We are in the new earth

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2009,17:36)

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 08 2009,22:10) Paul said that those who were alive and remained AFTERWARDS would be caught up. John was caught up therefore when he died. He acquired his immortal body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). His earthly body was eaten by the bugs. Wrong Jack, read Paul’s words again… For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that “we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep“. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and “the dead in Christ shall rise first“: “Then we which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air“: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:15-17 Do you see it Jack…? “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together “with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air“: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. There is no interval of time between the resurrection of the saints and the catching away with those who are alive! If Jesus came in 70AD then John missed the catching away and Pauls words are a lie! WJ

Keith,
No Keith! The NIV correctly says “after,”

“After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

Young's Literal Translation says that those who are alive and are “remaining over”

“then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;”

The verb “meno” is a PARTICIPLE which expresses CONTINOUS action. Young's correctly translates it as such. Paul said that we who are alive and remaining over shall be caught up. These are all those who have lived since Christ returned in ad70. We are those who are remaining (continuous action) and will be caught up. We will not go down to hades to sleep as those saints before Christ returned. We will be caught up through the clouds to meet Jesus.

It does not say that we will go together with the dead. Paul said that the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST. Afterwards, we who are alive and remaining will be caught up to join them. You misunderstand the word “ama.” The NEB says this,

“…then we who are left alive shall join them….”

Paul used “epeita” which means “afterwards.” He said, “Afterwards, we who are left alive and remaining shall join them.”

The futurists do not have any of the chronology right. They are wrong about it all!

Jack

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
You are so sure of yourself but so wrong.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2009,06:43)

Hi TT, You are so sure of yourself but so wrong.

I am a former futurist Nick. As Keith I earned my degree at two Bible Colleges. Both were Futurist. I began to question Futurism and so I studied at an “orthodox” Preterist Seminary. It took me a total of 20 years to let every remnant of Futurism go. I could not let it all go at once. Now I am quite sure it's ALL wrong!

I am not expecting that Keith or anyone here will convert to Preterism. But I would expect that Keith would visit the issues anew and approach eschatology as he expects you to approach Christology by considering the whole counsel of God. I am disapointed somewhat that Keith is clinging to choice scriptures as do you anti-trinitarian novices.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Your pursuit of worldly understanding has not taught you WHO God is but only puffed you up and confused you it seems.

Back to basics as your qualifications have no heavenly merit do they?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2009,07:11)

Hi TT, Your pursuit of worldly understanding has not taught you WHO god is but only puffed you up and confused you it seems. Back to basics as your qualifications have no heavenly merit do they?

Nick,
Look who's talking. Your god “takes His crop and moves on.” I still get a kick out of that one.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Are you among the crop?
The weeds are pulled before He takes it.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,14:39)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2009,17:36) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 08 2009,22:10) Paul said that those who were alive and remained AFTERWARDS would be caught up. John was caught up therefore when he died. He acquired his immortal body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). His earthly body was eaten by the bugs. Wrong Jack, read Paul’s words again… For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that “we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep“. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and “the dead in Christ shall rise first“: “Then we which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air“: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:15-17 Do you see it Jack…? “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together “with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air“: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. There is no interval of time between the resurrection of the saints and the catching away with those who are alive! If Jesus came in 70AD then John missed the catching away and Paul’s words are a lie! WJ Keith, No Keith! The NIV correctly says “after,” “After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” Young's Literal Translation says that those who are alive and are “remaining over” “then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;” The verb “meno” is a PARTICIPLE which expresses CONTINOUS action. Young's correctly translates it as such. Paul said that we who are alive and remaining over shall be caught up. These are all those who have lived since Christ returned in ad70. We are those who are remaining (continuous action) and will be caught up. We will not go down to hades to sleep as those saints before Christ returned. We will be caught up through the clouds to meet Jesus. It does not say that we will go together with the dead. Paul said that the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST. Afterwards, we who are alive and remaining will be caught up to join them. You misunderstand the word “ama.” The NEB says this, “…then we who are left alive shall join them….” Paul used “epeita” which means “afterwards.” He said, “Afterwards, we who are left alive and remaining shall join them.” The futurists do not have any of the chronology right. They are wrong about it all! Jack

Jack

What does “…SHALL BE **CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS**, to meet the Lord in the air“: mean?

