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Quote (942767 @ Oct. 23 2007,13:23) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 23 2007,13:13) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 23 2007,13:09) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 23 2007,12:01) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 23 2007,11:32) Hi Morning Star: What about the following verse relative to your thesis?
Quote Hebrews 2:5-9
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower F6 than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.God Bless
exactly angels will no longer be in charge of the nations. we will be as the new spirit filled sons of god. Thanks for reminding me of this proof text.hebrews 2
17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for[f]the sins of the people
you also reminded me of this verse. Where Jesus had to take on our form rather than his previous angelic form in order to help us. because since he doesnt help the angels he cant remain in his angelic form.
No MS: My point is that Jesus is not an angelic being, and he never was. An angel (messenger) yes, but not an angelic being.God Bless
Yeah,I got your point and then proceeded to make mine.
And what about the following scripture:Quote Heb 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?Heb 5:5
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.God Bless
Yes he never said that to any of the other angels.The other angels worshipped him when he came into the world to accept his nation of Israel.
Deuteronomy 32:43 (most any version except KJV)
43 “Rejoice with him, you heavens,
and let all of God’s angels worship him.[a]
Rejoice with his people, you nations,
and let all the angels be strengthened in him.
For he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take revenge against his enemies.
He will repay those who hate him[c]
and cleanse the land for his people.”Also, quoted in hebrews directly after your quote by Paul.
6 And when he brought his firstborn Son into the world, God said,[c]
“Let all of God’s angels worship him.”
Jesus was elevated above HIS COMPANIONS!
I love how people use Hebrews 1 and 2 against Jesus being an angel. Because, it is what helps prove he is. It's amazing.
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 23 2007,13:49) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 23 2007,13:23) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 23 2007,13:13) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 23 2007,13:09) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 23 2007,12:01) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 23 2007,11:32) Hi Morning Star: What about the following verse relative to your thesis?
Quote Hebrews 2:5-9
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower F6 than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.God Bless
exactly angels will no longer be in charge of the nations. we will be as the new spirit filled sons of god. Thanks for reminding me of this proof text.hebrews 2
17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for[f]the sins of the people
you also reminded me of this verse. Where Jesus had to take on our form rather than his previous angelic form in order to help us. because since he doesnt help the angels he cant remain in his angelic form.
No MS: My point is that Jesus is not an angelic being, and he never was. An angel (messenger) yes, but not an angelic being.God Bless
Yeah,I got your point and then proceeded to make mine.
And what about the following scripture:Quote Heb 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?Heb 5:5
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.God Bless
Yes he never said that to any of the other angels.The other angels worshipped him when he came into the world to accept his nation of Israel.
Deuteronomy 32:43 (most any version except KJV)
43 “Rejoice with him, you heavens,
and let all of God’s angels worship him.[a]
Rejoice with his people, you nations,
and let all the angels be strengthened in him.
For he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take revenge against his enemies.
He will repay those who hate him[c]
and cleanse the land for his people.”Also, quoted in hebrews directly after your quote by Paul.
6 And when he brought his firstborn Son into the world, God said,[c]
“Let all of God’s angels worship him.”
Jesus was elevated above HIS COMPANIONS!
I love how people use Hebrews 1 and 2 against Jesus being an angel. Because, it is what helps prove he is. It's amazing.
Not from my perspective. He never said “Thou art my Son, Today I have begotten thee” to any angelic being.God Bless
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 23 2007,14:17) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 23 2007,13:49) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 23 2007,13:23) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 23 2007,13:13) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 23 2007,13:09) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 23 2007,12:01) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 23 2007,11:32) Hi Morning Star: What about the following verse relative to your thesis?
Quote Hebrews 2:5-9
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower F6 than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.God Bless
exactly angels will no longer be in charge of the nations. we will be as the new spirit filled sons of god. Thanks for reminding me of this proof text.hebrews 2
17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for[f]the sins of the people
you also reminded me of this verse. Where Jesus had to take on our form rather than his previous angelic form in order to help us. because since he doesnt help the angels he cant remain in his angelic form.
No MS: My point is that Jesus is not an angelic being, and he never was. An angel (messenger) yes, but not an angelic being.God Bless
Yeah,I got your point and then proceeded to make mine.
