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Hi TT,
When Jesus returns. and he has not done so yet, those in him will be raised into a new incorruptible body like his[1Cor15] The sons of the resurrection will be like to the angels and they will rule and reign with Jesus on the earth for 1000 years cleansing and restoring the creation of God.KRAFT- WOW! Jesus has not returned 6 or 8 times. WHen he was seen he did not ascend back to heaven each time. Zechariah 14:4 (NIV)
4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem
and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. Revelation 1:7 (NIV)
7 Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.
So shall it be! Amen.Have we seen him yet? No! Acts 1:11
11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.(that was his first coming)
Matthew 24:30
30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.(second coming)
Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ!Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2009,07:46) Hi TT,
When Jesus returns. and he has not done so yet, those in him will be raised into a new incorruptible body like his[1Cor15] The sons of the resurrection will be like to the angels and they will rule and reign with Jesus on the earth for 1000 years cleansing and restoring the creation of God.
Nick,
Jesus returned in ad70 and the dead were raised incorruptible. The thousands of years was the old testament period. There is no future millenium taught anywhere in scripture.Neither is there a scripture which says that He would return to earth. It says that He would descend from heaven and meet His people “in the air.” It says “in the air” Nick.
thinker
Hi TT,
Really,
And you were the only one that noticed?
He will come back as he left and all eyes will see it.Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 28 2009,08:49) Constitutionalist said: Quote And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death [thanatos], neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Revelation 21:4 Thanatos {Greek}: Death {English}: The death of the body. The power of death. From Thnēskō {Greek}: To die, to be dead, die, be dead, dead man, dead, ceasing to function and turning to dust, “death” is the opposite of life.
Con,
The word “thanatos” is frequently used by Jesus and by Paul to refer to “condemnation.”Jesus: “24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed out of death death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live” (John 5:24-25).
Note that in verse 24 Jesus equated death with condemnation. This is solified in verse 25 when He said that the time NOW IS for the “dead” to hear His voice and live. The “dead” here are the condemned. If He was speaking about a bodily resurrection then it was happening THEN for He said it “now is.”
Paul: 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life” (Romans 5:17-18).Death in Revelation 21 is “condemnation.” According to Isaiah's prophecy of the new earth physical death still happens (65:20).
thinker
Quote The word “thanatos” is frequently used by Jesus and by Paul to refer to “condemnation.” That is because the condemnation is death, the wicked at his return receive death.
For if by one man's offence death [thanatos] reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation [katakrima]; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5:17-18
Thanatos {Greek}: Death {English}: The death of the body. The power of death. From Thnēskō {Greek}: To die, to be dead, die, be dead, dead man, dead, ceasing to function and turning to dust, “death” is the opposite of life.
Katakrima: Condemnation: From katakrinō: Damnatory sentence, to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment.
The condemnation above is death.
Quote Jesus: “24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed out of death death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live” (John 5:24-25). Here again what is Jesus saying? Condemnation is death.
Condemnation = Sentence (The sentance is death).
Condemnation = Judgment (The Judgment is death).
Condemnation = Punishment (The Punishment is death).
Condemnation and death are not the same thing. One is the result of the other.
Quote Note that in verse 24 Jesus equated death with condemnation. This is solified in verse 25 when He said that the time NOW IS for the “dead” to hear His voice and live. The “dead” here are the condemned. If He was speaking about a bodily resurrection then it was happening THEN for He said it “now is.” Verse 25 is the prelude to verse 28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation [krisis] John 5:28-29
Krisis: A separating, sundering, separation, judgment, sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment, justice.
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,02:53) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 28 2009,10:34) Wow! I don't know alot about all the religious stuff I see but I do know that Jesus returned to the earth and is here now. If you don't believe Jesus is here, now, then he couldn't be with God in your heart. He said he would come and he and the father would make their abode in us that where they are we are with them. If you believe that God is off somewhere else then you are in sin. If you believe we are all one together, then the truth has taken away your sin. If one is looking off to somewhere for Jesus to come from then you are separated from him now (in you mind).
He is here, now, cleansing and washing pure and clean his brothers and sisters that believe to recieve. The word of God, Jesus is here now. God Bless, TK
TK,
Jesus is not here. He descended from heaven to the “air” whatever that sphere might be. There is no statement in scripture which says that Jesus would return to earth. It says that He would descend from heaven and catch up His people in “the air.”Matthew's account says that they would see the sign of the Son of man “in heaven” (24:30). It is obvious that “the air” and “heaven” must be the same sphere. It is not the heaven from which He descended.
