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For all: WHEN JESUS COMES– At the end of the old world religious order(old covenant) came eternal life in Christ, through Gods word, Jesus of the new covenant. In this new day of the lord, which is the sabbath rest of Jesus, the word of God was made flesh in a man and came teaching us that we must wash away the old covenant physical, ritualistic teachings. The summation of the former way which was lost sheep in darkness seeming apart from God.
Jesus (the word of God) decends from Heaven(spirit) with a shout(voice) of the Archangel to teach the good news or the Gospel that the Kingdom of God(the ruling of the spirit words of God) was within those who would accept and believe the good news.Accepting or meeting with Jesus in the spirit/air/clouds!
Repent (turn from the old physical way) and believe the Gospel. Repentance(for the remission of sin) from the old sinful ritualistic worship
way to the fresh new spirit cleansing from God through Jesus. Jesus said his words were spirit and life.(John 6:63)He made us clean!
I believe the word of God, Jesus comes or (manifest's) spiritually in the earth realm in each person that hears the Truth and accepts it.He then becomes the Temple of God the body of Christ. The word of God is then made flesh in a man each time a human being accepts and believes. The more spirit truth a person partakes of or believes in, that is of the Truth of God, the more complete that being becomes, until he becomes the fullness of God in Christ.
If we don't put away the (old covenant) idea of sin, we are unable to accept our purification through Jesus. God has no sin. If we believe we have sin we have separated ourselves from God.
As it was in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve there was life/good and evil/death to choose to believe in.
They chose sin and death to believe.The passed down that wrong belief through many generations. God is laying out before us the same choice, life and death, now you choose!
If you choose to believe you are a sinner or in sin or unclean or unworthy then you are what you believe. Jesus can't help you!
If you believe that Jesus paved the way to give us life and cleansed us and sanctified us and made us whole in him then that is what you recieve. Onenes with him and the father! No works, just believe to recieve. When you believe your oneness with God and the peace that comes you will pass that love to others. IMO, Bless all, TKQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 19 2009,08:26) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 18 2009,15:36) TO ALL: Let my brother show where I accused any grammarian of “dishonesty.” I simply said that his rendering was “skewed just a little by his futurism.” I said that Robertson was not the “final word.” This is a far cry from accusing someone of dishonesty.
How Jack?If it is skewed by him purposely because he believed a certain way when he knew that it could mean something else, then it is dishonest!
WJ
Keith,
First, try to calm down a little. Second, I did not say or mean that Robertson's views were skewed purposefully. Conventional doctors and wholisitc doctors see practising medicine differently. The vision of each is skewed by his training and his presuppositions. Yet each may practise medicine in an honest fashion. No dishonesty against Robertson was intended on my part. The thought that he was dishonest NEVER crossed my mind. I was thinking only that he is unable to see through his futurist glasses.You inferred that I mean purposefully. First you put words in my mouth concerning something Barnes said. Now this! Chill!
Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 19 2009,12:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 19 2009,08:26) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 18 2009,15:36) TO ALL: Let my brother show where I accused any grammarian of “dishonesty.” I simply said that his rendering was “skewed just a little by his futurism.” I said that Robertson was not the “final word.” This is a far cry from accusing someone of dishonesty.
How Jack?If it is skewed by him purposely because he believed a certain way when he knew that it could mean something else, then it is dishonest!
WJ
Keith,
First, try to calm down a little. Second, I did not say or mean that Robertson's views were skewed purposefully. Conventional doctors and wholisitc doctors see practising medicine fdifferently. The vision of each is skewed by his training and his presuppositions. Yet each may practises medicine in an honest fashion. No dishonesty against Robertson was intended on my part. The thought that he was dishonest NEVER crossed my mind. I was thinking only that he is unable to see through his futurist glasses.You inferred that I mean purposefully. First you put words in my mouth concerning something Barnes said. Now this! Chill!
Jack
JackNo need to chill! I am not upset! My point is, if AT Roberston or any Greek Grammarian put his personal views into the translation of Greek words then that is dishonest!