How can it be any clearer!

**CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS**,

“TOGETHER WITH THEM” Jack!

KJV
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,

NKJV
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

NLT
together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds

NIV
will be caught up together with them in the clouds

ESV
will be caught up together with them in the clouds

NASB
will be caught up together with them in the clouds

RSV
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

ASV
shall together with them be caught up in the clouds

DBY
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

WEB
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

HNV
will be caught up together with them in the clouds

Jack even Young’s translation says the same thing…

YNG
together with them shall be caught away in clouds

Jack it doesn't say they will be caught up together “to be” with them, it says, “together with them shall be caught up in the clouds“

The clear meaning of the text is the dead in Christ will rise first then those alive “together” are caught up in the clouds!

Barnes' Notes on the New Testament explains this very well…

Shall rise first. That is, before the living shall be changed. A doctrine similar to this was held by the Jews. “Resch Lachisch said, Those who die in the land of Israel, shall rise first in the days of the Messiah.” See Wetstein, in loc. It is implied in all this description, that the interval between their resurrection and the change which will occur to the living, will be brief, or that the one will rapidly succeed the other. See Barnes ” :”.

(So this could not be interpreted to mean those who die in Christ in future generations.)

{a} “the Lord himself” Matthew 24:30,31
{b} “first” Revelation 20:5,6

Verse 17. Then we which are alive. Those who shall then be alive. See 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The word here rendered then, (\~epeita\~) does not necessarily mean that this would occur immediately. It properly marks succession in time, and means afterwards, next, next in the order of events, Luke 16:7; Galatians 1:21; James 4:14. There may be a considerable interval between the resurrection of the pious and the time when the living shall be caught up to meet the Lord, for the change is to take place in them which will fit them to ascend with those who have been raised. The meaning is, that after the dead are raised, or the next thing in order, they and the living will ascend to meet the Lord. The proper meaning of the word, however, denotes a succession so close as to exclude the idea of a long interval in which other important transactions would occur, such an interval, for example, as would be involved in a long personal reign of the Redeemer on earth. The word demands this interpretation–that the next thing in order, after the resurrection of the righteous, will be their being caught up with the living, with an appropriate change, into the air–though, as has been remarked, it will admit of the supposition of such a brief, momentary interval (\~en atomw, en riph ofyalmou,\~ 1 Corinthians 15:51,52) as shall be necessary to prepare for it. Source

AT Robertson the world renowned Greek Grammarian writes…

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Then (epeita). The next step, not the identical time (tote), but immediately afterwards. Together with them (ama sun autoiß). Note both ama (at the same time) and sun (together with) with the associative instrumental case autoiß (the risen saints). Shall be caught up (arpaghsomeqa). Second future passive indicative of arpazw, old ve
rb to seize, to carry off like Latin rapio. To meet the Lord in the air (eiß apanthsin tou Kuriou eiß aera). This special Greek idiom is common in the LXX like the Hebrew, but Polybius has it also and it occurs in the papyri (Moulton, Proleg., p. 14, n. 3). This rapture of the saints (both risen and changed) is a glorious climax to Paul's argument of consolation. And so (kai outwß). This is the outcome, to be forever with the Lord, whether with a return to earth or with an immediate departure for heaven Paul does not say. To be with Christ is the chief hope of Paul's life (1 Thessalonians 5:10; Philippians 1:23; Colossians 3:4; 2 Corinthians 5:8).  Source

Should we believe the Preterist over the clear meaning of the text and the testimony of experts?

I don't think so!

