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Quote (david @ Sep. 16 2011,06:54) Gene, I must go now. I only have time to address the first 6 points: Quote 1) I don't care what either A. K. Heckel or J. G. Sigman said. 2) Nor does it matter what Augustus Neander had to say.
3) Edward Gibbon words make no difference either.
4) Do you think that finding others to agree with your position, like R. Johnson,
somehow adds to your position? (See Five common fallacies link)Quote (david @ Dec. 20 2005,14:11)
5) FALLACY NUMBER 2 …APPEALING TO AUTHORITY6) “Useless for all affairs of life” …is this what your organization teaches?
OK, let me rephrase:
(A)It is a fact that the earliest Christians did not engage in politics (or war). Check any source you like. Google it. I just did. I found the same thing. So yes, regardless of what a few authorities have said, it seems an established fact that the earliest Christians (the ones taught by Christ and the ones that came just after,) did not take part in politics or government.
Secondly, it was not a matter of finding others to agree with a position, regarding JW belief. We know this, because in the early days, they did go to war, for example. So, they had no solid position for a while, (B)but developed one through scripture. And the FACT that the earliest Christians came to the same conclusion regarding these things, helps.
(C)I also consider it a fact that Jesus, John, Peter, Paul, Jude, spoke of an apostasy that would come after the apostles going away. If the earliest Christians refused politics, and those who came after embrased politics, which is more likely to have the correct view?
None of this is the heart of the issue. The Bible is, but (D)the fact that the earliest Christians unquestionably stayed out of politics should give us a clue.
I have to go.
Hi David,A) Was not Constantine a Cristian convert; did he not engage in politics?
B) Can you list the Scriptures that led to this belief?
C) Are you inferring that the apostasy was to engage in politics?
D) My point lettered “A” questions this.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgedj
all religion are base on the ignorance and leasiness of people ,and this take away the true worship from God,
Pierre
Quote A) Was not Constantine a Cristian convert; did he not engage in politics? B) Can you list the Scriptures that led to this belief?
C) Are you inferring that the apostasy was to engage in politics?
D) My point lettered “A” questions this.
First, I would make a distinction :
If a politician becomes a Christian and then gives up politics, it's different from “early Christians engaging in politics.”
I'm not saying no politicians became Christians.Anyway,
A) Yes, he engaged in politics. As for whether he really became a Christian (follower of Christ) here is what JW's say. (I realize now that I can save a lot of time, since you only are asking what JW's believe, I can just quote them:Did He Ever Become a Christian?
Johnson notes: “Constantine never abandoned sun-worship and kept the sun on his coins.” The Catholic Encyclopedia observes: “Constantine showed equal favour to both religions. As pontifex maximus he watched over the heathen worship and protected its rights.” “Constantine never became a Christian,” states the encyclopedia Hidria, adding: “Eusebius of Caesarea, who wrote his biography, says that he became a Christian in the last moments of his life. This doesn’t hold water, as the day before, [Constantine] had made a sacrifice to Zeus because he also had the title Pontifex Maximus.”
Down to the day of his death in 337 C.E., Constantine bore the pagan title of Pontifex Maximus, the supreme head of religious matters. Regarding his baptism, it is reasonable to ask, Was it preceded by genuine repentance and a turning around, as required in the Scriptures? (Acts 2:38, 40, 41) Was it a complete water immersion as a symbol of Constantine’s dedication to Jehovah God?—Compare Acts 8:36-39.Constantine’s Conversion—To What?
THE claimed conversion of Roman emperor Constantine has long interested students of religion. According to his own account, on the eve of a battle in 312 C.E., which he won, the pagan Constantine saw a vision of a cross with the motto: “In this [sign] conquer.” He was “converted” shortly thereafter (in 313 C.E.) and brought an end to the persecution of Christians in the Roman empire. Constantine encouraged the then current form of Christianity as a State religion, and even intervened in internal church disputes. However, he also committed acts that called into question the genuineness of his conversion and was not baptized until just before his death some 24 years later.
In an article in Bible Review, numismatist and doctoral student of theology Stanley A. Hudson revealed how the coinage struck during Constantine’s reign contributes some fascinating information on this subject. Up until Constantine’s time, it was common for Roman coins to depict the popular Roman deities. But Hudson reported that after Constantine’s conversion, pagan themes appeared less and less—with one exception. Coins depicting Sol, the sun god—formerly Constantine’s favorite—were minted profusely. Why?
Hudson suggested two possibilities. First, Constantine’s conversion may have been very gradual—despite his dramatic vision. Or Constantine may actually have confused Sol with Jesus. Syncretism (combination of different forms of belief) is not unusual even today. For example, in Latin America, the pre-Columbian goddesses Pacha-Mama and Tonantzin are still worshiped under the name of the Virgin Mary. In the same way, Constantine may have worshiped Sol under the name of Jesus.
Such syncretism would explain why December 25th, ‘the birthday of the unconquered sun,’ was chosen as the day to commemorate the birth of Jesus. It would also help us to see why on a coin minted to commemorate Constantine’s death there is an inscription “DV Constantinus” (“Divine Constantine”). This shows that, despite his conversion and eventual baptism, Constantine was viewed as a god after his death, just like the pagan emperors before him.Constantine became a believer, apparently, yet was only baptised 24 years later, before his death. You have to find that suspect.
B) I don't know which ones exactly. Here are some guesses:
We must make a personal decision following our Bible-trained conscience. (Galatians 6:5) While taking the authority of Caesar into account, we must weigh carefully what he owes to Jehovah. (Psalm 36:9; 116:12-14; Acts 17:28)
A Christian will remember that the mark of a true Christian is love for all his fellow believers, even those who live in other lands or those belonging to other tribes. (John 13:34, 35; 1 Peter 2:17)
Further, he will not forget the Scriptural principles found in texts such as Isaiah 2:2-4; Matthew 26:52; Romans 12:18; 14:19; 2 Corinthians 10:4; and Hebrews 12:14.
LUKE 22:49
“Lord, shall we strike with the sword?”
MATTHEW. 26:52
“Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’” (Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God? Yet, Jesus here indicated that those disciples were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.)