And what about the following scripture:Quote Heb 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?Heb 5:5
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.God Bless
Yes he never said that to any of the other angels.The other angels worshipped him when he came into the world to accept his nation of Israel.
Deuteronomy 32:43 (most any version except KJV)
43 “Rejoice with him, you heavens,
and let all of God’s angels worship him.[a]
Rejoice with his people, you nations,
and let all the angels be strengthened in him.
For he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take revenge against his enemies.
He will repay those who hate him[c]
and cleanse the land for his people.”Also, quoted in hebrews directly after your quote by Paul.
6 And when he brought his firstborn Son into the world, God said,[c]
“Let all of God’s angels worship him.”
Jesus was elevated above HIS COMPANIONS!
I love how people use Hebrews 1 and 2 against Jesus being an angel. Because, it is what helps prove he is. It's amazing.
Not from my perspective. He never said “Thou art my Son, Today I have begotten thee” to any angelic being.God Bless
Yes, people stopped interpreting it that way in about the 4th century and translators are helping perpetuate this.Good thing we have so much info from biblical scholars. things are such a mess.
I will do up a quick study on this, because these 2 chapters can create quite the paradigm shift once properly understood
Hi Morning Star:
You also quoted the following verse in support of your thesis:
Quote Job 38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
38:5
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest ? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
38:6
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened ? or who laid the corner stone thereof;And I believe that God is giving me some revelation knowledge through this discussion, but not the revelation knowledge that you seem to have.
Quote Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;1Pe 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.Quote Hebrews 1
1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:I believe that although Genesis states that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and rested on the seventh day, we are in the sixth day from the creation of mankind even unto the present day. God has rested on the seventh day having seen the end result from the beginning, and we who have striven to obey God from the beginning even unto now are striving to enter into that seventh day rest. Those who have died in faith have entered into that rest. When God said “let US make man in our image”, He was speaking to his Son and his sons. In this last day there will be 144,000 who will be mature sons of God through whom he will bring the rest of the Israel of God to maturity.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 23 2007,15:23) Hi Morning Star: You also quoted the following verse in support of your thesis:
Quote Job 38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
38:5
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest ? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
38:6
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened ? or who laid the corner stone thereof;And I believe that God is giving me some revelation knowledge through this discussion, but not the revelation knowledge that you seem to have.
Quote Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;1Pe 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.Quote Hebrews 1
1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:I believe that although Genesis states that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and rested on the seventh day, we are in the sixth day from the creation of mankind even unto the present day. God has rested on the seventh day having seen the end result from the beginning, and we who have striven to obey God from the beginning even unto now are striving to enter into that seventh day rest. Those who have died in faith have entered into that rest. When God said “let US make man in our image”, He was speaking to his Son and his sons. In this last day there will be 144,000 who will be mature sons of God through whom he will bring the rest of the Israel of God to maturity.
God Bless
You may be right.I always always considered becoming a follower of Christ is “already” entering that rest. This is why I don't observe the Sabbath.
I agree with the early Christians who said your whole live becomes a Sabbath rest for God.
Hebrews 4
6 So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. 7 So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today.
“that time is today.”
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 24 2007,09:02) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 23 2007,15:23) Hi Morning Star: You also quoted the following verse in support of your thesis:
Quote Job 38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
38:5
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest ? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
38:6
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened ? or who laid the corner stone thereof;And I believe that God is giving me some revelation knowledge through this discussion, but not the revelation knowledge that you seem to have.
Quote Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;1Pe 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.Quote Hebrews 1
1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:I believe that although Genesis states that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and rested on the seventh day, we are in the sixth day from the creation of mankind even unto the present day. God has rested on the seventh day having seen the end result from the beginning, and we who have striven to obey God from the beginning even unto now are striving to enter into that seventh day rest. Those who have died in faith have entered into that rest. When God said “let US make man in our image”, He was speaking to his Son and his sons. In this last day there will be 144,000 who will be mature sons of God through whom he will bring the rest of the Israel of God to maturity.
God Bless
You may be right.I always always considered becoming a follower of Christ is “already” entering that rest. This is why I don't observe the Sabbath.
I agree with the early Christians who said your whole live becomes a Sabbath rest for God.
Hebrews 4
6 So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. 7 So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today.
“that time is today.”
