement with everything on that web site but this part was good.
Quote Actually I thought this was going to be another one of those threads where people try to say that GOD cannot do stuff, In an attempt to prove that GOD lied or that he can not do everything. Speaking of lying and stuff God cannot do, many Bibles translate Titus 1:2 to say God “cannot lie.”
It's just not in his nature.Quote Malachi 3:6?”For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed. It has been pointed out that this verse was about the context that God’s promises do not change. That actually supports my contention that God cannot become a man.
I have always looked at that scripture to mean attributes of God's character/personality and his sence of justice cannot change. In the previous verse, he is speaking about all the things he detests and still detests.Verse 5:
“And I will come near to YOU people for the judgment, and I will become a speedy witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against those swearing falsely, and against those acting fraudulently with the wages of a wage worker, with [the] widow and with [the] fatherless boy, and those turning away the alien resident, while they have not feared me,” Jehovah of armies has said.And then he says: 'I do not change, therefore…..'
He does not seem to be speaking of his appearance or form or anything like that.
Quote How can God change His character from a being incapable of sin to a man that could sin?
Good point.Quote (david @ Feb. 11 2009,13:48) Quote Actually I thought this was going to be another one of those threads where people try to say that GOD cannot do stuff, In an attempt to prove that GOD lied or that he can not do everything. Speaking of lying and stuff God cannot do, many Bibles translate Titus 1:2 to say God “cannot lie.”
It's just not in his nature.Quote Malachi 3:6?”For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed. It has been pointed out that this verse was about the context that God’s promises do not change. That actually supports my contention that God cannot become a man.
I have always looked at that scripture to mean attributes of God's character/personality and his sence of justice cannot change. In the previous verse, he is speaking about all the things he detests and still detests.Verse 5:
“And I will come near to YOU people for the judgment, and I will become a speedy witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against those swearing falsely, and against those acting fraudulently with the wages of a wage worker, with [the] widow and with [the] fatherless boy, and those turning away the alien resident, while they have not feared me,” Jehovah of armies has said.And then he says: 'I do not change, therefore…..'
He does not seem to be speaking of his appearance or form or anything like that.
Quote How can God change His character from a being incapable of sin to a man that could sin?
Good point.
I agree, but there are those that will still swear that God can become a man. Their doctrine is more important then defending the character of God.Quote How can God change His character from a being incapable of sin to a man that could sin? Being that I was raised in the Trininty Pentecostal Belief (Which just because I was raised under this teaching does not make everything that I have been told the truth.)
And, now that I am attending a Oneness church (Again just because I'm going there does not make everything that I am told the truth either).
It does appear to me that the Oneness are way more aggressive in their belief. In that, they seem to have the need to keep repeating their belief every 5 or 10 mins or so. Now, this could be because there is like 1500 people that go there with new people coming in and out every day. But, in casual conversation, about scripture that I have on a one on one basis. Where I am not even trying to refute there belief, If I mention a scripture that they automatically pick up on might protest their belief…they straight away restablish their belief.
When that was not even the main point of the conversation. It sometimes makes me wonder if they are trying to reconvience theirself or me more?
So…
This brings me to the point anyway…
The above “quoted” statement/question, is one of the biggest challenges that seems to be faced by mans mind.
Just as well as the question states “How can GOD change himself for a being that it is impossible for him to sin or tell a lie, go to a being that is capable of such things?”
Something similar can be asked for “How can GOD create something that is equal to himself?”
The whole thing is obviously way beyond our understanding.
I suppose that its not my job to try to preach something that I have no understanding of.
However, the fact remains that the Truth is out there. And there can be only the one Truth. GODS TRUTH.
So, this very clearly makes the statement that someone is lying and some one is not.
I'd really like to be able to know and understand the truth.
However, I may not have been acting like it all the time. Although, to the best of my own knowledge that is my hearts desire…to know and understand the WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.
It may be that you can't understand some things.
Just as GOD told Moses to go tell them that he was the “I AM, THAT I AM”
This tells me that GOD knew that when Moses asked who he was, that GOD knew that he would not understand himself.
Thus, he gave him that answer,
I AM, THAT I AM
The way we make that same statement in modern day speaking or slang is,
It is what it is.
Utimately, it just is.
This is one of my biggest battles. I know that GOD is GOD and he always has been GOD, always will be GOD.
I know that Jesus Christ Came to this earth in the form of a man like ourselves and paid the price for our sins with his blood.