The fact that two swords were available among the disciples on the night of Jesus’ betrayal was not unusual for those times (Lu 22:38), and there is evidence that for Galileans in particular it was not uncommon to carry arms. (See The Jewish War, by F. Josephus, III, 42 [iii, 2].) Jesus’ words at Luke 22:36, “Let the one having no sword sell his outer garment and buy one,” would not indicate that his disciples were about to enter into a hazardous life. Rather, he desired to have a sword available among his followers on that night in order to demonstrate clearly that, though they would come into circumstances that could easily provoke armed resistance, he did not intend to resort to the sword but would give himself up voluntarily in harmony with God’s will. Thus, when Peter did react and try to put up armed resistance, lopping off the ear of Malchus, Jesus ordered him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.” (Mt 26:52; Joh 18:10, 11) Certainly, Peter’s sword and the other one at hand would have availed little against such a large group of armed men, and by trying to use them, they would undoubtedly have ‘perished by the sword.’ (Mt 26:47) More important, such attempted delivery of Jesus would have failed, being completely contrary to Jehovah God’s purpose. (Mt 26:53, 54) As it was, later that day Jesus could plainly state to Pilate: “If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”—Joh 18:36.MATTHEW 26:51-53
“But, look! one of those with Jesus [Peter, John 18:10] reached out his hand and drew his sword and struck the slave of the high priest and took off his ear. Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than twelve legions of angels?”
Peter learned this lesson well, and later reminded Christians:
1 PETER 2:21-23
“In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely. . . .When he was being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to the one who judges righteously.”
MATTHEW 22:39
“The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’”
JOHN 15:14,17
“YOU are my friends if YOU do what I am commanding YOU. . . .These t
hings I command YOU, that YOU love one another.”
LUKE 6:27, 28:
“I [Jesus Christ] say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”
JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””
1 JOHN 4:20
“If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen.”
1 JOHN 3:10-12
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother.”
(No Christian can war against another Christian—it would be like a man fighting himself.)
ISAIAH 2:2-4
“It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains . . . And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.” (Individuals out of all nations must personally decide what course they will pursue. Those who have heeded Jehovah’s judgment give evidence that he is their God.)2 CORINTHIANS 10:3,4 (NIV)
“For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.”
2 CORINTHIANS 10:3, 4:
“Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.” (Paul here states that he never resorted to fleshly weapons, such as trickery, high-sounding language, or carnal weapons, to protect the congregation against false teachings.)
MICAH 4:3
“And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”
JOHN 17:6
“They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”
(When the WORLD goes to war, what does a Christian do?)
MATTHEW 5:9
““Happy are the peaceable,” (See 2 Cor 13:11)Roman 12:18; 14:19; heb 12:14
ROMANS 12:17-21
“Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”
ROMANS 13:10
“Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.”
JOHN 6:15
“Jesus, knowing they [the Jews] were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.”
JOHN 18:36 (Jesus told the Roman governor)
“My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”
JAMES 4:4
“Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” (Why is the matter so serious? Because, as 1 John 5:19 says, “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” At John 14:30, Jesus referred to Satan as being “the ruler of the world.” So, no matter what worldly faction a person might support, under whose control would he really come?)
ACTS 4:19
“But in reply Peter and John said to them: “Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to YOU rather than to God, judge for yourselves.”
ACTS 5:29
“In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”
MATTHEW 22:21
“Pay back . . . Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.”
(When Caesar demands what belongs to God, we must acknowledge that God has the prior claim.)
REVELATION 13:10
“If anyone [is meant] for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones.”
GENESIS 1:26
“Let us make man in our image.”
(So to kill a man is to do a most unholy thing. If man is made in God's image, what does it mean to take a life?)
GENESIS 9:6
“Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man.”
(All mankind today are descendants of Noah; hence, this divine law that emphasizes respect for life is binding on all humans who desire God’s approval.)
ROMANS 12:19-21
“Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”
LUKE 21:20-21
““Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Ju·déa begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her;”
(In those days, Jewish factions were fighting one another, both verbally and by shedding blood. But Jesus’ disciples did not get mixed up in those revolutionary campaigns. For some 30 years they waited in Jerusalem. Then they obeyed Jesus’ prophetic sign by “fleeing to the mountains.” Their neutral stance and their flight resulted in their salvation.)
“A slave of the Lord does not need to fight.”–2 Timothy 2:24
(While the context shows that Paul was here referring to verbal fights, the original language word rendered “fight” (ma?khe?sthai) is generally associated with armed or hand-to-hand combat.)
PSALM 2:2
“The kings of earth take their stand And high officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one,”
DANIEL 2:44
““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;”
1 CORINTHIANS 11:3
“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.”
(God is above man.)
JOHN 19:10-11
“Hence Pilate said to him: “Are you not speaking to me? Do you not know I have authority to release you and I have authority to impale you?” Jesus answered him: “You would have no authority at all against me unless it had been granted to you from above. This is why the man that handed me over to you has greater sin.””
TITUS 1:16
“They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestabl
e and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.”
ACTS 10:34,35
“God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” (Does God have preferred nations?)
ROMANS 3:22b-23
“For there is no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
(No nation or country is without sin. With human wars, it’s not a matter of good verses evil. It’s a matter of sinful verses more sinful.)
2 PETER 3:9
“JEHOVAH is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but DESIRES ALL TO ATTAIN TO REPENTANCE.”
(Notice what Jehovah wants. And how will they do this if they are dead?)
MATTHEW 5:43-48
““YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.”
(We are to be different than the people of the nations. Vs 8)
**
LUKE 10:29,36-37
“But, wanting to prove himself righteous, the man said to Jesus: “Who really is my neighbor?”….”Who of these three seems to you to have made himself neighbor to the man that fell among the robbers?” He said: “The one that acted mercifully toward him.” Jesus then said to him: “Go your way and be doing the same yourself.””
PSALM 46:9
“He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; The wagons he burns in the fire.”
1 PETER 3:11
“let him seek peace and pursue it.”
GALATIANS 5:22,23
“fruitage of [God’s] spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”
ISAIAH 9:6,7
Jesus, is “prince of peace.”Luke 3 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
1 TIMOTHY 1:18
“This mandate I commit to you, child, Timothy, in accord with the predictions that led directly on to you, that by these you may go on waging the fine warfare;”
2 TIMOTHY 2:3
“As a fine soldier of Christ Jesus take your part in suffering evil.”
ACTS 17:26-28
“[God] made out of one man every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of the dwelling of men, for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. For by him we have life and move and exist.” (How different history would have been if mankind in general had taken note of Paul’s words! Today, mankind is riven by nationalism, class distinctions, racial hatreds, and social inequities. Yet, Paul’s words still apply. All of us are descendants of that one man created by God. All of us are, in that sense, brothers and sisters.)
