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Hi TT,
Really?
But your hopes died when the door was closed?
Your commonsense does not seem to be commonly accepted here?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 06 2009,03:52) Hi TT,
Your COMMONSENSE view seems to lack support.
Nick,
Do you really believe that every eye in both hemispheres could witness Jesus descend somwhere in Jerusalem?What is your problem with believing that men would witness His coming through a sign just as He said? And where does the new testament say that He would come all the way down to earth? After He would return the living are caught up “in the clouds.” Why would they caught UP to the clouds to meet the Lord if He is on the earth?
thinker
Hi TT,
Where does it say he returns immediately to earth?
The earth is in great turmoil so he meets with them in the air till the great tribulation is past.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 06 2009,08:02) Hi TT,
Really?
But your hopes died when the door was closed?
Your commonsense does not seem to be commonly accepted here?
Nick,
Produce your evidence that the door closed. In John's vision the water of life is still being offered on the new earth which is AFTER the Lord's return. There will ALWAYS be salvation Nick. Praise God!You forgot to ask me if I care that my views are not accepted here. Those who understand the true spiritual nature of the kingdom have always been in the super minority. Those adhere to the carnal nature of the kingdom like you side with the Jews who rejected Jesus. I do not imply that you reject Jesus but only that you side with those who rejected Him on the nature of the kingdom.
Does this not bother you?
thinker
Hi TT,
When God dwells with his sons on the renewed earth the waters of life indeed will still flow.
But all will be one with God and His Son and no more salvations are needed.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 06 2009,08:14) Hi TT,
Where does it say he returns immediately to earth?
The earth is in great turmoil so he meets with them in the air till the great tribulation is past.
Nick,
Where does it say that He returns to earth at any point? You did not answer my question about their seeing the “sign” of the Son of Man in heaven.The tribulation is past. John himself was in it:
“I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” (Rev. 1:9)
John assured the seven churches that he was their fellow partaker in THE TRIBULATION.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 06 2009,08:19) Hi TT,
When God dwells with his sons on the renewed earth the waters of life indeed will still flow.
But all will be one with God and His Son and no more salvations are needed.
Nick,
Revelation 21:24 says that those who walk in the light of the city “SHALL BE SAVED.”When are you going to give some scriptural proof for all the futurist stuff you regurgitate?
Is the new earth of Isaiah 65-66 a different new earth?
thinker
Hi TT,
No salvation in Rev 21.24-which bible are you using?
God saves people every day in many little ways and it does not always mean eternal salvation anyway.THINKER- We are not living in the new earth. The new heaven and earth are going to pass away. And the new heaven and earth will ascend down.(really the new earth is heaven) Paradise again like it was with adam and Eve. And scripture does say Jesus will come down on the Mt. of Olives and it will split in half. And scripture also says we will see him coming in the clouds. It also says with mine own eyes will I see God! Being caught up in the clouds is during the rapture for Christians when God pours out his wrath. And those in Rev. dressed in white robes that come back with him are the Christians who are already with God. And we will have a glorified body. Our pastor says he beleives we will be like Christ, and will be able to reconize our familys. But those who did not make it, Ive heard people say we wont remember because there is no more sadness, no tears, no sickness no more. And those that made it to heaven are our true family. I'll find scripts. if you would like. Jesus has not returned , thats what everyone is waiting on! God bless!
In Jesus's first coming, he was the suffering Servant. In His second coming, Jesus will be the conquering King. In His second coming,He will arrive with the armies of heaven at His side.
After Jesus ascended into heaven, the angels declared to the apostles, “‘Men of Galilee,’ they said, ‘why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven’” (Acts 1:11). Zechariah 14:4 says the location of the second coming is the Mount of Olives. Matthew 24:30 says, “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.” Titus 2:13 says the second coming wilk be a “glorious appearing.”Revelation 19:11-16, is of second coming- “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter.’ He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”
THINKER-(gotquesitons.org)The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.
The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.
The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:
1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).
2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).
5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?
1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).
3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).
The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire. Thinker, JESUS HAS NOT RE-TURNED!! thats what we are all waiting for.!!