If that is not what you mean, then I oppologise and will move on.
Keith
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote ORDER “Strong's G5001 – tagma which is defined as; 1) that which has been arranged, thing placed in order 2) a body of soldiers, a corps 3) band, troop, class
The order of class or body is Christ the Firstfruits and afterward those that belong to Christ at his coming!
Not so Keith! It says EACH man “in His own rank.” Christ was the firstfruit of the harvest, then each man in his own rank (or group) after that. This is what it CLEARLY says.
CEV:But we must each wait our turn. Christ was the first to be raised to life, and his people will be raised to life when he returns.
NCV:]But everyone will be raised to life in the right order. Christ was first to be raised. When Christ comes again, those who belong to him will be raised to life,
21st Century KJV:but every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
Wycliffe NT:But each man in his order; the first fruit, Christ [first fruits, Christ], afterward they that be of Christ, that believed in the coming of Christ
It does not read as the futurists read it. Paul did not say Christ first and then all of His people together as one big group. He said, EACH man in HIS own order with Christ being the FIRST. It's clear!
According to Vine's Expository Dictionary the word “tagma” is a military term denoting a “company.” So each man would be raised in His own company. It's like when you have a big pot luck supper at church and each table must be called in a chronological order. Paul said “each man” in His own company.
Paul likened the resurrection to a harvest. The gathering of the crop does not occur all at once. It occurs for a good part of the harvest season. The harvest is for a season.
Jesus also likened the gathering of His people to harvest time. He said also that the resurrection would occur “IN” (or during) the last day. Therefore, each man is gathered in his own group chronologically just as the crops are gathered in bundles and put into the barn.
This destroys the futurist rendering of “hama” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17
And yes, death has been destroyed. But remember that “destruction” means “subjection.”
Christians do not die now. They go straight to heaven to their bodies from heaven. God's people don't sleep in hades any more. Death has been made subject. Since death is the last enemy to be made subject, then all other enemies have been made subject. They just await their doom.
Again, “destroy” simply means “subject.” Death and all enemies have been made subject.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 20 2009,04:58) Hi TT,
Are preterist glasses better?
Naaah.
Read it as writ.
The coming of Christ was THEIR blessed hope. The futurists can't rob it from them no matter what glasses they wear because the promise was kept!“For in just a very little while,
He who is coming will come and will not delay.”Anyone who does not understand this needs new glasses.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 19 2009,08:37) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 18 2009,15:36) Worshippingjesus said: Quote Jack also has chosen to deny the testimony of the world renowned Greek Grammarian and accused him of being dishonest in his explanation of the verse.
TO ALL:Let my brother show where I accused any grammarian of “dishonesty.” I simply said that his rendering was “skewed just a little by his futurism.” I said that Robertson was not the “final word.” This is a far cry from accusing someone of dishonesty.
Anyway, Strong's says that the word “hama” as an adverb has reference to close association. I guess that WJ has no regard for James Strong. That's fine with me. I think the problem here is that WJ thought he had his chronology all neat and tidy. He is now finding out that he has to dig and not just assume his presuppositions to be true.
Just wait until we get into 1 Corinthians 15:23. Paul said that each man would be raised in his own “rank” meaning group. Paul meant that Christ would raise up those who sleep in successive groups. How long would this take? And where would the first groups “hang out” until each successive group has been resurrected? Would they hang around on the earth in their spiritual bodies? Or would they be caught up to wait for each group to be raised and then when the last group is raised they come down to be caught up again with the living?
Paul's assertion that the dead would be raised in successive groups chronologically strongly suggests that that the word “hama” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 be understood as an adverb indicating “close association.” WJ says that I am just trying to hold on to preterism. I am just trying to be true to the timetable in scripture:
“For in just a very little while,
He who is coming will come and will not delay.” Hebrews 10:37thinker
JackSpin, Spin, Spin, diversion.
Jack what are you talking about?
