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WorshippingJesus said:
Quote Everyone take note, Jack has failed to address my following points… 1. If Jacks interpretation is right and the saints remained here on earth then Jack is telling us that they are caught up to be with (syn) them in the clouds when they die!
2. Is Jesus still in the clouds, are those that slept still in the clouds? Jack says this passage (1 Thess 4:16, 17) applies to everyone after he came including you and I!
TO ALL:I have indeed answered Keith already on another thread about the “in the clouds” thing. Maybe he does not remember or maybe he did not see that post. I said that “in the clouds” means through the clouds. Jesus catches up His people “through the clouds.” I have never said that Jesus came down and resided in the clouds. In fact, I explicitly said that I saw no reason for them to hang around down here.
Again, every day Christians are caught up through the clouds when they put off their earthly bodies. The clouds are not their destination but they pass through the clouds to get to their destination.
WJ:
Quote 3. What Jack is proposing is that when Christ died the souls of the saints remained in Hades until Christ came in 70AD! (Therefore making his death void and ineffective to save those in hades until 70AD!) My reply to this is two-fold:
1. It is Paul who said that they “slept” and not me.
2. They would have to continue to sleep in hades until Christ completed the two parts of His work of atonement. According to the Mosaic code the atonement was not complete until the two parts had been accomplished:
Part 1: The animal had to be sacrificed.
Part 2: The priest had to take a basin of blood to the altar and sprinkle it on the altar.
After Jesus completed part one by His sacrificial death He had to enter the heavenly sanctuary and sprinkle His blood on the altar. This was part two. The work of atonement was not finished until part two was completed. So the saints could not come up from hades into the presence of God until ALL had been accomplished.
This is what Christ's intercession as High Priest was about. It was about the sprinkling of his blood on the heavenly altar. This was not literal of course. He did not take a literal basin with His blood and sprinkle it. But He did the equivalent that was needed in the heavenly sanctuary and fulfilled the whole law of Moses. Hebrews says that He entered the heavenly sanctuary “not without blood.”
The destruction of the temple was the sign God gave to that generation that Christ has completed part two of the work of atonement:
Quote Hebrews 9:7-10 (New King James Version)
7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.Through the death of the animal the high priest was permitted ot enter the “first part” of the tabernacle. Through Jesus' death He was permitted ot enter the “first part” of the heavenly tabernacle. The high priest then entered the “second part” of the tabernacle “not without blood” and he sprinkled the blood on the altar. So Jesus entered into the “second part” of the heavenly and did the equivalent of sprinkling His blood.
After the high priest finished his work in the second part of the tabernacle he came out to the people and announced that God had accepted the atonement. After Christ had finished the equivalent of that in the second part He came out to announce to the people that His atoning work had been accepted. The sign was the destruction of the temple.
It clearly says that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the sanctuary was still standing. So as long as the temple in Jerusalem was still standing the way to God was not yet made manifest. When Christ came back in ad70 and the temple was destroyed the people of God knew that they then had full access to God. This was the sign that God gave them.
Until both parts of the atoning work were finished God's people had to remain in hades because the way to God was “not yet made manifest.” It was not until then that Christ could resurrect them from hades into the presence of God.
Many futurists deny the necessity of the two part atonement. They claim that the people of God had full access to God when the veil of the temple was rent. This is not in accord with the Mosaic law. Under Moses the renting of the veil gave ONLY the priest access into the Holiest of All. So the renting of the veil when Christ died gave access ONLY to Him. It was when He completed part two that the people of God gained full access.
Futurists also say that Christ's statement “it is finished” proves that there was no more to be done. But Jesus meant that it was finished in reference to Himself having access. He still had to gain access for His people through His intercessory work in the heavenly sanctuary. This was completed in ad70 with the destruction of the temple being the sign to them that it was completed.
It was not until then that He started calling up His people from hades.
Btw, there are many questions of mine which Keith has not answered. There is not enough time to cover everything. I started too many threads as it is.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 22 2009,08:27) Ok Jack I am listening! You have the floor!
Why don't you go ahead and answer the other questions?
WJ
Keith,Be thinking about Revelation 20:14 which says that death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. According to the futurists nothing in Revelation 20 has happened yet. It is all still future. This means that hades still exists and God's people to this very day must go down there to sleep until the resurrection.