What all went on “Behind the scenes” may be indeed beyond my understanding.
Or, it may be that I don't need to know that information that receive what has been made ready for me to receive.
It may just be as simple as:
Just believing that it is what it is. In order to receive what I need to receive.
And, all of this does not make me any better than anyone. In fact I because I realize what I am. I realize that I am not any better than the next man. Nor is the next man better than me.
Quote (Samuel @ Feb. 12 2009,05:48) Quote How can God change His character from a being incapable of sin to a man that could sin? Being that I was raised in the Trininty Pentecostal Belief (Which just because I was raised under this teaching does not make everything that I have been told the truth.)
And, now that I am attending a Oneness church (Again just because I'm going there does not make everything that I am told the truth either).
It does appear to me that the Oneness are way more aggressive in their belief. In that, they seem to have the need to keep repeating their belief every 5 or 10 mins or so. Now, this could be because there is like 1500 people that go there with new people coming in and out every day. But, in casual conversation, about scripture that I have on a one on one basis. Where I am not even trying to refute there belief, If I mention a scripture that they automatically pick up on might protest their belief…they straight away restablish their belief.
When that was not even the main point of the conversation. It sometimes makes me wonder if they are trying to reconvience theirself or me more?
So…
This brings me to the point anyway…
The above “quoted” statement/question, is one of the biggest challenges that seems to be faced by mans mind.
Just as well as the question states “How can GOD change himself for a being that it is impossible for him to sin or tell a lie, go to a being that is capable of such things?”
Something similar can be asked for “How can GOD create something that is equal to himself?”
The whole thing is obviously way beyond our understanding.
I suppose that its not my job to try to preach something that I have no understanding of.
However, the fact remains that the Truth is out there. And there can be only the one Truth. GODS TRUTH.
So, this very clearly makes the statement that someone is lying and some one is not.
I'd really like to be able to know and understand the truth.
However, I may not have been acting like it all the time. Although, to the best of my own knowledge that is my hearts desire…to know and understand the WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.
It may be that you can't understand some things.
Just as GOD told Moses to go tell them that he was the “I AM, THAT I AM”
This tells me that GOD knew that when Moses asked who he was, that GOD knew that he would not understand himself.
Thus, he gave him that answer,
I AM, THAT I AM
The way we make that same statement in modern day speaking or slang is,
It is what it is.
Utimately, it just is.
This is one of my biggest battles. I know that GOD is GOD and he always has been GOD, always will be GOD.
I know that Jesus Christ Came to this earth in the form of a man like ourselves and paid the price for our sins with his blood.
What all went on “Behind the scenes” may be indeed beyond my understanding.
Or, it may be that I don't need to know that information that receive what has been made ready for me to receive.
It may just be as simple as:
Just believing that it is what it is. In order to receive what I need to receive.
And, all of this does not make me any better than anyone. In fact I because I realize what I am. I realize that I am not any better than the next man. Nor is the next man better than me.
To Address your point about the I Am.
A correct understanding of one simple word in that context clear up quite a bit. When Moses ask what is His name. The term name here is “shem” and means character or reputation.Consider the problem Moses had. God asks him to return to a land where he is hated by both The Egyptian and the Hebrews. He a Pharaoh’s son (so to speak) would not be trusted by the Israelites. He needed something to convince them that he had indeed talked to their God.
YHWH gave him first His character I AM. I exist. I am self perpetuating and eternal. Then gave him His reputation by saying He is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. This is something that the Hebrews would understand.I understand. At least I think I do.
However, My situation is this:
I have the Trinity in one ear saying GOD is not ONE he is THREE that agree in one. Or whatever, you most likely know more about the Trinity than I do and I was raised up in it.
Then I have the Oneness/ Apostolic in the other ear saying ….those Trinity people are wrong. GOD is not THREE GODS he is ONE GOD. All three are the same GOD.
Which brings you back to the question “If Jesus is the Same GOD that, for him it is impossible to sin or lie…how can he then have been tempted by Satan? to Sin and Lie?”
Then when you talk to people they say that GOD is indeed one GOD.
Yes I believe there is ONE GOD as well. GOD the Father that the Bible clearly states that he will one day be all in all. The same GOD the Father that Jesus said to pray to under the authority of His (Jesus') name and all would be given.
To be quite honest there is some questions that could be asked in either direction.
The real fact of the matter is this.
