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Quote I feel that archaeology and tradition merge to show us that both methods were used at the time.
I agree.
So apparently, we have two ways of determining which was used. What the Bible says. And what archaelogy shows. I believe the Bible is stronger evidence as crosses have always and are always being found everwhere, including the moon. Often something comes along and seems to support the idea that Jesus died on a cross, only to be discounted later. See the website link I provided.I feel the Bible couldn't be any more clear. It uses the word “xylon” (a single simple pole, or piece of timber) and the word “stauros.” I feel the word “stauros” at that time meant simply an upright stake and only later came to include the possible meaning of a stake with a crossbeam.
Quote I see the evidence of very early christians 1st and 2nd century christians using the symbol.
Another reason I am leary of trusting archaeology findings against the Bible is that the Bible writers said the apostasy was “already at work” in the first century. Men were already slipping in, false teachers. The further we get from the first century, the less I trust it. The Bible is fairly clear I think.david
Maybe you know something about the language I dont. Is there a word that specifically means “stake with crossbeam”?
If both words existed and they used the one specific word xylon then I would concede and completely believe that your view is accurate.
Without that though I am forced to reference the verses that imply mulitple nails were used to nail Christs hands. I am also forced to acknowledge that, dispite the JW's claims, early christians did indeed use the cross as the symbol of the faith. Then they switched to the fish as a secret symbol. Symbols were important to identify each other since they lived in persecution.
John 20:25
25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.Is this next verse prophetics about Peter's death? Does it imply that he would “stretch out his hands” to be crucifide like Christ was? Tradition states Peter was crucified like our Lord, but asked to be crucified upside down so that he would not die in a manner mocking Christ. I honestly don't know but it is circumstantial evidence.
John 21:18-19
18″Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go.”
19Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me!”HGi,
It is interesting that Jesus taught about his followers having to carry their cross daily
before they knew what it meant for him.Hi,
It is interesting that Jesus taught about his followers having to carry their cross daily
before they knew what it meant for him.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 18 2008,13:39) Hi,
It is interesting that Jesus taught about his followers having to carry their cross daily
before they knew what it meant for him.
Hi Nick,
I have always thought that was interesting as well.
I also wondered what his followers thought He meant by that.Tim
David In your first post you said something about venerating the cross. I do know that the Catholics do venerate the cross on Good Friday. I truly believe that is an abomination. Only God the Father deserves such Honor. The cross itself whether it was a stake or cross is not important. What is important that He died for our Sins and now sits on the throne with our Heavenly Father. We can go to the throne of God through Jesus Christ who is our Mediator and ask for the forgiveness of our Sins.
Peace ad Love IreneI don't think it really matters what Jesus died on…but if you want to know my opinion I think it was probably a tradional cross..I don't think his crucifixion differed from the normal means of crucifiying that the Romans used…I think what he carried was the patibulum or crossbeam…but again..it does not matter HOW he died but WHY he died..so thats my .02
Quote What is important that He died for our Sins and now sits on the throne with our Heavenly Father. –Irene.
And what is so troubling Irene, is that so many view him either as a helpless babe in a manger or as a man dying on a cross. He is presently neither. He is at the right hand of God.
From my understanding, the cross symbol has to do with the equinox… sun worship and all. I also heard that the reason why romans impaled people on crosses is that the cross symbolized their god, and by killing someone on it, it was like saying that their god defeated them [the enemy/transgressor]. It was like the ultimate victory for tammuz [or mithras or whatever]
I believe as David and Eliyah on this one… that Messiah was impaled on a stake. However, I believe that it doesn't matter; the sacrifice is what is important…. but the symbol of a cross should not be venerated as it is pagan.
There are plenty of other symbols and figures of speech that are used in every day life that are also pagan and many people would be shocked and possibly angered to find them out….
Interesting thing to think about though: the animal sacrifices were a foreshadow of what was to come, especially the passover lamb. They were slaughtered on a board of wood… not a cross. [this doesn't really prove anything, however interesting]
Quote (david @ July 20 2008,07:14) Quote What is important that He died for our Sins and now sits on the throne with our Heavenly Father. –Irene.