PROVERBS 26:17
“As one grabbing hold of the ears of a dog is anyone passing by that is becoming furious at the quarrel that is not his.”C) Well, if you study history, you'll find there were massive changes a couple hundred years after Christ, changes in attitude, beliefs, etc. Things that were once completely shunned were suddenly ok. And yes, politics was one of them, among many.
ON second thought, regarding B, I think they came to appreciate that subjection to the governments is RELATIVE. They knew they were supposed to obey the law and that governments were allowed to rule because God allowed them. Although the following doesn't show the change of thought, it does highlight the scriptures involved:
What Makes a Good Citizen?
AFTER World War II, many people in Europe and Japan who considered themselves to be good, law-abiding citizens found themselves tried and convicted for war crimes. Among them were high-ranking military officials, scientists, and other professionals. In an effort to justify their actions, some of these criminals explained that they were simply obeying orders, as would be expected of any good citizen. Their self-proclaimed good citizenship, however, led them to commit terrible crimes against humanity.
On the other hand, there are those who disregard the authority of the State. Some openly reject governmental authority, while others are ready to break the law as long as there is little danger of getting caught. Of course, few would deny that there is need for obedience to authority, for without it there would be anarchy and chaos. However, the question is, How far should the discharge of civic duty and obedience to law go? Consider some basic principles that helped the first-century Christians to have a balanced view of their responsibilities to the State.
Christian Subjection to the Authorities
First-century Christians willingly submitted to the laws and regulations of those who were “superior authorities”—that is, the ruling powers of the day. (Romans 13:1) Christians believed it was right “to be in subjection and be obedient to governments and authorities as rulers.” (Titus 3:1) Although they recognized Christ as their heavenly King, they were also law-abiding subjects of their human rulers and posed no threat to the security of the State. In fact, they were encouraged to “have honor for the king” at all times. (1 Peter 2:17) The apostle Paul even encouraged Christians: “I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men, concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness.”—1 Timothy 2:1, 2.
First-century Christians conscientiously paid whatever taxes were demanded of them, even though at times this was an onerous burden. They followed the inspired direction given by the apostle Paul on this matter: “Render to all their dues, to him who calls for the tax, the tax.” (Romans 13:7) In the view of Jesus’ disciples, the Roman government and its officers were ruling by God’s permission and in a sense were serving as “God’s public servants,” in that they provided a measure of peace and stability in society.—Romans 13:6.
“Ready for Every Good Work”
First-century Christians were encouraged to accept civic duties imposed by the State. Jesus Christ himself advised his disciples to be willing at times to do even more than the minimum demanded by the civil authorities. “If someone under authority impresses you into service for a mile,” he said, “go with him two miles.” (Matthew 5:41) In following this advice, Christians showed that they did not wish to take the benefits of living in a civilized society without giving something in return. They were always “ready for every good work.”—Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 2:13-16.
They genuinely loved their neighbors and looked for ways to help them. (Matthew 22:39) Because of this love and their adherence to high moral standards, the first-century Christians were a force for good in their community. Their neighbors had ample reason to be delighted about living next door to a Christian. (Romans 13:8-10) Christians demonstrated their love by more than simply abstaining from badness. They were encouraged to be outgoing and active in the interests of others, to “work what is good [not simply toward fellow believers but] toward all,” just as Jesus Christ had.—Galatians 6:10.
“Obey God as Ruler Rather Than Men”
There were, however, limits to their obedience to secular authorities. They would not do anything that would violate their conscience or damage their relationship with God. For example, when the religious authorities in Jerusalem ordered the apostles to stop preaching about Jesus, they refused to comply. “We must obey God as ruler rather than men,” they declared. (Acts 5:27-29) Christians steadfastly refused to get involved in idolatrous emperor worship. (1 Corinthians 10:14; 1 John 5:21; Revelation 19:10) With what results? “Condemnations followed,” says historian J. M. Roberts, “not for being Christian, but for refusing to do something the law commanded.”—Shorter History of the World.
Why in this instance did they ‘refuse to do something the law commanded’? They recognized that “the superior authorities” wielded power by God’s permission and thus served as “God’s minister” in maintaining law and order. (Romans 13:1, 4) But Christians still viewed God’s law as superior. They remembered that Jesus Christ had established this balancing principle for those who would be his followers: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” (Matthew 22:21) Their obligations to God had to take precedence over Caesar’s demands.So, obey the laws of the land as best you possibly can, unless they go counter to God's laws. This idea of relative subjection, along with the many scriptures I listed above, I believe are what changed their minds about going to war.
“(11)ED, IF THE BIBLE SAYS THAT THE RULERS OF THIS SYSTEM OF THINGS ARE TO COME TO NOTHING, WHY BE ONE OF THEM?”
“11) Good question.”–Ed.
Ed, would you want to be one of those rulers? Further, would any Christian? What do you think jesus meant by himself and his followers being “no part of the world?
Quote Taking a stand for God is not joining with Satan's ruler-ship (as you put it).
If Satan has control over all the kingdoms of the world and their glory (Mat 4) and God has said he will destroy all these kingdom (governments; dan 2:44), why be a part of or sponcer what God has said he will destroy?Ed, if YOU pray for God's kingdom, why would you at the same time promote other kingdoms?
“You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?” (1 cor 10:21,22)
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”How does a Christian preach and teach about the kingdom of God to people and at the same time promote and sponcer human governments?
Quote “and they go forth to the KINGS of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” (Rev) (13)ED, WOULD YOU WANT TO BE ONE OF THOSE KINGS WHO WILL BE AT WAR WITH GOD?
Ed, you did not really answer my question at all. You said:
“See Isaiah 27:4-5 and Isaiah 54:17 for my position in this war.”
I read those scriptures. I thought my question was a yes or no question. If it isn't, perhaps you could explain.Quote 7) Who says those you cite were early Christians? Ed, I never said that those I was quoting from were “early Christians.” I was providing you some quotes about the fact that the earliest Christians did not engage in politics. (Jesus included. He ran away when they tried to make him king, right?)
If Constantine is your only evidence against this fact:
1. he was quite a ways from early Christianity, both in time, and in actions.
2. Do Christians also worship the sun? Do they wait decades to get baptized?Anyway, I wasn't saying those I was citing were Christians themselves. Rather, they were speaking to the fact that early Christians avoided politics.
Quote 10 A) Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world,
nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (1 Cor 2:6)You seem to be making a point about the fact that they are called “princes” I guess. If I remember my greek, “prince” means the same as “leader” or “ruler.” I just checked. That is correct. Anyway, even if you use this translation, how would you apply that to today?
