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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 17 2009,15:42) Hi WJ,
Surely the curse on the earth will be lifted and the weeds and thorns disappear.
NHTrue! And as we can see the curse is still on the earth and the Lion isn't laying down with the Lamb, and the child is not playing around the hole of a poisness snake with out the fear of being bit, and there still is crying and sorrow and death!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 18 2009,03:49) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Jack you cannot have your cake and eat it too! You are doing what is called… “Eisegesis” which means you are reading into the text you own Ideas! The key words are “”from this time onward”! You are taking it to mean 40 years later. But Jesus words do not agree with you, for he said “from this time onward” didn't he?
Keith,
Apparently I have not been clear on this. I thought I was. The coming of Christ was a linear event. Caiaphas began to see the coming of Christ starting with His session at the right hand of power to His coming in the clouds of heaven. Jesus told Caiaphas that he would see the whole dang thing including His coming in the clouds. JESUS MEANT WHAT HE SAID! Again, the coming of Christ was a linear event. I hope this clears it up.WJ:
Quote So Jack “from this time onward” could mean 2000 years later since it does not mean from the very moment that Jesus said it, right? Again, you are basing your facts on ambiguity! In fact there is lots of controversy around that verse even in your own camp.
Nope! It means that Caiaphas would see Christ's coming before he died. Jesus told His disciples that some of them would not die until they saw His coming in His kingdom.WJ:
Quote A former Full Preterist shares his perspective on why “Total Fulfillment in AD70” is not only wrong, but also powerfully dangerous…. So he drops the bombshell…
Is this how you want to do it Keith? If so then I can cite former futurists. Go back to the site where you acquired the statement of the former full preterist and see what he says about the word of Jesus to His disciples that some of them would not die until they saw His coming.Oh, btw, to my knowledge all those who call themselves “former full preterists” still put Christ's advent in the first century. Did this guy convert to your brand of futurism? AD70 seems problematic even for some preterists. It doesn't matter because Jesus still said that “this generation would not pass until ALL these things take place.” So I can live with Christ's advent stretching beyond ad70 so long as it was completed before that generation passed away.
WJ:
Quote So you see Jack, your interpretation is at best ambiguous! You have yet to prove anything!
You ignore Christ's word to His disciples that some of them would remain to His coming and then say I haven't proven anything. Was Christ's encounter with Caiaphas the only biblical evidence I offered? How about answering Christ's word to His disciples. Here it is again:“TRULY, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Be advised that I am ready for the futurist explanation that this was about the transfiguration.
thinker
Hi thethinker:Try the following scripture for an explanation:
Quote Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Love in Christ,
MartyThanks for the welcome. I was just browsing through the responses made to this topic and I really can't understand the view that this is the new earth. That someone would think that baffles me. There's so much that the bible says is going to happen that hasn't even taken place yet.
We are getting closer to the new earth with each passing day. But these things will come in due time on God's time and not ours.
Besides, what's the point of a new earth that has sin and death? He mine as well just keep this one going if that was the case. That doesn't make sense to me either. If God wants to scrap the earth and start a new one, shouldn't it be a better place instead of the same?
I know these weren't your points. They were TT's. I'm just putting what I've understood from this thread out there.
TO WJ AND ALL:
Upon further investigation of the word “hama” I have discovered that as a particle the word means “at the same time.” But as an adverb it denotes “close association”. See Strong's # 260.
The word “hama” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 must be understood as an adverb because the context will not allow for it to function as a particle. Paul did not mean that the living would be caught up simultaneously with the dead. He clearly said that the dead would be raised “FIRST.” Paul clearly said that “the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST.” Then he said, “AFTERWARDS, we who are alive and remaining will be caught up to join them.”
The word “hama” with the word “sun” is used two times in 1 Thessalonians and the NEB correctly renders it as an adverb indicating the close association meaning.
4:17:“…then we who are left alive shall join them….”
5:10: “He died for us so that we, awake or asleep, might live in company with them”.
