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Hi TK,
Do you think because Jesus lives here in his body now he will not return as head of the Church to rule?Will the church be headless forever?
HMMM
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 28 2009,10:34) Wow! I don't know alot about all the religious stuff I see but I do know that Jesus returned to the earth and is here now. If you don't believe Jesus is here, now, then he couldn't be with God in your heart. He said he would come and he and the father would make their abode in us that where they are we are with them. If you believe that God is off somewhere else then you are in sin. If you believe we are all one together, then the truth has taken away your sin. If one is looking off to somewhere for Jesus to come from then you are separated from him now (in you mind).
He is here, now, cleansing and washing pure and clean his brothers and sisters that believe to recieve. The word of God, Jesus is here now. God Bless, TK
Hi TK:Jesus is here in the following sense:
Quote Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Quote Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing But he is the head of the body, and he literally dwells at the right hand of the Father in heaven, and will come for the church in the timing of the Father, and all of the body of Christ will meet him in the air, and be with him forever.
Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Quote Psa 110:1 ¶ [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Quote Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.Love in Christ,
MartyJESUS HAS NOT RETURNED!When He ascended back to heaven He said He would send a helper. Which is the Holy Spirit. that lives in us and guides us. BUT at his second coming we will see HIm in the flesh! Being caught up with Him in the clouds is for christians during the rapture when Gods wrath is poured out. All christians are waiting on His return. Than the new heaven and earth will ascend down, earth will be like paradise again!
Zechariah 14:4 (NIV)
4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem
and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. Revelation 1:7 (NIV)
7 Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.
So shall it be! Amen.Acts 1:11
11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.
Matthew 24:30
30 “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ!I was looking for scripture but cant find right now that warns about false prophets saying Jesus has returned, Do not believe them. But you can tell by the scripts I quotted he has not returned.
Matt 24:23-26 Jesus says “Then if anyone tells you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah,’ or ‘There he is,’ don’t believe it. For FALSE MESSIAHS and FALSE PROPHETS will rise up and perform GREAT SIGNS AND WONDERS SO AS TO DECEIVE, IF POSSIBLE EVEN GOD'S CHOSEN ONES. See, I have warned you about this ahead of time. “So if someone tells you, ‘Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,’ don’t bother to go and look. Or, ‘Look, he is hiding here,’ don’t believe it!”
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 25 2009,16:28) bodhitharta said: Quote You already believe that Jesus has retuned in 70 AD correct? This is the new earth to you correct?
bd,
Yes Jesus returned in ad70. He said that His generation would not pass away until they saw Him return. And yes we are in the new earth. Tradition has erroneously taught that sin and death will be eradicated in the new earth and so the new earth must be in our future. But the prophecies of Isaiah and John speak quite differently. According to Isaiah there is still aging and dying in the new earth. People still procreate and have children. Sinners live in the new earth too.Isaiah 65:17-23:
Quote 17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.Please note that it speaks about old men, dying, sinners and bringing forth children.
Tradition has taught us that physical death is eradicated in the new earth because Revelation 21:4 says that there will be “no more death.” But the word “death” here refers to “condemnation.” It is not speaking about the eradication of physical death at all. The gospel of John and the writings of Paul frequently define death as “condemnation.”
Furthermore, John's vision also shows that sinners are present in the new earth. They are not in the lake of fire. Sinners are right outsdide the gates of the city and are not permitted to enter into the city (22:14-15). John's vision also says that the gospel is still being offered. It says that the Spirit and the Bride invite men to come and partake of the water of life freely (22:17). The water of life flows from the throne of God in the new Jerusalem.
In other words, the new earth is simply apocalyptic for the covenentally renewed order, that is, the new covenant age.
The only place where sin and death are totally absent is in heaven where God dwells.
thinker
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death [thanatos], neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Revelation 21:4Thanatos {Greek}: Death {English}: The death of the body. The power of death. From Thnēskō {Greek}: To die, to be dead, die, be dead, dead man, dead, ceasing to function and turning to dust, “death” is the opposite of life.