How many princes live in the world today? Even if you really wanted it to be princes, if you want to make application today, by extension, you would have to understand it to be rulers.The point again, the rulers of this world come to nothing. Does God want this for Christians?
Quote (david @ Sep. 16 2011,16:44) ON second thought, regarding B, I think they came to appreciate that subjection to the governments is RELATIVE. They knew they were supposed to obey the law and that governments were allowed to rule because God allowed them. Although the following doesn't show the change of thought, it does highlight the scriptures involved: What Makes a Good Citizen?
AFTER World War II, many people in Europe and Japan who considered themselves to be good, law-abiding citizens found themselves tried and convicted for war crimes. Among them were high-ranking military officials, scientists, and other professionals. In an effort to justify their actions, some of these criminals explained that they were simply obeying orders, as would be expected of any good citizen. Their self-proclaimed good citizenship, however, led them to commit terrible crimes against humanity.
On the other hand, there are those who disregard the authority of the State. Some openly reject governmental authority, while others are ready to break the law as long as there is little danger of getting caught. Of course, few would deny that there is need for obedience to authority, for without it there would be anarchy and chaos. However, the question is, How far should the discharge of civic duty and obedience to law go? Consider some basic principles that helped the first-century Christians to have a balanced view of their responsibilities to the State.
Christian Subjection to the Authorities
First-century Christians willingly submitted to the laws and regulations of those who were “superior authorities”—that is, the ruling powers of the day. (Romans 13:1) Christians believed it was right “to be in subjection and be obedient to governments and authorities as rulers.” (Titus 3:1) Although they recognized Christ as their heavenly King, they were also law-abiding subjects of their human rulers and posed no threat to the security of the State. In fact, they were encouraged to “have honor for the king” at all times. (1 Peter 2:17) The apostle Paul even encouraged Christians: “I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men, concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness.”—1 Timothy 2:1, 2.
First-century Christians conscientiously paid whatever taxes were demanded of them, even though at times this was an onerous burden. They followed the inspired direction given by the apostle Paul on this matter: “Render to all their dues, to him who calls for the tax, the tax.” (Romans 13:7) In the view of Jesus’ disciples, the Roman government and its officers were ruling by God’s permission and in a sense were serving as “God’s public servants,” in that they provided a measure of peace and stability in society.—Romans 13:6.
“Ready for Every Good Work”
First-century Christians were encouraged to accept civic duties imposed by the State. Jesus Christ himself advised his disciples to be willing at times to do even more than the minimum demanded by the civil authorities. “If someone under authority impresses you into service for a mile,” he said, “go with him two miles.” (Matthew 5:41) In following this advice, Christians showed that they did not wish to take the benefits of living in a civilized society without giving something in return. They were always “ready for every good work.”—Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 2:13-16.
They genuinely loved their neighbors and looked for ways to help them. (Matthew 22:39) Because of this love and their adherence to high moral standards, the first-century Christians were a force for good in their community. Their neighbors had ample reason to be delighted about living next door to a Christian. (Romans 13:8-10) Christians demonstrated their love by more than simply abstaining from badness. They were encouraged to be outgoing and active in the interests of others, to “work what is good [not simply toward fellow believers but] toward all,” just as Jesus Christ had.—Galatians 6:10.
“Obey God as Ruler Rather Than Men”
There were, however, limits to their obedience to secular authorities. They would not do anything that would violate their conscience or damage their relationship with God. For example, when the religious authorities in Jerusalem ordered the apostles to stop preaching about Jesus, they refused to comply. “We must obey God as ruler rather than men,” they declared. (Acts 5:27-29) Christians steadfastly refused to get involved in idolatrous emperor worship. (1 Corinthians 10:14; 1 John 5:21; Revelation 19:10) With what results? “Condemnations followed,” says historian J. M. Roberts, “not for being Christian, but for refusing to do something the law commanded.”—Shorter History of the World.
Why in this instance did they ‘refuse to do something the law commanded’? They recognized that “the superior authorities” wielded power by God’s permission and thus served as “God’s minister” in maintaining law and order. (Romans 13:1, 4) But Christians still viewed God’s law as superior. They remembered that Jesus Christ had established this balancing principle for those who would be his followers: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” (Matthew 22:21) Their obligations to God had to take precedence over Caesar’s demands.So, obey the laws of the land as best you possibly can, unless they go counter to God's laws. This idea of relative subjection, along with the many scriptures I listed above, I believe are what changed their minds about going to war.
Hi David,Going to war or not going to war is NOT what I wish to discuss.
(We are already in agreement on this point)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Sep. 16 2011,16:57) Quote “and they go forth to the KINGS of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” (Rev) (13)ED, WOULD YOU WANT TO BE ONE OF THOSE KINGS WHO WILL BE AT WAR WITH GOD?
Ed, you did not really answer my question at all. You said:
“See Isaiah 27:4-5 and Isaiah 54:17 for my position in this war.”
I read those scriptures. I thought my question was a yes or no question. If it isn't, perhaps you could explain.
Hi David,It is merely the “FAULTY WORDING” of your question.
You obviously meant the word AGAINST rather than with.
Because I(Ed J), with God, will be fighting against those kings.
I hope this clarifies the Scriptural references I gave about my position.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgWhat do JW’s teach? …for those who want straight answers.
Quote (david @ Sep. 16 2011,16:32) Quote A) Was not Constantine a Cristian convert; did he not engage in politics? B) Can you list the Scriptures that led to this belief?
C) Are you inferring that the apostasy was to engage in politics?
D) My point lettered “A” questions this.
First, I would make a distinction :
If a politician becomes a Christian and then gives up politics, it's different from “early Christians engaging in politics.”
I'm not saying no politicians became Christians.Anyway,
A) Yes, he engaged in politics. As for whether he really became a Christian (follower of Christ) here is what JW's say. (I realize now that I can save a lot of time, since you only are asking what JW's believe, I can just quote them:Did He Ever Become a Christian?
Johnson notes: “Constantine never abandoned sun-worship and kept the sun on his coins.” The Catholic Encyclopedia observes: “Constantine showed equal favour to both religions. As pontifex maximus he watched over the heathen worship and protected its rights.” “Constantine never became a Christian,” states the encyclopedia Hidria, adding: “Eusebius of Caesarea, who wrote his biography, says that he became a Christian in the last moments of his life. This doesn’t hold water, as the day before, [Constantine] had made a sacrifice to Zeus because he also had the title Pontifex Maximus.”