Anyway, there is not one statement in scripture which says that He was to come back to earth. What good would it have done for Him come to earth seeing He has His spiritual body now which we cannot see?
thinker
thinker: Returning in “air” is spirit, air, pneuma. He said I will come(manifest) in a new form(spirit) that where I am, there you will be also. Is Jesus the Christ not within you? Did you accept Jesus as lord? Are you his temple? Are you his body?
Is he your light. Is the word/Jesus at work in the world separating the sheep and the goats? Can you talk to Jesus/God? If you can then they are here, now. How can you say you are One with God/Jesus and then say they are off somewhere in Heaven. Jesus returns to each individual every time they hear the word of Truth and accept. Then is the spirit made flesh. Being born of Spirit is an ongoing lesson. TKConstitutionalist said:
Quote The condemnation above is death.
Exactly!Con:
Quote Here again what is Jesus saying? Condemnation is death.
Absolutely correct!
thinker
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 29 2009,22:37) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,02:53) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 28 2009,10:34) Wow! I don't know alot about all the religious stuff I see but I do know that Jesus returned to the earth and is here now. If you don't believe Jesus is here, now, then he couldn't be with God in your heart. He said he would come and he and the father would make their abode in us that where they are we are with them. If you believe that God is off somewhere else then you are in sin. If you believe we are all one together, then the truth has taken away your sin. If one is looking off to somewhere for Jesus to come from then you are separated from him now (in you mind).
He is here, now, cleansing and washing pure and clean his brothers and sisters that believe to recieve. The word of God, Jesus is here now. God Bless, TK
TK,
Jesus is not here. He descended from heaven to the “air” whatever that sphere might be. There is no statement in scripture which says that Jesus would return to earth. It says that He would descend from heaven and catch up His people in “the air.”Matthew's account says that they would see the sign of the Son of man “in heaven” (24:30). It is obvious that “the air” and “heaven” must be the same sphere. It is not the heaven from which He descended.
Anyway, there is not one statement in scripture which says that He was to come back to earth. What good would it have done for Him come to earth seeing He has His spiritual body now which we cannot see?
thinker
thinker: Returning in “air” is spirit, air, pneuma. He said I will come(manifest) in a new form(spirit) that where I am, there you will be also. Is Jesus the Christ not within you? Did you accept Jesus as lord? Are you his temple? Are you his body?
Is he your light. Is the word/Jesus at work in the world separating the sheep and the goats? Can you talk to Jesus/God? If you can then they are here, now. How can you say you are One with God/Jesus and then say they are off somewhere in Heaven. Jesus returns to each individual every time they hear the word of Truth and accept. Then is the spirit made flesh. Being born of Spirit is an ongoing lesson. TK
TK,
I checked and the word “air” is “breath.” It could be saying that Christ would catch up His people and that they would meet Him in the spirit. I am not saying for sure at this time.However, it says that the Lord would descend from heaven and that the living would be “CAUGHT UP“ to meet Him “IN THE CLOUDS”. So there is no full descent to the earth to be inferred at all. Jesus said that they would see the sign of the Son of man “in heaven.” So there is no descent to the earth taught.
There is not so much as one statement in all of scripture which says that the Lord was to come back to the earth.
I strongly disagree with you that this has reference to being born of the Spirit. And Spirit birth is NOT “ongoing” as you say.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2009,18:36) Hi TT,
Really,
And you were the only one that noticed?
He will come back as he left and all eyes will see it.
Nick,
I have asserted numerous times that every eye would see Christ's coming. But this does not imply He would come back to earth. Jesus said that they would see te sign of the Son of Man IN HEAVEN (Matt. 24:30).And THAT GENERATION did see His coming just as He said.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,11:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2009,18:36) Hi TT,
Really,
And you were the only one that noticed?
He will come back as he left and all eyes will see it.
Nick,
I have asserted numerous times that every eye would see Christ's coming. But this does not imply He would come back to earth. Jesus said that they would see te sign of the Son of Man IN HEAVEN (Matt. 24:30).And THAT GENERATION did see His coming just as He said.
thinker
JackNo every eye didn't see him! Where are there any writings that say Jesus has returned in the clouds?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 29 2009,11:44) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,11:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2009,18:36) Hi TT,
Really,
And you were the only one that noticed?
He will come back as he left and all eyes will see it.
Nick,
I have asserted numerous times that every eye would see Christ's coming. But this does not imply He would come back to earth. Jesus said that they would see te sign of the Son of Man IN HEAVEN (Matt. 24:30).And THAT GENERATION did see His coming just as He said.
thinker
JackNo every eye didn't see him! Where are there any writings that say Jesus has returned in the clouds?
