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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 30 2009,08:09) Hi TT,
You should not limit scripture to your narrow view as God shows it can have other meanings.
So “one Elohim” can have other meanings.
thinker
Hi TT,
ELOHIM can.
Where was ONE elohim in Genesis you quoted?
Or are again you adding logic and inference to make this brew?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 30 2009,08:09) Hi TT,
You should not limit scripture to your narrow view as God shows it can have other meanings.
Correction:So “One God” can have other meanings.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 30 2009,08:45) Hi TT,
God is one, not two or three.
How many deities do you offer now?
And “shortly” does not mean a long time. A “little while” does not mean a long while. And “will not delay” does not mean will tarry.thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 30 2009,03:44) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,11:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2009,18:36) Hi TT,
Really,
And you were the only one that noticed?
He will come back as he left and all eyes will see it.
Nick,
I have asserted numerous times that every eye would see Christ's coming. But this does not imply He would come back to earth. Jesus said that they would see te sign of the Son of Man IN HEAVEN (Matt. 24:30).And THAT GENERATION did see His coming just as He said.
thinker
JackNo, every eye didn't see him! Where are there any writings that say Jesus has returned in the clouds?
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,13:56)
Keith,
Jesus was not a false prophet. He told Caiaphas the high priest that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds,Matthew 26:64 (Today's New International Version)
Quote 64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Jack, notice the words “From now on you will see”. If that literally means “from then on” then it would mean that Jesus was already sitting at the right hand and Caiaphas was seeing his coming in the clouds right then. So this proves nothing for if it could mean 70ad, then it also could mean 2012. So what you are saying is ambiguous because nothing in the text tells us when the “from now on is”!Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,13:56)
I chose the TNIV because it is closest to the original meaning. Jesus told Caiaphas, “from THIS TIME FORWARD you will see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of God and coming in the clouds of heaven.”
When is “from this time forward”?Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,13:56)
As to your question about no historical record please note that Jesus said that Caiaphas would see Christ sitting on the right hand of God.
Yes, he will see him at the resurrection of the dead when he comes in the clouds with the Holy Angels.Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen Rev 1:7
looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one “like a son of man”* with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Rev 14:14
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 30 2009,03:44)
There is no historical record of Christ's session at God's right hand. Yet Jesus told Caiaphas that he would “see” Him sitting at the right hand of God. Likewise he would “see” Jesus coming by a sign in heaven. “Then they shall see the SIGN of the Son of Man in heaven” (Matt. 24:30).
What do you mean there is no historical record of seeing Jesus at Gods right hand?Stephen saw him standing at his right hand, and the early church Fathers testify of Jesus being at the right hand of God because of the scriptures. But scriptures give us no time of his return, and there is no historical record of Jesus coming in the clouds! This should concern you Jack since Preterism didn’t appear until the 1500s!
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,11:13) Just as Christ's session at God's right hand was seen by a “sign” so there was a “sign” in heaven that announced His return. Neither the session at God's right hand nor the coming was subject to historical verification. Jack
You quote Matt 24:30, let’s look at the context…See, I have told you ahead of time. “So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.” For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man”. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. “Immediately after the distress of those days ” '”the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken”.' “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. “They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory”. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matt 24:25-31
Jesus is saying if anyone says he is here or there don't believe them because his return would be obvious and history would have spoke of it.
The Fathers would have verified that the sun was darkened, and the moon did not give its light; and the stars fell from the sky, and the heavenly bodies was shaken and that his Angels gathered his elect.
But history shows that the saints were never taken up but continued to die under persecution!
Jack, John lived well past 70ad, why was he left? He wrote the Gospel of John and the Epistles long after 70ad and makes no mention of Christ returning in the clouds!
Blessings WJ
Thought this might help out Nick- Something i had studyed .EL, ELOAH: God “mighty, strong, prominent” (Genesis 7:1; Isaiah 9:6) – Etymologically, El appears to mean power, as in “I have power to do something” (Genesis 31:29). El is associated with other qualities, such as integrity (Numbers 23:19), jealousy (Deuteronomy 5:9), and compassion (Nehemiah 9:31), but the root idea of might remains.