The reading “in company” in 5:10 is the word “hama” and the preposition “with” is “sun.” Paul simply meant that we will live in company with them.
WJ'S FUTURIST PRESUPPOSITION EFFECTIVELY DENIES THAT ANY SAINTS WOULD BE LIVING WITH CHRIST NOW. IF WJ CONCEDES THAT SAINTS ARE LIVING WITH CHRIST NOW THEN WE DO NOT LIVE TOGETHER SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH THEM. It's that simple! No degree in rocket science is necessary.
So our brother WJ now must demonstrate beyond the shadow of the doubt that “hama” is a particle indicating the “at the same time” meaning. This will be an uphill battle for him seeing that Paul said that the dead would rise “FIRST” and that “AFTERWARDS” those who were alive and “REMAINING” would be caught up. The word “remaining” is a participle and expresses the continuous action of their remaining.
Paul said that some would be remaining AFTER Christ's coming. Therefore, if WJ is correct in saying that the living are caught up simultaneously with the dead, then who preached the gospel after they were caught up?
About Paul's statement in 5:10. WJ has tried incessantly to disprove that the Thessalonian saints lived to Christ's return because some of them died. But note what Paul said:
“He died for us so that we awake or asleep, might live in company with Him.” Paul was aware of the possibility that some of them would expire before the Lord returned. This does not nullify the truth that he expected Christ to return to them.
thinker
Hi TT,
Do you think the expectations are somehow proof that what they expected happened?
Seems an odd form of logic.Quote (Beloved @ Nov. 18 2009,16:56) Thanks for the welcome. I was just browsing through the responses made to this topic and I really can't understand the view that this is the new earth. That someone would think that baffles me. There's so much that the bible says is going to happen that hasn't even taken place yet. We are getting closer to the new earth with each passing day. But these things will come in due time on God's time and not ours.
Besides, what's the point of a new earth that has sin and death? He mine as well just keep this one going if that was the case. That doesn't make sense to me either. If God wants to scrap the earth and start a new one, shouldn't it be a better place instead of the same?
I know these weren't your points. They were TT's. I'm just putting what I've understood from this thread out there.
Please read Isaiah's account of the new earth (chaps 65-66). He clearly said that there would be death and sinners present in the new earth. He said also that they would “bring forth children.” Yet the futurists tell us that man will cease as a breeding race in the new earth. John also saw sinners outside the gates of the holy city but they are not permitted to enter the gates of the city (Rev. 22:14-15). So sinners exist in the new earth. The new earth is simply THIS earth covenantally renewed.It is only in heaven that there is no sin or death or sinners.
Paul said that this earth would be redeemed (Rom. 8). The eradication of sin in the experience does not happen in redemption. “If any man be in Christ he is a NEW CREATION.” You still sin don't you?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 18 2009,13:49) TO WJ AND ALL: Upon further investigation of the word “hama” I have discovered that as a particle the word means “at the same time.” But as an adverb it denotes “close association”. See Strong's # 260.
The word “hama” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 must be understood as an adverb because the context will not allow for it to function as a particle. Paul did not mean that the living would be caught up simultaneously with the dead. He clearly said that the dead would be raised “FIRST.” Paul clearly said that “the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST.” Then he said, “AFTERWARDS, we who are alive and remaining will be caught up to join them.”
The word “hama” with the word “sun” is used two times in 1 Thessalonians and the NEB correctly renders it as an adverb indicating the close association meaning.
4:17:“…then we who are left alive shall join them….”
5:10: “He died for us so that we, awake or asleep, might live in company with them”.
The reading “in company” in 5:10 is the word “hama” and the preposition “with” is “sun.” Paul simply meant that we will live in company with them.
WJ'S FUTURIST PRESUPPOSITION EFFECTIVELY DENIES THAT ANY SAINTS WOULD BE LIVING WITH CHRIST NOW. IF WJ CONCEDES THAT SAINTS ARE LIVING WITH CHRIST NOW THEN WE DO NOT LIVE TOGETHER SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH THEM. It's that simple! No degree in rocket science is necessary.