Stongs definition of G260 – hama is 1) at the same time, at once, together
Of course it is in “close association” with them because they are being “CAUGHT UP TOGETHER (HAMA) WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS“.
“Close association” doesn't mean 2000 years after Jesus came we will join them in the clouds does it?
WJ
Keith,
I hope you have a different Strong's than me because I don't want to believe that you are intentionally omitting facts. My Strong's says that as a particle “hama” means “at the same time” BUT, freely used as a prep. or adverb denoting “close association.” It adds that it may mean “also.”This renders your treatment of the word “hama” inconclusive at best. The NEB renders it in the close association sense as I have already shown. This fits with Paul's chronology. Paul said that the dead in Christ would “rise FIRST. Afterwards, we who are living and remaining will be caught up to join them“.
The words, “first” and “afterwards” and the reference to the living saints “remaining” (continuous action) require the close association use of the word. Strong said that it is “FREELY” used in this way. It is “FREELY” used in this way.
So at best you don't have an air tight case. Sorry to pop your balloon!
WJ:
Quote “Close association” doesn't mean 2000 years after Jesus came we will join them in the clouds does it?
I have repeatedly said that all saints from Christ's second coming until now are “caught up.” From that day until now God catches up His people as they put off their earthly bodies. At that time they assume their bodies from heaven so they won't be unclothed (2Cor. 4:16-5:5). Maybe the discussion about an “interval” got us off track.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 19 2009,13:43)
Paul likened the resurrection to a harvest. The gathering of the crop does not occur all at once. It occurs for a good part of the harvest season. The harvest is for a season.Jesus also likened the gathering of His people to harvest time. He said also that the resurrection would occur “IN” (or during) the last day. Therefore, each man is gathered in his own group chronologically just as the crops are gathered in bundles and put into the barn.
This destroys the futurist rendering of “hama” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Hi all!What Jack is saying here is that the “season” or “harvest time” is from Christ proposed return in 70AD until now, 2000 years later. But Jack is proposing that this happens when someone dies they are going to the clouds according to 1 Thess 4:17 bypassing the resurrection of their bodies!
Also this leaves Jack with a conundrum for Jesus death meant those that were in Hades ascended with him after his resurrection, but Jack is proposing by his interpretation of 1 Thess 4:17 that they, “the dead in Christ” must have waited until he came in 70AD!
Then Jack says this destroys the Preterist view of 1 Thess 4:17. Not so, and in fact 1 Cor 15 supports the futurist view as we shall see!
We have already shown how the word “Hama” means It is the catching away of the saints together (hama)!
I just noticed Jack posted again on this, so rather than chasing his rabbit trail I will just mention that the word “hama” is in relation to our being caught up “together” (hama) with them, and not in relation to those who proceed us in being raised. Dead in Christ raised, then those who remain caught away together (hama)!
Jack pointed out that “hama” is defined as 1) at the same time, at once, together Strong's G260 – hama. or as he says strongs (close association).
But now Jack goes over to 1 Cor 15 to disprove the clear meaning of the scripture by saying that “hama” does not mean at the same time, at once, together!
“**CAUGHT UP TOGETHER (hama) WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS**“!
Jack is now doing what he accused me of doing and that is pitting scripture against scripture!
Paul in context of 1 Cor 15:23 says not only those things mentioned above will happen when the resurrection takes place, but he confirms the timetable of the resurrection and the catching away of the saints in their order later in the chapter when he writes…
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, “but we shall all be changed“, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, “AT THE LAST TRUMP”: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Cor 15:52
In the blink of an eye together we shall be changed and caught up with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air!
When does this take place Jack?
Notice “THE LAST TRUMP”! No Jack your view of 1 Cor 15:23 in no way destroys the futurist view, but in fact 1 Cor 15:23 and 52 supports the futurist view.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and “WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together (hama) with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:16, 17
Jack has failed to address my following points…
1. If Jacks interpretation is right and the saints remained here on earth then Jack is telling us that they are caught up to be with (syn) them in the clouds when they die!