Down to the day of his death in 337 C.E., Constantine bore the pagan title of Pontifex Maximus, the supreme head of religious matters. Regarding his baptism, it is reasonable to ask, Was it preceded by genuine repentance and a turning around, as required in the Scriptures? (Acts 2:38, 40, 41) Was it a complete water immersion as a symbol of Constantine’s dedication to Jehovah God?—Compare Acts 8:36-39.Constantine’s Conversion—To What?
THE claimed conversion of Roman emperor Constantine has long interested students of religion. According to his own account, on the eve of a battle in 312 C.E., which he won, the pagan Constantine saw a vision of a cross with the motto: “In this [sign] conquer.” He was “converted” shortly thereafter (in 313 C.E.) and brought an end to the persecution of Christians in the Roman empire. Constantine encouraged the then current form of Christianity as a State religion, and even intervened in internal church disputes. However, he also committed acts that called into question the genuineness of his conversion and was not baptized until just before his death some 24 years later.
In an article in Bible Review, numismatist and doctoral student of theology Stanley A. Hudson revealed how the coinage struck during Constantine’s reign contributes some fascinating information on this subject. Up until Constantine’s time, it was common for Roman coins to depict the popular Roman deities. But Hudson reported that after Constantine’s conversion, pagan themes appeared less and less—with one exception. Coins depicting Sol, the sun god—formerly Constantine’s favorite—were minted profusely. Why?
Hudson suggested two possibilities. First, Constantine’s conversion may have been very gradual—despite his dramatic vision. Or Constantine may actually have confused Sol with Jesus. Syncretism (combination of different forms of belief) is not unusual even today. For example, in Latin America, the pre-Columbian goddesses Pacha-Mama and Tonantzin are still worshiped under the name of the Virgin Mary. In the same way, Constantine may have worshiped Sol under the name of Jesus.
Such syncretism would explain why December 25th, ‘the birthday of the unconquered sun,’ was chosen as the day to commemorate the birth of Jesus. It would also help us to see why on a coin minted to commemorate Constantine’s death there is an inscription “DV Constantinus” (“Divine Constantine”). This shows that, despite his conversion and eventual baptism, Constantine was viewed as a god after his death, just like the pagan emperors before him.Constantine became a believer, apparently, yet was only baptised 24 years later, before his death. You have to find that suspect.
B) I don't know which ones exactly. Here are some guesses:
We must make a personal decision following our Bible-trained conscience. (Galatians 6:5) While taking the authority of Caesar into account, we must weigh carefully what he owes to Jehovah. (Psalm 36:9; 116:12-14; Acts 17:28)
A Christian will remember that the mark of a true Christian is love for all his fellow believers, even those who live in other lands or those belonging to other tribes. (John 13:34, 35; 1 Peter 2:17)
Further, he will not forget the Scriptural principles found in texts such as Isaiah 2:2-4; Matthew 26:52; Romans 12:18; 14:19; 2 Corinthians 10:4; and Hebrews 12:14.
LUKE 22:49
“Lord, shall we strike with the sword?”
MATTHEW. 26:52
“Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’” (Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God? Yet, Jesus here indicated that those disciples were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.)
The fact that two swords were available among the disciples on the night of Jesus’ betrayal was not unusual for those times (Lu 22:38), and there is evidence that for Galileans in particular it was not uncommon to carry arms. (See The Jewish War, by F. Josephus, III, 42 [iii, 2].) Jesus’ words at Luke 22:36, “Let the one having no sword sell his outer garment and buy one,” would not indicate that his disciples were about to enter into a hazardous life. Rather, he desired to have a sword available among his followers on that night in order to demonstrate clearly that, though they would come into circumstances that could easily provoke armed resistance, he did not intend to resort to the sword but would give himself up voluntarily in harmony with God’s will. Thus, when Peter did react and try to put up armed resistance, lopping off the ear of Malchus, Jesus ordered him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.” (Mt 26:52; Joh 18:10, 11) Certainly, Peter’s sword and the other one at hand would have availed little against such a large group of armed men, and by trying to use them, they would undoubtedly have ‘perished by the sword.’ (Mt 26:47) More important, such attempted delivery of Jesus would have failed, being completely contrary to Jehovah God’s purpose. (Mt 26:53, 54) As it was, later that day Jesus could plainly state to Pilate: “If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”—Joh 18:36.MATTHEW 26:51-53
“But, look! one of those with Jesus [Peter, John 18:10] reached out his hand and drew his sword and struck the slave of the high priest and took off his ear. Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than twelve legions of angels?”
Peter learned this lesson well, and later reminded Christians:
1 PETER 2:21-23
“In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely. . . .When he was being reviled
, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to the one who judges righteously.”
MATTHEW 22:39
“The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’”
JOHN 15:14,17
“YOU are my friends if YOU do what I am commanding YOU. . . .These things I command YOU, that YOU love one another.”
LUKE 6:27, 28:
“I [Jesus Christ] say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”
JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””
1 JOHN 4:20
“If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen.”
1 JOHN 3:10-12
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother.”
(No Christian can war against another Christian—it would be like a man fighting himself.)
ISAIAH 2:2-4
“It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains . . . And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.” (Individuals out of all nations must personally decide what course they will pursue. Those who have heeded Jehovah’s judgment give evidence that he is their God.)2 CORINTHIANS 10:3,4 (NIV)
“For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.”
2 CORINTHIANS 10:3, 4:
“Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.” (Paul here states that he never resorted to fleshly weapons, such as trickery, high-sounding language, or carnal weapons, to protect the congregation against false teachings.)
MICAH 4:3
“And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”
JOHN 17:6
“They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”
(When the WORLD goes to war, what does a Christian do?)
MATTHEW 5:9
““Happy are the peaceable,” (See 2 Cor 13:11)Roman 12:18; 14:19; heb 12:14
ROMANS 12:17-21
“Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”
ROMANS 13:10
“Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.”
JOHN 6:15
“Jesus, knowing they [the Jews] were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.”
JOHN 18:36 (Jesus told the Roman governor)
“My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”
JAMES 4:4
“Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” (Why is the matter so serious? Because, as 1 John 5:19 says, “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” At John 14:30, Jesus referred to Satan as being “the ruler of the world.” So, no matter what worldly faction a person might support, under whose control would he really come?)
ACTS 4:19
“But in reply Peter and John said to them: “Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to YOU rather than to God, judge for yourselves.”
ACTS 5:29
“In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”
MATTHEW 22:21
“Pay back . . . Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.”
(When Caesar demands what belongs to God, we must acknowledge that God has the prior claim.)
REVELATION 13:10
“If anyone [is meant] for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones.”
