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Hey Seeking Truth,
You said:Quote David,
I agree 100% with you on not setting up the cross as something to be worshiped or even adored (it's what was accomplished on it that matters). However I do not have a problem with it as a symbol (an icon if you will).
But is it a Christian symbol?The Encyclopædia Britannica: “From its simplicity of form, the cross has been used both as a religious symbol and as an ornament, from the dawn of man’s civilization. Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world.” (Eleventh Edition, Vol. VII, p. 506) H
Hence, the cross does not have what some might term a “Christian” origin.
It definitely is a relgious symbol though.Scripture Seeker, does it not at least disturb you a little that the symbol of the cross in various forms has always been a pagan symbol?
This is what Christendom did when the apostasy began–they took celebrations and gave them a Christian name (and some they kept with a pagan name, ie: Easter) they adopted pagan beliefs (immortality of the soul, hellfire, trinity, etc) and they even adopted a pagan symbol–one in which many already had as a symbol.Quoting from David's post on the first page:
The book The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons (London, 1896), says: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross. . . . It is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.”—Pp. 23, 24; see also The Companion Bible (London, 1885), Appendix No. 162.———————————
That pretty much sums it up! As a “technical point,” it appears Jesus was crucified on a “pole/upright stake,” rather than a “cross.” As a matter of faith, I doubt it makes a difference, as the point is he died as the final blood sacrifice, regardless of the exact form of the so-called “cross.”
Scripture seeker,
With regard to your cut and chop encyclopedias and dictionaries on the meaning of “stauros,” if you were to look at the complete quotations of those definitions, you would find that Greek dictionaries, lexicons and other study books declare the primary meaning of stauros to be an upright pale, pole or stake. The SECONDARY MEANING of “cross” is admitted by them to be a “later” rendering. At least two of them do not even mention “cross,” and only render the meaning as “pole or stake.” In spite of this strong evidence and proof that the word stauos should have been translated “stake,” and the verb stauroo to have been translated “impale,” almost all the common versions of the Scriptures persist with the Latin Vulgate's crux (cross), a “later” rendering of the Greek stauros.
“There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross. . . . It is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.”—The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons (London, 1896) Pp. 23, 24.
THE CROSS
–Symbol of Christianity?How would someone feel, if every time his birthday came around, his mother insisted on bringing out snapshots showing what he was like when he was a baby? People like to be recognized for what they are now, not just for what they were as infants.
It is rather similar concerning life and death. People hope to be remembered for what they accomplished in life, not for what they lo9oked like in their last moments. Hence, when a statue is erected in honor of a famous man, it usually shows him standing upright and strong, or engaged in some activity for which he was famous, not suffering in his death agonies.
In view of this, it is interesting how Jesus is usually envisioned by most people. At Christmas time he is represented as a helpless babe in a manger. The rest of the year he is most often shown as a man dying in agony. Is this a balanced representation of someone who is now a glorious enthroned King?–Gal. 3:13; Rev 6:2
There is no other symbol among the many churches of Christendom that is considered to be more Christian than that of the cross. It is considered the foremost symbol of Christianity for many centuries. Untold multitudes have prayed before it in their churches and reverenced it in their homes. It appears inside and outside of church buildings, on clerical vestments, on covers of Bibles, on coffins and gravestones, on necklaces earrings, on Christmas cards and Christmas decorations and on a great number of other things. It is without doubt the predominating religious symbol in countries that claim to be Christian. The New Encyclopaedia Britannica calls the cross “the principal symbol of the Christian religion.” In a court case in Greece, the Greek Orthodox Church even asserted that those who reject the ‘Holy Cross’ are not Christian. For centuries multitudes have accepted the cross as a symbol of Christianity. But is it really? Is that what the Bible and the facts of history show? Is the traditionally shaped cross really a Christian symbol? Is it something we would want to worship or even cherish? Is it something we would want to wear around our necks? A good place to begin would be with this question:Did Jesus die on a Cross?