Keith

[Is 1:18]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 13 2009,06:24)

Jack What does “…SHALL BE **CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS**, to meet the Lord in the air“: mean? How can it be any clearer! **CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS**, “TOGETHER WITH THEM” Jack! KJV shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, NKJV shall be caught up together with them in the clouds NLT together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds NIV will be caught up together with them in the clouds ESV will be caught up together with them in the clouds NASB will be caught up together with them in the clouds RSV shall be caught up together with them in the clouds ASV shall together with them be caught up in the clouds DBY shall be caught up together with them in the clouds WEB shall be caught up together with them in the clouds HNV will be caught up together with them in the clouds Jack even Young’s translation says the same thing… YNG together with them shall be caught away in clouds Jack it doesn't say they will be caught up together “to be” with them, it says, “together with them shall be caught up in the clouds“ The clear meaning of the text is the dead in Christ will rise first then those alive “together” are caught up in the clouds! Barnes' Notes on the New Testament explains this very well… Shall rise first. That is, before the living shall be changed. A doctrine similar to this was held by the Jews. “Resch Lachisch said, Those who die in the land of Israel, shall rise first in the days of the Messiah.” See Wetstein, in loc. It is implied in all this description, that the interval between their resurrection and the change which will occur to the living, will be brief, or that the one will rapidly succeed the other. See Barnes ” :”. (So this could not be interpreted to mean those who die in Christ.) {a} “the Lord himself” Matthew 24:30,31 {b} “first” Revelation 20:5,6 Verse 17. Then we which are alive. Those who shall then be alive. See 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The word here rendered then, (\~epeita\~) does not necessarily mean that this would occur immediately. It properly marks succession in time, and means afterwards, next, next in the order of events, Luke 16:7; Galatians 1:21; James 4:14. There may be a considerable interval between the resurrection of the pious and the time when the living shall be caught up to meet the Lord, for the change is to take place in them which will fit them to ascend with those who have been raised. The meaning is, that after the dead are raised, or the next thing in order, they and the living will ascend to meet the Lord. The proper meaning of the word, however, denotes a succession so close as to exclude the idea of a long interval in which other important transactions would occur, such an interval, for example, as would be involved in a long personal reign of the Redeemer on earth. The word demands this interpretation–that the next thing in order, after the resurrection of the righteous, will be their being caught up with the living, with an appropriate change, into the air–though, as has been remarked, it will admit of the supposition of such a brief, momentary interval (\~en atomw, en riph ofyalmou,\~ 1 Corinthians 15:51,52) as shall be necessary to prepare for it. Source AT Robertson the world renowned Greek Grammarian writes… Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament Then (epeita). The next step, not the identical time (tote), but immediately afterwards. Together with them (ama sun autoiß). Note both ama (at the same time) and sun (together with) with the associative instrumental case autoiß (the risen saints). Shall be caught up (arpaghsomeqa). Second future passive indicative of arpazw, old verb to seize, to carry off like Latin rapio. To meet the Lord in the air (eiß apanthsin tou Kuriou eiß aera). This special Greek idiom is common in the LXX like the Hebrew, but Polybius has it also and it occurs in the papyri (Moulton, Proleg., p. 14, n. 3). This rapture of the saints (both risen and changed) is a glorious climax to Paul's argument of consolation. And so (kai outwß). This is the outcome, to be forever with the Lord, whether with a return to earth or with an immediate departure for heaven Paul does not say. To be with Christ is the chief hope of Paul's life (1 Thessalonians 5:10; Philippians 1:23; Colossians 3:4; 2 Corinthians 5:8).  Source Should we believe the Preterist over the clear meaning of the text and the testimony of experts? I don't think so! Keith

Excellent post. And thanks for linking that great website!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 13 2009,01:59)

Excellent post. And thanks for linking that great website!

Hi Paul

Thanks! When I found this sight I was reminded how a while back you had purchased AT Robertsons book! But now it is so much easier to search his work on line.

I still want to get his book for my library though!