So our brother WJ now must demonstrate beyond the shadow of the doubt that “hama” is a particle indicating the “at the same time” meaning. This will be an uphill battle for him seeing that Paul said that the dead would rise “FIRST” and that “AFTERWARDS” those who were alive and “REMAINING” would be caught up. The word “remaining” is a participle and expresses the continuous action of their remaining.
Paul said that some would be remaining AFTER Christ's coming. Therefore, if WJ is correct in saying that the living are caught up simultaneously with the dead, then who preached the gospel after they were caught up?
About Paul's statement in 5:10. WJ has tried incessantly to disprove that the Thessalonian saints lived to Christ's return because some of them died. But note what Paul said:
“He died for us so that we awake or asleep, might live in company with Him.” Paul was aware of the possibility that some of them would expire before the Lord returned. This does not nullify the truth that he expected Christ to return to them.
thinker
Hi allThis is totally ludicrous and a desperate attempt by Jack to hold on to his Preterist view!
I will shortly head this off and go into detail later since I have other responses to make to his previous post.
The scripture reads..
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be “CAUGHT UP TOGETHER (HAMA) WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:17
“**CAUGHT UP TOGETHER (hama) WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS**“
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that “hama” is not related to the resurrection of those that sleep in Christ who proceed those who are alive, but is related to their being caught away together!
Every major translation found on Blueletterbible.org and Biblegateway.com renders the verse this way
Jack has chosen a lonely version the NEB to support his view which is not even supported by Biblegateway.com or blueletterbible.org.
Jack also has chosen to deny the testimony of the world renowned Greek Grammarian and accused him of being dishonest in his explanation of the verse.
It is the catching away of the saints together (hama)!
But thank you Jack for pointing out that the “**CAUGHT UP TOGETHER (hama) WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS**” is
1) at the same time, at once, together Strong's G260 – hama.
Jack is using an old debaters trick which is called “diversion”.
BTW everyone, if Jacks interpretation is right and the saints remained here on earth then Jack is telling us that they are caught up to be with (syn) them in the clouds when they die!
Is Jesus still in the clouds, are those that slept still in the clouds? Jack says this passage applies to everyone after he came including you and I!
Jack, Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord so your little argument about us not being in his presence when we die is a fallacy!
Why because the dead in Christ were already with him when Jesus went to hades before his resurrection and led captivity captive. The resurrection of the dead in Christ will be the resurrection of their bodies that will be changed in the twinkling of an eye!
What Jack is proposing is that when Christ died the souls of the saints remained in hades until Christ came in 70AD!
Hello! Ludicrous! Jesus was the firstborn from the dead making him the firstfruits, the prototype of those who are raised from the dead or those that are asleep in Christ!
Jack denies the physical resurrection of our bodies which are to be made after his glorious body, therefore he denies the resurrection of the saints!
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: “WHO SHALL **CHANGE OUR VILE BODY**, THAT IT MAY BE FASHIONED LIKE UNTO HIS GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20, 21
WJ
Worshippingjesus said:
Quote Jack also has chosen to deny the testimony of the world renowned Greek Grammarian and accused him of being dishonest in his explanation of the verse.
TO ALL:Let my brother show where I accused any grammarian of “dishonesty.” I simply said that his rendering was “skewed just a little by his futurism.” I said that Robertson was not the “final word.” This is a far cry from accusing someone of dishonesty.
Anyway, Strong's says that the word “hama” as an adverb has reference to close association. I guess that WJ has no regard for James Strong. That's fine with me. I think the problem here is that WJ thought he had his chronology all neat and tidy. He is now finding out that he has to dig and not just assume his presuppositions to be true.
Just wait until we get into 1 Corinthians 15:23. Paul said that each man would be raised in his own “rank” meaning group. Paul meant that Christ would raise up those who sleep in successive groups. How long would this take? And where would the first groups “hang out” until each successive group has been resurrected? Would they hang around on the earth in their spiritual bodies? Or would they be caught up to wait for each group to be raised and then when the last group is raised they come down to be caught up again with the living?