Hi David,
You already know my answer and I don't want to press it any further least it become an argument (I obviously haven't persuaded you, nor you me, so we will have to agree to dis-agree). But I would like to ask a couple of questions.To point out that the cross has been abused by some worshipping it does not make the cross itself bad. Wouldn't you agree that if there had been proof it was a stake then those same people would have worshiped it instead?
You stated “For centuries multitudes have accepted the cross as a symbol of Christianity.” Doesn't that statement show that by default that makes it the perfect icon?
Reading through your posts you seem to have a need for it not to be a cross.
For my part I think of Jesus most often as my soon coming King, but it never hurts to remember what it cost Him for my redemption.
Quote To point out that the cross has been abused by some worshipping it does not make the cross itself bad. Wouldn't you agree that if there had been proof it was a stake then those same people would have worshiped it instead?
No. I don't believe that at all. First, a quote:
“Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world. India, Syria, Persia and Egypt have all yielded numberless examples . . . The use of the cross as a religious symbol in pre-Christian times and among non-Christian peoples may probably be regarded as almost universal, and in very many cases it was connected with some form of nature worship.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1946), Vol. 6, p. 753.
Since the symbol of the cross is “almost universal” with many pagans using it in worship before Christ, it wasn't very hard to keep it as a religious symbol.
Christmas was long before Christ, but by another name. Had it not existed with the trees, lights, gifts, Satans Claws, the date itself, commercialism, etc, would we celebrate Christmas in it's present form? Or would people actually start a celebration of remembering his birth on a more correct date without the “exchanging of gifts” as practiced by the Roman Saturnalia? I'll tell you this: It would be 1/1000th as popular.So would people start worshipping a pole, and have a straight line as a symbol if Jesus died on a stake (stauros, xylon)? Well, the early Christians wouldn't have, that's for sure. But would the pagans? No, they already had their cross to worship.
And yes, I know that the fact that most people already worshiped a cross before Jesus death does not prove that he didn't die on a cross…anymore than the fact that long before Jesus, on the week of Dec 25th, pagans celebrated the Roman Saturnalia (by exchanging gifts, had holly, mistletoe, evergreens, lights, etc,) proves that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th.
It's the Bible that proves he wasn't born on December 25th.As far as I can tell, the burden of proof rests on you to tell me why you believe the stauros on which Jesus died, wasn't an ordinary stauros (stake) as that is the primary meaning of the word.
Quote You stated “For centuries multitudes have accepted the cross as a symbol of Christianity.” Doesn't that statement show that by default that makes it the perfect icon?
are you joking? In some cultures, the cross was a phallus (representing genetalia.) In some, it represented Tammuz, for example, a false God. It is not the perfect icon, unless by perfect, you mean popular.Quote For my part I think of Jesus most often as my soon coming King, but it never hurts to remember what it cost Him for my redemption.
I agree.I read somewhere that Tammuz was the son of Nimrod who in the Babylon religion was a carnal impersonation of the son of God. Crosses were included in the religion as was the crossing of oneself. “T” for Tammuz?
Certainly the cross itself is an icon that is not unique to Christianity, I do not think it is only Christians that wear them, as an icon it spans many cultures that are non christian.I think we have to be careful however in our rejection of all that appears to be pagan.
Bearing in mind that much of it is impersonation of the truth.
I have heard many arguements from clever people who dismiss all religions as pagan based on the fact that they all have similarities.
Now while it is true the cross is a pagan icon, it is also possible that this very symbol of paganism was the instrument upon which our Lord was brutally murdered.
It would be fitting in some ways for this to be so. For he was made sin for us and now many misguided people make an idol and icon out of the most harrowing image of this fact…
I prefer to remember him as a man with nail prints in his hands and feet, after all he got off that old cross…
The closest type we find to Christ being lifted up to die is found in the Church in the wilderness under Moses. God provided for them a brass serpent upon a pole which was to be lifted up above the people.
As I understand it the brass represents Divine Judgement and the Serpent represented Sin, so the whole thing represented sin judged and the result for them was physical healing.