And what is so troubling Irene, is that so many view him either as a helpless babe in a manger or as a man dying on a cross. He is presently neither. He is at the right hand of God.
“so many view him as…”This can be changed- one heart at a time. There is so much knowledge here. To whom much is given, much is required.
Just a little encouargement…
David! Even though I have not seen David post lately I do want to say about venerating the cross.
That is something the Catholics do on Good Friday. They not only venerate the cross, but the kiss it.
As far as I am concerned about that, it is an abomination to God. It becomes an Idol when you hold
it in high esteem. IMO
Peace and Love Irene
And…, it makes no sense to adore, kiss and almost worship a replica of what you believe Jesus was tortured on.
If your brother is killed with a gun, do you make a replica of that gun and kiss it? No, you abhor it.While his death meant everything and we are greatful, the instrument of his death …. do we adore it?
Quote (david @ Aug. 24 2009,19:23) And…, it makes no sense to adore, kiss and almost worship a replica of what you believe Jesus was tortured on.
If your brother is killed with a gun, do you make a replica of that gun and kiss it? No, you abhor it.While his death meant everything and we are greatful, the instrument of his death …. do we adore it?
No we should not. IMO the Cross should not even be in a Christian Home. We and all Catholics did and do, but not anymore. I believe if we kneel in front of a cross and pray it becomes an Idol. In Spirit and in truth wee are to worship God. Some of my former Friends told me that they need the cross to make it more meaningful to them. IMO that is wrong. It is the way that our Savior died and why would I want to venerate or even kneel in front of it and pray!!!! No and a thousand NOOOOO's.
Peace and Love IreneQuote Did Jesus die on a cross? If not, then the Greek manuscripts we have must have been tampered with. Um…but there is still time for you to ask Mohammad.
(joke…no…seriously…don't ask Mohammad)
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 26 2009,13:32) Quote Did Jesus die on a cross? If not, then the Greek manuscripts we have must have been tampered with. Um…but there is still time for you to ask Mohammad.
(joke…no…seriously…don't ask Mohammad)
You are Catholic and you do what I just said, right? If you really are a person that wants to do what God would want you to do, so why the wise cracks etc. It is not a joke or to jjoke about. In Math.15:9 “In vain they worship Me, teaching for the doctrine the commandment of men.
The trinityy doctrine is a doctrine that a man came up with., not God.
Irene
“Quote If not, then the Greek manuscripts we have must have been tampered with. Um…but there is still time for you to ask Mohammad. (joke…no…seriously…don't ask Mohammad)
Have you ever heard of a xylophone? It's an instrument made of wooden sticks.
The instrument of Jesus death was referred to by the words “stauros” and also “xylon.”STAUROS
The Greek word rendered “cross” in many modern Bible versions is stauroś. In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake, or pale. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece.
The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stauroś], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.
Douglas’ New Bible Dictionary of 1985 under “Cross,” page 253: “The Gk. word for ‘cross’ (stauros; verb stauroo . . . ) means primarily an upright stake or beam, and secondarily a stake used as an instrument for punishment and execution.”
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (1979) states under the heading “Cross”: “Originally Gk. staurós designated a pointed, vertical wooden stake firmly fixed in the ground. . . . They were positioned side by side in rows to form fencing or defensive palisades around settlements, or singly they were set up as instruments of torture on which serious offenders of law were publicly suspended to die (or, if already killed, to have their corpses thoroughly dishonored).”XYLON
The fact that Luke, Peter, and Paul also used xýlon as a synonym for stauroś gives added evidence that Jesus was impaled on an upright stake without a crossbeam, for that is what xýlon in this special sense means. (Ac 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Ga 3:13; 1Pe 2:24)
For example, Acts 5:30 refers to “hanging him on a tree.” 1 Peter 2:24 says “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree.”