Hi MS:I guess any further discussion relative to the Sabbath rest should be discussed in that thread, and so I won't respond to that here.
God Bless
Wow,
Why do you study men's thoughts at all? We are told not to trust in men. We are to trust in YHWH and His instructions alone!Satan tempted Eve in the garden. Satan deceived her by saying she could be like gods, knowing good and evil. This wasn't a complete lie. We all know good and evil because She was selfish and wanted to be like god. That was the lie part of the twist.
I stand with Kejonn here. I do not place myself in a position of being a god. I am blessed to be a servant for Him.
More deep into this are these thoughts: If we are gods then we do not have laws. Without laws there is no definition of sin. Without a definition of sin, we are sinless. Without sin there is no need for a Savior. Now tell me you still believe it is for us to be gods.
Laurel
Quote (Laurel @ Oct. 28 2007,19:33) Wow,
Why do you study men's thoughts at all? We are told not to trust in men. We are to trust in YHWH and His instructions alone!Satan tempted Eve in the garden. Satan deceived her by saying she could be like gods, knowing good and evil. This wasn't a complete lie. We all know good and evil because She was selfish and wanted to be like god. That was the lie part of the twist.
I stand with Kejonn here. I do not place myself in a position of being a god. I am blessed to be a servant for Him.
More deep into this are these thoughts: If we are gods then we do not have laws. Without laws there is no definition of sin. Without a definition of sin, we are sinless. Without sin there is no need for a Savior. Now tell me you still believe it is for us to be gods.
Laurel
Why only goal is this:Jude vs. 3
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.
As a body we do not believe the same things today that the early church believed. Yet, the early churches teachings match perfectly what the New Testament teaches both accurately and literally.
This is only one aspect of their teachings.
The entire point of salvation through Christ is to be adopted as sons and enter into the Family of God. We are to become sons being begotten again “born from above” through the Father. In this way we are to be like Christ even higher than the angels who were not begotten. The entire salvation message was about us becoming elohim with the Son and Father. Becoming sons of God.
This is what scripture teaches and what Justin Martyr and Iranaeus and the gang all taught.
I am not a “new age” nut here.
Quote (Laurel @ Oct. 28 2007,19:33) Wow,
Why do you study men's thoughts at all? We are told not to trust in men. We are to trust in YHWH and His instructions alone!Satan tempted Eve in the garden. Satan deceived her by saying she could be like gods, knowing good and evil. This wasn't a complete lie. We all know good and evil because She was selfish and wanted to be like god. That was the lie part of the twist.
I stand with Kejonn here. I do not place myself in a position of being a god. I am blessed to be a servant for Him.
More deep into this are these thoughts: If we are gods then we do not have laws. Without laws there is no definition of sin. Without a definition of sin, we are sinless. Without sin there is no need for a Savior. Now tell me you still believe it is for us to be gods.
Laurel
The truth is we all study the thoughts of men.Unless you have been locked in a room with only the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek manuscripts and can read them then so have you.
What bible translation do you use? Tell me this I can tell you the names of the translators so you know whose thoughts of you are listening to.
It's amazing how one can research historically the views of the church and how they have evolved through the centuries to our modern church. We don't believe what the first churches believed. So all of Christianity has listened to men for 2000 years.
Then when one goes back and tries to bring attention to this 2000 years of falling away. They get mocked by people who truly haven't dont the research and haven't the slightest idea of what the early church represented or believed.
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 28 2007,08:16) Quote (Laurel @ Oct. 28 2007,19:33) Wow,
Why do you study men's thoughts at all? We are told not to trust in men. We are to trust in YHWH and His instructions alone!Satan tempted Eve in the garden. Satan deceived her by saying she could be like gods, knowing good and evil. This wasn't a complete lie. We all know good and evil because She was selfish and wanted to be like god. That was the lie part of the twist.
I stand with Kejonn here. I do not place myself in a position of being a god. I am blessed to be a servant for Him.
More deep into this are these thoughts: If we are gods then we do not have laws. Without laws there is no definition of sin. Without a definition of sin, we are sinless. Without sin there is no need for a Savior. Now tell me you still believe it is for us to be gods.
Laurel
Why only goal is this:Jude vs. 3
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.