Divine Healing is a type of the resurrection and interestingly the brass serpent on the pole is the symbol of the medical profession to this day.
One last thought, Jesus died upon a tree. This is not usable to argue whether that which he hung on was a cross or a stake or whatever, as a tree has many boughs and branches and looks like none of these.Quote “T” for Tammuz?
Hey Malcolm,Quote I think we have to be careful however in our rejection of all that appears to be pagan.
Bearing in mind that much of it is impersonation of the truth.It might APPEAR that much of paganism is copying Christianity. But I see it as Christendom incorporating paganism into itself–wrongly.
What a coincidence–Jesus was born on Dec 25th and coincidentally, that's the date of an ancient pagan celebration. It may seem so. But it is not.Quote Now while it is true the cross is a pagan icon, it is also possible that this very symbol of paganism was the instrument upon which our Lord was brutally murdered. So what your'e saying is–you're not sure.
Maybe it is a coincidence that this ancient pagan “almost universal” symbol of the cross was also the symbol adopted by Christianity a couple hundred years after his death–coincidentally, around the time they also started accepting other paganisms and making changes (as was fortold)Quote One last thought, Jesus died upon a tree. This is not usable to argue whether that which he hung on was a cross or a stake or whatever, as a tree has many boughs and branches and looks like none of these.
While it does not prove that Jesus died on a stake, it does seem to imply that it was not a cross.
That word is used elsewhere in the Bible. It means “wood, timber.”Xýlon also occurs in the Greek Septuagint at Ezra 6:11, where it speaks of a single beam or timber on which a lawbreaker was to be impaled. In this case the word xylon would definitely seem to be a single beam of timber, let's call it…a stake.
EZRA 6:11
“And by me an order has been put through that, as for anybody that violates this decree, a TIMBER will be pulled out of his house and he will be impaled upon it, and his house will be turned into a public privy on this account.”
(Now, Malcolm, did they pull a cross from house?)
A Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, defines xýlon as meaning: “Wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc. . . . piece of wood, log, beam, post . . . cudgel, club . . . stake on which criminals were impaled . . . of live wood, tree.” It also says “in NT, of the cross,” and cites Acts 5:30 and 10:39 as examples. (Oxford, 1968, pp. 1191, 1192) However, in those verses KJ, RS, JB, and Dy translate xýlon as “tree.” (Compare this rendering with Galatians 3:13; Deuteronomy 21:22, 23.)There's also the word that is translated crusify, or more accurately, “impale.”
But I have to go eat now. Talk to you later.Quote (david @ April 29 2006,00:09) Quote “T” for Tammuz?
Hey Malcolm,Quote I think we have to be careful however in our rejection of all that appears to be pagan.
Bearing in mind that much of it is impersonation of the truth.It might APPEAR that much of paganism is copying Christianity. But I see it as Christendom incorporating paganism into itself–wrongly.
What a coincidence–Jesus was born on Dec 25th and coincidentally, that's the date of an ancient pagan celebration. It may seem so. But it is not.Quote Now while it is true the cross is a pagan icon, it is also possible that this very symbol of paganism was the instrument upon which our Lord was brutally murdered. So what your'e saying is–you're not sure.
Maybe it is a coincidence that this ancient pagan “almost universal” symbol of the cross was also the symbol adopted by Christianity a couple hundred years after his death–coincidentally, around the time they also started accepting other paganisms and making changes (as was fortold)Quote One last thought, Jesus died upon a tree. This is not usable to argue whether that which he hung on was a cross or a stake or whatever, as a tree has many boughs and branches and looks like none of these.
While it does not prove that Jesus died on a stake, it does seem to imply that it was not a cross.
That word is used elsewhere in the Bible. It means “wood, timber.”Xýlon also occurs in the Greek Septuagint at Ezra 6:11, where it speaks of a single beam or timber on which a lawbreaker was to be impaled. In this case the word xylon would definitely seem to be a single beam of timber, let's call it…a stake.
