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What do JW’s teach? …for those who want straight answers.
I have heard David say over and over again: “that is not the topic of this thread”;
So that will be the topic of this thread! This thread puts David on the Hot Seat.This thread is open to all.
The JW organization teaches its members that their organization (according to them) is God’s Government on Earth.
This thread is for David to answer our many questions of what exactly his organization teaches its members.For example: they teach their members not to participate in ANY local Government,
yet they believe their organization is going to replace all existing Governments.
Just exactly how does your organization teach this will happen; David?I also have many more questions as I’m sure others do; so this thread
is open to all who want straight answers from our resident JW.
This thread is to ask David questions you want answered
with regard to David's visible organization, the JW's.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org …(Eccl.9:12-16)JW's do not see being born again as applicable to Christians/Believers with the exception of 144,000.
So they believe that they cannot receive the spirit and be born from above, but will be flesh being on Earth forever.
Perhaps this is why they do not understand the Kingdom of God can be in them if that interpretation is correct.
They see the kingdom like the kingdoms of this world exist except with the exception of a different king.
They also see themselves as being part of that government and no one else.
They are an exclusive club which is the extreme or end result of being a denomination.I myself think denominations are of the enemy, designed to split the body of Christ into smaller parts that do not work together. It is an attack on the body.
Part of the mission of this site is to highlight this and to bring unity in truth in the only name under heaven and Earth that men can be saved. Not the name of Watchtower, RCC, or any other denomination and exclusive club/cult.
David you are free to contest what I am saying. But your mission here to is to promote JW ideology and organisation. When our mission should be to promote God, his Christ, and the body of Christ as the agent that Christ works through.
The JW believe that Jesus did preexisted…. It was one of their members that used to come to our House and made us aware of John 1 being the beginning of the creation of Jesus the Word of God…. It took us several weeks to come to that understanding how right they are in that doctrine…..
We also had a conversation about the 144,000. What they don't see that a multitude stands in front of the Throne who have washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb….Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?”
Rev 7:14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence
They also accused me of not worshiping Almighty God and Father of all…. I set them straight….
Georg had several conversation about the Nation of Israel… They believe that God is done with Israel, which Georg does not believe….these Scriptures proof God is not done with Israel
Amo 9:8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from the surface of the ground, except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob,” declares the LORD.
Jer 30:3 For behold, days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will restore the fortunes of my people, Israel and Judah, says the LORD, and I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall take possession of it.”
Jer 33:14 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
They however gone through bad times, especially the time of Hitler….. But then so did some German who went against Him….
Peace IreneQuote I have heard David say over and over again: “that is not the topic of this thread”;
So that will be the topic of this thread! This thread puts David on the Hot Seat.The reason I say that Ed is because you, almost more than anyone, like to attack JW's when they are not the topic.
I don't know why, but there are way more threads on JW on here than any other religion, I'd say. And more threads on the NWT than any other bible.
I didn't start any of those threads. I have not been promoting JW's on this forum and never bring it up. I simply like to discuss the bible and what it teaches. If I had ever done that, I can see how you would think I would be on a hot seat.
This is however the most broadly based jw thread. It feels like people are just going to be skipping around, which makes it hard–having ten conversations at once.
If you want to know: what do jw teach, I suggest visiting their website.
Your first comment is of course false, as I'm pretty sure everyone else here understands. I think you are confusing us with the catholic church.
And you are also wrong about jw believing the organization will replace all existing governments. They Don't believe that. They believe gods kingdom will. Read Dan 2:44
David
Ps: I've stated on here many times that my reason for being here wasn't to promote jw's. I don't even mention the words “jw” unless someone like Ed does something like this. I discuss the bible. I promote the bible, and promote what it says.If you wanted to know what jw's teach the best way would be for me to start the thread and actually say what is believed. Having random people who don't actually know what they believe make postings will only act as disinformation.
T8, you say my “mission” here is to promote “jw ideology.”. I think you'd have a hard time proving that. I have used the words “jw” more in this post than in the past 4 years. It's true. Go check. I just like discussing the bible with people. You'll also find if you check, the only time since I've begun on here, that I even speak about Jehovah's witnesses is when someone like Ed is asking about them.