Katjo
Quote (katjo @ Nov. 06 2009,22:19) THINKER-(gotquesitons.org)The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming.
The word “rapture” is not found in the scriptures.“The day of the Lord” in the New Testament and “the second coming of Christ” are synonymous!
There are not three comings!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 05 2009,11:09) WorshippingJesus said: Quote “John did not meet him in the air”? So John is not in heaven? John was caught up “in the spirit.” Paul said that after Christ returned those who are alive and remain would be caught up “in the air” (Greek, “breath). When John died he was caught up in the spirit to meet the Lord and he was given his eternal, immortal body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5).
thinker
JackYou have your facts mixed up! Of course John is in heaven but his body has not been ressurected yet, for he is with the rest that are asleep! Rev 6:9
The scriptures clearly teach that the catching away for the saints is at his coming.
John wasn't caught away in 70AD.
First the dead in Christ will be raised then we which are alive will be “caught up together” with them to meet the Lord in the air!
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that “we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep“. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air“: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:15-17
Notice Jack they will be caught up in the clouds, which is where you say Jesus and the Father are. So in other words all the saints are in the clouds also, right?
Why would John or any of the Martyrs after 70 AD have to wait until they died to recieve their new bodys while some already had?
The text clearly says that those who remained were caught up together with those who were dead in Christ!
According to you, John and those who were alive at his coming after 70AD had to be martyred or wait until they died!
WJ
W.J. I know there is not three comings. The rapture and resurrection are the same thing!
Worshippingjesus said:
Quote The scriptures clearly teach that the catching away for the saints is at his coming. John wasn't caught away in 70AD.
First the dead in Christ will be raised then we which are alive will be “caught up together” with them to meet the Lord in the air!
Hi Keith,
I never said that John was caught away in ad70. I said that he was caught away when he died. The catching up does not occur at His coming. It occurs AFTER His coming. Paul used the word “epeita” which means “afterwards” and includes an interval of time.In 1 Corinthians 15:23 Paul said that Christ was risen and AFTERWARDS they who are His at His coming. The word here is “epeita” as in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. There was an interval of time between Christ's resurrection and the resurrection of His people.
Quote But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
We see that “epeita” functions to convey an interval of time between Christ's resurrection and the resurrection of His people. So there is an interval of time between the resurrection of His people at His coming and the catching up of those who are living.Paul said that those who were alive and remained AFTERWARDS would be caught up. John was caught up therefore when he died. He acquired his immortal body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). His earthly body was eaten by the bugs.
You also will be caught up AFTER His coming (in ad70). When you die you will be caught up to your immortal body from heaven and your earthly body will be eaten by the bugs. Before Christ returned in ad70 believers slept in hades. They were resurrected from hades to their bodies from heaven when He returned. Those who are alive AFTERWARDS are caught up to their bodies from heaven. We don't sleep in hades now because hades was cast into the lake of fire when He returned (Rev. 20).
Again, Paul did not say that the living are caught away at His coming. He said that they are caught up AFTERWARDS using the word “epeita” which functions to convey and interval of time. Since Christ's return in ad70 each man is caught up at his physical death.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 08 2009,22:10) Worshippingjesus said: Quote The scriptures clearly teach that the catching away for the saints is at his coming. John wasn't caught away in 70AD.
First the dead in Christ will be raised then we which are alive will be “caught up together” with them to meet the Lord in the air!
Hi Keith,
I never said that John was caught away in ad70. I said that he was caught away when he died. The catching up does not occur at His coming. It occurs AFTER His coming. Paul used the word “epeita” which means “afterwards” and includes an interval of time.In 1 Corinthians 15:23 Paul said that Christ was risen and AFTERWARDS they who are His at His coming. The word here is “epeita” as in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. There was an interval of time between Christ's resurrection and the resurrection of His people.
Quote But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
We see that “epeita” functions to convey an interval of time between Christ's resurrection and the resurrection of His people. So there is an interval of time between the resurrection of His people at His coming and the catching up of those who are living.Paul said that those who were alive and remained AFTERWARDS would be caught up. John was caught up therefore when he died. He acquired his immortal body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). His earthly body was eaten by the bugs.