EZRA 6:11
“And by me an order has been put through that, as for anybody that violates this decree, a TIMBER will be pulled out of his house and he will be impaled upon it, and his house will be turned into a public privy on this account.”
(Now, Malcolm, did they pull a cross from house?)
A Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, defines xýlon as meaning: “Wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc. . . . piece of wood, log, beam, post . . . cudgel, club . . . stake on which criminals were impaled . . . of live wood, tree.” It also says “in NT, of the cross,” and cites Acts 5:30 and 10:39 as examples. (Oxford, 1968, pp. 1191, 1192) However, in those verses KJ, RS, JB, and Dy translate xýlon as “tree.” (Compare this rendering with Galatians 3:13; Deuteronomy 21:22, 23.)There's also the word that is translated crusify, or more accurately, “impale.”
But I have to go eat now. Talk to you later.
David
I agree that Christianity as it is called today and accepted by most is little more than paganism repackaged, my point about the cross was that it would be quite possible that it was used in this defamatory fashion to torture victims who did not confess to the god of this world, (I know that they had crosses long before the Catholics adopted the iconization of them), I believe that the Church burnt many saints at the cross because they would not confess to the “universal faith” (heresy), which runs parallell to the pagan practice of feeding the children to the fire…
My statement about much of paganism copying Christianity or impersonating it falsely is referring to the original religion of Babylon in which the first pagan trinity was formulated, the worship of the mother and son was instigated, the son was said to have been virgin born and to have died and risen again. and each member of the original triad: Nimrod, his wife Semiramis and the son Tammuz were said to be gods. Seems the Devil had a little insider knowledge (full of wisdom Eze 28:12) which he used to attempt to pervert things from the very start…
As far as the instrument of torture is concerned it is interesting that Tammuz was said to have died by hanging on a tree, Judas also hung on a tree (so in effect there were 4 crosses: 1 for Judas, 1 for the theif that went with him, 1 for Jesus, 1 for the theif that went with him)
Anyway, cross or stake or tree or whatever, it is all conjecture, what is not conjecture is that he died, and that it acheived for us great things.Hi David,
Sorry for the late reply, I was not going to reply but you continue to judge! From your last comment about war you said I am coming from where everyone else is coming from, that being the world, you not only judge me but everyone else that doesn’t agree with you. Who are you to judge me or others that are truly trying to seek the truth? Let’s leave Gods word to judge our conscience and his spirit to lead us to all truth.
Show me how your Churches teachings align with Gods word, the word is truth! If you believe the Jehovah Witnesses Church has prevailed against the Church which the gates of hell wont prevail against please show me how in the last days the Jehovah Witnesses Church has become the pillar and ground of truth?Mat 7:1 JUDGE NOT, THAT YOU MAY NOT BE JUDGED.
You consider Hitler to be a fine Catholic, do you not judge every Catholic?
Quote from Adolf Hitler:
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death…. When understanding of the universe has become widespread… Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity…. Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity…. And that's why someday its structure will collapse…. …the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little…. Christianity [is] the liar…. We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
If you need more quotes from Hitler about the Church happy to provide themWas Hitler Excommunicated?
The conference of German bishops excommunicated all Nazis in 1930, and in the 1932 elections forbade Catholics to vote for a Nazi. By being the leader of the Nazi party, Hitler had already put himself outside of the Church.
Hitler was also already excommunicated ipso facto under the canon law of the Catholic Church for his numerous sinful crimes.
Hitler was excommunicated two fold! Hitler deserves no special treatment to any other Nazi, excommunication is excommunication.You pass judgement on the Pope as if he was Hitler’s friend? Why not do some study on what the Jews say about him? I don’t want to go on about the dangers of passing judgement, so here’s a few links for you to gain some understanding of what really happened.