You can't have it both ways brother. And if Christ's death was all sufficient as you say then there would have been no need for Him to make the heavenly intercession and there would have been no need for hades to be destroyed.
About the order of the resurrection: Be thinking about Paul's statement in Philippians where he said that he labored that he might attain to the resurrection of the dead. Literally it reads “from among [the company] of the dead.” Paul labored not to be a part of a general resurrection. He wanted a place of priority, that is, he wanted to be in one of the first groups that were raised. Even many futurists believe that Paul was laboring for a place of honor in the resurrection by being among the first to rise.
In 1 Corinthians 15:20 it says that Christ was a firstfruit “from among the dead.” This clearly means He left their company. So Paul wanted to be with the first to leave the company of the dead. This in turn implies that there was an order to the resurrection. We know that there are at least two groups in Revelation 20.
Paul said “each man in his own group.” I give the commentary of two men, the first a preterist and the second a futurist.
Preterist Milton S. Terry:“What especially demands our attention here is the doctrine of successive resurrections, of which the resurrection of Christ himself, a fact already past when the apostle wrote, is the first in rank and order, and the firstfruits and pledge of the rest. All the dead shall be raised, according to Paul, but they will come forth by successive companies….” (Biblical Hermeneutics, Academic Books, p. 463)
Futurist charles Hodge: “In his own order” The word τάγμα is properly a concrete term, meaning a band as of soldiers. If this be insisted upon here, then the apostle Paul considers the hosts of those that rise as divided into different cohorts or companies; first Christ, then His people, then the rest of mankind”( 1 & 2 Corinthians, Banner of Truth, p. 326)
Please note that both commentators correctly say that “tagma” means a “company.” But futurist Charles Hodge engages in eisegesis of the text. It is so obvious. Hodge says that the order is Christ, His people, then the rest of mankind. PAUL SAID NO SUCH THING! Paul was not talking about the rest of mankind. He clearly said, “Christ a firstfruit, then they that are Christ's in His coming.”
Millton S. Terry has it right. Paul was speaking about the resurrection of Christ's people in groups. This does serious damage to your chronology and your treatment of “hama” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Even George Eldon Ladd a futurist said that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 spoke of a resurrection by groups [at least two].
Ladd and preterists agree that Paul labored to attain a priority resurrection. He wanted to be in the first groups to be raised. How long would it take to raise up all the groups of saints? Days, months, years? And where would the first groups “hang out” until all remaining groups were raised so all could be caught up together with the living? Would they hang out in their spiritual bodies which according to Paul are invisible to us (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5)? Will there be invisible saints hanging around here for days, months or years waiting until everyone may be caught up together?
It seems that you won't allow for Robertson to be fallible. Well, my faith stands in the power of God and not in the wisdom of men. The word “hama” must be understood as indicating close association. Paul said that those who are living and remaining (continuous action) would afterwards be caught up to join them. So they would not be caught up together and there would be no resurrected saints hanging around down here in their invisible bodies.
I will not be able to do much here for about a week. I know I owe you replies on other threads but I started too many of them and I can't keep up. I will eventuall get to them.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 22 2009,08:27) Ok Jack I am listening! You have the floor!
Why don't you go ahead and answer the other questions?
WJ
You may start by explaining why there is procreation in the new earth and the presence of sinners and death (Is. 65).Jack
hi tk
because there will be children ,so they have to learn and accept Christ, just look what it said in revelation 20 ,21 abode all the nations upon the earth ,at the final jugementthinker
Isaiah 65, starting in verse 17, is describing the millennium, it is the beginning of creating a new earth, meaning, a new way of life, God's way.
During this period, 1000 years, not only will the dead be resurrected, but new children will be born. Both groups, the new and the old, will learn God's way with no interference from Satan, or any one else.
The new born, for the time being, will have an easier time to except the teaching of Christ because, they have no memory of having done any evil; while those being resurrected will have to except the new teaching of Christ, and, at the same time unlearn all the false doctrines they used to believe in. Plus, they will have to deal with whatever evil they may have done in this life.
The time given for all is about 100 years, whether you are resurrected as a child, or as an old man.