2. Is Jesus still in the clouds, are those that slept still in the clouds? Jack says this passage applies to everyone after he came including you and I!
3. What Jack is proposing is that when Christ died the souls of the saints remained in Hades until Christ came in 70AD!Also, Jack failed to address the following scripture that says when the resurrection of the saints takes place in their “order” that the end would come!
“**Then cometh the end**, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father“; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The “LAST ENEMY” that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:24-26
Jack says death is destroyed by subduing it, which is double talk meaning death still exist but it is destroyed (subdued). Hogwash, Jack saints still die!
Death is the LAST ENEMY Jack! Did you catch that Jack, “THE LAST ENEMY”! Have all of Gods enemies been subdued or destroyed?
So death has not been destroyed (Strong's G2673 – katargeō) which is defined 1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency b) to deprive of force, influence, power
Jack has also not answered the following…
'Has the End come yet“?
“Has Jesus delivered up the Kingdom to the Father yet“?
“Has all enemies been put under his feet yet“?
“Has the last enemy “death” been destroyed yet“?
“Has every knee in heaven and in earth bowed the knee yet“?
“Is God all in all yet”?
“Has Jesus come yet“?
Jack will you address these points before you create anymore rabbit holes?
I do love you brother, but you are being evasive!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 19 2009,14:25) This renders your treatment of the word “hama” inconclusive at best. The NEB renders it in the close association sense as I have already shown. This fits with Paul's chronology. Paul said that the dead in Christ would “rise FIRST. Afterwards, we who are living and remaining will be caught up to join them”.
No Jack, it does not fit Pauls chronology.Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, “but we shall all be changed“, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, “AT THE LAST TRUMP”: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Cor 15:52
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and “WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together (hama) with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:16, 17
For our conversation is in heaven; “FROM WHENCE ALSO WE LOOK FOR THE SAVIOUR, the Lord Jesus Christ: “WHO SHALL **CHANGE OUR VILE BODY**, THAT IT MAY BE FASHIONED LIKE UNTO HIS GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20, 21
Thats air tight!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 19 2009,13:43) Not so Keith! It says EACH man “in His own rank.” Christ was the firstfruit of the harvest, then each man in his own rank (or group) after that. This is what it CLEARLY says.
CEV:But we must each wait our turn. Christ was the first to be raised to life, and “his people will be raised to life **WHEN HE RETURNS**”.NCV:But everyone will be raised to life in the right order. Christ was first to be raised. **WHEN CHRIST COMES AGAIN**, those who belong to him will be raised to life,
21st Century KJV:but every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward those who are **CHRIST'S AT HIS COMING**.
It is clear that we are raised when he comes!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 19 2009,13:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 20 2009,04:58) Hi TT,
Are preterist glasses better?
Naaah.
Read it as writ.
The coming of Christ was THEIR blessed hope. The futurists can't rob it from them no matter what glasses they wear because the promise was kept!“For in just a very little while,
He who is coming will come and will not delay.”Anyone who does not understand this needs new glasses.
thinker
And the preterist cannot rob us of the Blessed hope which is the return of Jesus and the resurrection which we shall all share together or that means they were favoured over us!WJ
TO KEITH:
Keith,
This is to reply to your question when every knee will bow. The futurist interpretation of this verse is another example of how they commit the fallacy of generalization. The prophecy that said that “every knee shall bow” referred only to the elect of God and it is UNTO THEIR SALVATION that they confess Christ.Quote 22 “ Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
24 He shall say,‘ Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength.
To Him men shall come,
And all shall be ashamed
Who are incensed against Him.
25 In the LORD all the descendants of Israel
Shall be justified, and shall glory.’” Isaiah 45:22-25You must refer back to verse 4 to find that this prophecy that “every knee shall bow” has reference only to God's elect. Note that it is UNTO SALVATION that they confess Christ as Lord. It says, “Every tongue shall take an oath. He shall say, 'Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength.'“
Then it says, “In the Lord ALL the descendants of Israel shall be justified, and shall glory.” Therefore, the “every knee” and “every tongue” expressions refer only to the people of God.
