- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Some people have very strong morals,and some just average,and some no morals at all.
Every tribe have their own morals,but who is the judge that defines between good morals and bad morals?
Is there a person or a society that can be judge between good morals and bad morals?For all are corrupt.Can any human with human nature inside them, be a just and righteous judge?To keep morals strongly in place
I say no: for we all are not qualified to be a judge of human morals,for we are all quilty of doing the wrong thing,we all like put ourselves first.
So we need a higher being to keep it in control.
And he is the creator of all; he is the judge,he decides what is good and what is evil.
No human can have that position.If one does not believe in that being we call God,then he has nobody to judge good and evil; Anything goes by what ever one thinks is good or evil.
Therefore there is no punishment nor reward to do good,for there is no judge.
There is no judge; so lets do what is best for every one; for him or her, for life is very short,we must do the best we can to live a good life before we die.Why should we care for our neighbour; let them take care of them selves.
All you atheist,rejecting your creator;the potter that made you; you claim that you have made your selves.
you are on your own,you make your own rules to suit yourselves.Good and bad is all relative,everyone has their own opinion.
What kind of a world would it be? I can tell you what it would be; it would be like living amongst animals.Learned people living like animals; the strong takes the weak
A million dollars in the bank is not enough,we need more,even if we can not finish that money in our life time,its still not enough,never stop,keep going,untill we bites the dust and someone else will enjoy the goods.But the poor must go through the day without food.
And they say; oh poor people, but its all their own fault.This earth and all the goods in it does not belong to just a hand full,but its all for us to share,the gold and the silver is all for us to share.
Believers have a God,and knows that he is watching all mankind. and the day of judgement is coming soon; and man will be judged according to their works,this is in the second resurrection.And he is the righteous judge.He is not a corrupt judge.
You atheist; you also will be judged,according to your works.
There is no escape.
Let the wicked stay wicked still,and let the righteous stay righteous still.What profit is there to be an atheist?
Can pride safe you from the tribulation coming?
It is coming;for God says so; babylon the great the mother of harlots,and abominations of the earth will be no more forever.All God lovers; stay in the faith, for he is coming soon.
Great tribulations will come to this evil world,cause evil and satan must be no more for ever.wakeup.
Does this higher power of yours consider slavery to be good or evil?
Also, for bonus points, what does this higher power think of contraceptives? Good or evil?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 30 2012,08:45) Does this higher power of yours consider slavery to be good or evil? Also, for bonus points, what does this higher power think of contraceptives? Good or evil?
Whatistrue.Slavery was not part of Gods plan;but since man has constructed society,slavery was part of the system.
The hebrews were slaves of the egyptians and God has freed them from slavery.But as they have rejected God as their king and chose Saul instead, they have structured their own system,and slavey was in the jewish system,as their neibours have.
Regarding contraceptives; It is the system that mankind has constructed,Not Gods system,but mans.
This world has rejected Gods way,they did it their way,and the result is what we have now, confusion.All the problems and complications,and unanswered questions.
Killing is wrong in Gods eyes,but this world is so full of evil,that it is hard to judge sometimes to abort a baby or not.
Does one take contraceptions in order to live a loose life?Or
does one use condoms to stop breeding anymore children?
they are not the same thing.I personally think that contraception is necessary,because of the system we have created. Even devorce was not on Gods agenda,it is our system.There is nothing about contraceptives in the scriptures.Every one must use their own conscience in truth.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ May 30 2012,20:25) Every one must use their own conscience in truth.
You should have started (and ended) your post with this statement, because this is the essential point that I was trying to make with my questions.In your OP, you suggest that humans are morally lost without a god. Yet, I ask you two moral questions and you can't answer them definitively one way or the other. Why don't you just ask your god and get a straight answer? Slavery: good or evil? Contraceptives: good or evil?
The problem, of course, is that your god doesn't provide any absolute morality at all. The bible is a collection of conflicting moral ideas, and we humans are left to sort it out using, as you put it, our own conscience.
Christians, just like atheists, come to all kinds of different conclusions about moral questions, because Christians, just like atheists, are ultimately using their own judgment to discern what is right and wrong. However, when a Christian comes to a moral conclusion, he goes the extra step to claim that it comes from God, and thinks that it's OK to therefore impose that conclusion on everybody else.
News flash: Christians are just as morally confused as the rest of us. (If you doubt this, explain to me why there are thousands of Christian denominations, all with differing views on various moral questions.)
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 31 2012,03:24) Quote (Wakeup @ May 30 2012,20:25) Every one must use their own conscience in truth.
You should have started (and ended) your post with this statement, because this is the essential point that I was trying to make with my questions.In your OP, you suggest that humans are morally lost without a god. Yet, I ask you two moral questions and you can't answer them definitively one way or the other. Why don't you just ask your god and get a straight answer? Slavery: good or evil? Contraceptives: good or evil?