Jewish historian praises the Pope for his conduct.
http://academics.smcvt.edu/pcoutur…._xi.htmThe Real Story of Pius XII and the Jews BY JAMES BOGLE {JEWISH)
http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/realstory.htmBlaming the war time Pope, (How many life’s did the Pope save? Why not find out)
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0002.htmlThe Myth of Hitler’s Pope
http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods48.htmlI have other articles from various sources if needed also REMEMBER that Catholics where also murdered by Nazis 3,000,000 in Poland alone!
Now please test the teachings and not the people within the Church.
Gods word calls us to test and not judge!1Th 5:21 BUT PROVE ALL THINGS: HOLD FAST THAT WHICH IS GOOD.
Again test the teachings AND NOT THE PEOPLE. Yes even the people who where inspired by the Holy Spirit to write Gods own Word where sinners some of them even murder among many other crimes. Was not Paul a great persecutor of the Church.
Here’s a mild example I will provide about testing the teaching and not the people.
The men of Sodom WILL BE resurrected (WT, 7-1879, 7-8).
The men of Sodom WILL NOT be resurrected (WT, 6-1-1952, 338).
The men of Sodom WILL BE resurrected (WT 8-1-1965, 479).
The men of Sodom WILL NOT be resurrected (WT 6-1-1988, 31).
The men of Sodom WILL BE resurrected (“Insight on the Scriptures”, Vol. 2, 985).
The men of Sodom WILL NOT be resurrected (Revelation: Its Grand Climax at Hand! 273)
The men of Sodom WILL BE resurrected (Live Forever, early ed., 179).
The men of Sodom WILL NOT be resurrected (Live Forever, later ed., 179).
How can you believe what they say about anything they teach about resurrection when they change there mind so many times?
The Watch Tower changes its mind even in the same year! Is this a case of the light getting brighter and brighter?
This is why Gods word talks about standing fast and to hold onto the traditions! This is why if you would take the time to study the Church fathers you would find that the teachings on the Eucharist, Confession, anointing of the sick, laying on of hands, justification not by faith alone, Hell and the new law of love just to name a few align to the word of God and the Church.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, STAND FAST, AND HOLD THE TRADITIONS which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
The stake is not a tradition of the Church not before 100AD or any other time!
It doesn’t really matter what Jesus was crucified on, what matters is this!Joh 15:13 GREATER LOVE HATH NO MAN THAN THIS, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
I don’t understand why the idea of the stake or tree is so important to you!
Would you like me to post what the early Church fathers say about the cross?
Remember David God looks at the heart and not at the outward appearance of man.
If someone wears a cross and it helps them to remember the wonderful and precious sacrifice that our Lord done for them what’s wrong with this?Also David the Stake that Jehovah Witnesses uses also has pagan background and as you would have seen from my previous links even has a PAGAN God crucified to a STAKE. The image that the Watchtower provides looks almost identical to that of the PAGAN God. So let’s leave God to judge the heart.
1Co 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
It’s all about our conscience the law written in the heart, the law of love. Does God judge people for wearing crosses or does he not judge the Heart
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, FASTENING IT TO THE CROSS.
Col 2:15 And despoiling the principalities and powers, he hath exposed them confidently in open shew, TRIUMPHING OVER THEM IN HIMSELF.
Col 2:16 LET NO MAN THEREFORE JUDGE YOU IN MEAT OR IN DRINK OR IN RESPECT OF A FESTIVAL DAY OR OF THE NEW MOON OR OF THE SABBATHS,
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come: BUT THE BODY IS OF CHRIST.
Col 2:18 Let no man seduce you, willing in humility AND RELIGION OF ANGELS, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh:
Col 2:19 And not holding the head, from which the whole body, by joints and bands, being supplied with nourishment and compacted, groweth into the increase of God.
Col 2:20 If then you be dead with Christ from the elements of this world, WHY DO YOU YET DECREE AS THOUGH LIVING IN THE WORLD?
Col 2:21 TOUCH NOT: TASTE NOT: HANDLE NOT.We are not meant to worry about tasting touching or handling we need to examine our hearts not what we wear on the flesh!