Numerous translators of the Christian Greek Scriptures therefore translate Peter’s words at Acts 5:30 to read: “The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew, hanging him upon a stake [or, “tree,” according to the King James Version, New International Version, The Jerusalem Bible, and Revised Standard Version].”CA, you might also wish to check how your Bible translates xýlon.
Xýlon also occurs in the Greek Septuagint at Ezra 6:11, where it speaks of a single beam or timber on which a lawbreaker was to be impaled.
EZRA 6:11
“And by me an order has been put through that, as for anybody that violates this decree, a timber will be pulled out of his house and he will be impaled upon it, and his house will be turned into a public privy on this account.”
A Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, defines xýlon as meaning: “Wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc. . . . piece of wood, log, beam, post . . . cudgel, club . . . stake on which criminals were impaled . . . of live wood, tree.”
It also says “in NT, of the cross,” and cites Acts 5:30 and 10:39 as examples. (Oxford, 1968, pp. 1191, 1192) However, in those verses KJ, RS, JB, and Dy translate xýlon as “tree.” (Compare this rendering with Galatians 3:13; Deuteronomy 21:22, 23.)CRUX
True, the Romans did use an instrument of execution known in Latin as the crux. And in translating the Bible into Latin, this word crux was used as a rendering of stauroś. Because the Latin word crux and the English word cross are similar, many mistakenly assume that a crux was necessarily a stake with a crossbeam. However, The Imperial Bible-Dictionary says: “Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole, and this always remained the more prominent part.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.
Christ could well have been impaled on a form of crux (stauroś) known as the crux simplex. That was how such a stake was illustrated by the Roman Catholic scholar Justus Lipsius of the 16th century
The Latin dictionary by Lewis and Short gives as the basic meaning of crux “a tree, frame, or other wooden instruments of execution, on which criminals were impaled or hanged.” In the writings of Livy, a Roman historian of the first century B.C.E., crux means a mere stake. “Cross” is only a later meaning of crux. A single stake for impalement of a criminal was called in Latin crux siḿplex. One such instrument of torture is illustrated by Justus Lipsius (1547-1606) in his book De cruce libri tres, Antwerp, 1629, p. 19.THE CROSS IN CHRISTIAN ART
“The use of the cross as a symbol was condemned by at least one church father of the 3rd century CE because of its Pagan origins. The first appearance of a cross in Christian art is on a Vatican sarcophagus from the mid-5th Century.” (B.M. Metzger, M.D. Coogan, “The Oxford Companion to the Bible,” Oxford University Press, (1993), Page 57)
“THE sign of the cross has been a symbol of great antiquity, present in nearly every known culture. Its meaning has eluded anthropologists, though its use in funerary art could well point to a defense against evil. On the other hand, the famous crux ansata of Egypt, depicted coming from the mouth, must refer to life or breath. The universal use of the sign of the cross makes more poignant the striking lack of crosses in early Christian remains, especially any specific reference to the event on Golgotha. Most scholars now agree that the cross, as an artistic reference to the passion event, cannot be found prior to the time of Constantine.”—Ante Pacem—Archaeological Evidence of Church Life Before Constantine (1985), by Professor Graydon F. Snyder, page 27.
“The representation of Christ’s redemptive death on Golgotha does not occur in the symbolic art of the first Christian centuries. The early Christians, influenced by the Old Testament prohibition of graven images, were reluctant to depict even the instrument of the Lord’s Passion.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. IV, p. 486.
(Ex. 20:4, 5, JB: “You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.”)
Concerning first-century Christians, History of the Christian Church says: “There was no use of the crucifix and no material representation of the cross.”—(New York, 1897), J. F. Hurst, Vol. I, p. 366.EVEN IF IT WERE A CROSS
Recall Paul’s statement: “Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.” Would it not be better to think of Christ as a glorious enthroned King!—Galatians 3:13; Revelation 6:2.