Its simply not true that my mission on here is to promote jw's.I'm going to start with Ed's comment, and I'd like to stay on this comment for a while:
Quote For example: they teach their members not to participate in ANY local Government,
yet they believe their organization is going to replace all existing Governments.
Just exactly how does your organization teach this will happen; David?First, no one believes that “their organization” is going to replace all existing Governments. God's kingdom will do that. (Dan 2:44)
It is true that JW's believe they should stay out of politics/government.
While the Bible says human government has it's place and has been authorized by God for our good and that we should follow the law of the land and pay caesar his due, all human governments have proven incompetent to solve any of mankind's problems. They can not bring peace or save people. I personally believe the US government is a huge ponzi scheme, but that's another topic.
JW's believe the last several thousand years have been an experiment in HUMAN RULE, and it has been a failure. All this to show that we need God and GOD RULE. Today, we pray for God's kingdom to come and that kingdom will destroy human governments (Dan 2:44) We don't want to find ourself promoting or sponsoring something God has purposed to destroy.And neither did the FIRST CHRISTIANS:
“Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. . . . The Christians . . . felt it a violation of their faith to enter military service. They would not hold political office. They would not worship the emperor.”
–On the Road to Civilization—A World History, A. K. Heckel and J. G. Sigman, 1937, pp. 237-8“The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, . . . and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state.”
–The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168“While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416.
“The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.”
–“Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” by F. P. G. Guizot in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246)Speaking of the early Christians, the book World History, The Story of Man’s Achievements says: “Zealous Christians did not serve in the armed forces or accept political offices.”
Church historian Augustus Neander reported that “the Christians were represented as men dead to the world, and useless for all affairs of life; . . . and it was asked, what would become of the business of life, if all were like them?”
Were the earliest Christians correct in their view of politics, or where those who came later correct?
Given all that was said of an apostasy, a falling away from true worship, I'd go with the earliest Christians any day.
1 CORINTHIANS 2:6
“Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing.”
1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”If the Bible says THE RULERS OF THIS SYSTEM OF THINGS ARE TO COME TO NOTHING, why be one of them? God is going to bring to nothing ALL GOVERNMENT. Why be a part of something God is set to destroy? (Dan 2:44)
Please answer these questions Ed.
“and they go forth to the KINGS of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” (Rev)
[LOOK UP AND READ: JOHN 6:15]
Notice that Jesus decisively rejected this offer of political leadership.
Our exemplar refused involvement in political matters.We can also note Jesus words, at: [JOHN 17:14-16]
If someone is “no part of the world,” (as Christians are to be) would they be involved in the affairs of the world, in the administration and ruling of the world? NO.
Furthermore, notice that we are also warned of the “wicked one” in this verse.
In John 16:11, which is just back a page, we see that Satan is described as the “ruler of this world” who has been judged.
If Satan is the ruler of the world, why would a Christian want to take part or join in that rulership?Please answer those questions Ed.
Jesus followers are subjects of that kingdom, which also makes them no part of the world and keeps them out of politics.
As Jesus followers, Christians pray for God’s government, his kingdom. They tell others the good news about this government, and all it will accomplish. (Mat 24:14)
Instead looking to human governments to solve the world’s problems, Christians look to God’s kingdom as the ultimate solution to mankind’s problems–hence, they do not engage in politics.
david.
Quote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,10:31)
The reason I say that Ed is because you, almost more than anyone, like to attack JW's when they are not the topic.
Hi David,Do you consider asking questions an attack of some kind?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,10:31)
1) Your first comment is of course false, as I'm pretty sure everyone else here understands. I think you are confusing us with the catholic church.2) And you are also wrong about jw believing the organization will replace all existing governments. They Don't believe that.
Hi David,1) Does your organization teach it's members that it is OK to run for political office (Like Mayor for example)?
2) No? …does your organization teach its members that it (your organization) is God's Government?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2011,11:05) Quote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,10:31)
The reason I say that Ed is because you, almost more than anyone, like to attack JW's when they are not the topic.
Hi David,Do you consider asking questions an attack of some kind?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Not at all ed. I used questions all the time myself, as I did in that last post.When they are repeatedly off topic, I would consider it harassment, as I understand the term.
