- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (acertainchap @ July 03 2007,00:32) Was Satan ever in heaven?
Or was Lucifer in heaven?
Was Lucifer ever in heaven?
Lucifer was merely the king of Babylon, not satan.Satan did present himself to God, but it is inferred that it was in heaven.
Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Tim
Ok but can you prove that Lucifer and Satan are not one in the same? Just because it jumps quickly from describing the king of babylon to talking about Lucifer, does not infer that they aren't one in the same. See where I'm coming from?
The king of babylon and Lucifer may not be one in the same after all. Lucifer may be totally different.
Quote (acertainchap @ July 03 2007,02:16) The king of babylon and Lucifer may not be one in the same after all. Lucifer may be totally different.
Hi chap,Just what is the Hebrew word found in the manuscripts that the translators turned into the Latin word Lucifer? It is very interesting. All of you with a Strong’s Concordance, look up this word Lucifer. Right after the word Lucifer we are given a definition before we ever go to the Dictionary to find the meaning. Here is what you will find: Lucifer (lu’sif-ur) {1} Title applied to king of Babylon. Strongs concordance says that it is a title applied to the king of Babylon.
Clearly the editor of Strong’s Concordance realized that this word (whatever it means) is to be applied to the “king of Babylon,” and NOT TO SATAN THE DEVIL!
Actually the original Hebrew word translated to lucifer was not lucifer at all, but I won't get in to that right now. Let it suffice to say that IS 14:11 was talking about the king of Babylon.
Tim
Hi ACC,
Satan has many names as shown in Rev 14 but lucifer does not appear there.
His meeting with God is likely to have been in heaven as he said he had been wandering on earth-at that time the kingdom of darkness.
We see him expelled from heaven with one third of the angels, also in revelation, so he had been there.Hi to you all
I am a logical, common sense kind a guy, and I always look at scriptures that way too, not without first asking God for his wisdom and Holy Spirit for guidance.
So hear is what I like to add;
Ez. 28:12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, thus saith the Lord God; thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.”
v. 13 “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering,…., the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee, IN THE DAY THOU WAST CREATED.”
v. 14 “Thou art the anointed Cherub that covereth; and I have set the so; thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.”
v. 15 “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”The King of Tyrus; which one?
Which king was CREATED perfect in beauty?
Which king of Tyrus was full of wisdom?
Which king was in Eden the garden of God?
Which king was an anointed Cherub?
Which king was on God's holy mountain/kingdom?I would have to ask similar questions if you say that Lucifer is the king of Babylon.
Is. 14:12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Which king of Babylon has fallen from heaven?
V.13 “For thou hast said in thy heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.”
Which king of Babylon has attempted to ascend to heaven to put his throne there above the stars?
v. 14 “I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.”
Which king has tried that?
Babylon and Tyrus were two proud kingdom, they ruled about 300 years apart.
I believe Jesus was referring to Lucifer when he said,Luke 10:18 “…I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.”
This is when iniquity was found in him; this is when Lucifer became Satan and got zapped.
This of course was long before Adam and Eve were created.
And yes, Satan had excess to heaven, until he was cast out;Rev. 12:7 “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.”
v. 9 “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”And if you want to know why things are getting from bad to worse?
v. 12 “…Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he has but a short time.”
God bless you all
Yes! He was in Heaven once 2,000 years ago. But, in that time he was called Lucifer the best and bright of all God's Angels. Until one day, he thought God liked him better then the other Angels. But, he thought wrong. Because of what he did, He and half of the other Angels got their wings, halos, and Angel gowns ripped off. They were put in chains and then got kicked out for always and eternity. They couldn't go back up there ever since. How did I know that? I read a book about Angels once. His name was Lucifer back then.Hi Ciara,
You'll find that we are a scriptural bunch on here. Anything put forward about such “spiritual” matters should be backed up from passages in the Bible. But thanks for the info!
LG-LP
Intersting,
pregnant woman in heaven? The dragons tails puling stars to earth, even the woman, where he could stand to devour here child, So from heaven she came, to the earth, then to the preapared place, where no unrighteousness shall enter, ever AmenRev 12:1 ¶ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
Rev 12:7 ¶ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.unrighteousness cannot enter, the city desending, no place found, and confused battle of garments rolled in blood, judged worthy and to be seated in the new heavenly places prepared for us
Hi charity,
The SIGN was in the heavens.[Gen 1]
Gemini, Draco, Corona Bernices, and the moon did a dance in 1997.{Was Satan ever in heaven?