True Christians need no material object like a cross to help them worship God. For, as Paul exhorted, they “are walking by faith, not by sight.”—2 Corinthians 5:7.A PAGAN SYMBOL
The cross has been used through history as an object of pagan worship and of superstitious awe. (Compare 1 Cor 10:15; 1 John 5:21)
“Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world. India, Syria, Persia and Egypt have all yielded numberless examples . . . The use of the cross as a religious symbol in pre-Christian times and among non-Christian peoples may probably be regarded as almo
st universal, and in very many cases it was connected with some form of nature worship.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1946), Vol. 6, p. 753.
“It is strange, yet unquestionably a fact, that in ages long before the birth of Christ, and since then in lands untouched by the teaching of the Church, the Cross has been used as a sacred symbol. . . . The Greek Bacchus, the Tyrian Tammuz, the Chaldean Bel, and the Norse Odin, were all symbolised to their votaries by a cruciform device.”—The Cross in Ritual, Architecture, and Art (London, 1900), G. S. Tyack, p. 1.
“The cross in the form of the ‘Crux Ansata’ . . . was carried in the hands of the Egyptian priests and Pontiff kings as the symbol of their authority as priests of the Sun god and was called ‘the Sign of Life.’”—The Worship of the Dead (London, 1904), Colonel J. Garnier, p. 226.
“Various figures of crosses are found everywhere on Egyptian monuments and tombs, and are considered by many authorities as symbolical either of the phallus [a representation of the male sex organ] or of coition. . . . In Egyptian tombs the crux ansata [cross with a circle or handle on top] is found side by side with the phallus.”—A Short History of Sex-Worship (London, 1940), H. Cutner, pp. 16, 17; see also The Non-Christian Cross, p. 183.
“These crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian sun-god, [see book], and are first seen on a coin of Julius Cæsar, 100-44 B.C., and then on a coin struck by Cæsar’s heir (Augustus), 20 B.C. On the coins of Constantine the most frequent symbol is [See book]; but the same symbol is used without the surrounding circle, and with the four equal arms vertical and horizontal; and this was the symbol specially venerated as the ‘Solar Wheel’. It should be stated that Constantine was a sun-god worshipper, and would not enter the ‘Church’ till some quarter of a century after the legend of his having seen such a cross in the heavens.”—The Companion Bible, Appendix No. 162; see also The Non-Christian Cross, pp. 133-141.The Encyclopædia Britannica: “From its simplicity of form, the cross has been used both as a religious symbol and as an ornament, from the dawn of man’s civilization. Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world.” (Eleventh Edition, Vol. VII, p. 506)
HOW THE CROSS BECAME CHRISTIAN
“The shape of the [two-beamed cross] had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.”—An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (London, 1962), W. E. Vine, p. 256.Quote If you really are a person that wants to do what God would want you to do, so why the wise cracks etc. It's called a JOKE. Lighten up. Enjoy life a little. Laughter is AWESOME medicine.
Quote (david @ Aug. 24 2009,19:23) And…, it makes no sense to adore, kiss and almost worship a replica of what you believe Jesus was tortured on.
If your brother is killed with a gun, do you make a replica of that gun and kiss it? No, you abhor it.While his death meant everything and we are greatful, the instrument of his death …. do we adore it?
So true, David. I have felt this way about the cross for a while now. I was raised to adore songs like, “At the cross” and so on…… Billy Graham made the cross a Christian icon in a way that no other leader has for our generation.But our Father is the God of the living….. The cross brought death. Ultimately it stands for torture, you are correct. What Jesus' sacrifice means is another story, but the cross was where he was beat, mocked, stabbed, and killed. I really don't think Jesus would want to see the cross again, woud he?
I wonder how Jesus would feel knowing so many Christians where this symbol around their necks? Or have them in their churches, and homes? I don't know? I think Jesus knows we are mere flesh, and we are only trying to honor him with our actions…… We will not fully know anything until that Day. Until then, we press on with what we know. For some of us, that means adoring the cross/stake.
Love,
Mandy
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