If, after the 100 years, you show no progress, you will die.
Age in the millennium is of no importance, you may have been 100 old when you died the first time, if, after another 100 you should die again, you are considered being just a child.
There is a scripture that is very much misunderstood, Rev. 20:5, “the rest of the dead did not live again until the 1000 years were finished”. Why?
Did not Paul tell the Colossians they were once dead in their sins, 2:13?
As long as there is a possibility for you to sin, you are considered dead.
Why will Satan be loosed after the 1000 years are up? to give all mankind, especially those who never felt the deceiving powers of Satan, a final test. The bible tells us, there will be millions who follow Satan into death. Satan will be the last enemy to be destroyed, after that, no more death.
Now Christ job will be completed, he will turn the kingdom over to the Father, and God will dwell with men for all eternity.Georg
Georg said:
Quote Isaiah 65, starting in verse 17, is describing the millennium,
Isaiah 65 beginning with verse 17 is describing the new earth17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.Georg:
Quote The time given for all is about 100 years, whether you are resurrected as a child, or as an old man.
People will be resurrected old men? The resurrection body is mortal?Thanks for helping me out here Georg.
thinker
hi all,
you know God said “my words do not come back to me onless the are fullfilled”there is at the least one thing God has not recieved from man,is One righteous child.terraricca
And never will, as long as Satan rules this world.
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Georg
Quote (banana @ Dec. 03 2009,22:22) terraricca And never will, as long as Satan rules this world.
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Georg
So Christ and satan simultaneously rule the world eh? Satan is in the lake of fire my friend.thinker
Hi TT,
Really?
I think you are getting ahead of yourself as he still buffets the brothers.
Jesus is not ruling as King yet except in the hearts of his brothers. He will return as the new David ruling from Jerusalem.hi georg
i was responding to tk ,for the children to born in the 1000years.
but you right .
I do believe Thinker,has a very great immagination working at full capacity.If you present you self as inspired you should make shure that all the scriptures agree with your statement.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 05 2009,04:20) Hi TT,
Really?
I think you are getting ahead of yourself as he still buffets the brothers.
Jesus is not ruling as King yet except in the hearts of his brothers. He will return as the new David ruling from Jerusalem.
And your proof that satan buffets 21st century brothers is found where? Last I read Paul was speaking to the first generation Christians. I don't see Nick, Jack or Keith in any of Paul's statements.thinker
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 05 2009,11:48) hi georg
i was responding to tk ,for the children to born in the 1000years.
but you right .
I do believe Thinker,has a very great immagination working at full capacity.If you present you self as inspired you should make shure that all the scriptures agree with your statement.
t,Thethinker stands on scripture alone and not on the books written by today's false prophets. In John's vision he saw the “ancient serpent” bound. This takes the binding of satan all the way back to the garden of Eden doesn't it? Jude says that the evil angels were in “everlasting chains.”
6 “And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day”;
There it is! The demons were bound BEFORE Jude wrote. Yet the futurists with their “great imaginations” tell us that this is to happen in the future.
If the demons are operating now then why does it say that they were “reserved in everlasting chains?” Why did John see the “ancient serpent” bound?
If my beliefs come from my imagination then you can easily refute me. But I don't see that happening.
Fact is, modern day Christians have a “great imagination.” The popular belief that satan is alive and well today is nothing more than superstition. Christians are obligated to discourage superstition.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 05 2009,12:15) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 05 2009,11:48) hi georg
i was responding to tk ,for the children to born in the 1000years.
but you right .
I do believe Thinker,has a very great immagination working at full capacity.If you present you self as inspired you should make shure that all the scriptures agree with your statement.
t,Thethinker stands on scripture alone and not on the books written by today's false prophets. In John's vision he saw the “ancient serpent” bound. This takes the binding of satan all the way back to the garden of Eden doesn't it? Jude says that the evil angels were in “everlasting chains.”
6 “And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day”;
There it is! The demons were bound BEFORE Jude wrote. Yet the futurists with their “great imaginations” tell us that this is to happen in the future.
If the demons are operating now then why does it say that they were “reserved in everlasting chains?” Why did John see the “ancient serpent” bound?
If my beliefs come from my imagination then you can easily refute me. But I don't see that happening.