As a body we do not believe the same things today that the early church believed. Yet, the early churches teachings match perfectly what the New Testament teaches both accurately and literally.
This is only one aspect of their teachings.
The entire point of salvation through Christ is to be adopted as sons and enter into the Family of God. We are to become sons being begotten again “born from above” through the Father. In this way we are to be like Christ even higher than the angels who were not begotten. The entire salvation message was about us becoming elohim with the Son and Father. Becoming sons of God.
This is what scripture teaches and what Justin Martyr and Iranaeus and the gang all taught.
I am not a “new age” nut here.
Can you show where Christians will be “higher than the angels”?Justin Martyr studied Plato and Socrates before he became a Christian. He took that background and interpreted the bible accordingly.
Irenæus was raised in a Greek Christian home, so he too focused mostly on the writings of the new testament. No issue here but the Greek influence, being pagan, may have had an effect on him. He seemed to know quite a bit about gnosticism too.
So theses two may have been reflective of the “early church” but they too took a Jewish savior and interpreted him (and the bible) is manners foreign to the religion from which Yeshua came.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 29 2007,02:38) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 28 2007,08:16) Quote (Laurel @ Oct. 28 2007,19:33) Wow,
Why do you study men's thoughts at all? We are told not to trust in men. We are to trust in YHWH and His instructions alone!Satan tempted Eve in the garden. Satan deceived her by saying she could be like gods, knowing good and evil. This wasn't a complete lie. We all know good and evil because She was selfish and wanted to be like god. That was the lie part of the twist.
I stand with Kejonn here. I do not place myself in a position of being a god. I am blessed to be a servant for Him.
More deep into this are these thoughts: If we are gods then we do not have laws. Without laws there is no definition of sin. Without a definition of sin, we are sinless. Without sin there is no need for a Savior. Now tell me you still believe it is for us to be gods.
Laurel
Why only goal is this:Jude vs. 3
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.
As a body we do not believe the same things today that the early church believed. Yet, the early churches teachings match perfectly what the New Testament teaches both accurately and literally.
This is only one aspect of their teachings.
The entire point of salvation through Christ is to be adopted as sons and enter into the Family of God. We are to become sons being begotten again “born from above” through the Father. In this way we are to be like Christ even higher than the angels who were not begotten. The entire salvation message was about us becoming elohim with the Son and Father. Becoming sons of God.
This is what scripture teaches and what Justin Martyr and Iranaeus and the gang all taught.
I am not a “new age” nut here.
Can you show where Christians will be “higher than the angels”?Justin Martyr studied Plato and Socrates before he became a Christian. He took that background and interpreted the bible accordingly.
Irenæus was raised in a Greek Christian home, so he too focused mostly on the writings of the new testament. No issue here but the Greek influence, being pagan, may have had an effect on him. He seemed to know quite a bit about gnosticism too.
So theses two may have been reflective of the “early church” but they too took a Jewish savior and interpreted him (and the bible) is manners foreign to the religion from which Yeshua came.
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?Yes we will be servants to the Father and HIS first born BUT we will be as Jesus.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
NO! we won't be equal AS GOD but we are HIS children and as children then after HIS kind. The angels are not born children. They are not of this NEW CREATION. The actual born children of the Father~GOD~!
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?The fear is that we would become as Satan wanting to be equal if not above the Father. That is why the servant is the greatest. I for one KNOW and believe all HIS Children will be happy with what we will be. Remember Satan was not “born” of God.
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 29 2007,03:36) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 29 2007,02:38) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 28 2007,08:16) Quote (Laurel @ Oct. 28 2007,19:33) Wow,
Why do you study men's thoughts at all? We are told not to trust in men. We are to trust in YHWH and His instructions alone!Satan tempted Eve in the garden. Satan deceived her by saying she could be like gods, knowing good and evil. This wasn't a complete lie. We all know good and evil because She was selfish and wanted to be like god. That was the lie part of the twist.
I stand with Kejonn here. I do not place myself in a position of being a god. I am blessed to be a servant for Him.
More deep into this are these thoughts: If we are gods then we do not have laws. Without laws there is no definition of sin. Without a definition of sin, we are sinless. Without sin there is no need for a Savior. Now tell me you still believe it is for us to be gods.
Laurel
Why only goal is this:Jude vs. 3
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.