Blessing Keith

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,11:39)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2009,17:36) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 08 2009,22:10) Paul said that those who were alive and remained AFTERWARDS would be caught up. John was caught up therefore when he died. He acquired his immortal body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). His earthly body was eaten by the bugs. Wrong Jack, read Paul’s words again… For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that “we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep“. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and “the dead in Christ shall rise first“: “Then we which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air“: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:15-17 Do you see it Jack…? “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together “with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air“: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. There is no interval of time between the resurrection of the saints and the catching away with those who are alive! If Jesus came in 70AD then John missed the catching away and Pauls words are a lie! WJ Keith, No Keith! The NIV correctly says “after,” “After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” Young's Literal Translation says that those who are alive and are “remaining over” “then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;” The verb “meno” is a PARTICIPLE which expresses CONTINOUS action. Young's correctly translates it as such. Paul said that we who are alive and remaining over shall be caught up. These are all those who have lived since Christ returned in ad70. We are those who are remaining (continuous action) and will be caught up. We will not go down to hades to sleep as those saints before Christ returned. We will be caught up through the clouds to meet Jesus. It does not say that we will go together with the dead. Paul said that the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST. Afterwards, we who are alive and remaining will be caught up to join them. You misunderstand the word “ama.” The NEB says this, “…then we who are left alive shall join them….” Paul used “epeita” which means “afterwards.” He said, “Afterwards, we who are left alive and remaining shall join them.” The futurists do not have any of the chronology right. They are wrong about it all! Jack

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

King James Bible
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

American King James Version
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain to the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

American Standard Version
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept.

Darby Bible Translation
(For this we say to you in the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord, are in no way to anticipate those who have fallen asleep;

English Revised Version
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

Webster's Bible Translation
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain to the coming of the Lord shall not precede them who are asleep.

World English Bible
For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.

Young's Literal Translation
for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living — who do remain over to the presence of the Lord — may not precede those asleep,

New Living Translation
I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet him ahead of those who are in their graves.

New International Version
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

English Standard Version
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,* that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
Footnote:
* Or by the word of the Lord

Hebrew Names Version
For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,12:08)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2009,06:43) Hi TT, You are so sure of yourself but so wrong. I am a former futurist Nick. As Keith I earned my degree at two Bible Colleges. Both were Futurist. I began to question Futurism and so I studied at an “orthodox” Preterist Seminary. It took me a total of 20 years to let every remnant of Futurism go. I could not let it all go at once. Now I am quite sure it's ALL wrong! I am not expecting that Keith or anyone here will convert to Preterism. But I would expect that Keith would visit the issues anew and approach eschatology as he expects you to approach Christology by considering the whole counsel of God. I am disapointed somewhat that Keith is clinging to choice scriptures as do you anti-trinitarian novices. thinker

And I thought I was the only novice here.

TT, you seem rather puffed up in yourself. Let some air out of that sail. and get back on a steady course.

[Constitutionalist]

There is only a futurist view:

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22-24 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

2Peter 3:7-13 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Then all these things shall be dissolved, what manner ought ye to be in holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of 'Elohim, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-8 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from 'Elohim out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of 'Elohim with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and 'Elohim himself shall be with them, their 'Elohim. And 'Elohim shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his 'Elohim, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Foolish is any other thought.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 12 2009,14:24)