Quote (katjo @ Oct. 28 2009,11:49) JESUS HAS NOT RETURNED!When He ascended back to heaven He said He would send a helper. Which is the Holy Spirit. that lives in us and guides us. BUT at his second coming we will see HIm in the flesh! Being caught up with Him in the clouds is for christians during the rapture when Gods wrath is poured out. All christians are waiting on His return. Than the new heaven and earth will ascend down, earth will be like paradise again!
Katjo; After the cross Jesus returned to the earth realm at least 6 or 8 times. Some in different forms of body but at least 2 times fully physical.
So, you must be looking for the 8th or 9th comming of Christ!Also I am sad for you that since Jesus is not here now for you. Do you suppose he lied to us when he said he would come with the father and make their abode (home) in us!
I guess you don't consider yourself the Temple or the body of Christ. How could anyone be the body of Christ is Christ hasn't returned. For the sake of a man made rapture doctrine some people will throw Jesus under the bus so to speak.
I guess its not Christ in you, the hope of glory!
His disciples came to him and said, …how is it that the world won't see you but we will see you….There are to many scriptures to use here now. God Bless you, TKQuote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 28 2009,03:23) Quote (katjo @ Oct. 28 2009,11:49) JESUS HAS NOT RETURNED!When He ascended back to heaven He said He would send a helper. Which is the Holy Spirit. that lives in us and guides us. BUT at his second coming we will see HIm in the flesh! Being caught up with Him in the clouds is for christians during the rapture when Gods wrath is poured out. All christians are waiting on His return. Than the new heaven and earth will ascend down, earth will be like paradise again!
Katjo; After the cross Jesus returned to the earth realm at least 6 or 8 times. Some in different forms of body but at least 2 times fully physical.
So, you must be looking for the 8th or 9th comming of Christ!Also I am sad for you that since Jesus is not here now for you. Do you suppose he lied to us when he said he would come with the father and make their abode (home) in us!
I guess you don't consider yourself the Temple or the body of Christ. How could anyone be the body of Christ is Christ hasn't returned. For the sake of a man made rapture doctrine some people will throw Jesus under the bus so to speak.
I guess its not Christ in you, the hope of glory!
His disciples came to him and said, …how is it that the world won't see you but we will see you….There are to many scriptures to use here now. God Bless you, TK
Thats whacked!Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Act 1:11
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Matthew 25:31
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Mark 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Luke 21:27
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. John 14:3
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Thesselonians 4:16
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2Thessalonians 1:7-10
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7
Quote Katjo; After the cross Jesus returned to the earth realm at least 6 or 8 times. Some in different forms of body but at least 2 times fully physical.
So, you must be looking for the 8th or 9th comming of Christ!Yup Whacked!
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mathew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect. Mark 13:22
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many. Mark 13:6
Whacked? Who lied, you or I? Is Jesus the Christ here now? Or, do we have to wait for him to return?
Anyone who says that Jesus is not here, dwelling in them, has no part with him!!
A prophet speaks the truth of God, a false prophet speaks doctrine of men! TK
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 28 2009,06:18) Whacked? Who lied, you or I? Is Jesus the Christ here now? Or, do we have to wait for him to return? Anyone who says that Jesus is not here, dwelling in them, has no part with him!!
A prophet speaks the truth of God, a false prophet speaks doctrine of men! TK
We are filled with the Holy Spirit, Jesus promised his return at the end of the age, where all get rewarded.Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 28 2009,08:29) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 28 2009,01:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,19:46) Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Now you can see that I have shown you through the scriptures that what you have been thinking is not correct(according to the scriptures)
BTW, there are no less than 70 “seas” so they would not exist if you were correct but climate change may fix that soon enough but for right now the seas still remain
bd,
In the Revelation the “sea” is sometimes used interchangeably with the “abyss” where the serpent was bound. It has reference also to hades which is the place of the dead. According to Isaiah's prophecy the new earth has coastlands (66:19). This necessarily infers that there is a literal sea in the new earth.I have answered your post about the abolition of crying in an earlier post. The Jews were required to mourn when they worshiped God. But we worship Him with rejoicing in the new coveant age, that is, in the “new heaven and earth.”
thinker
Okay then according to your theory Jesus has succeeded and has turned the Kingdom over to The Father i.e. Islam.