Fact is, modern day Christians have a “great imagination.” The popular belief that satan is alive and well today is nothing more than superstition. Christians are obligated to discourage superstition.
thinker
Hi AllYet the Preterist says that the Devil and his demons were released for a season to tempt Jesus!
So with the Preterist view “Everlasting” didn't mean “Everlasting”.
The inconsistencys keep piling up!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 06 2009,04:55) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 05 2009,12:15) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 05 2009,11:48) hi georg
i was responding to tk ,for the children to born in the 1000years.
but you right .
I do believe Thinker,has a very great immagination working at full capacity.If you present you self as inspired you should make shure that all the scriptures agree with your statement.
t,Thethinker stands on scripture alone and not on the books written by today's false prophets. In John's vision he saw the “ancient serpent” bound. This takes the binding of satan all the way back to the garden of Eden doesn't it? Jude says that the evil angels were in “everlasting chains.”
6 “And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day”;
There it is! The demons were bound BEFORE Jude wrote. Yet the futurists with their “great imaginations” tell us that this is to happen in the future.
If the demons are operating now then why does it say that they were “reserved in everlasting chains?” Why did John see the “ancient serpent” bound?
If my beliefs come from my imagination then you can easily refute me. But I don't see that happening.
Fact is, modern day Christians have a “great imagination.” The popular belief that satan is alive and well today is nothing more than superstition. Christians are obligated to discourage superstition.
thinker
Hi AllYet the Preterist says that the Devil and his demons were released for a season to tempt Jesus!
So with the Preterist view “Everlasting” didn't mean “Everlasting”.
The inconsistencys keep piling up!
WJ
Keith,
It does not say that the demons were bound forever. It says that they were bound in everlasting chains. So “everlasting” is to be understood qualitatively. It means that the demons were bound in durable chains [until they were loosed].You evaded the fact that they were in chains long ago. They were loosed for the little season between Christ's appearances and then judged and cast into the lake of fire. According to John's vision it was the “ancient serpent” (satan) that was bound. This takes his binding back to the garden.
He was loosed for the “little season” and then judged. Paul assured the saints at Rome of this:
“And the God of peace shall break satan to pieces under your feet SHORTLY” (Rom. 16:20).
The belief that satan operates in the world today is superstition. Christians who believe this nonsense invite ridicule to Christianity.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 05 2009,16:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 06 2009,04:55) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 05 2009,12:15) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 05 2009,11:48) hi georg
i was responding to tk ,for the children to born in the 1000years.
but you right .
I do believe Thinker,has a very great immagination working at full capacity.If you present you self as inspired you should make shure that all the scriptures agree with your statement.
t,Thethinker stands on scripture alone and not on the books written by today's false prophets. In John's vision he saw the “ancient serpent” bound. This takes the binding of satan all the way back to the garden of Eden doesn't it? Jude says that the evil angels were in “everlasting chains.”
6 “And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day”;
There it is! The demons were bound BEFORE Jude wrote. Yet the futurists with their “great imaginations” tell us that this is to happen in the future.
If the demons are operating now then why does it say that they were “reserved in everlasting chains?” Why did John see the “ancient serpent” bound?
If my beliefs come from my imagination then you can easily refute me. But I don't see that happening.
Fact is, modern day Christians have a “great imagination.” The popular belief that satan is alive and well today is nothing more than superstition. Christians are obligated to discourage superstition.
thinker
Hi AllYet the Preterist says that the Devil and his demons were released for a season to tempt Jesus!
So with the Preterist view “Everlasting” didn't mean “Everlasting”.
The inconsistencys keep piling up!
WJ
Keith,
It does not say that the demons were bound forever. It says that they were bound in everlasting chains. So “everlasting” is to be understood qualitatively. It means that the demons were bound in durable chains [until they were loosed].You evaded the fact that they were in chains long ago. They were loosed for the little season between Christ's appearances and then judged and cast into the lake of fire. According to John's vision it was the “ancient serpent” (satan) that was bound. This takes his binding back to the garden.
He was loosed for the “little season” and then judged. Paul assured the saints at Rome of this:
“And the God of peace shall break satan to pieces under your feet SHORTLY” (Rom. 16:20).