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,14:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2009,17:36) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 08 2009,22:10) Paul said that those who were alive and remained AFTERWARDS would be caught up. John was caught up therefore when he died. He acquired his immortal body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). His earthly body was eaten by the bugs. Wrong Jack, read Paul’s words again… For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that “we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep“. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and “the dead in Christ shall rise first“: “Then we which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air“: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:15-17 Do you see it Jack…? “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together “with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air“: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. There is no interval of time between the resurrection of the saints and the catching away with those who are alive! If Jesus came in 70AD then John missed the catching away and Paul’s words are a lie! WJ Keith, No Keith! The NIV correctly says “after,” “After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” Young's Literal Translation says that those who are alive and are “remaining over” “then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;” The verb “meno” is a PARTICIPLE which expresses CONTINOUS action. Young's correctly translates it as such. Paul said that we who are alive and remaining over shall be caught up. These are all those who have lived since Christ returned in ad70. We are those who are remaining (continuous action) and will be caught up. We will not go down to hades to sleep as those saints before Christ returned. We will be caught up through the clouds to meet Jesus. It does not say that we will go together with the dead. Paul said that the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST. Afterwards, we who are alive and remaining will be caught up to join them. You misunderstand the word “ama.” The NEB says this, “…then we who are left alive shall join them….” Paul used “epeita” which means “afterwards.” He said, “Afterwards, we who are left alive and remaining shall join them.” The futurists do not have any of the chronology right. They are wrong about it all! Jack Jack What does “…SHALL BE **CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS**, to meet the Lord in the air“: mean? How can it be any clearer! **CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS**, “TOGETHER WITH THEM” Jack! KJV shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, NKJV shall be caught up together with them in the clouds NLT together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds NIV will be caught up together with them in the clouds ESV will be caught up together with them in the clouds NASB will be caught up together with them in the clouds RSV shall be caught up together with them in the clouds ASV shall together with them be caught up in the clouds DBY shall be caught up together with them in the clouds WEB shall be caught up together with them in the clouds HNV will be caught up together with them in the clouds Jack even Young’s translation says the same thing… YNG together with them shall be caught away in clouds Jack it doesn't say they will be caught up together “to be” with them, it says, “together with them shall be caught up in the clouds“ The clear meaning of the text is the dead in Christ will rise first then those alive “together” are caught up in the clouds! Barnes' Notes on the New Testament explains this very well… Shall rise first. That is, before the living shall be changed. A doctrine similar to this was held by the Jews. “Resch Lachisch said, Those who die in the land of Israel, shall rise first in the days of the Messiah.” See Wetstein, in loc. It is implied in all this description, that the interval between their resurrection and the change which will occur to the living, will be brief, or that the one will rapidly succeed the other. See Barnes ” :”. (So this could not be interpreted to mean those who die in Christ in future generations.) {a} “the Lord himself” Matthew 24:30,31 {b} “first” Revelation 20:5,6 Verse 17. Then we which are alive. Those who shall then be alive. See 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The word here rendered then, (\~epeita\~) does not necessarily mean that this would occur immediately. It properly marks succession in time, and means afterwards, next, next in the order of events, Luke 16:7; Galatians 1:21; James 4:14. There may be a considerable interval between the resurrection of the pious and the time when the living shall be caught up to meet the Lord, for the change is to take place in them which will fit them to ascend with those who have been raised. The meaning is, that after the dead are raised, or the next thing in order, they and the living will ascend to meet the Lord. The proper meaning of the word, however, denotes a succession so close as to exclude the idea of a long interval in which other important transactions would occur, such an interval, for example, as would be involved in a long personal reign of the Redeemer on earth. The word demands this interpretation–that the next thing in order, after the resurrection of the righteous, will be their being caught up with the living, with an appropriate change, into the air–though, as has been remarked, it will admit of the supposition of such a brief, momentary interval (\~en atomw, en riph ofyalmou,\~ 1 Corinthians 15:51,52) as shall be necessary to prepare for it. Source AT Robertson the world renowned Greek Grammarian writes… Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament Then (epeita). The next step, not the identical time (tote), but immediately afterwards. Together with them ( ama sun autoiß). Note both ama (at the same time) and sun (together with) with the associative instrumental case autoiß (the risen saints). Shall be caught up (arpaghsomeqa). Second future passive indicative of arpazw, old verb to seize, to carry off like Latin rapio. To meet the Lord in the air (eiß apanthsin tou Kuriou eiß aera). This special Greek idiom is common in the LXX like the Hebrew, but Polybius has it also and it occurs in the papyri (Moulton, Proleg., p. 14, n. 3). This rapture of the saints (both risen and changed) is a glorious climax to Paul's argument of consolation. And so (kai outwß). This is the outcome, to be forever with the Lord, whether with a return to earth or with an immediate departure for heaven Paul does not say. To be with Christ is the chief hope of Paul's life (1 Thessalonians 5:10; Philippians 1:23; Colossians 3:4; 2 Corinthians 5:8).  Source Should we believe the Preterist over the clear meaning of the text and the testimony of experts? I don't think so! Keith

Hi All

The Preterist view IMO denys the resurrection of the saints for according to the Preterist the saints go straight to heaven and recieve a body and their body that they live in is never raised from the dead!