You were easy to disprove. Are you the best apologist Islam has?
thinker
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 28 2009,10:34) Wow! I don't know alot about all the religious stuff I see but I do know that Jesus returned to the earth and is here now. If you don't believe Jesus is here, now, then he couldn't be with God in your heart. He said he would come and he and the father would make their abode in us that where they are we are with them. If you believe that God is off somewhere else then you are in sin. If you believe we are all one together, then the truth has taken away your sin. If one is looking off to somewhere for Jesus to come from then you are separated from him now (in you mind).
He is here, now, cleansing and washing pure and clean his brothers and sisters that believe to recieve. The word of God, Jesus is here now. God Bless, TK
TK,
Jesus is not here. He descended from heaven to the “air” whatever that sphere might be. There is no statement in scripture which says that Jesus would return to earth. It says that He would descend from heaven and catch up His people in “the air.”Matthew's account says that they would see the sign of the Son of man “in heaven” (24:30). It is obvious that “the air” and “heaven” must be the same sphere. It is not the heaven from which He descended.
Anyway, there is not one statement in scripture which says that He was to come back to earth. What good would it have done for Him come to earth seeing He has His spiritual body now which we cannot see?
thinker
Constitutionalist said:
Quote And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death [thanatos], neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Revelation 21:4 Thanatos {Greek}: Death {English}: The death of the body. The power of death. From Thnēskō {Greek}: To die, to be dead, die, be dead, dead man, dead, ceasing to function and turning to dust, “death” is the opposite of life.
Con,
The word “thanatos” is frequently used by Jesus and by Paul to refer to “condemnation.”Jesus: “24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed out of death death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live” (John 5:24-25).
Note that in verse 24 Jesus equated death with condemnation. This is solified in verse 25 when He said that the time NOW IS for the “dead” to hear His voice and live. The “dead” here are the condemned. If He was speaking about a bodily resurrection then it was happening THEN for He said it “now is.”
Paul: 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life” (Romans 5:17-18).Death in Revelation 21 is “condemnation.” According to Isaiah's prophecy of the new earth physical death still happens (65:20).
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 28 2009,01:14) Georg said: Quote thinker Have you ever considered to become a science fiction writer?
Georg
Georg,
I noticed that you did not comment on Isaiah's statement that physical death and sin continues in the new earth. It says also that sinners are there (65:20). Neither did you comment on John's vision which says that the Spirit and the Bride invite people to drink of the waters of salvation (22:17).Because of the books on prophecy you read you have a false expectation as the Jews did in Jesus' day. How about a real reply?
There will NEVER be an earth where there is no sin and death. This was promised us only in heaven. It is the contemporary books on prophecy that contain all the “fiction.”
thinker
thinker the reason why my Husband has not responded to Isaiah is because He does not come on here like you guys do.
But what He does do is study the Bible for 4 hours in a row.
Before He does, He always ask God for wisdom. He does not make a common in a wink. He takes Himself time.
IreneQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 28 2009,08:39) Hi TT,
You really have no idea but teach confidently nonetheless?
I guess once you have accepted the gross folly of trinity anything goes?
Nick,
For your information I once posted on a Preterist board where anti-trinitarians were also Preterists. So much for your claim that preterism is trinitarian. Why don't you answer some of my points? Why do you dismiss without investigation?Bodhitharta said that the new earth will not have a sea. But the word “sea” in Hebrew thought was not always about a body of salt water. The word “sea” was used also for the “abyss” where the devil was bound.