David I think you’re a great person who seeks God, I do not judge you. I know I am from the dust. I care about Jehovah Witnesses and always invite them, I have prayed with some of them that are open to pra
ying with a Catholic. Please take what I say with Love.Does the watchtower have a teaching for where Jesus fits in the commandments?
If not, does it not at least bother you that they haven’t got a teaching for where Jesus fits into the commandments of love?
Is he united with his Father in the First and greatest commandment or do the Watchtower teach to treat Jesus as our neighbor [as ourselves]?
Is it not the most important teaching a Church should have nailed down?God Bless
OK, we'll step away from the “stauros” (stake) and “xylon” (timber) for a second.
I grew up a Catholic. My Father is a Catholic. Almost all my relatives are Catholics. The people I went to school with were Catholics, every one. I know Catholics. I was once one.What I say, I have no problem saying: In general, based soley on the hundreds of Catholics I have known and know, Catholics are not great supporters or promoters of the Bible. You may be one of the exceptions, as your zeal and willingness to even discuss the Bible is far beyond what I have seen in Catholics (not every Catholic, just the hundreds I have known.)
JAMES 4:4
“Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.”So if someone shakes hands with the world, and says: “Hey there friend,” am I wrong to call him an enemy of God?
Quote Was Hitler Excommunicated?
The conference of German bishops excommunicated all Nazis in 1930, and in the 1932 elections forbade Catholics to vote for a Nazi. By being the leader of the Nazi party, Hitler had already put himself outside of the Church.
Hitler was also already excommunicated ipso facto under the canon law of the Catholic Church for his numerous sinful crimes.Ok, I didn't know that.
All I know is that many wanted him specifically excommunicated and the pope refused. A plea was made by delegates from forty-eight Polish, Jewish, Slovakian and Lithuanian societies met at Chicago, Illinois, for the pontiff of Vatican City to excommunicate Adolf Hitler, but Pope Pius XII refused to excommunicate that war-mad “son of the church.”—Buffalo, N.Y., Evening Express as of August 29, 1939; The Catholic Telegraph-Register, of Cincinnati, Ohio, Section 2, as of September 1, 1939.
Here, is the entire article in the Catholic Telegraph-Register, Cincinnati, Ohio, of September 1, 1939:
Quote “REARED AS CATHOLIC BUT VIOLATES FAITH SAYS CABLE TO POPE “250 Chicago Delegates from Nations, Religious Veteran’s Trade Union Bodies Join in Startling Appeal.
“(While we carry the article below as an interesting news item, we do not agree editorially that it is wise to seek action on such a grave matter as excommunication. It is best to leave to the church authorities all such matters. They know best all the points involved and the possible consequences.—EDITORS.)
“(By James Colvin)
“CHICAGO (Exclusive)—An appeal has been made to Pius XII that Reichsfuehrer Adolph Hitler be excommunicated.
“The Resolution [was] sent in at the height of the European delegates of Nations, Religious, Veterans’, and Trade Union Groups, banded together in the United Organizations for the Defense of Democracy.
“Copies of the cablegram were sent to George Cardinal Mundelein of Chicago, William Cardinal O’Connell of Boston, Dennis Cardinal Dougherty of Philadelphia, and Archbishop Amleto Giovanni Cicognani Apostolic Delegate to United States at Washington.
“‘Adolph Hitler,’ it read in part, ‘was born of Catholic parents, was baptized a Catholic, and was reared and educated as such. While publicly by his words, deeds and orders he has become the world’s greatest menace to Christianity, and to civilization, he has not publicly up to the present time declared himself outside of the Church of his parents, and has not repudiated his membership therein, thus remaining subject to the laws and discipline of the Church.
“‘Firmly believing that the pronouncing of excommunication upon Adolph Hitler will help the cause of freedom, Christianity, Humanity, and civilization at this time, we hereby respectfully plead, appeal, and petition your Holiness publicly to proclaim and impose excommunication of Adolph Hitler.’
