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Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Mat 26:22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
Mat 26:23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,If Judas would not have betrayed Jesus then Jesus would not have been crucified. So was Judas a part of Jesus' ministry? The apostles asked IS IT I? Judas deliberately dipped his hand in the dish with Jesus. Did Judas volunteer. Was Judas “predestined” to betray Jesus and chose to obey God?
If Judas choose to do the will of the Father and betray Jesus (John 17:12) Will he be punished.
If we are predestained before the foundation of the world are tares also predestined?Quote (kenrch @ July 26 2006,09:06) Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Mat 26:22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
Mat 26:23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,If Judas would not have betrayed Jesus then Jesus would not have been crucified. So was Judas a part of Jesus' ministry? The apostles asked IS IT I? Judas deliberately dipped his hand in the dish with Jesus. Did Judas volunteer. Was Judas “predestined” to betray Jesus and chose to obey God?
If Judas choose to do the will of the Father and betray Jesus (John 17:12) Will he be punished.
If we are predestained before the foundation of the world are tares also predestined?
Hi Ken,My understanding of this is that:
1. Jesus called him the Son of perdition and said something to the effect that woe to him by whom such betrayal would come. Don't have the exact scripture at hand. Maybe later. Doesn't it also say somewhere that offenses would come but woe to the one by whom they comes.
2. We know that the Father tempts no one but that it is Satan's department.
3. Jesus said Satan had nothing on/in him by which he could tempt him. No buttons to push.
4. That tells me that Judas Iscariot followed the wrong Lord instead of the Lord of glory.
Scripture also says:
James 4:1 What is causing the quarrels and fights among you? Isn't it the whole army of evil desires at war within you? 2 You want what you don't have, so you scheme and kill to get it. You are jealous for what others have, and you can't possess it, so you fight and quarrel to take it away from them. And yet the reason you don't have what you want is that you don't ask God for it. 3 And even when you do ask, you don't get it because your whole motive is wrong-you want only what will give you pleasure.
Remember who was in charge of the treasury/money among the disciples and what they said was happening to the money?Who was chief among the disciples to complain when Jesus was anointed with the costly fragrance, who thought the money could be spent on the poor instead? Meanwhile, he was helping himself to the group expense account.
Buttons. Buttons.
Acts:15 During this time, on a day when about 120 believers* were present, Peter stood up and addressed them as follows:
16 “Brothers, it was necessary for the Scriptures to be fulfilled concerning Judas, who guided the Temple police to arrest Jesus. This was predicted long ago by the Holy Spirit, speaking through King David. 17 Judas was one of us, chosen to share in the ministry with us.”18 (Judas bought a field with the money he received for his treachery, and falling there, he burst open, spilling out his intestines. 19 The news of his death spread rapidly among all the people of Jerusalem, and they gave the place the Aramaic name Akeldama, which means “Field of Blood.”)
20 Peter continued, “This was predicted in the book of Psalms, where it says, `Let his home become desolate, with no one living in it.' And again, `Let his position be given to someone else.'*
21 “So now we must choose another man to take Judas's place. It must be someone who has been with us all the time that we were with the Lord Jesus-22 from the time he was baptized by John until the day he was taken from us into heaven. Whoever is chosen will join us as a witness of Jesus' resurrection.”Quote (Cubes @ July 27 2006,01:42) Acts:15 During this time, on a day when about 120 believers* were present, Peter stood up and addressed them as follows:
16 “Brothers, it was necessary for the Scriptures to be fulfilled concerning Judas, who guided the Temple police to arrest Jesus. This was predicted long ago by the Holy Spirit, speaking through King David. 17 Judas was one of us, chosen to share in the ministry with us.”18 (Judas bought a field with the money he received for his treachery, and falling there, he burst open, spilling out his intestines. 19 The news of his death spread rapidly among all the people of Jerusalem, and they gave the place the Aramaic name Akeldama, which means “Field of Blood.”)