GENESIS 1:26
“Let us make man in our image.”
(So to kill a man is to do a most unholy thing. If man is made in God's image, what does it mean to take a life?)
GENESIS 9:6
“Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man.”
(All mankind today are descendants of Noah; hence, this divine law that emphasizes respect for life is binding on all humans who desire God’s approval.)
ROMANS 12:19-21
“Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”
LUKE 21:20-21
““Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Ju·déa begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her;”
(In those days, Jewish factions were fighting one another, both verbally and by shedding blood. But Jesus’ disciples did not get mixed up in those revolutionary campaigns. For some 30 years they waited in Jerusalem. Then they obeyed Jesus’ prophetic sign by “fleeing to the mountains.” Their neutral stance and their flight resulted in their salvation.)
“A slave of the Lord does not need to fight.”–2 Timothy 2:24
(While the context shows that Paul was here referring to verbal fights, the original language word rendered “fight” (ma?khe?sthai) is generally associated with armed or hand-to-hand combat.)
PSALM 2:2
“The kings of earth take their stand And high officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one,”
DANIEL 2:44
““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;”
1 CORINTHIANS 11:3
“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.”
(God is above man.)
JOHN 19:10-11
“Hence Pilate said to him: “Are you not speaking to me? Do you not know I have authority to release
you and I have authority to impale you?” Jesus answered him: “You would have no authority at all against me unless it had been granted to you from above. This is why the man that handed me over to you has greater sin.””
TITUS 1:16
“They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.”
ACTS 10:34,35
“God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” (Does God have preferred nations?)
ROMANS 3:22b-23
“For there is no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
(No nation or country is without sin. With human wars, it’s not a matter of good verses evil. It’s a matter of sinful verses more sinful.)
2 PETER 3:9
“JEHOVAH is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but DESIRES ALL TO ATTAIN TO REPENTANCE.”
(Notice what Jehovah wants. And how will they do this if they are dead?)
MATTHEW 5:43-48
““YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.”
(We are to be different than the people of the nations. Vs 8)
**
LUKE 10:29,36-37
“But, wanting to prove himself righteous, the man said to Jesus: “Who really is my neighbor?”….”Who of these three seems to you to have made himself neighbor to the man that fell among the robbers?” He said: “The one that acted mercifully toward him.” Jesus then said to him: “Go your way and be doing the same yourself.””
PSALM 46:9
“He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; The wagons he burns in the fire.”
1 PETER 3:11
“let him seek peace and pursue it.”
GALATIANS 5:22,23
“fruitage of [God’s] spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”
ISAIAH 9:6,7
Jesus, is “prince of peace.”Luke 3 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
1 TIMOTHY 1:18
“This mandate I commit to you, child, Timothy, in accord with the predictions that led directly on to you, that by these you may go on waging the fine warfare;”
2 TIMOTHY 2:3
“As a fine soldier of Christ Jesus take your part in suffering evil.”
ACTS 17:26-28
“[God] made out of one man every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of the dwelling of men, for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. For by him we have life and move and exist.” (How different history would have been if mankind in general had taken note of Paul’s words! Today, mankind is riven by nationalism, class distinctions, racial hatreds, and social inequities. Yet, Paul’s words still apply. All of us are descendants of that one man created by God. All of us are, in that sense, brothers and sisters.)
PROVERBS 26:17
“As one grabbing hold of the ears of a dog is anyone passing by that is becoming furious at the quarrel that is not his.”
Hi David,First, let me state for the readers of this thread:
All Scripture posted by Ed J are from the AKJV Bible (unless otherwise stated).
And, likewise all Scripture posted by David are from the JW's N.W.T Bible (unless otherwise stated).A) Was Constantine not the one who orchestrated The Nicene Council?
1) Was not the Nicene Council the first to vote on which holy books were to be considered Canon?
2) Was this not actually part of the process which lead to the final 66 books we have in our finalized Bible?B) The only verses that come the close to: “THOU SHALT NOT TAKE PART IN LOCAL GOVERNMENTS“ are:
1) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,
that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36)
2) When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king,
he departed again into a mountain himself alone. (John 6:15)
3) They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. (John 17:16)I have two questions regarding not being allowed (by your organization) to participate in the political process.
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:
and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces
and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. (Dan 2:44)You stated (in essence) that God is going to destroy all existing Governments.
BUT, according to Daniel 2:44 of the bible, Scripture states that “God's Kingdom”
(which you say is Government) is going consume other Kingdoms (or Governments).
This indicates to me that God's people, rather than God, are the ones bringing this about. <– Do you agree; if not, why not? (See also Rev.11:15)For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Eph.6:12)
Secondly: Just exactly how do we wrestle against these rulers, if not through the political process?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Sep. 16 2011,16:54) “ED, IF THE BIBLE SAYS THAT THE RULERS OF THIS SYSTEM OF THINGS ARE TO COME TO NOTHING, WHY BE ONE OF THEM?” “Good question.”–Ed.
(1)Ed, would you want to be one of those rulers? (2)Further, would any Christian? (3)What do you think jesus meant by himself and his followers being “no part of the world?
Quote Taking a stand for God is not joining with Satan's ruler-ship (as you put it).
If Satan has control over all the kingdoms of the world and their glory (Mat 4) (4)and God has said he will destroy all these kingdom (governments; dan 2:44), why be a part of or sponcer what God has said he will destroy?(5)Ed, if YOU pray for God's kingdom, (6)why would you at the same time promote other kingdoms?
(7)”You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?” (1 cor 10:21,22)
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”(8)How does a Christian preach and teach about the kingdom of God to people and at the same time promote and sponcer human governments?
Hi David,1) No
2) Would you not have to ask all Christians this question to find out?
3) Gal.5:19-21, Col.3:5-6
4) See my last post
5) God's Kingdom came on Pentecost. (Link)
6) No such banana7) Do you consider the words “TABLE OF DEVILS” to actually mean “all local Governments”?
Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table,
and of the table of devils. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? (1Cor.10:21-22)8) promote and sponcer <– Spin …I never said any such thing!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Sep. 16 2011,17:01) Quote 7) Who says those you cite were early Christians? Ed, I never said that those I was quoting from were “early Christians.” I was providing you some quotes (A)about the fact that the earliest Christians did not engage in politics. (B)(Jesus included. He ran away when they tried to make him king, right?)
If Constantine is your only evidence against this fact:
1. he was quite a ways from early Christianity, both in time, and in actions.