There is no prophecy in the Bible which says that the ungodly will bow the knee or confess Christ as Lord. They live, die and will suffer in eternity as haters of God. Again, just another example of the futurist fallacy of generalization hermeneutic.
All God's people from the time Christ was exalted until now have bowed their knee and have confessed Him as Lord except for the anti-trinitarians who deny He is Lord. Not all anti-trinitarians deny Him. But those who do deny Him are not of God's people. If Gene and some others here are truly of God's people then they will be converted and bow their knee to Christ. But as long as Nick and Gene say that Jesus was sinful and that He was no better than you and me, they will die the haters of God they really are and they will curse Christ forever in the lake of fire as they curse Him now. They have already been judged. The judgment took place. Jesus said so.
“Now is the judgment upon this world.” Nick and Gene do not await the judgment. They await their doom unless they repent before they die. Jesus said, “If you do not believe that I AM you shall die in your sins.” Note that they die “in their sins”. This means that their judgment is determined at their deaths. They will not go to “the pit” (that section of hades which was reserved for the wicked dead of the old testament). They will go straightway to the lake of fire and in their misreable condition they will curse Jesus forever and ever. They will NEVER, NO NEVER bow their knees.
I am busy making preparations for the for the holiday and will pop in and out.
thinker
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote What Jack is saying here is that the “season” or “harvest time” is from Christ proposed return in 70AD until now, 2000 years later. But Jack is proposing that this happens when someone dies they are going to the clouds according to 1 Thess 4:17 bypassing the resurrection of their bodies!
Keith,
Why do you twist what I say? I have consistently said that the resurrection is past. The harvest of those who “slept” is over and done. After the resurrection was finished God's saints do not sleep. Geez man! Get what I am saying straight dude! The harvest had to do ONLY with those who slept.WJ:
Quote Also this leaves Jack with a conundrum for Jesus death meant those that were in Hades ascended with him after his resurrection, but Jack is proposing by his interpretation of 1 Thess 4:17 that they, “the dead in Christ” must have waited until he came in 70AD!
The scripture no where says that those who slept awoke and ascended with Jesus after His resurrection. The “conundrum” is yours. For if they were caught up with Him after He was resurrected then How can the living be caught up with them simultaneously? Are you saying that those who slept were caught up with Him when He ascended, that they will descend to their spiritual bodies at His coming, and that they will be caught up again with the living? Are you saying that some saints are caught up TWICE?
WJ:
Quote We have already shown how the word “Hama” means It is the catching away of the saints together (hama)!
You have NOT shown.WJ:
Quote But now Jack goes over to 1 Cor 15 to disprove the clear meaning of the scripture by saying that “hama” does not mean at the same time, at once, together! “**CAUGHT UP TOGETHER (hama) WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS**”!
Circular. You assume the futurist rendering is infallible when it is clearly wrong. You said above that those who slept ascended with Christ after His resurrection. So in order for them to be caught up simultaneously with the living at Christ's coming they would need to descend and be caught up again. Moreover, you clearly deny that Paul said that they “SLEEP.” If the resurrection is still future then they cannot be alive even now. If the resurrection is still future then they are still sleeping. You are one confused bro!Btw, Paul said that those who slept would be raised “IN” the last trumpet, that is, during the time of the last trumpet. This concurs with the book of Revelation.
WJ:
Quote In the blink of an eye together we shall be changed and caught up with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air!
Yes it would in the blink of an eye each man in his own rank (group). Paul said “each man in his own rank.” Paul did not say that all the those who slept would be raised in the same blink. He meant that when each man's turn comes he would be changed in a blink of an eye.WJ:
Quote , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, “but we shall all be changed”, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, “AT THE LAST TRUMP”: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Cor 15:52 In the blink of an eye together we shall be changed and caught up with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air!
Folks, did you notice the word WJ added to Paul's statement? He added the word “together.” Classic futurist eisegesis! Paul had just said “each man in his own rank” in reference to those who slept. So we know that he does not mean that everyone would be raised together.