ELOHIM: God “Creator, Mighty and Strong” (Genesis 17:7; Jeremiah 31:33) – The plural form of Eloah, which is accommodating of the doctrine of the Trinity. From the Bible’s first sentence, the superlative nature of God’s power is evident as God (Elohim) speaks the world into existence (Genesis 1:1).
EL SHADDAI: “God Almighty,” “The Mighty One of Jacob” (Genesis 49:24; Psalm 132:2,5) – Speaks to God’s ultimate power over all.
ADONAI: “Lord” (Genesis 15:2; Judges 6:15) – Used in place of YHWH, which was thought by the Jews to be too sacred to be uttered by sinful men. In the Old Testament, YHWH is more often used in God’s dealings with His people, while Adonai is used more when He deals with the Gentiles.
YHWH / YAHWEH / JEHOVAH: “LORD” (Deuteronomy 6:4; Daniel 9:14) – Strictly speaking, the only proper name for God. Translated in English Bibles “LORD” (all capitals) to distinguish it from Adonai “Lord.” The revelation of the name is first given to Moses “I Am who I Am” (Exodus 3:14). This name specifies an immediacy, a presence. Yahweh is present, accessible, near to those who call on Him for deliverance (Psalm 107:13), forgiveness (Psalm 25:11) and guidance (Psalm 31:3).
YAHWEH-JIREH: “The Lord will Provide” (Genesis 22:14) – The name memorialized by Abraham when God provided the ram to be sacrificed in place of Isaac.
YAHWEH-RAPHA: “The Lord Who Heals” (Exodus 15:26) – “I am Jehovah who heals you” both in body and soul. In body, by preserving from diseases, and by curing them when afflicted with them and in soul, by pardoning their iniquities.
YAHWEH-NISSI: “The Lord Our Banner” (Exodus 17:15), where banner is understood to be a rallying place. This name commemorates the desert victory over the Amalekites in Exodus 17.
YAHWEH-M'KADDESH: “The Lord Who Sanctifies, Makes Holy” (Leviticus 20:8; Ezekiel 37:28) – God makes it clear that He alone, not the law, could cleanse His people and make them holy.
YAHWEH-SHALOM: “The Lord Our Peace” (Judges 6:24) – The name given by Gideon to the altar he built after the Angel of the Lord assured him he would not die as he thought he would after seeing Him.
YAHWEH-ELOHIM: “LORD God” (Genesis 2:4; Psalm 59:5) – Combination of God’s unique name YHWH and the generic “Lord,” signifying that He is the Lord of Lords.
YAHWEH-TSIDKENU: “The Lord Our Righteousness” (Jeremiah 33:16) – As with YHWH-M’Kaddesh, it is God alone who provides righteousness to man, ultimately in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ, who became sin for us “that we might become the Righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
YAHWEH-ROHI: “The Lord Our Shepherd” (Psalm 23:1) – After David pondered his relationship as a shepherd to his sheep, he realized that was exactly the relationship God had with him, and so he declares “Yahweh-Rohi is my Shepherd. I shall not want” (Psalm 23:1).
YAHWEH-SHAMMAH: “The Lord is There” (Ezekiel 48:35) – The name ascribed to Jerusalem and the Temple there, indicating that the once departed glory of the Lord (Ezekiel 8—11) had returned (Ezekiel 44:1-4).
YAHWEH-SABAOTH: “The Lord of Hosts” (Isaiah 1:24; Psalm 46:7) – “Hosts” means hordes, both of angels and of men. He is Lord of the host of heaven, and of the inhabitants of the earth, of Jews and Gentiles, of rich and poor, master and slave. The name is expressive of the majesty, power, and authority of God and shows that he is able to accomplish what he determines to do.
EL ELYON: “Most High” (Deuteronomy 26:19) – Derived from the Hebrew root for “go up” or “ascend,” so the implication is of that which is the very highest. El Elyon denotes exaltation and speaks of absolute right to lordship.
EL ROI: “God of Seeing” (Genesis 16:13) – The name ascribed to God by Hagar, alone and desperate in the wilderness after being driven out by Sarah (Genesis 16:1-14), when she met the Angel of the Lord and realized she had seen God Himself in a theophany. She realized that El Roi saw her in her distress and testified that He is a God who lives and sees all.