Are we more concerned about upholding what we think is right and what we have been taught?
Or…
Are we more concerned with finding out What the Real Truth is.
Because Jesus Says that the TRUTH will set us free.
He also states:
That to let every MAN be a Lair.
Therefore, the only one that is GOOD is GOD, he is also the only one that does not LIE.
So, the logical solution is to ask GOD, The Father, The GOD of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. In the name of JESUS CHRIST.
Just like we were instructed to.
In the name of=By the authority of. The Saviour, The Messiah.
The one whom will set the captives free.
The MAN that did not give in to temptation. The SON of GOD.
As the TRUTH of GODS word the Bible states it.
We always tend to say….
“Well if I could just…”
If you could just what?
What can you do?
What do you have the power to do own your own accord?
The best thing we can do is to Pray to GOD the Father in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. For the Knowledge and understanding to quit thinking that we are selves can do anything. To let GOD do what he wants to do.
He is the one that has all the power to do.
We have no more power to grow than a flower in the ground does with out the water that GOD gives it to grow on.
Without GOD, to supply the water the flower would surely die.
Samual —
The problem with The trinity and the oneness is that they both depend on Christ being deity. The “dual-nature” philosophy permeates both sides. This in spite of the very reasonable understanding that if Christ is not fully human then he cannot be our example.
One of the most important questions all Christians must determine is “Who is Jesus?” The word “Christian” itself means followers of Christ. It is imperative to know who Jesus is in order to follow him. The most critical aspect in examination of a living creature must be the make up of that creature. When speaking of the make up of Christ, there are very clear scriptures that determine his being.
Jesus has a human soul- Matt 26/38 – Then He said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me.”
Jesus has a human spirit and was mortal – Luke 23/46 – And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last. [The word “spirit” here is the word for human spirit not the Holy Spirit]
Jesus has a personal human will – John 5/30 I can do nothing on My own initiative As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Matt 26/39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”
Jesus has a human body – Mark 15/43 Joseph of Arimathea came, a prominent member of the Council, who himself was waiting for the kingdom of God; and he gathered up courage and went in before Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus.From these scriptures it is very clear that Jesus has the same general make up as the rest of humanity. But is Jesus like the rest of humanity in every way? Fortunately, scripture is very clear on this point.
Hebrews 2/17 and 18 – Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren IN ALL THINGS, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
All of Christianity is based on the fundamentals of Christ’s nature. One of the most fundamental teachings of scripture is that Jesus is to be our example and we are to become like him.
1 Peter 2/21 and 22 – For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
22 who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in his mouth;
1 John 2/5 and 6 – but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
Other scriptures are equally clear.
Jesus is the first to fulfill God’s plan. (I Cor 15/20,23)
Jesus is God’s only begotten son. Begotten meaning born or began. (Luke 2/1-7)
Jesus is a descendant of David. (Matt Chapter 1 and Mark 10/47)
Jesus sleeps (Mark 4/38)
Jesus cries (John 11/35)
Jesus Prays (Luke 6/12, 18/20)
Jesus is a prophet and speaks prophetically from His Father Yahweh. (John 8/40)
Jesus is the Messiah (John 1/41and John 4/25&26)
Jesus lives a sinless life.(II Cor 5/21)
There is one mediator between God (Yahweh) and Man (humanity) The MAN Christ Jesus. (I Tim 2/5) [The word “man” here is the Greek word Anthropos. It has only one meaning, human being.]
Jesus is our brother (Matthew 12:50 , Hebrews 2:11)
Jesus is in submission to God (Yahweh) (I Cor 15/25-28)
Jesus' source of Life is Yahweh (John 5/26)
Jesus willingly went to the cross. ( Mark 10/45 and John 10:17-18)
Jesus dies. ( Mark 15/37 and 44,45)
Jesus was raised from the dead by God (Yahweh) ( I Cor 6/14)
God (Yahweh) gave Jesus authority over all mankind. (Matt 28/13)
Jesus is King of heaven and earth until all His enemies are under His feet. ( I Cor 15/25)The previously stated scriptures are universally accepted among orthodox Christians. Even in light of these very clear scriptures most Christians come to believe what they have been taught from historical dogma. One of those historical doctrines is called the dual nature of Christ. This doctrine states that Jesus had a dual nature. He is both fully God and fully man at the same time. This belief is held by both Trinitarian and Oneness denominations. In fact, most of their belief systems are centered around this doctrine. For years the fight between Oneness and Trinitarian believers has raged. It is curious that both sides cling to this concept to support their dogma. But, does this doctrine stand up to close examination?