2. Do Christians also worship the sun? (3.)Do they wait decades to get baptized?(C)Anyway, I wasn't saying those I was citing were Christians themselves. (D)Rather, they were speaking to the fact that early Christians avoided politics.
Hi David,You criticize others for not providing Scriptural backing,
would you not be a hypocrite if you did not read them when provided?A) I'm still waiting for you to produce those facts; where are they?
B) They tried to make Jesus their 'MAN KING'. (See 1Samuel 8:6-7)
Who, according to 1Samuel 8:7, is their King?1) What relevance does that have?
2) No.
3) I'm sure some do.C) Great
D) I'm still waiting for you to produce those facts; where are they?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Sep. 16 2011,17:09) Quote Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world,
nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (1 Cor 2:6)(1)You seem to be making a point about the fact that they are called “princes” I guess. If I remember my greek, “prince” means the same as “leader” or “ruler.” I just checked. That is correct. (2)Anyway, even if you use this translation, how would you apply that to today?
(3)How many princes live in the world today? Even if you really wanted it to be princes, if you want to make application today, by extension, you would have to understand it to be rulers.The point again, the rulers of this world come to nothing. (4)Does God want this for Christians?
Hi David,1) NO; the point I was making is the text says: the princes of this world rather than local Governments come to nought.
Do you agree that the princes of this world, rather than local Governments, come to nought is what the text is actually saying? …if not, why not?2) See Prob.11:7
3) How do you define the word “PRINCES” in the context of your question?
4) See Luke 13:3
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Sep. 16 2011,07:42) Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 15 2011,19:21) Hi David. Is it true JWs do not believe in healing?
We don't believe in miraculous healings today. We believe those things were “done away with.” I can discuss this more, but have only a few minutes now.
David I love talking to JWs their my favorite people to talk to always have been.What made them decide that healings had been done away with though?
Quote Hi David, Going to war or not going to war is NOT what I wish to discuss.
(We are already in agreement on this point)I realize that, but often, we we look at history, the historians mention both together. And really, they mention the not going to war thing quite a bit more than not engaging in politics. But, usually when they do mention politics, they also mention war, along with it.
In my mind, they are sort of related.
Quote Hi David, It is merely the “FAULTY WORDING” of your question.
You obviously meant the word AGAINST rather than with.
Because I(Ed J), with God, will be fighting against those kings.
I hope this clarifies the Scriptural references I gave about my position.Sorry, yes I see the ambigousness of my question now. Didn't mean to do that. But I thought based on the scripture, it would be obvious that God is waring against those kings. Is that now how you understand that verse? Ok, I read further, yes, that is how you understand it:
Quote Because I(Ed J), with God, will be fighting against those kings.
Which brings me back to my original question. ED, YOU SEEM TO SEE TWO SIDES HERE: GOD (AND YOU WITH HIM AND OTHERS..) AGAINST THE KINGS OF THE EARTH.
(“and they go forth to the KINGS of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.”)
SO, MY QUESTION IS: WHY WOULD A CHRISTIAN WANT TO BE ON THE OTHER SIDE?_A) Sure, Constantine planned it, but why? Like any ruler, he wanted unity, and not division. I don't think I'm the only one on here who thinks these things about Constantine. I'm sure I've seen many postings before that expressed similar ideas.
Quote 1) Was not the Nicene Council the first to vote on which holy books were to be considered Canon?
2) Was this not actually part of the process which lead to the final 66 books we have in our finalized Bible?And your point? (I have contention with both of these points, but that's another discussion, and we are getting further and further away from the actual topic.)
Quote B) The only verses that come the close to: “THOU SHALT NOT TAKE PART IN LOCAL GOVERNMENTS” are:
1) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,
that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36)
2) When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king,
he departed again into a mountain himself alone. (John 6:15)
3) They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. (John 17:16)
For some reason, I had originally thought your question was about going to war. Sorry.But since you were able to find Bible principles among those other scriptures that YOU see as having some relevance, my question to you is: Why do you dismiss them? Remember, you are the one who found them. (Those 50 scriptures or how ever many, you are right, they weren't specifically about government, but rather going to war. And yet, you found relevance in a few of the scriptures. How interesting. And, again: Why do you dismiss them, especially given that you are the one who found them as having relevance?___)
Quote I have two questions regarding not being allowed (by your organization) to participate in the political process.
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:
and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces
and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. (Dan 2:44)You stated (in essence) that God is going to destroy all existing Governments.
BUT, according to Daniel 2:44 of the bible, Scripture states that “God's Kingdom”
(which you say is Government) is going consume other Kingdoms (or Governments).
This indicates to me that God's people, rather than God, are the ones bringing this about. <– Do you agree; if not, why not? (See also Rev.11:15)I find that with us, and maybe with others, we attribute things to God that God isn't specifically doing himself, but that he has appointed to others. Given that he is the one with the authority and it is his purpose being carried out, and that it is often called the “kingdom of God” even though God himself has appointed Jesus to take the lead in doing this work, maybe I said “God” will do it. Although, you didn't quote me, but I'm sure I might have. The Bible says that “God” has set up a kingdom that will do those things. (dan 2:44) So again, we can say that God is behind it, even though he has appointed Jesus to take the lead in this.
Quote For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Eph.6:12)
Secondly: Just exactly how do we wrestle against these rulers, if not through the political process?New International Version (©1984)
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.New Living Translation (©2007)
For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.English Standard Version (©2001)
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.International Standard Version (©2008)
For our struggle is not against human opponents, but against rulers, authorities, cosmic powers in the darkness around us, and evil spiritual forces in the heavenly realm.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
This is not a wrestling match against a human opponent. We are wrestling with rulers, authorities, the powers who govern this world of darkness, and spiritual forces that control evil in the heavenly world.I guess
we see this verse differently. First, it obviously says that our enemy, or the ones we are fighting are not human. “But” instead, against “evil spirits in heavenly places.”That is our enemy, as far as I can tell. It begins by saying our enemies aren't flesh and blood (human.) You can try to argue and say there is a list of several different things, including the evil spirits, BUT, that verse begins by saying our enemies aren't human, Rather, they are the rulers and authorities of this world, the evil spirits. (And before you ask, we know the Devil is called the ruler of this world, and he has the kingdoms of the world that he tempted Jesus with and there are many more scriptures I could provide. But anyway, that's how JW view it.)
SO, you ask: “Just exactly how do we wrestle against these rulers, if not through the political process?” Well, I ask, how does one wrestle against ones who are not flesh and blood? The political process? Is that how one would defeat Satan, for example?