Or was Lucifer in heaven?
Was Lucifer ever in heaven?}acertainchap….
In the Hebrew, the name Lucifer is translated from the Hebrew word “helel,” which means brightness. This designation, referring to Lucifer, is the rendering of the “morning star” or “star of the morning” or “bright star” which is presented in Isaiah. “How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High’” (Isaiah 14:12-14, NIV).
The context of this passage is a referral to the king of Babylon as presented in his pride, splendor and fall. However, it is to the power behind the evil Babylonian king that this is actually addressed. No mortal king would claim that his throne was above that of God or that he was like the Most High. The power behind the evil Babylonian king is Lucifer, Son of the Morning.
Lucifer is just another name for Satan, who as head of the evil world-system is the real, though invisible, power behind the successive rulers of Tyre, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and all of those evil rulers that we have seen come and go in the history of the world. This passage goes beyond human history and marks the beginning of sin in the universe and the very fall of Satan in the pristine, sinless spheres before the creation of man.
You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever” (Ezekiel 28:11-19, NIV).
This passage seems to be addressed to the “king of Tyre.” In reality, it goes beyond the king to the one who is behind the evil king of Tyre. This passage also has near and far prophecy about Lucifer/Satan because although his final end is already sure, it has not happened yet and it occurs after the final judgment (Revelation 20:7-10). In both the Isaiah passage and the Ezekiel passage, the representation is not of Lucifer/Satan as confined to his own person but his working in and the consummating of his plans through earthly kings and rulers who take to themselves divine honors and who, whether they actually know this or not, rule in the spirit and under the aims of Satan. “For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places” (Ephesians 6:12, NIV). Satan is the principality behind the powers of this corrupt world system.
Notice the statement that is given in the passage in Ezekiel, “the anointed cherub.” These statements could never apply to a human king but, they do apply to Lucifer/Satan who is behind the human king. This angel is the highest creature the LORD ever created. The LORD says of him, “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.” Satan was the wisest creature God ever created. No other angel, no other being was created with the intelligence that God gave to this creature. God says that this creation is “perfect in beauty.” Apart from the Holy Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit, this creature is today the highest being.
In verse Ezekiel 28:14 it says, “You were the anointed Cherub.” This tells us we are not talking about a human king. The word cherub is singular for cherubim. The cherubim are symbolic of God's Holy presence and His unapproachable majesty. These cherubim occupy a unique position. The “anointed cherub who covers” is the picture given to us in the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve had been sent out and God had placed cherubim to guard the way of the tree of life. Also, when Moses made the mercy seat and placed it into the tabernacle's Holy of Holies, God's glory came and dwelt between the cherubim. They “covered” the mercy seat with their wings. So we now see that Satan was a cherub and his position was to guard the very throne of God. His position was that of protecting the holiness of God. Satan had the highest of all positions, a position which he despised and lost. We have here in Ezekiel a picture of the highest of God's creatures, perfect in wisdom, beautiful beyond description, a musician and on top of all that, he was given this high, exalted position. But, this creation, with all of these wonderful attributes also had a free will. One day, God says to this marvelous creature, “Iniquity was found in you.”
What kind of iniquity was found of him? In the book of Ezekiel, God has let us stand with Him at the very beginning, to see the origin and the creation of Satan. But, why does God say this? What is this iniquity? We must look back to Isaiah 14:12, which tells us of Lucifer/Satan's choice. “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.” Did you notice in this passage all of the “I wills. ” He said he would exalt his throne above the stars of God. The word “stars” here does not refer to what we see in the night sky. It refers to the angels of God. In other words, “I will take over heaven, I will be God.” That is Lucifer/Satan's sin and that is the iniquity that was found in him. He does not want to be God's servant. He does not want to do what he was created to do. He wants to be served and there are millions who have chosen to do just that; serve him. They have listened to his lies and chosen to follow him. Eve believed the lie that she would be like God. The reason Lucifer/Satan tempted her with that was because it is the very thing that he wants — to be God.