There are no such words as Dual Nature or 100% man and 100% God in scripture. In fact the concept is conspicuously absent in any clear form whatsoever. Would God hide this most important understanding of Christianity? Would the nature of Jesus remain hidden so as to make it impossible to understand or see him as a clear pattern?
When a doctrine requires words and phrases outside of clear scripture, one should take note and beware. One of the most common ways in which false teachers attempt to prove doctrine is by using scriptures out of context and reading scripture with preconceived ideas of doctrine. Instead of letting scripture interpret doctrine some let doctrine interpret scripture.
Since there are no clear scriptures to define this dual nature of Christ we must look elsewhere to determine it’s origin and history. First let’s look at some of the history, by which this doctrine entered the teaching of the church.Most of the primary tenants of the dual nature doctrine stem from several councils starting in 325 A.D. These councils were formed for the purpose of denouncing what was believed to be false doctrine and for instituting some central statements defining the faith. Unfortunately, by this time in history, Christianity had been corrupted by Paganism and Greek philosophy and the councils reflected this influince. The Nicean council stated that Jesus was fully God in response to the Arians who believed that Jesus was not God. Of course this council was lead by Constantine emperor of Rome, who himself was an admitted sun worshipper and forced his own will on the council by virtue of threats of death and banishment. Constantine himself suggested the critical statement that Jesus and God were of the same substance. This subject will be brought to more light later in this article.
The Apollianarians Did not believe that Jesus was fully human, therefore the council of Constantinople (381 A.D.) declared he was fully human.
The Nestorianism group denied that Mary could be called the mother of God. They believed that Mary was only the mother of the human part of Jesus. The resulting belief dictated that there exists two Christs, one divine and one human. In response to this the council of Ephesus (431 A.D.) decreed That the two natures of Jesus are one and cannot be separated.
This concept lead to an impossible conclusion. Everything that happened to Jesus, happened to both his divine and human natures. From this standpoint both natures were born of Mary and both died on the cross. This makes Mary, a human woman, the literal mother of God and that God literally died on the cross. Can a human woman be the mother of God?Can God literally die?
This concept that God can be a man contradicts very clear scripture.
Numbers 23/16 Then the Lord met Balaam and put a word in his mouth and said, “Return to Balik and thus you shall speak” Numbers 23/19
“God is not a man that He should lie, Nor a son of man that He should repent.”
God simply cannot be man or become man. Jesus continually spoke of His father and separated himself in distinction from Him.Mark 13:32 – [Jesus does not kno
w everything the Father knows] – “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”
[Is this the omniscience of a co-equal or dual natured person of God?]John 14:28 – “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.” [Again can Jesus be a co-equal person of God or have the nature of God and yet be lesser then Yahweh?]
John 20:17 – “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER; and to MY GOD, AND YOUR GOD.” [ Can a God (Jesus) have a God?]
1 Cor. 11:3 – “But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.” [Co-equal?, Dual Natured?]
1 Cor 15:24-28 – “Then cometh the end, when he [Jesus] shall have delivered up the kingdom to GOD; EVEN THE FATHER; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, THEN SHALL THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT UNTO HIM THAT PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIM, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.”
[ Clearly Jesus’ reign is subject to the Father. He eventually places all things, including himself into subjection to Yahweh ]In previous verses remember that Jesus clearly differentiates between the will of the Father and his own will. (John 5/30) In addition scripture clearly speaks of Jesus being made like his brethren (us) in ALL THINGS. Not in all things except his nature.(Hebrews 2/17 and 18)
Rather then continue to take the common approach of only dissecting scriptures let us, to some degree, examine this doctrine from a pure logical stand. Let’s discuss this from a functional standard. For a doctrine to function correctly it must accomplish goals that are in sinc with God’s plan. A teaching must help us to become like Christ. As previously stated, most orthodox Christians believe that Jesus has a full human nature and a full divine nature. In addition most believe that Jesus is the pattern son and that we are to become like him.STRIKE ONE
Let’s look at the dual nature aspect. In order for Jesus to possess both human and devine natures he must be mortal and immortal at the same time. Finite and infinite, infallible and infallible, temptable and non temptable, This is a logical impossibility. At this point most “dual nature believers” make statements such as “God’s ways are higher then our ways” or it is a paradox that we cannot understand with our feeble fallen minds.