For example, you won't find me bringing up the numbers thing repeatedly in this thread, or even ever. But if I did mention it every time I posted, how would you view that Ed? An attack? Harassment of some sort? Annoying? Some sort of Straw man Red herring type thing? I don't know. How would you see that?
david
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2011,11:13) Quote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,10:31)
1) Your first comment is of course false, as I'm pretty sure everyone else here understands. I think you are confusing us with the catholic church.2) And you are also wrong about jw believing the organization will replace all existing governments. They Don't believe that.
Hi David,1) Does your organization teach it's members that it is OK to run for political office (Like Mayor for example)?
2) No? …does your organization teach its members that it (your organization) is God's Government?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed, are we going to have a discussion here? Why don't you answer my questions first and I'll answer yours.Does that sound good?
Something I should have added to my large post:
SATAN IS THE GOD OF THIS WORLD
Over this world of unrighteous human society and its kingdoms, God’s Adversary, Satan the Devil, exercises rulership; in fact, he has made himself “the god” of such world. (Mt 4:8, 9; Joh 12:31; 14:30; 16:11; compare 2Co 4:4.)THE WHOLE WORLD IS LYING IN SATAN’S POWER
God did not produce such unrighteous world; it owes its development to his chief Opposer, in whose power “the whole world is lying.” (1Jo 4:4, 5; 5:18, 19)SATAN AND DEMONS ARE THE WORLD RULERS
Satan and his “wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places” act as the invisible “world rulers [or, cosmocrats; Gr., ko·smo·kráto·ras]” over the world alienated from God.—Eph 6:11, 12.So Jesus would not be a part of this wicked world ruled by Satan. He would be “not of the world,” or “no part of the world.” And his followers were to remain separate or not belonging to the world and it’s wicked ways either, like Jesus. (See quotes on early Christians)
Hence, with great frequency, kósmos (world) is used to signify all non-Christian human society. This is the world that hated Jesus and his followers because they bore witness concerning its unrighteousness and because they maintained separateness from it; such world thereby showed hatred for Jehovah God himself and did not come to know him. (Joh 7:7; 15:17-25; 16:19, 20; 17:14, 25; 1Jo 3:1, 13)
What do JW’s teach? …for those who want straight answers.
Quote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,10:54) I'm going to start with Ed's comment, and I'd like to stay on this comment for a while: Quote For example: they teach their members not to participate in ANY local Government,
yet they believe their organization is going to replace all existing Governments.
Just exactly how does your organization teach this will happen; David?Quote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,10:31) Your first comment is of course false, as I'm pretty sure everyone else here understands. It is true that JW's believe they should stay out of politics/government.
Hi David,
First you say: “Your first comment is of course false”,
and then you say: “It is true that JW's believe they should stay out of politics/government.”Does your second comment not make your first comment …“Your first comment is of course false”… a false truth?
Your second comment proves my first comment …“It is true that JW's believe they should stay out of politics/government.”… to be true; right?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,10:54) I'm going to start with Ed's comment, and I'd like to stay on this comment for a while: Quote For example: they teach their members not to participate in ANY local Government,
yet they believe their organization is going to replace all existing Governments.
Just exactly how does your organization teach this will happen; David?First, no one believes that “their organization” is going to replace all existing Governments. God's kingdom will do that. (Dan 2:44)
It is true that JW's believe they should stay out of politics/government.
While the Bible says human government has it's place and has been authorized by God for our good and that we should follow the law of the land and pay caesar his due, all human governments have proven incompetent to solve any of mankind's problems. They can not bring peace or save people. I personally believe the US government is a huge ponzi scheme, but that's another topic.
JW's believe the last several thousand years have been an experiment in HUMAN RULE, and it has been a failure. All this to show that we need God and GOD RULE. Today, we pray for God's kingdom to come and that kingdom will destroy human governments (Dan 2:44) We don't want to find ourself promoting or sponsoring something God has purposed to destroy.And neither did the FIRST CHRISTIANS:
“Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. . . . The Christians . . . felt it a violation of their faith to enter military service. They would not hold political office. They would not worship the emperor.”