In Romans 10:7 Paul cited Deuteronomy 30:13 which in the Hebrew scripture says this,
Quote ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Paul's version of Deuteronomy 30:13:
Quote 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
There it is! Conclusive evidence that the word “sea” did not always refer to a mass of water as opposed to dry land. Paul cited Deuteronomy 30:13 which in the Hebrew scripture says “sea.” Paul knew that it was not about a body of salt water. It was about Christ being raised up from the abyss (or hades).According to Isaiah's account of the new earth people will come to [the new] Jerusalem from various coastlands to learn about the Lord. They will bring their gifts (66:19-20). This is what is said in Revelation 21:24. They come from various “coastlands” with their gifts. Many translations say “islands.” This means that the sea still exists. Therefore, the “sea” that is abolished in the new earth is the “abyss” where the devil was bound. This is in accord with John's visions in the book.
But you will just dismiss it Nick. In doing so you show others that you are not teachable. In fact, all of us here have conceded something at one time or another. But I have yet to see you concede something.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 28 2009,11:49) Constitutionalist said: Quote And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death [thanatos], neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Revelation 21:4 Thanatos {Greek}: Death {English}: The death of the body. The power of death. From Thnēskō {Greek}: To die, to be dead, die, be dead, dead man, dead, ceasing to function and turning to dust, “death” is the opposite of life.
Con,
The word “thanatos” is frequently used by Jesus and by Paul to refer to “condemnation.”Jesus: “24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed out of death death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live” (John 5:24-25).
Note that in verse 24 Jesus equated death with condemnation. This is solified in verse 25 when He said that the time NOW IS for the “dead” to hear His voice and live. The “dead” here are the condemned. If He was speaking about a bodily resurrection then it was happening THEN for He said it “now is.”
Paul: 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life” (Romans 5:17-18).Death in Revelation 21 is “condemnation.” According to Isaiah's prophecy of the new earth physical death still happens (65:20).
thinker
JackSeriously, that is not like you to give poor commentary as you just did.
The Greek word “thanatos” In Revelation 21:4 for death is found in the AV translated as…
AV — death 117 times , and deadly 2 times
Not ONCE did the translators translate the word as “condemnation”. Every case in the NT the word is used is refering to Physical or Spiritual “Death”.
Strongs definition for Strong's G2288 – thanatos is;
1) the death of the body
a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell
1) the power of death
c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin
2) metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,
a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell
3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell
4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell Source
The word condemnation is not found in the definition.
To make the case that death is the same as condemnation is weak and is not what Revelation 21:4 is referring to!
Blessings Keith
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote Jack Seriously, that is not like you to give poor commentary as you just did.
The Greek word “thanatos” In Revelation 21:4 for death is found in the AV translated as…
AV — death 117 times , and deadly 2 times
Not ONCE did the translators translate the word as “condemnation”. Every case in the NT the word is used is refering to Physical or Spiritual “Death”.
Strongs definition for Strong's G2288 – thanatos is;
1) the death of the body
a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell
1) the power of death
c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin
2) metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,
a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell
3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell
4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell Source
The word condemnation is not found in the definition.
To make the case that death is the same as condemnation is weak and is not what Revelation 21:4 is referring to!
Blessings Keith
Keith,
I did not mean to say that death translates as “condemnation.” I am saying that Jesus and Paul sometimes used the word “thanatos” to refer to condemnation. Death by implication sometimes means condemnation. Paul's argument in Romans 5 is clear. He said that sin resulted in death, i.e., condemnation (vss. 12 & 16).Anyway, there is physical death in the new earth (Is. 65:20). Physical death is mentioned also in 66:22-24:
Quote 22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD. 24 “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
Note also that 65:23 says that God's people shall “bring forth children” and have “descendants” in the new earth. The new earth refers to THIS earth as it was covenantally renewed in Christ.The only place where there is no physical death is in heaven. It is only when we get to heaven that we will see incorruptibility.
Quote 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance INCORRUPTIBLE AND UNDEFILED and that does not fade away, RESERVED IN HEAVEN for you (1 Peter 1:3-4)
God never promised an “earth” where there will be incorruptibility.Jack
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