Firstly from the very beginning of recorded history in scripture God has dealt with man according to reason and logic. The rules of action and reaction are clearly shown in God’s covenants with man. If we act in accordance with God’s covenant then we receive the blessing of God. If not then we do not. If God were not a reasoning creature or we not able to understand reason, we could never understand or follow his covenants. We are created in the image of God, with the same reasoning abilities as God. In fact God calls upon us to reason with Him. Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.” Would God calls us to reason with Him were we not capable of doing so?
Without clear understanding of how Jesus accompolished what he did we cannot imitate it. There must be an understanding of the nature and character of Jesus for us to follow.
In one of the most definitive statements in the word God proclaims to Moses “I Am”. This statement makes very clear that the nature of God does not change. He cannot be immortal one moment and mortal the next. God cannot be a Spirit and be flesh and blood.
Secondly this is not a paradox. A paradox is something that appears to be impossible yet proves itself to be possible. An example of a paradox is the belief held for years that, according to the then believed laws of physics, bumble bees could not fly. Yet bumble bees DID fly. This paradox existed because our understanding of nature continues to expand and further understanding resolved the paradox. This does not hold true with laws of reason and logic. There are absolute truths based on logic that do not change. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. There are no square circles. Black does not equal white ect. In the same way opposites cannot be equal. Jesus cannot being temptable and non-temptable at the same time. Jesus cannot be faillable and non-failable.
Simply put the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ cannot be expressed without causing contradictions. It cannot be stated in a meaningful way. We can recite the words but our minds cannot understand them in any logical way free of contradictions. It would be like saying something is a square and a circle at the same time. Logic does not permit such a conclusion.STRIKE TWO
Another problem with the dual nature concept arises when considering if Jesus is the same as the rest of humanity. The very essence of humanity is it’s single human nature. If you change the nature of a man, you change that man into a different creature. If the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ is true and Christ's two natures cannot be seperated, then he is fundamentally different then the rest of mankind, since we have only our single human nature and make up. This makes Jesus a different creature then the rest of Humanity. It makes him non human. Followers of this doctrine can state time and again that Jesus is fully human, but the belief that He has a different nature makes Him different. An augmented, dual natuerd Christ is not the same as the rest of humanity. They must, by excepting this doctrine, qualify Jesus’ humanity. This of course contradicts hundreds of very clear scriptures.
STRIKE THREE
This dual nature further begs the question, How is Jesus a pattern for us if he is different in nature then us? We then have to examine every act of Jesus to determine if he did it by virtue of his human nature or his divine nature? When Jesus healed people was it his divine or human nature in action. If we say it was his human nature then we must conclude that humanity has miracle power without God. If his divine nature then how can we do or imitate any of Jesus powerful gifts. After all we have only our human nature! Even though Jesus says “Greater things then this we you do”, we still must question from which nature he did them.
What of Jesus’ resurrection? The most powerful hope and example in the word. Did He resurrect as a man or as a God? What power did it? Of course scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead. This does not solve our dilemma. If Jesus' nature has to be qualified to fullfill the dual nature doctrine and the two natures cannot be seperated, then what was raised from the dead, a God or a man? Because this doctrine makes Jesus different we still must question his ability to be a pattern for us. The fact that God raised a dual nattured God/man from the dead is not an example for those of us that are of a single nature. How do we know that we, of a single nature, will be raised from the dead? Because this dual nature of Christ makes Jesus different, in basic nature, then the rest of humanity, we cannot use his life as an example. This scraps all of the plan of God to raise up others like Christ. How can others become dual natured like Jesus?I really did not expect to get much response on this board. Those that are for Pre-existence and the Trinity do not want to deal with the issues I have posted.
Martian said:
Quote Some insist that God became a man. In order for the being we know as God to become a man, He would need to change His character in order to be capable of sinning. How can God change His character from a being incapable of sin to a man that could sin? The problem with the formula postulated by Martian above is that Jesus did not know Himself to be capable of sin. He said,
Quote The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him (John 8:29). One who knows himself capable of sin could never speak with this kind of assurance. A man who knows himself capable of sin would never say “I always do those things that please Him” unless he is deluded like Peter. When Jesus said “I do always those things that please Him” he was speaking indicatively.