“One of the speakers at a mass meeting declared: ‘we petition to make saints, thus recognizing the power of the Papacy. If such action holds good there, why not here?’ Included in the organizations represented at the meeting were units of the Polish National Alliance, branches of the Polish Roman Catholic Unions, and its joint Committee of Slovak organizations.”
Quote Remember David God looks at the heart and not at the outward appearance of man.
If someone wears a cross and it helps them to remember the wonderful and precious sacrifice that our Lord done for them what’s wrong with this?
I have seen many in high station in the Catholic faith kissing the instrument of Jesus death, as though they adore that torture device. While the act of Jesus dying means so very much, his death was a painful torturous event.
Can you imagine, in your wildest dreams, one of the early Christians who was there, after Jesus had died, and was taken down, this Christian going up to that instrument of his death (stauros, or xylon) and kissing it?
A Father does not kiss the gun that shot his son, but rather, he holds it as something detestable. It would be Satan that would view the instrument of Jesus death as something to be adored, not those who love Christ.Quote David I think you’re a great person who seeks God, I do not judge you. I know I am from the dust. I care about Jehovah Witnesses and always invite them, I have prayed with some of them that are open to praying with a Catholic. Please take what I say with Love. Quote From your last comment about war you said I am coming from where everyone else is coming from, that being the world, you not only judge me but everyone else that doesn’t agree with you. Who are you to judge me or others that are truly trying to seek the truth?
It almost feels like you are judging me.Quote I have other articles from various sources if needed also REMEMBER that Catholics where also murdered by Nazis 3,000,000 in Poland alone!
94% of Germany at the time claimed to be Christian. How many of them were Catholic?
So it would appear that Catholic was slaughtering Catholic, by the hundreds of thousands. There were Catholic leaders on both sides saying that God was on their side.1 JOHN 3:10-12
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother.”Hi Mercy. I thought there was much more here. At one time I had a lot of information on this. Then, my hard drive died, and I lost a lot. But there is some information here.
David,
Yes I know it was a pagan symbol. You think Jesus died on a stake. I think he died on a stake as well. I just think that stake had a cross beam attached to it. Every symbol in the world has pagan associations. However, which came first the true religion or the pagan religions? Cherubim in the bible look just like babylonian Lammasu.
Romans 1:21-23
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.The truth was first and pagans copied and twisted it.
Jesus cannot help the fact he died on a pagan symbol.
There are many reasons I think Jesus died on a cross. I know the greek word is stauros. However, the cross is technically a stake. This verse implies that he had multiple nails in his hands rather than a single nail. On a stake only one nail would be needed.
John 20:25
25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.The JW's say that no archaelogical evidence exists before 300 AD of the cross. This simply is not true. Many ossuaries found from the first and second centuries have the cross on them sygnifying them as christians. The catacombs of Rome where christians hid from persecution are filled with crosses. The list could go on. JW's are simply wrong on this point.
In my opinion this is simply another example of the JW's stepping out on the limb and declaring they know something as a fact when then they simply don't.
Now, I do agree that the cross should not be worshipped. I also agree that portraying cross in his weakest state at all times is not good. I simply think that the cross is the symbol of our faith.
1) I don't worship any image
2) As long as I am not subjected to seeing Jesus in that state to much, then it comforts me and reminds me of what he did for me. I much prefer invisioning him on his White Horse as the triumphant returning King or as the loving Shepard if it is an image I would see often.
3) Jesus was a real man. I have folders and folders filled with images of real people. My family and friends in photo albums. I dont consider this idolatry.
4) I am not trying to make an image of the INVISIBLE YHWH.1 Corinthians 2:2
2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.Paul dwelt on the scene in my avatar for along time. Just as all of us do I am sure he thought about it with mental pictures. It is natural. Lets do a test. I want you to think of the word 'hippopotamus' but I don't want you to have a mental image of it. Very hard to do isn't it?
That avatar represents that verse to me in a way.