EL-OLAM: “Everlasting God” (Psalm 90:1-3) – God’s nature is without beginning or end, free from all constraints of time and contains within Himself the very cause of time itself. “From everlasting to everlasting, You are God.”
EL-GIBHOR: “Mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6) – The name describing the Messiah, Christ Jesus, in this prophetic portion of Isaiah. As a powerful and mighty warrior, the Messiah, the Mighty God, will accomplish the destruction of God’s enemies and rule with a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15).
here is one more on the new heaven and earth from gotquestions.org, (just like we had studied in bible study). Many people have a misconception of what heaven is truly like. Revelation chapters 21-22 gives us a detailed picture of the new heavens and the new earth. After the events of the end times, the current heavens and earth will be done away with and replaced by the new heavens and new earth. The eternal dwelling place of believers will be the new earth. The new earth is the “heaven” on which we will spend eternity. It is the new earth where the New Jerusalem, the heavenly city, will be located. It is on the new earth that the pearly gates and streets of gold will be.
Heaven—the new earth—is a physical place where we will dwell with glorified physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:35-58). The concept that heaven is “in the clouds” is unbiblical. The concept that we will be “spirits floating around in heaven” is also unbiblical. The heaven that believers will experience will be a new and perfect planet on which we will dwell. The new earth will be free from sin, evil, sickness, suffering, and death. It will likely be similar to our current earth, or perhaps even a re-creation of our current earth, but without the curse of sin.
What about the new heavens? It is important to remember that in the ancient mind, “heavens” referred to the skies and outer space, as well as the realm in which God dwells. So, when Revelation 21:1 refers to the new heavens, it is likely indicating that the entire universe will be created—a new earth, new skies, a new outer space. It seems as if God's heaven will be recreated as well, to give everything in the universe a “fresh start,” whether physical or spiritual. Will we have access to the new heavens in eternity? Possibly, but we will have to wait to find out. May we all allow God’s Word to shape our understanding of heaven.
katjo
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 26 2009,11:28) bodhitharta said: Quote You already believe that Jesus has retuned in 70 AD correct? This is the new earth to you correct?
bd,
Yes Jesus returned in ad70. He said that His generation would not pass away until they saw Him return. And yes we are in the new earth. Tradition has erroneously taught that sin and death will be eradicated in the new earth and so the new earth must be in our future. But the prophecies of Isaiah and John speak quite differently. According to Isaiah there is still aging and dying in the new earth. People still procreate and have children. Sinners live in the new earth too.Isaiah 65:17-23:
Quote 17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.Please note that it speaks about old men, dying, sinners and bringing forth children.
Tradition has taught us that physical death is eradicated in the new earth because Revelation 21:4 says that there will be “no more death.” But the word “death” here refers to “condemnation.” It is not speaking about the eradication of physical death at all. The gospel of John and the writings of Paul frequently define death as “condemnation.”
Furthermore, John's vision also shows that sinners are present in the new earth. They are not in the lake of fire. Sinners are right outsdide the gates of the city and are not permitted to enter into the city (22:14-15). John's vision also says that the gospel is still being offered. It says that the Spirit and the Bride invite men to come and partake of the water of life freely (22:17). The water of life flows from the throne of God in the new Jerusalem.
In other words, the new earth is simply apocalyptic for the covenentally renewed order, that is, the new covenant age.
The only place where sin and death are totally absent is in heaven where God dwells.
thinker
thinkerWhat is sin?
1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
What is the reward for sin?
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Who has the power over death?
Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.Why do we read in revelation?
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
If death and hell/grave are destroyed by destroying the devil, how can you say there is still sin and death in the new world?
For that matter, how can you say, we are in the new world?Georg
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote ack, notice the words “From now on you will see”. If that literally means “from then on” then it would mean that Jesus was already sitting at the right hand and Caiaphas was seeing his coming in the clouds right then. So this proves nothing for if it could mean 70ad, then it also could mean 2012. So what you are saying is ambiguous because nothing in the text tells us when the “from now on is”!
Keith,
Your rendering “from then on” works even better for me. It still means that Caiaphas would see both Christ's session at the right hand of God AND His coming.WJ:
Quote Yes, he will see him at the resurrection of the dead when he comes in the clouds with the Holy Angels.