WJ
JackAlso, the context of the sripture you quote says…
“FOR AS LIGHTNING that comes from the east is visible even in the west, SO WILL BE THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN“. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. “Immediately after the distress of those days ” '”THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT; THE STARS WILL FALL FROM THE SKY, AND THE HEAVENLY BODIES WILL BE SHAKEN.“' “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. “THEY WILL SEE the Son of Man COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY, WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY“. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matt 24:27-31
This has not been fulfilled yet! There are no historical records or writings anywhere that says the highlighted parts in the above has come to pass!
When did this happen Jack?
Question, if this happened didn’t the Lord take his saints to meet him in the air?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 30 2009,03:44) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,11:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2009,18:36) Hi TT,
Really,
And you were the only one that noticed?
He will come back as he left and all eyes will see it.
Nick,
I have asserted numerous times that every eye would see Christ's coming. But this does not imply He would come back to earth. Jesus said that they would see te sign of the Son of Man IN HEAVEN (Matt. 24:30).And THAT GENERATION did see His coming just as He said.
thinker
JackNo every eye didn't see him! Where are there any writings that say Jesus has returned in the clouds?
WJ
Keith,
Jesus was not a false prophet. He told Caiaphas the high priest that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds,Matthew 26:64 (Today's New International Version)
Quote 64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” I chose the TNIV because it is closest to the original meaning. Jesus told Caiaphas, “from THIS TIME FORWARD you will see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of God and coming in the clouds of heaven.”
As to your question about no historical record please note that Jesus said that Caiaphas would see Christ sitting on the right hand of God. There is no historical record of Christ's session at God's right hand. Yet Jesus told Caiaphas that he would “see” Him sitting at the right hand of God. Likewise he would “see” Jesus coming by a sign in heaven. “Then they shall see the SIGN of the Son of Man in heaven” (Matt. 24:30).
Just as Christ's session at God's right hand was seen by a “sign” so there was a “sign” in heaven that announced His return. Neither the session at God's right hand nor the coming was subject to historical verification.
Jack
Hi TT,
So you think Jesus was speaking of Caiaphas himself rather than men in general?
I can see how that would confuse you.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 30 2009,04:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 29 2009,11:44) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 29 2009,11:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 29 2009,18:36) Hi TT,
Really,
And you were the only one that noticed?
He will come back as he left and all eyes will see it.
Nick,
I have asserted numerous times that every eye would see Christ's coming. But this does not imply He would come back to earth. Jesus said that they would see te sign of the Son of Man IN HEAVEN (Matt. 24:30).And THAT GENERATION did see His coming just as He said.
thinker
JackNo every eye didn't see him! Where are there any writings that say Jesus has returned in the clouds?
WJ
JackAlso, the context of the sripture you quote says…
“FOR AS LIGHTNING that comes from the east is visible even in the west, SO WILL BE THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN“. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. “Immediately after the distress of those days ” '”THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT; THE STARS WILL FALL FROM THE SKY, AND THE HEAVENLY BODIES WILL BE SHAKEN.“' “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. “THEY WILL SEE the Son of Man COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY, WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY“. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matt 24:27-31
This has not been fulfilled yet! There are no historical records or writings anywhere that says the highlighted parts in the above has come to pass!
When did this happen Jack?
Question, if this happened didn’t the Lord take his saints to meet him in the air?
WJ
Keith,
Please see my post immediately above. Jesus told Caiaphas that he would “see” both Christ's session at God's right hand and His coming in the clouds. History cannot verify that Jesus was seated at God's right hand. Yet Jesus told Caiaphas that he would “see” both the session and the coming. He said that they would see the “SIGN” of the Son of Man “IN HEAVEN.”Neither the session or the coming could be verified by history.
His coming being visible “as lightning” from the east to the west is a verse that I employ to show that it was not a physical coming. If His coming was to be visible by both the east and west at the same time then it would require a sign. The only way His coming could be observed by both the east and the west would be by a universal sign. Jesus said, “Then they shall see the SIGN of the Son of Man in heaven.”
Maybe it could be visible without a sign if all the TV Networks were given advanced notice.
thinker
Hi TT,
You have small expectations for the second coming of Jesus Christ and these preterist ideas are very thin on hard evidence are they not?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 30 2009,06:22) Hi TT,
You have small expectations for the second coming of Jesus Christ and these preterist ideas are very thin on hard evidence are they not?
Nick,
You have false expectations. If Christ did not come back to His own generation as He promised, then what makes you believe that He will keep His promises to you?
Hebrews 10:37:“For, “In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.”
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 30 2009,07:33) Hi TT,
So you know what a little while means?
One day is as 1000 years?
To the Lord but not to us. Was Jesus raised up in three days or three in thousand years?Jesus told His disciples that some of them would not die until they saw Him coming with power. Does your one day = 1,000 years principle apply here?
thinker
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