20 Peter continued, “This was predicted in the book of Psalms, where it says, `Let his home become desolate, with no one living in it.' And again, `Let his position be given to someone else.'*
21 “So now we must choose another man to take Judas's place. It must be someone who has been with us all the time that we were with the Lord Jesus-22 from the time he was baptized by John until the day he was taken from us into heaven. Whoever is chosen will join us as a witness of Jesus' resurrection.”
Ok so God knew what Satan's plan was and who he was going to use.Very Good!
Bless you!
Kenrch
Cubes,
What do you think about predestination?
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Quote (kenrch @ July 27 2006,07:12) Cubes, What do you think about predestination?
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Hi Ken,The following scriptures answers the question of predestination for me:
John 3:15 that WHOEVER believes in Him should *not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.It is predestined, IMO, that whoever loves God should be saved, and that whoever prefers darkness should not. Somehow, I believe that God gave each of us that measure of faith necessary to choose him if we want, or it would not be necessary to obey.
That's just my thought.
In light of the Judas Iscariot topic, I felt to also add Romans 9 for balance.
Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”* 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”*
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”* 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”*14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”* 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”* 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea:“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”*
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
'You are not My people,'
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”*27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:*
“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”29 And as Isaiah said before:
“Unless the Lord of *Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”*30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law *of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, *by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”*Question though is this: In all of the scriptures, do you know of anyone who ever trusted God and was ultimately made ashamed or rejected by God? Daniel was saved from the Lion's den, as were the the three from the furnace; Job had more at the end than in in the beginning; Abraham had Isaac, Noah got on the Ark, …the list goes on. Jesus was raised from the dead and so took hold of victory for all who die in the Lord.
Ps 17:15 As for me I shall see your face in righteousness. I shall be satisfied when I awake in your likeness.
So God makes his plans but I don't believe that he tempts anyone to sin.Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,We were chosen before the foundation of the world. When God call those who he foreordained they have a choice to accept Jesus or reject Jesus and work for the adversary.
It's as though the sides for this war has been choosen before the war began. The only thing I'm sure of is that I'm on the right side the winner's side. Jehovah's side I'm part of His Family. Amen!
me dont think judas will burn,for jesus is not a liar for he had no sin,haveing gods spirit on him knowing all things,said these 12 would be seated with him to judge over the 12 tribes,me think he did any how,judas did betray jesus when the man of sin entered him as god alowed,just like satan entered peter,when jesus said satan get behind me,will peter burn ,or be seated with the twelve,hmmm,the only way judas could be still seated with the tweve,is if he reapented ,he must have ,because he hung himself in greef for his actions,this is god grace and love that he ofers us all if we just repent,if judas is not seated with the twelve then jesus must have lied,if he had lied his sacrifice would be of not.
Ps. 41:9: “The man at peace with me, in whom I trusted, who was eating my bread, has magnified his heel against me.”
Notice that the prophecy does not specify which close associate of Jesus it would be. Jehovah knew that the Devil had used David’s counselor Ahithophel to betray him, and He had that recorded because it demonstrated how the Devil operated and what he would do in the future.
It was not God but “the Devil . . . [who] put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray him [Jesus].” [John 13:2]
Instead of resisting, Judas yielded to that satanic influence.
John 6:64: “From the beginning Jesus knew . . . who was the one that would betray him.”
Not from the beginning of creation, nor from the time of Judas’ birth, but “from the beginning” of his acting treacherously. Compare Genesis 1:1, Luke 1:2, and 1 John 2:7, 13, in each of which texts “beginning” is used in a relative sense. Take note also of John 12:4-6.Quote (michaels @ July 21 2007,15:59) me dont think judas will burn,for jesus is not a liar for he had no sin,haveing gods spirit on him knowing all things,said these 12 would be seated with him to judge over the 12 tribes,me think he did any how,judas did betray jesus when the man of sin entered him as god alowed,just like satan entered peter,when jesus said satan get behind me,will peter burn ,or be seated with the twelve,hmmm,the only way judas could be still seated with the tweve,is if he reapented ,he must have ,because he hung himself in greef for his actions,this is god grace and love that he ofers us all if we just repent,if judas is not seated with the twelve then jesus must have lied,if he had lied his sacrifice would be of not.