There is no scripture which says this. The word “see” means the same thing in reference to both Christ's session and His coming. Caiaphas saw Christ's session through the signs of the apostles and he saw Christ's coming through the sign in heaven whatever that was. The word “see” cannot have dual meaning.WJ:
Quote Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen Rev 1:7
Every eye saw Him but through a sign just as Jesus said (matt. 24:30). It is not possible for every eye in both hemispheres to see a body desecending from heaven unless all the TV networks are given advanced notice. The only way every eye could have seen His coming was by a sign.WJ:
Quote What do you mean there is no historical record of seeing Jesus at Gods right hand? Stephen saw him standing at his right hand, and the early church Fathers testify of Jesus being at the right hand of God because of the scriptures. But scriptures give us no time of his return, and there is no historical record of Jesus coming in the clouds!
Come on Keith! By historical record everyone means that an event is verifiable. How do you verify that Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God? You take the biblical record by faith.WJ:
Quote This should concern you Jack since Preterism didn’t appear until the 1500s!
Did you read the thread I started “Preterism in the first century” before you said this?WJ:
Quote Jesus is saying if anyone says he is here or there don't believe them because his return would be obvious and history would have spoke of it.
So by “history” you do mean the verification of an event which Stephens vision was not. If you read Jesus' statement without your futurist glasses you will notice that He was saying the opposite of what you are saying. He was saying that His coming was not to be viewed as “lo he is here” or lo he is there.” He was to come “as lightning shines from the east to the west.”His coming was indeed visible as the lightning from the east to the west. This supports preterism over futurism. For the only way His coming could be universally observed in both hemispheres would be by a “sign.” Or do you think that an angel will give the CEO'S of all the TV Networks advanced notice so they can televise the event for everyone to see?
WJ:
Quote The Fathers would have verified that the sun was darkened, and the moon did not give its light; and the stars fell from the sky, and the heavenly bodies was shaken and that his Angels gathered his elect.
These signs occurred on Pentecost. Peter explicitly said they occurred. Yet no fathers verified them (Acts 2)WJ:
Quote But history shows that the saints were never taken up but continued to die under persecution!
The gathering of the elect occurs through the preaching of the word.WJ:
Quote Jack, John lived well past 70ad, why was he left? He wrote the Gospel of John and the Epistles long after 70ad and makes no mention of Christ returning in the clouds!
You are referring to the futurist “rapture” doctrine which is not at all biblical. Paul said that those who were alive and remained would be caught up AFTER the Lord came and each man would be caught up WHEN HE DIES. John was caught up when he died.Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 01 2009,05:09) WorshippingJesus said: Quote ack, notice the words “From now on you will see”. If that literally means “from then on” then it would mean that Jesus was already sitting at the right hand and Caiaphas was seeing his coming in the clouds right then. So this proves nothing for if it could mean 70ad, then it also could mean 2012. So what you are saying is ambiguous because nothing in the text tells us when the “from now on is”!
Keith,
Your rendering “from then on” works even better for me. It still means that Caiaphas would see both Christ's session at the right hand of God AND His coming.WJ:
Quote Yes, he will see him at the resurrection of the dead when he comes in the clouds with the Holy Angels.
There is no scripture which says this. The word “see” means the same thing in reference to both Christ's session and His coming. Caiaphas saw Christ's session through the signs of the apostles and he saw Christ's coming therough the sign in heaven whatever that was. The word “see” cannot have dual meaning.WJ:
Quote Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen Rev 1:7
Every eye saw Him but through a sign just as Jesus said (matt. 24:30). It is not possible for every eye in both hemispheres to see a body desecending from heaven unless all the TV networks are given advanced notice. The only way every eye could have seen His coming was by a sign.WJ:
Quote What do you mean there is no historical record of seeing Jesus at Gods right hand? Stephen saw him standing at his right hand, and the early church Fathers testify of Jesus being at the right hand of God because of the scriptures. But scriptures give us no time of his return, and there is no historical record of Jesus coming in the clouds!
Come on Keith! By historical record everyone means that an event is verifiable. How do you verify that Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God? You take the biblical record by faith.WJ:
Quote This should concern you Jack since Preterism didn’t appear until the 1500s!