Paul's assertion that the dead would be raised in successive groups chronologically strongly suggests that that the word “hama” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 be understood as an adverb indicating “close association.” WJ says that I am just trying to hold on to preterism. I am just trying to be true to the timetable in scripture:
“For in just a very little while,
He who is coming will come and will not delay.” Hebrews 10:37thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 18 2009,15:36) TO ALL: Let my brother show where I accused any grammarian of “dishonesty.” I simply said that his rendering was “skewed just a little by his futurism.” I said that Robertson was not the “final word.” This is a far cry from accusing someone of dishonesty.
How Jack?If it is skewed by him purposely because he believed a certain way when he knew that it could mean something else, then it is dishonest!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 18 2009,15:36) Worshippingjesus said: Quote Jack also has chosen to deny the testimony of the world renowned Greek Grammarian and accused him of being dishonest in his explanation of the verse.
TO ALL:Let my brother show where I accused any grammarian of “dishonesty.” I simply said that his rendering was “skewed just a little by his futurism.” I said that Robertson was not the “final word.” This is a far cry from accusing someone of dishonesty.
Anyway, Strong's says that the word “hama” as an adverb has reference to close association. I guess that WJ has no regard for James Strong. That's fine with me. I think the problem here is that WJ thought he had his chronology all neat and tidy. He is now finding out that he has to dig and not just assume his presuppositions to be true.
Just wait until we get into 1 Corinthians 15:23. Paul said that each man would be raised in his own “rank” meaning group. Paul meant that Christ would raise up those who sleep in successive groups. How long would this take? And where would the first groups “hang out” until each successive group has been resurrected? Would they hang around on the earth in their spiritual bodies? Or would they be caught up to wait for each group to be raised and then when the last group is raised they come down to be caught up again with the living?
Paul's assertion that the dead would be raised in successive groups chronologically strongly suggests that that the word “hama” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 be understood as an adverb indicating “close association.” WJ says that I am just trying to hold on to preterism. I am just trying to be true to the timetable in scripture:
“For in just a very little while,
He who is coming will come and will not delay.” Hebrews 10:37thinker
JackSpin, Spin, Spin, diversion.
Jack what are you talking about?
Stongs definition of G260 – hama is 1) at the same time, at once, together
Of course it is in “close association” with them because they are being “CAUGHT UP TOGETHER (HAMA) WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS“.
“Close association” doesn't mean 2000 years after Jesus came we will join them in the clouds does it?
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 18 2009,15:36) Just wait until we get into 1 Corinthians 15:23. Paul said that each man would be raised in his own “rank” meaning group. Paul meant that Christ would raise up those who sleep in successive groups. How long would this take? And where would the first groups “hang out” until each successive group has been resurrected? Would they hang around on the earth in their spiritual bodies? Or would they be caught up to wait for each group to be raised and then when the last group is raised they come down to be caught up again with the living?
JackWhat in the world are you talking about? I wasn't kidding when I asked you “how deep does this rabbit hole go”?
But “every man in his own order (tagma)“: Christ the firstfruits; “afterward they that are Christ's at his coming“. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 1 Cor 15:23-26
“ORDER “Strong's G5001 – tagma which is defined as;
1) that which has been arranged, thing placed in order 2) a body of soldiers, a corps 3) band, troop, class
The order of class or body is Christ the Firstfruits and afterward those that belong to Christ at his coming!
The Greek word “tagma” for order is found once in the NT and this is it!
This is the order, Jesus rises first (the firstborn from the dead) meaning “first” as having the preeminence and being the prototype, then those who are his who rise at his coming!
But notice Jack the next verse when he has come….
“**Then cometh the end**, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father“; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 1 Cor 15:24-26
'Has the End come yet“?
“Has Jesus delivered up the Kingdom to the Father yet“?
“Has all enemies been put under his feet yet“?
“Has the last enemy “death” been destroyed yet“?