–On the Road to Civilization—A World History, A. K. Heckel and J. G. Sigman, 1937, pp. 237-8“The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, . . . and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state.”
–The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168“While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416.
“The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.”
–“Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” by F. P. G. Guizot in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246)Speaking of the early Christians, the book World History, The Story of Man’s Achievements says: “Zealous Christians did not serve in the armed forces or accept political offices.”
Church historian Augustus Neander reported that “the Christians were represented as men dead to the world, and useless for all affairs of life; . . . and it was asked, what would become of the business of life, if all were like them?”
Were the earliest Christians correct in their view of politics, or where those who came later correct?
Given all that was said of an apostasy, a falling away from true worship, I'd go with the earliest Christians any day.
1 CORINTHIANS 2:6
“Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing.”
1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”If the Bible says THE RULERS OF THIS SYSTEM OF THINGS ARE TO COME TO NOTHING, why be one of them? God is going to bring to nothing ALL GOVERNMENT. Why be a part of something God is set to destroy? (Dan 2:44)
Please answer these questions Ed.
“and they go forth to the KINGS of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” (Rev)
[LOOK UP AND READ: JOHN 6:15]
Notice that Jesus decisively rejected this offer of political leadership.
Our exemplar refused involvement in political matters.We can also note Jesus words, at: [JOHN 17:14-16]
If someone is “no part of the world,” (as Christians are to be) would they be involved in the affairs of the world, in the administration and ruling of the world? NO.
Furthermore, notice that we are also warned of the “wicked one” in this verse.
In John 16:11, which is just back a page, we see that Satan is described as the “ruler of this world” who has been judged.
If Satan is the ruler of the world, why would a Christian want to take part or join in that rulership?Please answer those questions Ed.
Jesus followers are subjects of that kingdom, which also makes them no part of the world and keeps them out of politics.
As Jesus followers, Christians pray for God’s government, his kingdom. They tell others the good news about this government, and all it will accomplish. (Mat 24:14)
Instead looking to human governments to solve the world’s problems, Christians look to God’s kingdom as the ultimate solution to mankind’s problems–hence, they do not engage in politics.
david.
Hi David,Could you highlight the questions that you want me to address?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgThe JWs are an exlusive club with exclusive doctrines just like many other organisations.
They are no different to the Mormons, RCC, Seventh Day Adventists, etc.
While they have a number of doctrines and beliefs that I agree with, such as God is the Father alone, so do other organisations have doctrines and beliefs I agree with such as the RCC, Seventh Day Adventists Christadelphian, etc.Each these organisations have their own presidents, authority, and name.
Myself personally, I believe the true Church is the Body of Christ, while people who belong to these organisations believe their Church is the only true one, or at least, the one whom God uses primarily.This happens because men are carnal and only when you are born in the spirit and then in turn led by the spirit, are you able to see these organisations for what they are.
In other words, you need to taste the real thing in order to distinguish the fake, otherwise you know no better.But if you are not born from above, then you have no guidance in your spirit and you only have head knowledge, hence your allegiance to these organisations are always based on being convinced of their doctrines in your head.
Quote This thread is open to all. The JW organization teaches its members that their organization (according to them) is God’s Government on Earth.
This thread is for David to answer our many questions of what exactly his organization teaches its members.For example: they teach their members not to participate in ANY local Government,
yet they believe their organization is going to replace all existing Governments.
Just exactly how does your organization teach this will happen; David?–Ed.
Sorry, Ed, I meant your actual first comment about JW, and not what i quoted. (I wasn't using my actual computer when I made that first post.) I underlined it for clarity here.
So,
Quote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,11:18) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2011,11:13) Quote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,10:31)
1) Your first comment is of course false, as I'm pretty sure everyone else here understands. I think you are confusing us with the catholic church.2) And you are also wrong about jw believing the organization will replace all existing governments. They Don't believe that.
Hi David,1) Does your organization teach it's members that it is OK to run for political office (Like Mayor for example)?
2) No? …does your organization teach its members that it (your organization) is God's Government?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed, are we going to have a discussion here? Why don't you answer my questions first and I'll answer yours.Does that sound good?