Hi Seekingtruth,
You said, ” In the Hebrew, the name Lucifer is translated from the Hebrew word “helel,” which means brightness. This designation, referring to Lucifer, is the rendering of the “morning star” or “star of the morning” or “bright star” which is presented in Isaiah. “How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High’” (Isaiah 14:12-14, NIV). “You are correct that the Hebrew word helel means brightness, however if you look at the Hebrew interlinear concordance you will find that the word used in scriptures was the Hebrew word eill, no helel.
The Hebrew word eill translates to howl. The entire lucifer thing was made up. Lucifer is only used one time in the entire scriptures and it was put there by the original translaters.Tim
I will list the King James renderings of the word that is found in the “Hebrew” texts and transliterations of its various forms in every occurrence in the entire KJV Bible. Now you can be the judge. In all Hebrew of Aramaic texts of Isa. 14:12, the only word found is “heh-lehl,” eill, which is a form of the Hebrew stem “yah-lahl,” ill, meaning howl. Here is Kittel’s Hebrew Text for the Hebrew Stem ill—”yah-lahl”—HOWL:
Isa. 13:6 eiliu Howl ye
Isa. 14:31 eili Howl
Isa. 15:2 iilil shall howl
Isa. 15:3 iilil shall howl
Isa. 16:7 iilil Howl
Isa. 16:7 iilil shall howl
Isa. 23:1 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 23:6 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 23:14 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 52:5 eililu make to howl
Isa. 65:14 eililu shall howl
Jer. 4:8 ueililu Howl
Jer. 25:34 eililu Howl
Jer. 47:2 ueill and shall howl
Jer. 48:20 eilili Howl
Jer. 48:31 ailil will I howl
Jer. 48:39 eililu They shall howl (Howl ye)
Jer. 49:3 eilili Howl (Howl ye)
Jer. 51:8 eililu howl
Ezek.30:2 eililu Howl ye
Hos. 7:14 iililu They howled
Joel 1:5 ueililu And howl
Joel 1:11 eililu howl
Joel 1:13 eililu And shall be howlings
Amos 8:1 ueililu and howl
Micah 1:8 uailile howl ye
Zeph. 1:11 aililu Howl
Zech.11:2 eill howl
Zech.11:2 eililu howl
Isa. 14:12 eill Lucifer (??)I don’t believe one has to be a Hebrew scholar to see at a glance that “Lucifer” is totally out of place in this list. The meaning of this word is clear; eill is a verb that means “HOWL”, and not a noun than can be twisted into a personal name such as “lucifer”!
Taken from a discourse by L. Raay Smith.
Tim
Paul said we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against spiritual wickedness in high places. We are seated in heavenly places spiritually in Christ Jesus far above all principality and power. The bottom line is that all things are not yet under his feet, but God will accomplish it. Revelation 12 is yet to occur. After the war in heaven the woman is caught away in a wilderness place safe from the dragon during the tribulation for times, time, and a half (three and a half years). Then the antichrist is manifest in the following chapter.
Hi:
The following indicate that God is talking about a man in Ezekiel 28:
Quote Ezekiel 28
28:1
The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
28:2
Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; YET THOU ART A MAN and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:God continues to talk to the King of Tyrus in the following verses but IMHO also makes reference to Adam who was the anointed cherub (that is he was given the Word of God, telling him that he was free to eat from all of the trees in the garden except one and telling him the consequence of eating from it). It was Adam's responsibility to teach Eve what God had told him, and apparently he did, but instead of refusing to eat of the fruit of the tree after Eve had eaten, he ate of it also.
Quote 28:12
Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
28:13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
28:14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
28:16
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.We do know that the Serpent also known as Satan was in the Garden of Eden, but to say that Satan was an angelic being with God in heaven is speculation. The bible tells us that the Serpent was a beast that God created.
Quote Genesis 3
3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?We do know that heaven is a place. But based on the following scripture, I believe it can be a state of exaltation.
Quote Mt 11:23
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained * until this day.And it can also mean the Kingdom of God or of heaven based on the following scripture:
Quote 20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21 nor will they say, 'Lo, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” It seem highly unlikely that God would literally throw Satan out heaven and cast him down to earth for us to have to deal with him, therefore, it appears that these events are symbolically protrayed in heaven but are literally events that occur on the earth.
Quote Rev. 12:3
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.Quote
Rev.12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:12
Therefore * * rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.Quote John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