“ED, IF THE BIBLE SAYS THAT THE RULERS OF THIS SYSTEM OF THINGS ARE TO COME TO NOTHING, WHY BE ONE OF THEM?….Ed, would you want to be one of those rulers?”
Your answer: “No.”
Ed, do you think it's wrong for a Christian to take that same stand?_ JW's don't want to be any part of the world under Satan's control. Jesus said his followers would be “no part of the world.” To take a lead in ruling or governing that world, seems like you are putting yourself on the wrong side of the fight.
Ed, if someone is “no part of the world,” (as Christians are to be) would they be involved in the affairs of the world, in the administration and ruling of the world? _I want to go back to Eph 6:11,12 for a second.
Again, here is how JW understand it:
“We originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”–1 John 5:19
Shortly after his baptism, Jesus was “tempted by the Devil.” Citing one of the temptations, the Bible says: “The Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.” (Matthew 4:1,8) Satan then told Jesus: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it. You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.””–Luke 4:6,7
Satan “tempted” Jesus by offering him “all the kingdoms of the world.” Yet, would Satan’s offer have been a real temptation if Satan was not actually the ruler of these kingdoms? And note, Jesus did not deny tat all these worldy governments were Satan’s, which he would have done if Satan did not have power over them.–Matthew 4:1,8-10
In fact, on another occasion Jesus confirmed that Satan truly is the ruler of the kingdoms of this world. He said: “the ruler of this world will be cast out.” And he added: “the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me.” And, “the ruler of this world has been judged.”–John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11The Devil is the ruler of the world. But, he is not alone in his rulership. “Stand firm against the machinations of the Devil; because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.”–Ephesians 6:11,12
Ed, do you think the devil having control of the all the kingdoms of the world, and the ability to give that authority away, him being the “ruler of the world” is in any way connected with the idea that Christians are to be “no part of the world?”
Quote 8) promote and sponcer <– Spin …I never said any such thing!
My question was:
(8)How does a Christian preach and teach about the kingdom of God to people and at the same time promote and sponcer human governments?
Ed, if someone decides to be a part of human government, they run for some office, are they not sponsering that position. To sponser is: raise awareness of the brand; build an image; promote a new product. Promote is very similar. Anyone that decides to take part in human government, is sponsoring human government. Their very actions say they approve of the position.Quote 7) Do you consider the words “TABLE OF DEVILS” to actually mean “all local Governments”? No, I don't consider it to mean that. But by extension, would it not apply? There is God's kingdom. And there are all other kingdoms–the ones God's kingdom will destroy. God's kingdom is ruled by Jesus. Satan has “authority” over “all the kingdoms of the world. (Luke 4) Ed, can you choose both sides?__
Quote You criticize others for not providing Scriptural backing,
would you not be a hypocrite if you did not read them when provided?No, I'd be a hypocrite if I did the same. It would however be odd if I didn't. It's also odd that you state this as though it's true, but you don't connect this thought to anything.
Quote A) I'm still waiting for you to produce those facts; where are they? What? You mean the universal fact that the earliest Christians didn't engage in politics? First, it's hard to prove a negative. In the past 2 days, I've found another 50 quotes from historians saying the earliest Christians didn't engage in politics. But, you are right, they could mostly be biased. We need hard evidence. Unfortunately, this does seem to be a case of trying to prove something that isn't there. I can't say “X” didn't engage in politics. (Well, I can say that of Jesus, because he fled human kingship. DOES JESUS COUNT?) But you can say “X” did in fact engage in politics. Since it's so hard to find “x” engaging in politics (other than Constantine hundreds of years later, and no, he wasn't really a Christian anyway) I think this is why historians like to constantly say that they didn't partake in politics.
As for why, all I can say is, perhaps they followed Jesus example. Would that be so bad?__Quote B) They tried to make Jesus their 'MAN KING'. (See 1Samuel 8:6-7)
Who, according to 1Samuel 8:7, is their King?OK, they rejected Jehovah as king. There are a lot of people who, if they were living back then, would have said: “I can fix this. Let me have a try. I will make a good king.” The problem is, the whole entire system is messed up and we can't fix it, and God has purposed to destroy this entire system of governments. So, why be a part of it? Why not be “no part of” it?
And, you didn't actually address the fact that Jesus, our exemplar refused to take part in human rulership. All you said was that Jehovah was rejected. And?Quote 1) What relevance does that have? What relevence that has is we are talking about “early Christianity.” Paul said that after his “going away” apostasy would develop. Peter, Paul, Jesus, spoke of the apostasy. It was already beginning in the time of Peter, and Paul even.
“Celsus [second-century opponent of Christianity] himself had sarcastically observed that Christians were ‘split up into ever so many factions, each individual desiring to have his own party.’ About 187 [C.E.] Irenaeus listed twenty varieties of Christianity; about 384 [C.E.] Epiphanius counted eighty.”—The Story of Civilization: Part III—Caesar and Christ.)
So, who really cares if Constantine, hundreds of years later, became part of apostasized Christianity? Probably by then, they changed many things, including the importance of baptism as a symbol of dedication, because apparently, Constantine didn't feel it that important and left it for decades, until his death. If you look at beliefs, you will find that 100 and 200 years after Jesus and the apostles, things began changing rather dramatically.
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 16 2011,21:05) Quote (david @ Sep. 16 2011,17:09) Quote Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world,
nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (1 Cor 2:6)(1)You seem to be making a point about the fact that they are called “princes” I guess. If I remember my greek, “prince” means the same as “leader” or “ruler.” I just checked. That is correct. (2)Anyway, even if you use this translation, how would you apply that to today?
(3)How many princes live in the world today? Even if you really wanted it to be princes, if you want to make application today, by extension, you would have to understand it to be rulers.The point again, the rulers of this world come to nothing. (4)Does God want this for Christians?
Hi David,1) NO; the point I was making is the text says: the princes of this world rather than local Governments come to nought.
Do you agree that the princes of this world, rather than local Governments, come to nought is what the text is actually saying? …if not, why not?2) See Prob.11:7
3) How do you define the word “PRINCES” in the context of your question?
4) See Luke 13:3
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
This scriptures is speaking of rulers/princes. Same word I think. If this scripture is to be applied to today, we should understand it to mean 'rulers.'And my point is, why be one of the rulers of the world if the rulers of the world come to nought? And, if your point is that it doesn't say “government” then what of the scriptures that say the governments come to nothing?
Either way: God's kingdom will destroy human governments.
Human rulers will come to nothing.Both will happen. So, why be a engaged in politics? It seems a bad move. It seems the wrong side, when we consider which side God is on.
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