The problem, of course, is that your god doesn't provide any absolute morality at all. The bible is a collection of conflicting moral ideas, and we humans are left to sort it out using, as you put it, our own conscience.
Christians, just like atheists, come to all kinds of different conclusions about moral questions, because Christians, just like atheists, are ultimately using their own judgment to discern what is right and wrong. However, when a Christian comes to a moral conclusion, he goes the extra step to claim that it comes from God, and thinks that it's OK to therefore impose that conclusion on everybody else.
News flash: Christians are just as morally confused as the rest of us. (If you doubt this, explain to me why there are thousands of Christian denominations, all with differing views on various moral questions.)
Whatistrue.Where does morals come from,in your opinion?
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ May 30 2012,23:06) Whatistrue. Where does morals come from,in your opinion?
wakeup.
Morals come from the desire/need for social cooperation. People who desire to live in close proximity to other people have to figure out ways in which to do so agreeably.(By contrast, if you live on an island with no other creatures with which to interact, there is no need for morals of any kind.)
That's why, as the ways that we interact with each other socially changes over time, our sense of morality changes.
(For a great example of how morality changes over time, see morality in the old testament versus morality in the new testament. Or do you still believe that it is appropriate to stone an adulterer to death?)
Whatistrue.
So morals evolved through society,has that worked so far?
Is it still evolving or has it gone down the drain?
Are we more concern about our neighbours or are we getting more selfish?
We are living in a world without God,how many world wars have we so far, and the third one is coming soon; is morals still evolving or diminishing?wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ May 31 2012,05:02) So morals evolved through society,has that worked so far?
Yes. In large part, we no longer believe in appeasing gods by sacrificing animals or people. In large part, we no longer allow human beings to enslave other human beings. In fact, in general, we are far less violent than we have ever been.Yes, there are still problems, but we are moving in the right direction.
Quote Is it still evolving or has it gone down the drain? Yes, it's still evolving. It has not gone down the drain. Let us not forget that not even one hundred years ago, large portions of the US thought that it was acceptable to lynch black people in order to “keep them in their place”. Would you like to return to those days?
Quote Are we more concern about our neighbours or are we getting more selfish? Yes, in general, we are more concerned with our neighbors. In general, we see perfect strangers as human beings that deserve respect and whose rights should be honored. Only two centuries ago, US soldiers massacred large numbers of native Americans as a matter of public policy because most Americans didn't see native Americans as human beings whose lives mattered at all.
Quote We are living in a world without God,how many world wars have we so far, and the third one is coming soon; is morals still evolving or diminishing? Every world war that we have had thus far has been fought, in large part, by christians who believed in your god. Go to any church in America, especially the protestant ones, and try to proclaim an anti-war message. You will be run out of the “sanctuary” as though you were the devil. The fact of the matter is that the strongest support for war, and especially recent wars, comes from religious people.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 01 2012,02:23) Quote (Wakeup @ May 31 2012,05:02) So morals evolved through society,has that worked so far?
Yes. In large part, we no longer believe in appeasing gods by sacrificing animals or people. In large part, we no longer allow human beings to enslave other human beings. In fact, in general, we are far less violent than we have ever been.Yes, there are still problems, but we are moving in the right direction.
Quote Is it still evolving or has it gone down the drain? Yes, it's still evolving. It has not gone down the drain. Let us not forget that not even one hundred years ago, large portions of the US thought that it was acceptable to lynch black people in order to “keep them in their place”. Would you like to return to those days?
Quote Are we more concern about our neighbours or are we getting more selfish? Yes, in general, we are more concerned with our neighbors. In general, we see perfect strangers as human beings that deserve respect and whose rights should be honored. Only two centuries ago, US soldiers massacred large numbers of native Americans as a matter of public policy because most Americans didn't see native Americans as human beings whose lives mattered at all.
Quote We are living in a world without God,how many world wars have we so far, and the third one is coming soon; is morals still evolving or diminishing? Every world war that we have had thus far has been fought, in large part, by christians who believed in your god. Go to any church in America, especially the protestant ones, and try to proclaim an anti-war message. You will be run out of the “sanctuary” as though you were the devil. The fact of the matter is that the strongest support for war, and especially recent wars, comes from religious people.
Whatistrue.When you say religious people,do you mean the so called Christians,and the true Christians both together?
There are true followers and there are so called followers,they are called the luke warm,and they are the majority.About morals:Who do you think amongst mankind is Holy enough,and righteous enough to be the referee?
Can mankind with bad human nature in them take the place to be the referee?We have not improved in our behaviour,exept we are getting smarter in our hipocritical policies.
Talk peace and human rights,but also have our killing machines updated and improved to kill more with less blows.We need God to be the judge of morals; We are too selfish to be the judge.The more educated a person gets,the more dangerous he gets to society,and the more self reliance he becomes.