“Has every knee in heaven and in earth bowed the knee yet“?
“Has Jesus come yet“?
WJ
AMEN AGAIN W.J.!!
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 19 2009,06:06) Please read Isaiah's account of the new earth (chaps 65-66). He clearly said that there would be death and sinners present in the new earth. He said also that they would “bring forth children.” Yet the futurists tell us that man will cease as a breeding race in the new earth. John also saw sinners outside the gates of the holy city but they are not permitted to enter the gates of the city (Rev. 22:14-15). So sinners exist in the new earth. The new earth is simply THIS earth covenantally renewed. It is only in heaven that there is no sin or death or sinners.
Paul said that this earth would be redeemed (Rom. 8). The eradication of sin in the experience does not happen in redemption. “If any man be in Christ he is a NEW CREATION.” You still sin don't you?
thinker
I ask, do you still sin?Yes, I do. I'm not perfect. I'm still having a hard time loving ALL the people around me, which is one of the greatest commandments. Though I'm very content with the idea of loving people just because the bible says to do so. It's the only way I can love people that my mind and personality have deemed unlovable.
What I do is repent and I've asked God that he help me renew my mind. Because only with renewing my mind can I truly repent and not make the same mistakes again. To just give God an excuse is not repenting and means that you'll just go back to sinning again.
It's mentioned that in the end Satan as well as a [/B]bunch of others will have their time to go into the lake of fire. But everyone that's supposed to go into that lake is still here on earth. =\
Sin is still here, liars are still here, murderers are still here etc. If in the end they ALL perish, then how is it that the new world will have sin in it? When the sinners are all to pay for what they've done via the second death.
Rev 22:14-15: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of ilfe, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” You're using it to back up that this is the new earth. But no one's lining up at the gates of the city right now are they? I think of the city were revealed to even where sinners can see it, we'd have known about it. It'd have been not just in the bible in past tense, but it'd be a widely known historical event.
Or are you saying that no one living right now can even get into the city and that we're all screwed cause we weren't born in the time you say everything already happened?
Beloved wrote:
Quote I ask, do you still sin?
That is the wrong question. The question should rather be do you believe God can and will stop you from sinning?
The revised question is asking you whether or not you believe in God while the first is not and may be construed as attempting to prove God does not exist.
Nick said:
Quote Hi WJ,
Surely the curse on the earth will be lifted and the weeds and thorns disappear.Nick,
God lifted the curse on the earth AFTER the flood.“Never again will I curse the ground because of man even though every inclination of his heart is evil from his childhood.” Genesis 8: 21
It is obvious from this that God had lifted the curse on the ground. Otherwise the promise that He would never again curse the ground is meaningless. All deficiencies we experience are the direct result of man's poor stewardship of the earth. God has nothing to do with thorns and weeds today.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 19 2009,03:11) Nick said: Quote Hi WJ,
Surely the curse on the earth will be lifted and the weeds and thorns disappear.Nick,
God lifted the curse on the earth AFTER the flood.“Never again will I curse the ground because of man even though every inclination of his heart is evil from his childhood.” Genesis 8: 21
It is obvious from this that God had lifted the curse on the ground. Otherwise the promise that He would never again curse the ground is meaningless. All deficiencies we experience are the direct result of man's poor stewardship of the earth. God has nothing to do with thorns and weeds today.
thinker
There are no saints in heaven now.Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 19 2009,17:18) Beloved wrote: Quote I ask, do you still sin?
That is the wrong question. The question should rather be do you believe God can and will stop you from sinning?
The revised question is asking you whether or not you believe in God while the first is not and may be construed as attempting to prove God does not exist.
I thought about it a while after I posted. Now reading it over it sounds wrong to me.My main point was that people still sin today. No one was cast into the lake of fire and experienced the second death yet. Not Satan, not his demons, neither sinners. Seeing as to how that is supposed to happen, shouldn't that wipe sin away from the new earth? Which is also saying this is not the new earth because it sin is still here.
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