Right on michaels. You are exactly right.Many say that Paul is one of the twelve who will be seated with Jesus.
But Paul was not among the twelve when Jesus said this,
Judas was.Jesus knew what Judas was going to do when He picked him.
He picked him for just that purpose.
God knew what Judas was going to do and it was in fact part of God's plan. If Judas had defied the plan of God, and not betrayed Jesus. Then everything in Christianity would have changed. The sacrifice of Jesus would not have been according to prophesy.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ July 21 2007,23:22) Quote (michaels @ July 21 2007,15:59) me dont think judas will burn,for jesus is not a liar for he had no sin,haveing gods spirit on him knowing all things,said these 12 would be seated with him to judge over the 12 tribes,me think he did any how,judas did betray jesus when the man of sin entered him as god alowed,just like satan entered peter,when jesus said satan get behind me,will peter burn ,or be seated with the twelve,hmmm,the only way judas could be still seated with the tweve,is if he reapented ,he must have ,because he hung himself in greef for his actions,this is god grace and love that he ofers us all if we just repent,if judas is not seated with the twelve then jesus must have lied,if he had lied his sacrifice would be of not.
Right on michaels. You are exactly right.Many say that Paul is one of the twelve who will be seated with Jesus.
But Paul was not among the twelve when Jesus said this,
Judas was.Jesus knew what Judas was going to do when He picked him.
He picked him for just that purpose.
God knew what Judas was going to do and it was in fact part of God's plan. If Judas had defied the plan of God, and not betrayed Jesus. Then everything in Christianity would have changed. The sacrifice of Jesus would not have been according to prophesy.Tim
Hi Tim:Judas, according to the following scripture was replaced by Matthias:
Quote 1:21
Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
1:22
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
1:23
And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
1:24
And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether * * of these two thou hast chosen,
1:25
That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
1:26
And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.And Jesus said:
Quote Mt 26:24
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed ! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.Mt 26:25
Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.God Bless
I would also like to add another twist to this because there is an important condition in Yeshua's statement which some may be overlooking:
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mat 19:29 “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.
———————————
Luk 22:28 “You are those who have stood by Me in My trials;
Luk 22:29 and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you
Luk 22:30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Judas was chosen, but did he ever truly follow? He was chosen for his role in what he would do, that is for certain, but we never see any indication that Judas stood by Yeshua in all of his trials. It was not until Yeshua was taken into custody that Judas realize where he stood with God, and even then he took the cowardly way out by killing himself.
When Judas was chosen, it is likely that he saw his involvement as a means of personal gain. If you try to find Judas in the Gospels, his only real mention is in relation to betrayal. You see no mention of him actually do anything in service to Yeshua.
Just another view.
did god come down from heaven,and say audably choose another disiple to replace,judas,or was it man who decided to do this thing,?hmmm
Quote (michaels @ July 22 2007,05:36) did god come down from heaven,and say audably choose another disiple to replace,judas,or was it man who decided to do this thing,?hmmm
Hi Michaels:The word Apostle means “sent by God”, and so it was men who were carrying out the will of God in choosing Matthias to replace Judas, but even David in the Psalms speaking by the Holy Ghost prophesied that someone would take his place.
Quote
Acts 1:13
And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode * both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
1:14
These all continued * with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
1:15
And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said *, (the number of names together * * were about an hundred and twenty,)
1:16
Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
1:17
For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
1:18
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
1:19
And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
1:20
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein *: and his bishoprick let another take.God Bless
Quote (michaels @ July 22 2007,05:36) did god come down from heaven,and say audably choose another disiple to replace,judas,or was it man who decided to do this thing,?hmmm
It was recorded in scripture and there was no opposition. What are we to make of it then?if the promise was to be seated judgeing the twelve tribes,if you follow me,! and judas dident follow him but betrayed him instead,then it makes more sence,that judas would not be there and have his seat given to another,and jesus could do this without lieing,for the promise was only if you follow me.
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