Did you read the thread I started “Preterism in the first century” before you said this?WJ:
Quote Jesus is saying if anyone says he is here or there don't believe them because his return would be obvious and history would have spoke of it.
So by “history” you do mean the verification of an event which Stephens vision was not. If you read Jesus' statement without your futurist glasses you will notice that He was saying the opposite of what you are saying. He was saying that His coming was not to be viewed as “lo he is here” or lo he is there.” He was to come “as lightning shines from the east to the west.”His coming was indeed visible as the lightning from the east to the west. This supports preterism over futurism. For the only way His coming could be universally observed in both hemispheres would be by a “sign.” Or do you think that an angel will give the CEO'S of all the TV Networks advanced notice so they can televise the event for everyone to see?
WJ:
Quote The Fathers would have verified that the sun was darkened, and the moon did not give its light; and the stars fell from the sky, and the heavenly bodies was shaken and that his Angels gathered his elect.
These signs occurred on Pentecost. Peter explicitly said they occurred. Yet no fathers verified them (Acts 2)WJ:
Quote But history shows that the saints were never taken up but continued to die under persecution!
The gathering of the elect occurs through the preaching of the word.WJ:
Quote Jack, John lived well past 70ad, why was he left? He wrote the Gospel of John and the Epistles long after 70ad and makes no mention of Christ returning in the clouds!
You are referring to the futurist “rapture” doctrine which is not at all biblical. Paul said that those who were alive and remained would be caught up AFTER the Lord came and each man would be caught up WHEN HE DIES. John was caught up when he died.Jack
OMG! JackYou say he came in the clouds and now that does not mean that the saints i.e., “John did not meet him in the air”?
Then you say he gave the Thessalonians rest and yet Paul and Peter died a Martyrs death?
So God selected those who he would deliver at his coming?
How deep does this rabbit hole go?
I am not sure I want to spend much time on this because its way out there Jack!
Keith
Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 01 2009,05:09) Come on Keith! By historical record everyone means that an event is verifiable. How do you verify that Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God? You take the biblical record by faith.
LOL, then how do you verify “preterism” since you say you can prove it?If we cannot verify anything by what is written then why even bother with any of it?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2009,15:31) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 01 2009,05:09) WorshippingJesus said: Quote ack, notice the words “From now on you will see”. If that literally means “from then on” then it would mean that Jesus was already sitting at the right hand and Caiaphas was seeing his coming in the clouds right then. So this proves nothing for if it could mean 70ad, then it also could mean 2012. So what you are saying is ambiguous because nothing in the text tells us when the “from now on is”!
Keith,
Your rendering “from then on” works even better for me. It still means that Caiaphas would see both Christ's session at the right hand of God AND His coming.WJ:
Quote Yes, he will see him at the resurrection of the dead when he comes in the clouds with the Holy Angels.
There is no scripture which says this. The word “see” means the same thing in reference to both Christ's session and His coming. Caiaphas saw Christ's session through the signs of the apostles and he saw Christ's coming therough the sign in heaven whatever that was. The word “see” cannot have dual meaning.WJ:
Quote Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen Rev 1:7
Every eye saw Him but through a sign just as Jesus said (matt. 24:30). It is not possible for every eye in both hemispheres to see a body desecending from heaven unless all the TV networks are given advanced notice. The only way every eye could have seen His coming was by a sign.WJ:
Quote What do you mean there is no historical record of seeing Jesus at Gods right hand? Stephen saw him standing at his right hand, and the early church Fathers testify of Jesus being at the right hand of God because of the scriptures. But scriptures give us no time of his return, and there is no historical record of Jesus coming in the clouds!
Come on Keith! By historical record everyone means that an event is verifiable. How do you verify that Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God? You take the biblical record by faith.WJ:
Quote This should concern you Jack since Preterism didn’t appear until the 1500s!
Did you read the thread I started “Preterism in the first century” before you said this?WJ:
Quote Jesus is saying if anyone says he is here or there don't believe them because his return would be obvious and history would have spoke of it.