If Jesus was capable of sin, then it was possible for the Father to leave him alone. And if it was possible for the Father to leave him alone then it was possible that Jesus would not have died on the cross which infers that it was possible for God's covenant promise to fail. And if it was possible for God's covenant promise to fail, then God can change. But Hebrews says that God speaks immutably when He makes a promise.
Therefore, Jesus could not sin and God's character was not subject to the possibility of change by His becoming a man.
thinker
Hi TT,
God did not become a man.Numbers 23:19
” God is not a man, that He should lie,Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it?Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 14 2009,08:11) Martian said: Quote Some insist that God became a man. In order for the being we know as God to become a man, He would need to change His character in order to be capable of sinning. How can God change His character from a being incapable of sin to a man that could sin? The problem with the formula postulated by Martian above is that Jesus did not know Himself to be capable of sin. He said,
Quote The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him (John 8:29). One who knows himself capable of sin could never speak with this kind of assurance. A man who knows himself capable of sin would never say “I always do those things that please Him” unless he is deluded like Peter. When Jesus said “I do laways those things that please Him” he was speaking indicatively.
If Jesus was capable of sin, then it was possible for the Father to leave him alone. And if it was possible for the Father to leave him alone then it was possible that Jesus would not have died on the cross which infers that it was possible for God's covenant promise to fail. And if it was possible for God's covenant promise to fail, then God can change. But Hebrews says that God speaks immutably when He makes a promise.
Therefore, Jesus could not sin and God's character was not subject to the possibility of change by His becoming a man.
thinker
I said
Some insist that God became a man. In order for the being we know as God to become a man, He would need to change His character in order to be capable of sinning. How can God change His character from a being incapable of sin to a man that could sin?you say
The problem with the formula postulated by Martian above is that Jesus did not know Himself to be capable of sin. He said,Quote
The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him (John 8:29).One who knows himself capable of sin could never speak with this kind of assurance. A man who knows himself capable of sin would never say “I always do those things that please Him” unless he is deluded like Peter. When Jesus said “I do laways those things that please Him” he was speaking indicatively.
Reply –
This is speculation. Why could a man not say that. A man who had a perfect relationship with His father could be capable of saying that. No problem.15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
How can Jesus be tempted in all ways like us if he did not know he was capable of sin. Without knowing you can sin, it is impossible to be tempted to sin.
You say-
If Jesus was capable of sin, then it was possible for the Father to leave him alone.Reply –
Are you inferring that Jesus had some special connection with God that is not available to us? A connection that made it impossible for him to sin?Without Jesus’ full capability and possibility of sin, He cannot be our example of how to overcome temptation.
You say-
And if it was possible for the Father to leave him alone then it was possible that Jesus would not have died on the cross which infers that it was possible for God's covenant promise to fail.Reply-
This looks like a rabbit trail of mystery and speculation.
Yes it was possible for Christ to fail. Christ prayed in the Garden to have this cup passed from him. By his own free will did He go to the cross. He did not want to die. As a man he had hopes and dreams and desires like all men. He set them aside so that he could do the work of His Father.You say-
And if it was possible for God's covenant promise to fail, then God can change. But Hebrews says that God speaks immutably when He makes a promise.Reply-
God could make the promises of the Messiah by foreknowledge and not by predestination. God knew what would happen and made the promises on that basis. God knowing something would happen is not the same as God taking action to make something happen.
Jesus putting to death the flesh on the cross is a type of us doing the same everyday. We have the ability to fail in that endeavor. Without Jesus’ ability to fail to go to the cross, He cannot be our example in that either.Everything that Christ did from His conception forward had to be in like manner as, and available to us. Without that, He cannot be held up by the judge of all the Earth as our example. God is a righteous judge.
“ Will not the judge of all the Earth do what is right” Could a righteous judge allow Christ to have an advantage over us and then hold him up as the example we are to be like?You have said many times that you believe man to be wicked at the core and that you have major trust issues with all men. I do not believe that all men in their deepest being are evil. We could discuss this but it would take us off the intent of this thread. Suffice it to say that I believe the Hebrew teaching that we all have a measure of the presence of God in us, breathed into humanity through our father Adam. The breath in the Hebrew language is used at times to denote character. God breathed of His character into Adam. That place of intimacy deep in the heart of a person. Some today call it the conscious.