As a body we do not believe the same things today that the early church believed. Yet, the early churches teachings match perfectly what the New Testament teaches both accurately and literally.
This is only one aspect of their teachings.
The entire point of salvation through Christ is to be adopted as sons and enter into the Family of God. We are to become sons being begotten again “born from above” through the Father. In this way we are to be like Christ even higher than the angels who were not begotten. The entire salvation message was about us becoming elohim with the Son and Father. Becoming sons of God.
This is what scripture teaches and what Justin Martyr and Iranaeus and the gang all taught.
I am not a “new age” nut here.
Can you show where Christians will be “higher than the angels”?Justin Martyr studied Plato and Socrates before he became a Christian. He took that background and interpreted the bible accordingly.
Irenæus was raised in a Greek Christian home, so he too focused mostly on the writings of the new testament. No issue here but the Greek influence, being pagan, may have had an effect on him. He seemed to know quite a bit about gnosticism too.
So theses two may have been reflective of the “early church” but they too took a Jewish savior and interpreted him (and the bible) is manners foreign to the religion from which Yeshua came.
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?Yes we will be servants to the Father and HIS first born BUT we will be as Jesus.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
NO! we won't be equal AS GOD but we are HIS children and as children then after HIS kind. The angels are not born children. They are not of this NEW CREATION. The actual born children of the Father~GOD~!
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?The fear is that we would become as Satan wanting to be equal if not above the Father. That is why the servant is the greatest. I for one KNOW and believe all HIS Children will be happy with what we will be. Remember Satan was not “born” of God.
Yep, I agree Ken.Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 29 2007,02:38) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 28 2007,08:16) Quote (Laurel @ Oct. 28 2007,19:33) Wow,
Why do you study men's thoughts at all? We are told not to trust in men. We are to trust in YHWH and His instructions alone!Satan tempted Eve in the garden. Satan deceived her by saying she could be like gods, knowing good and evil. This wasn't a complete lie. We all know good and evil because She was selfish and wanted to be like god. That was the lie part of the twist.
I stand with Kejonn here. I do not place myself in a position of being a god. I am blessed to be a servant for Him.
More deep into this are these thoughts: If we are gods then we do not have laws. Without laws there is no definition of sin. Without a definition of sin, we are sinless. Without sin there is no need for a Savior. Now tell me you still believe it is for us to be gods.
Laurel
Why only goal is this:Jude vs. 3
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.
As a body we do not believe the same things today that the early church believed. Yet, the early churches teachings match perfectly what the New Testament teaches both accurately and literally.
This is only one aspect of their teachings.
The entire point of salvation through Christ is to be adopted as sons and enter into the Family of God. We are to become sons being begotten again “born from above” through the Father. In this way we are to be like Christ even higher than the angels who were not begotten. The entire salvation message was about us becoming elohim with the Son and Father. Becoming sons of God.
This is what scripture teaches and what Justin Martyr and Iranaeus and the gang all taught.
I am not a “new age” nut here.
Can you show where Christians will be “higher than the angels”?Justin Martyr studied Plato and Socrates before he became a Christian. He took that background and interpreted the bible accordingly.
Irenæus was raised in a Greek Christian home, so he too focused mostly on the writings of the new testament. No issue here but the Greek influence, being pagan, may have had an effect on him. He seemed to know quite a bit about gnosticism too.
So theses two may have been reflective of the “early church” but they too took a Jewish savior and interpreted him (and the bible) is manners foreign to the religion from which Yeshua came.
Hebrews 25 And furthermore, it is not angels who will control the future world we are talking about. 6 For in one place the Scriptures say,
“What are mere mortals that you should think about them,
or a son of man that you should care for him?
7 Yet you made them only a little lower than the angels
and crowned them with glory and honor.
8 You gave them authority over all things.”Now when it says “all things,” it means nothing is left out. But we have not yet seen all things put under their authority.
Revelation 2
26 To all who are victorious, who obey me to the very end,
To them I will give authority over all the nations.
27 They will rule the nations with an iron rod
and smash them like clay pots.28 They will have the same authority I received from my Father, and I will also give them the morning star!
1 Corinthians 6:3
3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
Zechariah 12:8
8 On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God (elohim), like the Angel of the LORD going before them.
I agree with morningstar on all lot of his points, there are many verses that refer to Jesus as “THE Angel of the Lord”, i think if you study it out that you will see a major difference between “an angel of the Lord” and “THE angel of the Lord”.