Quote (Wakeup @ June 01 2012,20:26) When you say religious people,do you mean the so called Christians,and the true Christians both together?
There are true followers and there are so called followers,they are called the luke warm,and they are the majority.
Have you heard of the No True Scotsman fallacy? Your response is a primary example of it.Quote About morals:Who do you think amongst mankind is Holy enough,and righteous enough to be the referee?
Can mankind with bad human nature in them take the place to be the referee?This is a silly question. There is no need for one person to judge every body else. In fact, when only one person has that kind of power, it generally ends up very badly. What works, and what has worked for ages, is when people work together cooperatively to figure out what standards and norms work in society the way that it is presently constituted.
Quote We have not improved in our behaviour,exept we are getting smarter in our hipocritical policies.
Talk peace and human rights,but also have our killing machines updated and improved to kill more with less blows.Did you not view the presentation that I linked to in my earlier post. You are flat out wrong. Violence (as defined by the number of people killed per capita) is measurably far below what it used to be centuries ago. We have, in fact, improved in our behavior.
If you don't think so, name one historical period when there was less violence, less starvation, and more social cooperation across the globe than there is now. Name one!
Quote We need God to be the judge of morals; We are too selfish to be the judge.The more educated a person gets,the more dangerous he gets to society,and the more self reliance he becomes. Again, I have pointed out already how useless your god is to judge anything. I asked you two simple moral questions and you couldn't give me a clear cut answer on either one of them from your “superior” judge. Let's try it again.
Does this higher power of yours consider slavery to be good or evil?
Also, for bonus points, what does this higher power think of contraceptives? Good or evil?
Whatistrue.
since you can not understand my anwer,I will have to give you the simple answer:
Jesus said that our neighbour we must love,and therefore slavery is bad in Gods eyes.
Since God says to Adam and eve: be fruitful and multiply,therefore contraception is wrong in Gods eyes.
Since God says that divorce is not his way,therefore divorce is wrong in Gods eyes.
But we could not care less about God,we have been doing it our way,and therefore came all the slaves,killings,divorce and contraception.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ June 06 2012,02:12) Whatistrue. since you can not understand my anwer,I will have to give you the simple answer:
Jesus said that our neighbour we must love,and therefore slavery is bad in Gods eyes.
Since God says to Adam and eve: be fruitful and multiply,therefore contraception is wrong in Gods eyes.
Since God says that divorce is not his way,therefore divorce is wrong in Gods eyes.
But we could not care less about God,we have been doing it our way,and therefore came all the slaves,killings,divorce and contraception.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,Excellent post!
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Wakeup @ June 05 2012,21:12) Whatistrue.
Jesus said that our neighbour we must love,and therefore slavery is bad in Gods eyes.
…
But we could not care less about God,we have been doing it our way,and therefore came all the slaves,killings,divorce and contraception.wakeup.
Sorry, my friend, but you are flat out wrong.Leviticus 25:39-46:
‘And if one of your brethren who dwells by you becomes poor, and sells himself to you, you shall not compel him to serve as a slave. As a hired servant and a sojourner he shall be with you, and shall serve you until the Year of Jubilee. And then he shall depart from you—he and his children with him—and shall return to his own family. He shall return to the possession of his fathers. For they are My servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. You shall not rule over him with rigor, but you shall fear your God. And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor.That's the law!
Notice that this commandment explicitly forbids the enslavement of fellow Hebrews, but encourages the enslavement of “strangers”. This is exactly the kind of slavery that the United States tolerated for much of its history.
Exodus 21:20-21
And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.The law about loving your neighbor was there from the beginning – Leviticus 19:18 reads in part “…you shall love your neighbor as yourself… .” – so it has nothing to do with condemning slavery at all. Both laws coexisted without conflict (unless you want to admit that that laws in the bible are inherently flawed).
There is one other possibility: God is a moral relativist. Slavery was fine for the Hebrews but it's not fine now, (i.e. the law has changed).
Is that what you believe, or do you believe as the Psalmist in Psalms 19:7 says that the law is perfect?
Whose right? You or the bible?
Sorry WIT, it is only you who is wrong.
“there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” (Heb 7:12)
“Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his
neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:9-10)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd,
Your ability to comprehend basic arguments is as questionable as ever.
Let me make it simple for you. Is Leviticus 19:18 in conflict with Leviticus 25:44-46?
If not, then your Romans passage is irrelevant.
Thanks for playing!
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 06 2012,03:53) Quote (Wakeup @ June 05 2012,21:12) Whatistrue.
Jesus said that our neighbour we must love,and therefore slavery is bad in Gods eyes.
…
But we could not care less about God,we have been doing it our way,and therefore came all the slaves,killings,divorce and contraception.wakeup.