Satan is called the anointed cherub that covers. His job was to cover man. Even after the fall of Satan he still carried out his personality to cover man, but now with coverings of flesh. After Adam fell he covered his intimate parts with things of the world. That which God had breathed in him was covered by sin and the flesh. God replaced the fig leaves with the skin of an animal. I will speculate and say it was the skin of a lamb. And so our sins are covered by the blood of a lamb.It is getting onto supper time and I am tired, but I think you can catch my drift from what I have answered.
Thinker said:
Quote One who knows himself capable of sin could never speak with this kind of assurance. A man who knows himself capable of sin would never say “I always do those things that please Him” unless he is deluded like Peter. When Jesus said “I do laways those things that please Him” he was speaking indicatively. Martian replied:
Quote This is speculation. Why could a man not say that. A man who had a perfect relationship with His father could be capable of saying that. No problem. Martian,
First I want to say publically what I in my pm to you today that I said that I will not reply to anyone but YOU.Now to answer your reply. I made the point that if it was possible for Jesus to sin then God's word could have been nullified and this would mean that God can change. You have not answered bro. Just answer “Yes” or “No”.
Martian said:
Quote Are you inferring that Jesus had some special connection with God that is not available to us? A connection that made it impossible for him to sin? Yeah! Jesus did claim to have a “special connection” with God. He said,
Quote My Father has been working until now and I work (John 5;17) So what happened next? The Jews wanted to kill Jesus because He distinguished Himself from the rest of them.
Quote Therefore, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He had not only broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His OWN (v.18) Jesus went against the establishment with such a claim. Why do you think they wanted to kill Him? If He would have claimed a common connection with others they would have said, “Now that's cool. Let's leave the man alone.” But He said, “God is MY OWN” and this is why they wanted to kill Him.
It falls upon you to explain why Jesus was put to death if He taught that He had a common connection to God with other men. And you must also explain how Jesus could have been capable of sin without the real possibility that God's promise could fail.
I repeat, if Jesus could sin, then the real possibility existed that God's promise could fail. And if there was a real possibility that God's promise could fail, then God can change. It's that simple! It's really that simple!
love,
thinkerHi TT,
Jn517 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.What translation are you relying on?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2009,13:11) Hi TT,
Jn517 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.What translation are you relying on?
Hi Nick,
Normally I will not be discoursing with others except Martian on this thread. But you are asking a question that deserves attention. I am relying on the Greek text itself which reads thus,Quote But Jesus answered them, “My Father until now works and I work.” Because of this therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, not only because he did break the sabbath, but also called God his OWN Father, making himself equal with God. The ESV,
Quote …but he was even calling God his OWN Father making Himself equal with God The NIV,
Quote …but he was even calling God his OWN Father, making himself equal with God The NASB,
Quote …but also was calling God his OWN Father, making himself equal with God Jesus used the word “idios” which means “one's own exclusively“. Jesus used the same word in John 10:12,
Quote I lay dowm my OWN life for the sheep .
It was forbidden in Jewish thought to speak of God in this way. A Jew would never have said that God was his own Father. The Jews spoke saying “our Father” in reference to God. Our brother Martian puts a lot of stock in Hebrew thought and language. The Jews were the best interpreters of their language. And according to them Jesus implied that he enjoyed equality with God by calling God his OWN Father.
Yet anti-trinarians still try to explain this away by saying that the Jews incorrectly thought that Jesus implied equality with God. The problem with this explanation is no small one for we may plainly observe that the narrator also interpreted Jesus in the same way. It is the apostle John telling us that Jesus implied equality with God. Therefore, if the Jews misunderstood Jesus then so did the apostle John. And if the apostle John misunderstood Jesus then his account of Jesus' life and teachings is altogether unreliable.
Martian is correct in saying that if Jesus could not sin then he had a special connection with God. Martian doesn't like this idea. But we cannot interpret the Scriptures based on what we like or don't like. Martian and I agree that God cannot change in reference to a promise He has made because His character cannot change. Therefore, Jesus was incapable of sin. For if Jesus was capable of sin then the real possibility always existed for God's promise to fail. This necessarily means that the real possibility always existed for God to change.
Martian has failed to prove that God's becoming a man implied that His character could change.
thinker
Hi TT,
No problem.
God was Jesus's own father.Jesus really was the Son of God
Mt1
20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.Hi TT,
God did not become a man. God was IN Christ.
2Cor5
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.IN Jesus God visited His people.
Luke 1:68
” Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,Luke 7:16
Fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, “A great prophet has arisen among us!” and, “God has visited His people!”
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