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bodhitharta said:
Quote You already believe that Jesus has retuned in 70 AD correct? This is the new earth to you correct?
bd,
Yes Jesus returned in ad70. He said that His generation would not pass away until they saw Him return. And yes we are in the new earth. Tradition has erroneously taught that sin and death will be eradicated in the new earth and so the new earth must be in our future. But the prophecies of Isaiah and John speak quite differently. According to Isaiah there is still aging and dying in the new earth. People still procreate and have children. Sinners live in the new earth too.Isaiah 65:17-23:
Quote 17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.Please note that it speaks about old men, dying, sinners and bringing forth children.
Tradition has taught us that physical death is eradicated in the new earth because Revelation 21:4 says that there will be “no more death.” But the word “death” here refers to “condemnation.” It is not speaking about the eradication of physical death at all. The gospel of John and the writings of Paul frequently define death as “condemnation.”
Furthermore, John's vision also shows that sinners are present in the new earth. They are not in the lake of fire. Sinners are right outsdide the gates of the city and are not permitted to enter into the city (22:14-15). John's vision also says that the gospel is still being offered. It says that the Spirit and the Bride invite men to come and partake of the water of life freely (22:17). The water of life flows from the throne of God in the new Jerusalem.
In other words, the new earth is simply apocalyptic for the covenentally renewed order, that is, the new covenant age.
The only place where sin and death are totally absent is in heaven where God dwells.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 26 2009,11:28) bodhitharta said: Quote You already believe that Jesus has retuned in 70 AD correct? This is the new earth to you correct?
bd,
Yes Jesus returned in ad70. He said that His generation would not pass away until they saw Him return. And yes we are in the new earth. Tradition has erroneously taught that sin and death will be eradicated in the new earth and so the new earth must be in our future. But the prophecies of Isaiah and John speak quite differently. According to Isaiah there is still aging and dying in the new earth. People still procreate and have children. Sinners live in the new earth too.Isaiah 65:17-23:
Quote 17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.Please note that it speaks about old men, dying, sinners and bringing forth children.
Tradition has taught us that physical death is eradicated in the new earth because Revelation 21:4 says that there will be “no more death.” But the word “death” here refers to “condemnation.” It is not speaking about the eradication of physical death at all. The gospel of John and the writings of Paul frequently define death as “condemnation.”
Furthermore, John's vision also shows that sinners are present in the new earth. They are not in the lake of fire. Sinners are right outsdide the gates of the city and are not permitted to enter into the city (22:14-15). John's vision also says that the gospel is still being offered. It says that the Spirit and the Bride invite men to come and partake of the water of life freely (22:17). The water of life flows from the throne of God in the new Jerusalem.
In other words, the new earth is simply apocalyptic for the covenentally renewed order, that is, the new covenant age.
The only place where sin and death are totally absent is in heaven where God dwells.
thinker
There is a problem with your thesisfirst of all: “the former shall not be remembered or come to mind” Has not occured
second: “The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.” Has not occured
third: “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
” has not occuredfourth:”For the child shall die one hundred years old,” Has not occured
I think you get the point.
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:25-27So it is your belief that Jesus died so that sin should remain always?
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 26 2009,11:28) bodhitharta said: Quote You already believe that Jesus has retuned in 70 AD correct? This is the new earth to you correct?
bd,
Yes Jesus returned in ad70. He said that His generation would not pass away until they saw Him return. And yes we are in the new earth. Tradition has erroneously taught that sin and death will be eradicated in the new earth and so the new earth must be in our future. But the prophecies of Isaiah and John speak quite differently. According to Isaiah there is still aging and dying in the new earth. People still procreate and have children. Sinners live in the new earth too.Isaiah 65:17-23:
Quote 17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.Please note that it speaks about old men, dying, sinners and bringing forth children.
Tradition has taught us that physical death is eradicated in the new earth because Revelation 21:4 says that there will be “no more death.” But the word “death” here refers to “condemnation.” It is not speaking about the eradication of physical death at all. The gospel of John and the writings of Paul frequently define death as “condemnation.”