Hi David,I had trouble finding your questions, that's why I asked you to highlight them.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2011,11:32) Quote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,10:54) I'm going to start with Ed's comment, and I'd like to stay on this comment for a while: Quote For example: they teach their members not to participate in ANY local Government,
yet they believe their organization is going to replace all existing Governments.
Just exactly how does your organization teach this will happen; David?First, no one believes that “their organization” is going to replace all existing Governments. God's kingdom will do that. (Dan 2:44)
It is true that JW's believe they should stay out of politics/government.
While the Bible says human government has it's place and has been authorized by God for our good and that we should follow the law of the land and pay caesar his due, all human governments have proven incompetent to solve any of mankind's problems. They can not bring peace or save people. I personally believe the US government is a huge ponzi scheme, but that's another topic.
JW's believe the last several thousand years have been an experiment in HUMAN RULE, and it has been a failure. All this to show that we need God and GOD RULE. Today, we pray for God's kingdom to come and that kingdom will destroy human governments (Dan 2:44) We don't want to find ourself promoting or sponsoring something God has purposed to destroy.And neither did the FIRST CHRISTIANS:
“Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. . . . The Christians . . . felt it a violation of their faith to enter military service. They would not hold political office. They would not worship the emperor.”
–On the Road to Civilization—A World History, A. K. Heckel and J. G. Sigman, 1937, pp. 237-8“The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, . . . and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state.”
–The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168“While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416.
“The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.”
–“Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” by F. P. G. Guizot in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246)Speaking of the early Christians, the book World History, The Story of Man’s Achievements says: “Zealous Christians did not serve in the armed forces or accept political offices.”
Church historian Augustus Neander reported that “the Christians were represented as men dead to the world, and useless for all affairs of life; . . . and it was asked, what would become of the business of life, if all were like them?”
ED::::::
Were the earliest Christians correct in their view of politics, or where those who came later correct?Given all that was said of an apostasy, a falling away from true worship, I'd go with the earliest Christians any day.
1 CORINTHIANS 2:6
“Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing.”
1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”ED::::::
If the Bible says THE RULERS OF THIS SYSTEM OF THINGS ARE TO COME TO NOTHING, why be one of them? God is going to bring to nothing ALL GOVERNMENT. Why be a part of something God is set to destroy? (Dan 2:44)Please answer these questions Ed.
“and they go forth to the KINGS of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” (Rev)
[LOOK UP AND READ: JOHN 6:15]
Notice that Jesus decisively rejected this offer of political leadership.
Our exemplar refused involvement in political matters.We can also note Jesus words, at: [JOHN 17:14-16]
If someone is “no part of the world,” (as Christians are to be) would they be involved in the affairs of the world, in the administration and ruling of the world? NO.
ED::::::::
Furthermore, notice that we are also warned of the “wicked one” in this verse.
In John 16:11, which is just back a page, we see that Satan is described as the “ruler of this world” who has been judged.
If Satan is the ruler of the world, why would a Christian want to take part or join in that rulership?Please answer those questions Ed.
Jesus followers are subjects of that kingdom, which also makes them no part of the world and keeps them out of politics.
As Jesus followers, Christians pray for God’s government, his kingdom. They tell others the good news about this government, and all it will accomplish. (Mat 24:14)
Instead looking to human governments to solve the world’s problems, Christians look to God’s kingdom as the ultimate solution to mankind’s problems–hence, they do not engage in politics.
david.
Hi David,Could you highlight the questions that you want me to address?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
ED::::::Quote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,11:33) Quote This thread is open to all. The JW organization teaches its members that their organization (according to them) is God’s Government on Earth.
This thread is for David to answer our many questions of what exactly his organization teaches its members.For example: they teach their members not to participate in ANY local Government,
yet they believe their organization is going to replace all existing Governments.
Just exactly how does your organization teach this will happen; David?–Ed.
Sorry, Ed, I meant your actual first comment about JW, and not what i quoted. (I wasn't using my actual computer when I made that first post.) I underlined it for clarity here.
So,
Hi David,Are you saying that your organization does not teach its members that their organization (according to them) is God’s Government on Earth.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote The JW organization teaches its members that their organization (according to them) is God’s Government on Earth. Maybe I should clarify. JW's believe that the kingdom is a heavenly one made up of Jesus, and his “co-heirs”, the “holy ones,” the “144,000” who have been “bought from the earth.” It is a heavenly kingdom and rules from heaven. They don't believe it's “on Earth.”