The belief that satan operates in the world today is superstition. Christians who believe this nonsense invite ridicule to Christianity.
thinker
JackQuote (thethinker @ Dec. 05 2009,16:16) It does not say that the demons were bound forever. It says that they were bound in everlasting chains. So “everlasting” is to be understood qualitatively. It means that the demons were bound in durable chains [until they were loosed].
How convenient!So if Jude doesn't mean “everlasting chains” in a “real sense” but only “qualitatively”, then who is to say when Satan was loosed or bound, or for how long?
If “Everlasting” doesn't mean “Everlasting” then why do you insist that “Soon” or “shortly” or “quickly” means 15-40 years?
Also you call on Revelations where Satan was bound for “1000 years” yet you do not believe it was for a thousand years literally, but for some 4000 years.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath “reserved (strong's g5083 – tēreō)”in everlasting chains under darkness “UNTO THE JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT DAY”. Jude 1:6
Look real close at the scripture Jack. The Greek word “reserved strong's g5083 – TĒREŌ“; is in the “Perfect tense”, “Active voice” and the “Indicative mood” which as you know describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. In other words they were **RESERVED** “UNTO THE JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT DAY”! No going past go and no get out of jail free card!
So Jack there is no way these Angels were loosed for a season, but were held until Judgment day!
This passage in no way proves your theory Satan was bound for 4000 years then loosed during Jesus ministry and then bound again! That is not “Everlasting Chains”!
WJ
6 “And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day”;
These are the angels that gave up their first estate, heaven, and came down to earth and married woman, and bare children which became giants, Gen. 6, produced hybrids.
They are the once that corrupted God”s way, and the reason God destroyed the earth by a flood.
They are locked up until final judgment day.Georg
thethinker said:
Quote It does not say that the demons were bound forever. It says that they were bound in everlasting chains. So “everlasting” is to be understood qualitatively. It means that the demons were bound in durable chains [until they were loosed]. WorshippingJesus replied:
Quote How convenient! So if Jude doesn't mean “everlasting chains” in a “real sense” but only “qualitatively”, then who is to say when Satan was loosed or bound, or for how long?
Keith,
I fail to see how you think Jude 6 helps you. If the demons were bound for eternity then who or what was it that Jesus cast out of men? If they were bound in Jesus' day then how could they have possessed men and run so rampant as they did?The word “aidios” (everlasting) clearly modifies “chains.” The demons were bound in durable chains up to a point in time.
WorshippingJesus”
Quote And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath “reserved (strong's g5083 – tēreō)”in everlasting chains under darkness “UNTO THE JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT DAY”. Jude 1:6
I give you Barnes in whom you trust and I agree with him on this one:“The sense is, that the deep darkness always endures; there is no intermission; no light; it will exist forever. The passage in itself does not prove that the punishment against the rebel angels will be eternal, but merely that they are kept in a dark prison inwhich there is no light, and which will exist forever, WITH REFERENCE TO THE FINAL TRIAL” (Barnes on Jude, p. 391-392).
There it is bro! A futurist whom YOU TRUST takes “everlasting” in a similar way as I take it. Furthermore, He says that they are kept “with reference to the final TRIAL.” Barnes and I disagree only on the meaning of “krisis”, that is, the “final trial.”
The word “krisis” (judgment) may also refer to a trial. It is my contention that the demons were kept in the darkest abyss until the final trial when they were loosed. If the demons were bound forever as you say then where did the demons come from that Jesus cast out of men? And who or what was the “spiritual wickedness” that did warfare with the first generation Christians?
“For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
Those were some pretty long chains bro! You say that the demons were bound in the darkest abyss forever but yet were “in the heavens” doing warfare in Paul's time.
No! They were bound in the darkest abyss and then loosed for the great trial. The first generation Christians did serious warfare with them. And Paul said that the God of peace would crush satan under THEIR feet SHORTLY (Rom. 16:20). Afterwards satan and his hosts were cast into the lake of fire.You have created quite a conundrum for yourself haven't you? For you the demons were chained in the darkest abyss for eternity but they managed somehow to get out and possess men and engage in warfare with saints.
What part of the statement “the God of peace will crush satan under YOUR feet SHORTLY” do you not understand?
thinker
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