Furthermore, John's vision also shows that sinners are present in the new earth. They are not in the lake of fire. Sinners are right outsdide the gates of the city and are not permitted to enter into the city (22:14-15). John's vision also says that the gospel is still being offered. It says that the Spirit and the Bride invite men to come and partake of the water of life freely (22:17). The water of life flows from the throne of God in the new Jerusalem.
In other words, the new earth is simply apocalyptic for the covenentally renewed order, that is, the new covenant age.
The only place where sin and death are totally absent is in heaven where God dwells.
thinker
thinkerHave you ever considered to become a science fiction writer?
Georg
Hi not 3,
I think we have found one of Gene's random intellects. Jesus came back and nobody noticed??I have to say that I'm a bit shocked by Thinker's news that he believes Jesus has already returned. I haven't been following everyone's theories too closely lately, but this one shocks me for some reason……..
I find it difficult to even believe in the “second coming” anymore though, so I shouldn't talk. No one has been able to show me where this second coming is in the OT? Where is it said that the messiah will “come again” and finish up what he started?
Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Now you can see that I have shown you through the scriptures that what you have been thinking is not correct(according to the scriptures)
BTW, there are no less than 70 “seas” so they would not exist if you were correct but climate change may fix that soon enough but for right now the seas still remain
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,19:46) Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Now you can see that I have shown you through the scriptures that what you have been thinking is not correct(according to the scriptures)
BTW, there are no less than 70 “seas” so they would not exist if you were correct but climate change may fix that soon enough but for right now the seas still remain
There should still be a sea – or at least a large mass of water covering the majority of the Earth's surface.It's billions of years away from draining into the crust, and if it all evaporated this planet will most likely resemble Venus. Given that the planet has been considerably warmer before without ending up like Venus and that the human contribution is relatively small compared to that still to come from the natural world, I'm pretty optimistic that existence will at least be theoretically possible for humans, and certainly life itself has been through greater extremes in the past.
Revelations regardless, I'm fairly sure our current civilisation hasn't got much left to run.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2009,11:46) Hi TT,
So you say.
Can we all allegorise the bible and teach our ideas as truth?
Isaiah answers Nick:Quote For the child shall die one hundred years old,
People still die in the new earth Nick.thinker
Georg said:
Quote thinker Have you ever considered to become a science fiction writer?
Georg
Georg,
I noticed that you did not comment on Isaiah's statement that physical death and sin continues in the new earth. It says also that sinners are there (65:20). Neither did you comment on John's vision which says that the Spirit and the Bride invite people to drink of the waters of salvation (22:17).Because of the books on prophecy you read you have a false expectation as the Jews did in Jesus' day. How about a real reply?
There will NEVER be an earth where there is no sin and death. This was promised us only in heaven. It is the contemporary books on prophecy that contain all the “fiction.”
thinker
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 26 2009,18:07) I have to say that I'm a bit shocked by Thinker's news that he believes Jesus has already returned. I haven't been following everyone's theories too closely lately, but this one shocks me for some reason…….. I find it difficult to even believe in the “second coming” anymore though, so I shouldn't talk. No one has been able to show me where this second coming is in the OT? Where is it said that the messiah will “come again” and finish up what he started?
Mandy,
I have stated this view many times here. Many Christians are looking for Jesus to return to earth when this was NEVER taught by Him or the apostles. Matthew's account says that “they would see the sign of the Son of Man IN HEAVEN” (Matt. 24:30).Paul said that the Lord would descend from heaven and that His people would meet Him IN THE AIR.
Jesus said that “this generation would not pass until ALL these things be fulfilled.” The expression “this generation” was Christ's own generation.
thinker
bodhitharta said;
Quote There is a problem with your thesis first of all: “the former shall not be remembered or come to mind” Has not occured
Yes it has occurred. According to Hebrews the daily sacrifices were a continual reminder of sin. We now have confidence toward God on the basis of Christ's once for all sacrifice. Since you deny that Christ was sacrificed then you would remember your sins. But those who believe do not.bodhitharta:
Quote second: “The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.” Has not occured
Yes it has occurred. Under the old covenant worship system the Jews were required to mourn and weep over their sins. But in the new covenant age we worship God rejoicing. We are expected to approach Him with boldness and not shame.bodhitharta:
Quote third: “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
” has not occuredfourth:”For the child shall die one hundred years old,” Has not occured
I think you get the point.