Actually the Roman term for 'morning star' is Lucifer. You know, the Christian 'devil' and Jesus? How ironic.
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 14 2007,13:18) Actually the Roman term for 'morning star' is Lucifer. You know, the Christian 'devil' and Jesus? How ironic.
you know as well as I do lucifer has nothing to do with Satan.lucifer is not even in scripture. that is just a reminent left in from a previous latin translation. meaning morning star.
you know this, but jab and insult none the less.
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 14 2007,13:18) Actually the Roman term for 'morning star' is Lucifer. You know, the Christian 'devil' and Jesus? How ironic.
let me ask you something?we both know that christians fail miserably at being perfect like christ so don't think I am being elitist here. We both know also however, that most of Christendom doesn't really follow the teachings of Christ. So we can't judge the Master by his wayward disciples falsely so called.
however, you have mentioned you were once a christian who lost faith and found truth in Judaism.
Does this conversion of yours actually allow you or enable you to feel justified in being a crueler person? After all you can reject the teachings of Christ and go back to eye for an eye and love your neighbors and hate your enemies.
Would you consider this a progressive step in Godly morality? Or is it a step backward?
Do you honestly believe your path is more inline with Godly morality now that you have rejected the teachings of Christ?
Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 13 2007,20:49) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 14 2007,13:18) Actually the Roman term for 'morning star' is Lucifer. You know, the Christian 'devil' and Jesus? How ironic.
you know as well as I do lucifer has nothing to do with Satan.lucifer is not even in scripture. that is just a reminent left in from a previous latin translation. meaning morning star.
you know this, but jab and insult none the less.
Really? From your favorite 'old testament', the LXXIsa 14:12 How has Lucifer, that rose in the morning, fallen from heaven! He that sent orders to all the nations is crushed to the earth.
Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 13 2007,20:56) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 14 2007,13:18) Actually the Roman term for 'morning star' is Lucifer. You know, the Christian 'devil' and Jesus? How ironic.
let me ask you something?we both know that christians fail miserably at being perfect like christ so don't think I am being elitist here. We both know also however, that most of Christendom doesn't really follow the teachings of Christ. So we can't judge the Master by his wayward disciples falsely so called.
however, you have mentioned you were once a christian who lost faith and found truth in Judaism.
Does this conversion of yours actually allow you or enable you to feel justified in being a crueler person? After all you can reject the teachings of Christ and go back to eye for an eye and love your neighbors and hate your enemies.
Would you consider this a progressive step in Godly morality? Or is it a step backward?
Do you honestly believe your path is more inline with Godly morality now that you have rejected the teachings of Christ?
Yes because I don't have to be a symbolic cannibal anymore. Drink blood, eat flesh, all that. The Jewish scriptures have much more free will inherent in them than the common Christian beliefs. Except liberal Christians that is. Sort of like Reform Judaism which is basically liberal Christianity sans Christ.How am I a 'crueler person'? Because I wreck your false faith?
Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 14 2007,14:24) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 13 2007,20:49) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 14 2007,13:18) Actually the Roman term for 'morning star' is Lucifer. You know, the Christian 'devil' and Jesus? How ironic.
you know as well as I do lucifer has nothing to do with Satan.lucifer is not even in scripture. that is just a reminent left in from a previous latin translation. meaning morning star.
you know this, but jab and insult none the less.
Really? From your favorite 'old testament', the LXXIsa 14:12 How has Lucifer, that rose in the morning, fallen from heaven! He that sent orders to all the nations is crushed to the earth.
Good catch I was misinformed. I understood it was from latin translations. I conceed this. It obviously stems from Greek meaning the planet venus. which btw is the morning star that certain divinities are called by signifying their significance and exalted status above the other sons of god (stars).However, we both know that word is not a name but means “morningstar”.
We both know that verse is not discussing satan.
You think it is just a man being discussed.
I think it is discussing a fallen morning star and a man in the same passage.
There are many morning stars. They sang for Joy at creation in Job.
Jesus is one of them, some of them fell from grace like this one being spoken of.
We as christians are going to be made like Christ and given the morning star as it rises in our hearts.
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