So by “history” you do mean the verification of an event which Stephens vision was not. If you read Jesus' statement without your futurist glasses you will notice that He was saying the opposite of what you are saying. He was saying that His coming was not to be viewed as “lo he is here” or lo he is there.” He was to come “as lightning shines from the east to the west.”His coming was indeed visible as the lightning from the east to the west. This supports preterism over futurism. For the only way His coming could be universally observed in both hemispheres would be by a “sign.” Or do you think that an angel will give the CEO'S of all the TV Networks advanced notice so they can televise the event for everyone to see?
WJ:
Quote The Fathers would have verified that the sun was darkened, and the moon did not give its light; and the stars fell from the sky, and the heavenly bodies was shaken and that his Angels gathered his elect.
These signs occurred on Pentecost. Peter explicitly said they occurred. Yet no fathers verified them (Acts 2)WJ:
Quote But history shows that the saints were never taken up but continued to die under persecution!
The gathering of the elect occurs through the preaching of the word.WJ:
Quote Jack, John lived well past 70ad, why was he left? He wrote the Gospel of John and the Epistles long after 70ad and makes no mention of Christ returning in the clouds!
You are referring to the futurist “rapture” doctrine which is not at all biblical. Paul said that those who were alive and remained would be caught up AFTER the Lord came and each man would be caught up WHEN HE DIES. John was caught up when he died.Jack
OMG! JackYou say he came in the clouds and now that does not mean that the saints i.e., “John did not meet him in the air”?
Then you say he gave the Thessalonians rest and yet Paul and Peter died a Martyrs death?
So God selected those who he would deliver at his coming?
How deep does this rabbit hole go?
I am not sure I want to spend much time on this because its way out there Jack!
Keith
Keith,
Actually it is futurist interpretation that is “way out there.” Please explain how every eye in both hemispheres can see Christ descending in the clouds? Jesus said that they would see “the SIGN of the Son of Man in heaven.” Are you going to comment about the “sign” Keith? Or will you continue to employ only select scriptures for your eschatology as the anti-trinitarians do for their Christology?I think I have shown how ridiculous the futurist method is. The futurists say that Christ will descend to the Mt. of Olives and that “every eye” in the eastern and western hemispheres will see it? This is total nonsense! Jesus said that we are not to believe anyone who says that He comes “here” or “there.” Christ said that His coming would be “as the lightning that shines from the east to the west.” Lightning is seen ACROSS the sky brother.
Please show just one new testament scripture which says that Jesus would come back to earth. You can't because
there aren't any.WJ:
Quote I am not sure I want to spend much time on this because its way out there Jack!
You spend time on a lot of the anti-trinitarian nonsense. I think you're just kopping out because you can't argue against a common sense approach. It's just common sense that all people in both hemispheres could not witness Christ's coming in the clouds. It would take a sign so everyone could see and that is exactly what Jesus said.Any interpretati0n that does not employ common sense is to be rejected at once. Futurism does not employ common sense. Ergo….
thinker
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote “John did not meet him in the air”? So John is not in heaven? John was caught up “in the spirit.” Paul said that after Christ returned those who are alive and remain would be caught up “in the air” (Greek, “breath). When John died he was caught up in the spirit to meet the Lord and he was given his eternal, immortal body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5).
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 02 2009,15:35) Jack Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 01 2009,05:09) Come on Keith! By historical record everyone means that an event is verifiable. How do you verify that Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God? You take the biblical record by faith.
LOL, then how do you verify “preterism” since you say you can prove it?If we cannot verify anything by what is written then why even bother with any of it?
WJ
Keith,
Did you read my post carefully? I said that we take it by faith. I take it by faith that the Lord returned in a “little while” just as promised.Hebrews 10:37:
“For in just a very little while,
He who is coming will come and will not delay.”thinker
Hi TT,
Nobody is given the new body till Jesus returns and John was buried in his old one to await the return of his master.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 06 2009,03:51) Hi TT,
Nobody is given the new body till Jesus returns and John was buried in his old one to await the return of his master.
Nick,
No! Jesus has returned. Now men receive their new bodies upon thier deaths. This is the being “caught up” that Paul taught. Before Christ returned they were not caught up at death. They went down to hades. Now that hades has been cast into the lake of fire believers are caught up when they die. They receive their new bodies from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5).thinker
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