George Eldon Ladd, a futurist and an eminent millennialist believed that the resurrection would occur in groups. Milllard Erickson presents Ladd's in His book:Quote In addition to this passage [Rev. 20], there are, Ladd claimed, other passages that seem to hint at the possibility of more than one resurrection. Philippians 3:11 speaks of ἐξανάστασιν3 τὴν ἐκ νεκρῶν, literally “out-resurrection out from among the drad ones,” a meaning that is generally lost in the English translations, which say something like, “a resurrection from (or of) the dead.” Paul seems in this text to have aspiring to to a resurrection that will, in effect, result in a separation from dead persons.. Ladd said that 1 Corinthians 15:23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 hint at a partial resurrection, and Daniel 12:2 and John 5:29 suggest a resurrection in two stages (Contemporary Options in Eschatology, Millard J. Erickson, Baker Book House, p. 100)
There it is! A futurist stands with a preterist that the dead would be raised in groups, at least two groups. Since Ladd believed that 1 Corinthians 15:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 suggest a resurrection in “two stages” then WJ's treatment of “hama” is not so air tight after all is it? WJ's treatment of “hama” has been disproven as he ignores the words “first” in reference to the dead being raised and he ignores the participle “remaining” which indicates the continuous action of the living remaining after Christ's coming.James Strong says that the word “hama” is “FREELY used as a prep. or adv. denoting close association (260).” So it is not always used as a time indicator.
WJ makes Paul to contradict Himself. He comments on Paul's “twinkling of an eye” statement and pits it against what he had just said concerning each man being raised in his own order. Paul did not mean that we are all changed in the same blink of an eye. He clearly said that we each would be change “in his own order.” Paul simply meant that we each would be changed instantly when it comes our turn. That's all!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 20 2009,12:34) Keith,
This is to reply to your question when every knee will bow. The futurist interpretation of this verse is another example of how they commit the fallacy of generalization. The prophecy that said that “every knee shall bow” referred only to the elect of God and it is UNTO THEIR SALVATION that they confess Christ.
Jack, Jesus will see every knee bow and every tongue confess because he will bring everything into subjection to himself in the end.He is the Beginning and the End.
”AND WHEN ALL THINGS SHALL BE SUBDUED UNTO HIM”, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, “that God may be all in all.“ 1 Cor 15:28
Eventually God will be all in all!
WJ
Jack, when will you answer my points and questions?
Everyone take note, Jack has failed to address my following points…
1. If Jacks interpretation is right and the saints remained here on earth then Jack is telling us that they are caught up to be with (syn) them in the clouds when they die!
2. Is Jesus still in the clouds, are those that slept still in the clouds? Jack says this passage (1 Thess 4:16, 17) applies to everyone after he came including you and I!
3. What Jack is proposing is that when Christ died the souls of the saints remained in Hades until Christ came in 70AD! (Therefore making his death void and ineffective to save those in hades until 70AD!)Also, Jack failed to address the following scripture that says when the resurrection of the saints takes place in their “order” that the end would come!
“**Then cometh the end**, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father“; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The “LAST ENEMY” that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:24-26
Jack says death is destroyed by subduing it, which is double talk meaning death still exist but it is destroyed (subdued). Hogwash, Jack saints still die!
Death is the LAST ENEMY Jack! Did you catch that Jack, “THE LAST ENEMY”! Have all of Gods enemies been subdued or destroyed?
So death has not been destroyed (Strong's G2673 – katargeō) which is defined 1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency b) to deprive of force, influence, power
Jack has also not answered the following…
'Has the End come yet“?
“Has Jesus delivered up the Kingdom to the Father yet“?
“Has all enemies been put under his feet yet“?
“Has the last enemy “death” been destroyed yet“?
“Has every knee in heaven and in earth bowed the knee yet“? (he has made an unconvincing attempt)
“Is God all in all yet”?
“Has Jesus come yet“?
Jack will you address these points before you create anymore rabbit holes?