The clear teaching of the scriptures is Jesus is the firstfruits and firstborn from the dead. Meaning he is the prototype that all saints will follow after.

Our bodies will be changed and fashioned like unto his glorious body when he returns!

This is the resurrection and the blessed hope!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

WorshippingJesus said:

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What does “…SHALL BE **CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS**, to meet the Lord in the air”: mean?

Keith,
What does the “dead in Christ shall rise FIRST mean?” You offer me futurist translation and just expect me to accept it?

WJ:

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Barnes' Notes on the New Testament explains this very well… Shall rise first. That is, before the living shall be changed. A doctrine similar to this was held by the Jews. “Resch Lachisch said, Those who die in the land of Israel, shall rise first in the days of the Messiah.” See Wetstein, in loc. It is implied in all this description, that the interval between their resurrection and the change which will occur to the living, will be brief, or that the one will rapidly succeed the other. See Barnes ” :”. (So this could not be interpreted to mean those who die in Christ in future generations.)

You seem to be saying that Barnes himself believed the source he cited. Below you will see that Barnes thought that there could be a “considerable interval.” There is nothing in the text that supports the futurist's claim that the catching away of the living occurs in a brief interval afterwards. There is no purpose in the dead rising “first” if the living are caught up immediately afterwards. Why not just do it all at once?

The idea that the interval is brief is out of accord with the immediate context of the book. According to futurists Paul said that Christ will bring the dead with Him when He comes,

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For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 4:14

Now this certainly destroys the futurist theory of “together with” doesn't it? If this is future, then there is definitely a significant interval and the living cannot be caught up “together with” the dead. And how long will the dead be with Jesus before He comes back with them to catch up the living?

The NEB rendering of “ama” stands. Paul said that the living would be caught up to “join them.” The NEB was done by a team of futurist scholars.

Even Barnes who you invoked says that there may be a considerable interval:

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There may be a considerable interval between the resurrection of the pious and the time when the living shall be caught up to meet the Lord….The meaning is, that after the dead are raised, or the next thing in order, they and the living will ascend to meet the Lord (p. 48)

The futurists are also out of accord with the larger context of the book. Paul said that the Lord would preserve them blameless AT the Lord's coming.

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Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless AT the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 5:23

“This implies the continuance of their corporeal life up until that event“ (Russell, p. 170).

But note how Barnes butchers up Paul's statement:

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“The prayer is, that they might be entirely holy, and be kept form transgression, until the Lord Jesus should come; that is, until he should come either to remove them by death, OR to wind up the affairs of the world” p. 63)

How can you expect a rational person to take such commentary seriously? Barnes engages in all that futurist double speak. He is saying that the coming of the Lord may mean two things: either His actual coming or His “coming” at every man's physical death. But Paul was speaking about Christ's coming as a single event. Futurists just won't let it mean what it says. They always assign a DUAL meaning to texts like these.

Paul's statement about their being preserved to the coming of the Lord cannot mean both His actual coming and a metaphorical “coming” at death.

I can no longer take futurists seriously because of all their double talk. So I am not at all impressed by their “scholarship” in the area of eschatology.

Paul said that they would be preserved to the coming of the Lord. So if your “brief interval” theory is correct, then the saints were raptured. Who then preached the gospel after they were caught up?

Do you think I have not looked at the scholarship? I have Barnes and many other futurist scholars in my library. I have preterist scholars also. The contradictions in the futurist scholarship you provide are clearly evident to the one who is objective. If the dead are raised “first” then there can be no catching up of the living “together with” them even if that interval be “brief.” And the coming of the Lord cannot mean both His actual coming and also a metaphorical coming at each believer's death. Paul speaks of Christ's coming in the RESTRICTED TERMS of a single event.