However, some of these people “the holy ones” are on earth, and yes, JW's believe that those few that are left of the 144,000, are representatives of that kingdom.
The organisation as a whole is not in any way the kingdom. Jesus, as head, along with the 144,000 joint heirs make up the kingdom.That is what JW's believe. So, they don't support human governments but pray for and look to God's government, his kingdom.
The kingdom is not considered to be on earth. It is a heavenly kingdom. It will rule over those on earth.
Quote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,11:37) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2011,11:32) Quote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,10:54) I'm going to start with Ed's comment, and I'd like to stay on this comment for a while: Quote For example: they teach their members not to participate in ANY local Government,
yet they believe their organization is going to replace all existing Governments.
Just exactly how does your organization teach this will happen; David?First, no one believes that “their organization” is going to replace all existing Governments. God's kingdom will do that. (Dan 2:44)
It is true that JW's believe they should stay out of politics/government.
While the Bible says human government has it's place and has been authorized by God for our good and that we should follow the law of the land and pay caesar his due, all human governments have proven incompetent to solve any of mankind's problems. They can not bring peace or save people. I personally believe the US government is a huge ponzi scheme, but that's another topic.
JW's believe the last several thousand years have been an experiment in HUMAN RULE, and it has been a failure. All this to show that we need God and GOD RULE. Today, we pray for God's kingdom to come and that kingdom will destroy human governments (Dan 2:44) We don't want to find ourself promoting or sponsoring something God has purposed to destroy.And neither did the FIRST CHRISTIANS:
“Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. . . . The Christians . . . felt it a violation of their faith to enter military service. They would not hold political office. They would not worship the emperor.”
–On the Road to Civilization—A World History, A. K. Heckel and J. G. Sigman, 1937, pp. 237-8“The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, . . . and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state.”
–The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168“While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416.
“The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.”
–“Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” by F. P. G. Guizot in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246)Speaking of the early Christians, the book World History, The Story of Man’s Achievements says: “Zealous Christians did not serve in the armed forces or accept political offices.”
Church historian Augustus Neander reported that “the Christians were represented as men dead to the world, and useless for all affairs of life; . . . and it was asked, what would become of the business of life, if all were like them?”
ED::::::
Were the earliest Christians correct in their view of politics, or where those who came later correct?Given all that was said of an apostasy, a falling away from true worship, I'd go with the earliest Christians any day.
1 CORINTHIANS 2:6
“Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing.”
1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”ED::::::
If the Bible says THE RULERS OF THIS SYSTEM OF THINGS ARE TO COME TO NOTHING, why be one of them? God is going to bring to nothing ALL GOVERNMENT. Why be a part of something God is set to destroy? (Dan 2:44)Please answer these questions Ed.
“and they go forth to the KINGS of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” (Rev)
[LOOK UP AND READ: JOHN 6:15]
Notice that Jesus decisively rejected this offer of political leadership.
Our exemplar refused involvement in political matters.We can also note Jesus words, at: [JOHN 17:14-16]
If someone is “no part of the world,” (as Christians are to be) would they be involved in the affairs of the world, in the administration and ruling of the world? NO.
ED::::::::
Furthermore, notice that we are also warned of the “wicked one” in this verse.
In John 16:11, which is just back a page, we see that Satan is described as the “ruler of this world” who has been judged.
If Satan is the ruler of the world, why would a Christian want to take part or join in that rulership?Please answer those questions Ed.
Jesus followers are subjects of that kingdom, which also makes them no part of the world and keeps them out of politics.
As Jesus followers, Christians pray for God’s government, his kingdom. They tell others the good news about this government, and all it will accomplish. (Mat 24:14)
Instead looking to human governments to solve the world’s problems, Christians look to God’s kingdom as the ultimate solution to mankind’s problems–hence, they do not engage in politics.
david.
Hi David,Could you highlight the questions that you want me to address?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
ED::::::
Hi David,It would be much easier if you would ask only one question per post.
Because what each and every question relates to becomes lost in such L O N G posts.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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