Sorry, my friend, but you are flat out wrong.Leviticus 25:39-46:
‘And if one of your brethren who dwells by you becomes poor, and sells himself to you, you shall not compel him to serve as a slave. As a hired servant and a sojourner he shall be with you, and shall serve you until the Year of Jubilee. And then he shall depart from you—he and his children with him—and shall return to his own family. He shall return to the possession of his fathers. For they are My servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. You shall not rule over him with rigor, but you shall fear your God. And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor.That's the law!
Notice that this commandment explicitly forbids the enslavement of fellow Hebrews, but encourages the enslavement of “strangers”. This is exactly the kind of slavery that the United States tolerated for much of its history.
Exodus 21:20-21
And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.The law about loving your neighbor was there from the beginning – Leviticus 19:18 reads in part “…you shall love your neighbor as yourself… .” – so it has nothing to do with condemning slavery at all. Both laws coexisted without conflict (unless you want to admit that that laws in the bible are inherently flawed).
There is one other possibility: God is a moral relativist. Slavery was fine for the Hebrews but it's not fine now, (i.e. the law has changed).
Is that what you believe, or do you believe as the Psalmist in Psalms 19:7 says that the law is perfect?
Whose right? You or the bible?
Whatistrue.you still can not understand can you;It is because you refuse to understand.
After adam sinned,this world is in mens hands,and men has developed his own system not Gods system.
Therefore we have the poor amongst us,and the strangers, and the needy.
Under Gods system this would not be so,but since this is how it is,the poor still need a living.And God put down the rules,to look after them and to treat them right.There should not be any slaves in Gods eyes,but since men has created them,God simply put down the rules,
to look after them.In Gods world there is no poor or strangers;we all are one and the same; no one master over another.We have one master,and that is God
But it is mankind that has made it that way, mankind has been causing all the problems in this world,for they are under the rule of satan.
This is why God intervene,to set things right,according to his plan,but we up to now still refuse God in the picture,we dont want him,satan makes sure of this; but not the few that waits for God to set things right,and he will come soon to set things as it should be.
wakeup.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 06 2012,04:45) Ed, Your ability to comprehend basic arguments is as questionable as ever.
Let me make it simple for you. Is Leviticus 19:18 in conflict with Leviticus 25:44-46?
If not, then your Romans passage is irrelevant.
Thanks for playing!
Hi WIT, you make a lousy lawyer!Since you don't believe any of it, it seems
ironic that you should have any opinion here?“One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto
the stranger that sojourneth among you.” (Exodus 12:49)
Ex.12:49 means that someone can buy their freedom as well.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WhatIsTrue @ June 06 2012,04:45) Ed, Your ability to comprehend basic arguments is as questionable as ever.
Let me make it simple for you. Is Leviticus 19:18 in conflict with Leviticus 25:44-46?
If not, then your Romans passage is irrelevant.
Thanks for playing!
Hi WhatistrueYou need to read these two verses more closely, and understand the culture and time they were given in, namely, at the beginning of the Hebrew nation, before the coming of the Messiah.
What you are not understanding about the two verses in Leviticus is who GOD considered their neighbors to be at that time.
Leviticus 19:18 “You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you should love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.”
Their neighbors were those from their own people, not those from other nations.
You have to also remember, that at the time these instructions were given, GOD had chosen the Hebrews as his OWN nation. They were the important ones to him as they were chosen for a specific purpose. They were to first learn who exactly the one true GOD was and then they were to tell the other nations who the one true GOD was. Of course, it did not work out quite the way GOD had planned because man followed his carnal nature and turned from GOD instead. However, at the time these verses were given to the Hebrews, GOD was still teaching them who he was and what he expected from his people.
Now that the Messiah has come, things have now changed and he taught us that we are all one in faith and now everyone is our neighbor. And as Wakeup said, if everyone would obey GOD, there would be none of the things that go on today.
Therefore, yes, all slavery is obviously wrong in GOD's eyes, the slavery that went on in the US before the civil war as well as the slavery that goes on still today.
Quote (annie @ June 06 2012,07:07) Therefore, yes, all slavery is obviously wrong in GOD's eyes, the slavery that went on in the US before the civil war as well as the slavery that goes on still today.
Hi Anne,“Dt.20:14
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself. “God has classed the women and little ones right along with the cattle and other posessions, to be taken as spoil.
Isn't that obviously wrong in God's eye?Tim
Quote (annie @ June 06 2012,07:07) And as Wakeup said, if everyone would obey GOD, there would be none of the things that go on today.
There also would be a lot fewer little old Walmart greeters because we would have to stone them all to death for working on Sunday.It is God's law and Jesus said in Mat. 5:18, “because I tell you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.”
Do you not believe God or Jesus Annie?
Tim
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