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote For our conversation is in heaven; “FROM WHENCE ALSO WE LOOK FOR THE SAVIOUR, the Lord Jesus Christ: “WHO SHALL **CHANGE OUR VILE BODY**, THAT IT MAY BE FASHIONED LIKE UNTO HIS GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20, 21 Keith,
Not “air tight” as you say. I have shown you already that the word “body” (soma) by synecdoche refers to the complete man and not necessarily the physical body. But your futurist ears are dull of hearing. Paul used the same word to refer to bodies that are celestial and also those that are spiritual.Paul said that we do not sow that body which shall be but “naked grain.” The “naked grain” is the inner part of the seed. By analogy it is the inner man that is sown and it is from that which the new, non-terrestrial body comes. Paul was very,very clear about this. He said that the body which comes is spiritual. Futurists partially concede the spiritual nature of the resurrection body. Then their double tallk kicks in and they say, “this does not mean that it is not a physical body.” This is double talk. If it is a spiritual body then it cannot be a physical body. This is substantiated by Paul's concluding statement, “This I say then, that flesh and bloood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God.
Air tight brother? Really?
Then in 2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5 Paul discusses the body which we will receive when our earthly body dissolves. He said that it is a body that is “unseen” and that it is “not made with hands.” In other words, it is not of this creation. It will not be a terrestrial body like the bodies we have now.
16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is dissolving, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
2 Corinthians 5
Assurance of the Resurrection
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that death may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.Note first that Paul said that our outward man is “dissolving.” Your body is going to be recycled in this creation so deal with it brother. It will be eaten by the bugs which will be eaten by the birds which will be eaten by predators which will die. The bodies of the predators will be eaten by the bugs and the recycling will go on ad infinitum.
Second, Paul said that we do not look for the things which are “seen” but for the things which are “unseen.” So our resurrection bodies will not be visible to the mortal eye. The futurists reveal their carnal mindset with all their carnal expectations. Their view of the kingdom is carnal as well as their view of the resurrection body.
Third, Paul said that the resurrection body is “not made with hands” which means that it is “not of this creation” (compare w/ Hebrews 9:11).
Finally, death will be swallowed up when we put on our body from heaven. Paul said this in reference to the assumption of our spiritual body (1 Cor. 15). So the spiritual body and the body from heaven are one and the same.
Paul CLEARLY said that our outward man is dissolving which means that it would not remain for a resurrection. That which would remain for the resurrection is the inner man, that is, the “naked grain.” Christ returned and raised the souls of His people from hades in their bodies from heaven. They are not terrestrial bodies.
You're going to be recycled brother. Paul said that these bodies will perish and we observe it. The futurist's carnal expectations of the resurrection are out of accord with Paul and with reality. The futurists have no provision for Polycarp annd the many Christians whose bodies were burned and used to light up the city of Rome. Their bodies are gone.
But Paul made the provision. He said, “For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”
So it's not “air tight” as you say. Neither is there such a thing as an “air tight” coffin. The bugs will eat your body. You will be recycled. There is no avoiding it.
Btw, the word “somatikos” is the word which has reference to the corporeal body. Paul did not use this word of the resurrection. He used “soma” which has a very wide application. It may refer to the non-corporeal body. By synecdoche the word “soma” may refer to the whole man as I have already shown. Therefore, it is our entire man [body] which shall be transformed like Christ's glorious man!
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 20 2009,09:07) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 19 2009,13:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 20 2009,04:58) Hi TT,
Are preterist glasses better?
Naaah.
Read it as writ.
The coming of Christ was THEIR blessed hope. The futurists can't rob it from them no matter what glasses they wear because the promise was kept!“For in just a very little while,
He who is coming will come and will not delay.”Anyone who does not understand this needs new glasses.
thinker
And the preterist cannot rob us of the Blessed hope which is the return of Jesus and the resurrection which we shall all share together or that means they were favoured over us!WJ
Where was the blessed hope promised YOU? Show where. It was promised THEM. It was THEIR hope and it is your realization.thinker
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