The NEB has gained the correct sense in rendering it “we shall be caught up to join them”. The NEB is futurist! Was not the NEB done by a team of scholars?

Let me offer you a preterist scholar:

J. Stuart Russell:

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“The legitimate inference from the words of St. Paul in verse 15, 'we who are alive and unto the coming of the Lord,' is that he anticipated it as possible, and even probable, that his readers and himself would be alive at the coming og the Lord. Such is the natural and OBVIOUS interpretation of his language” (The Parousia, p. 166-167)

Futurist Dean Alford admits the preterist interpretation:

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“Then beyond question, he himself expected to be alive, together with the majority of those to whom he was writing, at the Lord's coming. For we cannot for a moment accept the evasion of Theodoret and the majority of the ancient commentators (viz. the apostle does not speak of himself personally, but of those who should beliving at that period), but we must take the words in their only grammatical meaning, that “we which are alive and remain” [ο& #7985; ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι] are a class distinguished from “they that sleep” [τοὺς κοιμηθέντας] by being yet in the flesh when Christ comes, in which class by prefexing “we” [ἡμεῖς] he includes his readers and himself. That this was his expectation we know from other passages, especially from 2 corinthians. v.' ” Greek Testament by Aford

Then Alford goes on to say that Paul was mistaken.

An interval is an interval! Geez man! And if there was an interval no matter how short then those who are living cannot be caught up “together with” the dead. Therefore, I have no choice but to accept the NEB's rendering of “ama.” And the dead in Christ were to be raised and to come WITH Jesus. So how long was (or will be) the period of time between their resurrection and the catching up of the living?

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
You dwell among the eggheads.
Come and join in the learning by the light of scripture.

[KangarooJack]

Worshippingjesus said:

Quote

Hi All The Preterist view IMO denys the resurrection of the saints for according to the Preterist the saints go straight to heaven and recieve a body and their body that they live in is never raised from the dead! The clear teaching of the scriptures is Jesus is the firstfruits and firstborn from the dead. Meaning he is the prototype that all saints will follow after. Our bodies will be changed and fashioned like unto his glorious body when he returns! This is the resurrection and the blessed hope! WJ

TO ALL:

The resurrection was the blessed hope of the apostolic saints. They were indeed raised from the dead. Paul did not say exactly that Christ was the firstfruits of the dead meaning all saints. He said that Christ was the firstfruits of them that “slept.” Then he said, “We shall not all sleep.” So WJ ought to be taking issue with Paul rather than me. Paul said that Christ was the firstfruits of those that “slept” and not of those who will not sleep.

We do not descend to hades as all saints did from Adam to AD70. Christ returned and emptied hades of all His people. He raised them up from hades and then cast hades into the lake of fire.

Since that time His people do not “sleep.” The promise given to us is that we will be “caught up” to meet Him to assume our eternal bodies from heaven and forever enjoy Jesus in our immortal condition.

Keith,
Please see my post above.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
None has been raised to glory since Jesus left.
The lake of fire still beckons for the goats.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 14 2009,07:34)

Hi TT, None has been raised to glory since Jesus left. The lake of fire still beckons for the goats.

You're right that the lake of fire still beckons. This is true also even in the new earth (Rev. 21:8) and we are in the new earth.

You're wrong on the rest of it.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
You stand alone in your view of right and wrong.
Still anyone who can swallow the trinity would find the rest of this odd stuff easy don't you think?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,11:27)

Hi TT, You stand alone in your view of right and wrong. Still anyone who can swallow the trinity would find the rest of this odd stuff easy don't you think?

Nick,
If you were a studious man then you would try to refute me. But as CA put it all you have to offer here are “peanut gallery” remarks.

Did anyone ever tell you that you are annoying like a nagging woman?

thinker

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