Yes it has occurred. This means that we are not covenant breakers in the new covenant age. We have the law of God written in our hearts and minds and we keep His covenant.
I think you get the point.
thinker
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,19:46) Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Now you can see that I have shown you through the scriptures that what you have been thinking is not correct(according to the scriptures)
BTW, there are no less than 70 “seas” so they would not exist if you were correct but climate change may fix that soon enough but for right now the seas still remain
bd,
In the Revelation the “sea” is sometimes used interchangeably with the “abyss” where the serpent was bound. It has reference also to hades which is the place of the dead. According to Isaiah's prophecy the new earth has coastlands (66:19). This necessarily infers that there is a literal sea in the new earth.I have answered your post about the abolition of crying in an earlier post. The Jews were required to mourn when they worshiped God. But we worship Him with rejoicing in the new coveant age, that is, in the “new heaven and earth.”
thinker
Quote (Douglas @ Oct. 27 2009,08:50) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,19:46) Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Now you can see that I have shown you through the scriptures that what you have been thinking is not correct(according to the scriptures)
BTW, there are no less than 70 “seas” so they would not exist if you were correct but climate change may fix that soon enough but for right now the seas still remain
There should still be a sea – or at least a large mass of water covering the majority of the Earth's surface.It's billions of years away from draining into the crust, and if it all evaporated this planet will most likely resemble Venus. Given that the planet has been considerably warmer before without ending up like Venus and that the human contribution is relatively small compared to that still to come from the natural world, I'm pretty optimistic that existence will at least be theoretically possible for humans, and certainly life itself has been through greater extremes in the past.
Revelations regardless, I'm fairly sure our current civilisation hasn't got much left to run.
Douglas,
I agree with you that there is a literal sea in the new earth but for different reasons. Isaiah's prophecy of the new earth says that there are coastlands which clearly means that there is a literal sea (66:19).People fail to read statements in the context of the whole book. The “sea” of John's vision is the ABYSS where the devil was bound. The words “sea” and “abyss” are sometimes used interchangeably in John's visions.
You are absloutely correct that there is still a sea, a large mass of water that covers the earth's surface. In this you have spoken correctly.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 28 2009,01:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,19:46) Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Now you can see that I have shown you through the scriptures that what you have been thinking is not correct(according to the scriptures)
BTW, there are no less than 70 “seas” so they would not exist if you were correct but climate change may fix that soon enough but for right now the seas still remain
bd,
In the Revelation the “sea” is sometimes used interchangeably with the “abyss” where the serpent was bound. It has reference also to hades which is the place of the dead. According to Isaiah's prophecy the new earth has coastlands (66:19). This necessarily infers that there is a literal sea in the new earth.I have answered your post about the abolition of crying in an earlier post. The Jews were required to mourn when they worshiped God. But we worship Him with rejoicing in the new coveant age, that is, in the “new heaven and earth.”
thinker
Okay then according to your theory Jesus has succeeded and has turned the Kingdom over to The Father i.e. Islam.Hi TT,
You really have no idea but teach confidently nonetheless?
I guess once you have accepted the gross folly of trinity anything goes?Wow! I don't know alot about all the religious stuff I see but I do know that Jesus returned to the earth and is here now. If you don't believe Jesus is here, now, then he couldn't be with God in your heart. He said he would come and he and the father would make their abode in us that where they are we are with them. If you believe that God is off somewhere else then you are in sin. If you believe we are all one together, then the truth has taken away your sin. If one is looking off to somewhere for Jesus to come from then you are separated from him now (in you mind).
He is here, now, cleansing and washing pure and clean his brothers and sisters that believe to recieve. The word of God, Jesus is here now. God Bless, TK
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