Quote You think Jesus died on a stake. I think he died on a stake as well. I just think that stake had a cross beam attached to it. I have yet to see any Biblical evidence for a crossbeam, or that what Jesus died on was anything other than an ordinary “stauros.” The word “xylon” is also used in connection with the instrument of his death. This word simply means “timber,” as in the word XYLOphone.
Satan must love that the very instrument Jesus is shown to have died on is a very pagan symbol.
Here's a question for you Mercy. What do you think of those who adore the cross, kiss it and honor it? While his death meant so much, would the instrument of torture he died on be something we “love.” (ie: If your son died by a knife, would you hang a knife around your neck adore such a symbol?) I don't believe you do any of this, but would you want to be associated with such a symbol, a symbol that is pagan, a symbol that seems to misrepresent biblical truth?
Quote his verse implies that he had multiple nails in his hands rather than a single nail. On a stake only one nail would be needed. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (1979, Volume 1, page 826) comments: “The exact number of nails used . . . has been the subject of considerable speculation. In the earliest depictions of the crucifixion Jesus’ feet are shown separately nailed, but in later ones they are crossed and affixed to the upright with one nail.”
It's similar with his hands. (Really his wrists, but in those days, the wrist was considered part of the hand, as there is a scripture that speaks of putting a bracelets on the “hand,” I think.)
We don't know how many nails were used. The person may have put 4 nails into each hand. We don't know. Executions this way were neither pretty nor perfect.
“Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails.” (John 20:25) That could have meant a nail through each hand, or the plural “nails” might have reference to nail prints in ‘his hands and his feet.’ (See Luke 24:39.) We cannot know precisely where the nails pierced him, though it obviously was in the area of his hands. The Scriptural account simply does not provide exact details, nor does it need to.Oh, I should have mentioned this scripture:
“See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself.” (Luke 24:39)
It seems that his feet may have been nailed to. So we really don't know. As little as 2 nails may have been used, one for the feet, one for the hands.
This in no way contradicts John 20:25.Also, Thomas did not specifically mention Jesus’ feet. But his comment about “the print of the nails” may have included Christ’s hands and feet, though only the hands were named.
I agree about the kissing and adoring. That is idolatry.
However, I believe we are to remember the cross. The whole bloody image of it.
I would not want to remember a bullet used to kill my son. However, the death of my son would not mean anything to the world. The death of God's son is the most important thing in the world. That is a huge difference. It should be remembered every graphic detail. It is the blood that saves us.
Looking towards the cross and Christ's sacrifice is horrible, but it is exactly the thing all men need to seek. It saved us.
You go on to state how nobody knows how many nails were used or how exactly Christ was crucified. That is exactly my point. JW's sure like to teach as fact things that can only remain opinions via lack of official evidence.
In my opinion the evidence weighs in favor that christ did indeed die on a cross.
Quote You go on to state how nobody knows how many nails were used or how exactly Christ was crucified. That is exactly my point. JW's sure like to teach as fact things that can only remain opinions via lack of official evidence. We don't know how many nails were used. The Bible doesn't say. We do know that he died on a “stauros” (stake or pole) or “xylon” (timber).
See:
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/stauros.htmDavid,
I did want to acknowledge that, of course, I can be wrong and it could be simply an upright stake. Either one of us could be wrong. I feel that archaeology and tradition merge to show us that both methods were used at the time. I feel the evidence leans in favor of the cross. You feel it leans in favor of the stake.
The real contention here is the use of the symbol for the Christian faith. You feel it is a borrowed pagan symbol. I feel that it was used because Christ really died on the cross.
I see the evidence of very early christians 1st and 2nd century christians using the symbol. In fact I was just watching a documentary last night about this underground city in turkey built for christians to hide. They used the cross symbol and they are early 2nd century christians. 1st century ossuaries have been found with the cross symbol.
It is simply my belief that the symbol was used, as the fish, as a christian symbol. Just as the early hebrews used the cherubim as a symbol.
Underground city.
http://turkey.rdricketts.com/uncity.html
“The Christian presence here since about the first century A.D. came to an end. Only the fine works of Christian art were left.” – quote
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