You also will be caught up AFTER His coming (in ad70). When you die you will be caught up to your immortal body from heaven and your earthly body will be eaten by the bugs. Before Christ returned in ad70 believers slept in hades. They were resurrected from hades to their bodies from heaven when He returned. Those who are alive AFTERWARDS are caught up to their bodies from heaven. We don't sleep in hades now because hades was cast into the lake of fire when He returned (Rev. 20).
Again, Paul did not say that the living are caught away at His coming. He said that they are caught up AFTERWARDS using the word “epeita” which functions to convey and interval of time. Since Christ's return in ad70 each man is caught up at his physical death.
thinker
JackI don't have much time these days to keep up with all this, but you just denied the “resurrection” in my opinion!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 08 2009,22:10) Paul said that those who were alive and remained AFTERWARDS would be caught up. John was caught up therefore when he died. He acquired his immortal body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). His earthly body was eaten by the bugs.
Wrong Jack, read Paul’s words again…For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that “we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep“. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and “the dead in Christ shall rise first“: “Then we which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air“: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:15-17
Do you see it Jack…?
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together “with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air“: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
There is no interval of time between the resurrection of the saints and the catching away with those who are alive!
If Jesus came in 70AD then John missed the catching away and Pauls words are a lie!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2009,16:41) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 08 2009,22:10) Worshippingjesus said: Quote The scriptures clearly teach that the catching away for the saints is at his coming. John wasn't caught away in 70AD.
First the dead in Christ will be raised then we which are alive will be “caught up together” with them to meet the Lord in the air!
Hi Keith,
I never said that John was caught away in ad70. I said that he was caught away when he died. The catching up does not occur at His coming. It occurs AFTER His coming. Paul used the word “epeita” which means “afterwards” and includes an interval of time.In 1 Corinthians 15:23 Paul said that Christ was risen and AFTERWARDS they who are His at His coming. The word here is “epeita” as in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. There was an interval of time between Christ's resurrection and the resurrection of His people.
Quote But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
We see that “epeita” functions to convey an interval of time between Christ's resurrection and the resurrection of His people. So there is an interval of time between the resurrection of His people at His coming and the catching up of those who are living.Paul said that those who were alive and remained AFTERWARDS would be caught up. John was caught up therefore when he died. He acquired his immortal body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). His earthly body was eaten by the bugs.
You also will be caught up AFTER His coming (in ad70). When you die you will be caught up to your immortal body from heaven and your earthly body will be eaten by the bugs. Before Christ returned in ad70 believers slept in hades. They were resurrected from hades to their bodies from heaven when He returned. Those who are alive AFTERWARDS are caught up to their bodies from heaven. We don't sleep in hades now because hades was cast into the lake of fire when He returned (Rev. 20).
Again, Paul did not say that the living are caught away at His coming. He said that they are caught up AFTERWARDS using the word “epeita” which functions to convey and interval of time. Since Christ's return in ad70 each man is caught up at his physical death.
thinker
JackI don't have much time these days to keep up with all this, but you just denied the “resurrection” in my opinion!
WJ
Keith,
You say that I deny the resurrection. Do you deny that your body will be eaten by the bugs? The bugs will then be eaten by the birds and the birds will be eaten by predators. The predators will die and will be eaten by the bugs which will be eaten by the birds and so it goes on ad infinitum.Polycarp's body was burned at the stake and vaporized. The bodies of many Christians were burned and used to light the streets of the city of Rome.
What provision has God made for those saints if it is not the body that is “eternal in the heavens” (2 Cor. 4:17-5:5)?
Paul said that these bodies we now have will dissolve back to dust and that we will receive a body that is “eternal in the heavens” (2 Corinthians 4:17-5:5). He said that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 15:50). Futurists just don't think these things through. They have enjoyed prominence for so long because they are scaremongers. They make people think that they are not “orthodox” if they don't accept their creeds.
My faith does not stand in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Jack
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