Was christ born on december 25

Participant

Quote (Laurel @ Dec. 30 2010,21:27)

ALL of the Pagan man-made mighty ones were born on the winter solstice (birth of the sun). How did this happen? They are all the same person whom the whole world worshipped in Babylon before the languages were changed! Tammuz, Zeus, Mithra, were all born on Dec. 25th! and for anyone who may still be decieved, santa claus IS NOT real, but Satan is.

The Messiah was born in the fall, what we call September/October, which is the 7th month on the Creator's calander. He was born in a Tabernacle/Sukka, and was circumcised on the eighth day “according to Scripture” which was a High Sabbath that year, also know as the Last Great Day and The Day of the LORD, the last day after the Feast of Tabernacles/Sukkot.

But ya'll wouldn't know that since you celebrate the sun-day and forsake the Sabbaths of the All Mighty.

Did you all realize that the name September means seven, October means eighth, November means nine, and December means 10.

Yahushua Messiah was born in the 7th month, which means He was concieved durring Chanukkah, and why not? He is the light of the world!

Hi Laurel,
I agree with you about Christ being conceived during Hanukah which can fall on Dec. 25th, btw.

I have had some thoughts about the seventh day sabbath and I believe that the old creation had the seventh day as the sabbath, the day of rest, from the finished work of God the creator but the new creation keeps the sabbath in the belief of Christ and the finished work of Christ the Savior. The sabbath of the new creation isn't related to the believer's physical work like in the old creation but Christ's work. Every day we are to honor the Lord. Christian's get together weekly to have regular fellowship, not to keep the sabbath of the old creation or to keep the sabbath of the new creation. They keep the sabbath of the new creation when they enter and remain in the belief in Christ by faith. It is no longer a day but it does begin the day you believe in Christ and His finished work, as I see it.

Heb 4:1-10
4 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”;
5 and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.”
6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
NASU

The things of the OT were often shadows of the true spiritual event or events to come as I understand.

December 31, 2010 at 4:23 am#230636

Participant

Quote (Laurel @ Dec. 30 2010,22:02)

He was NOT born in a cave either! Religion and all the books written by men make me sick. Only Scripture is the trustworthy inspired word of the All Mighty and anything else is a lie.

Laurel,
A cave can be a barn for livestock or abode for people. I don't know how you can be so certain to say that it wasn't a cave. God the Father certainly could have had His Son born in a cave type shelter and even given them another cave type shelter for a longer term. My point is, the Bible doesn't say that it wasn't a cave so we shouldn't assume that a cave wasn't their abode when the Magi came.

December 31, 2010 at 4:30 am#230638

Participant

Kathi

you say;;Hi Laurel,
I agree with you about Christ being conceived during Hanukah which can fall on Dec. 25th, btw.

====================================================

could you tell me for sure that God made it this way or is that another illusion in the will of expectation of the unknown??

now then is it now a possibility and then with your brain make it close enough to kill the truth.??

Pierre

December 31, 2010 at 4:38 am#230641

Laurel

Participant

Lighten up,
The Sabbath memorial was instituted at creation. Keeping the 7th day Sabbath is a sign to YHWH Elohim that He is our El, and that we esteem Him alone as Creator, Sustainer, and Savior. The Sabbath proclaims the Good News!

Your words about old creation and new creation are “new to me” and i have read Scripture and loved Scripture for many years, never having read there about a new creation or anywhere where the Sabbath memorial, and sign of His everlasting covenant was ever changed to the SUN's day which is the day of pagan worship to their false elohim, and always has been since Babylon.

In the words of my favored Teacher, “Till heaven and earth pass, not one yood nor one flourish shall pass from the Torah till ALL is fulfilled.”

So as long as this planet remains, so does His Torah.

The problem is that we have been taught to “separate” ourselves from the Jews rather than embracing them. They are Yahushua's kinfolk. There may only be one place where we can meet face to face and agree with them, and this is in the Torah which the Messiah kept, and was “in the flesh.” To reject a single letter of Torah is to reject the Messiah.

Without Torah there is no need for a Messiah! No law, no sin, no Messiah necessary! It is the favorite lie of the Deceiver.

I choose life. I choose Torah, and know why i need a Messiah and when He was born, and why He had to die, because i believe Torah which teaches me righteousness from wrongness, and i know that YHWH is ELohim.

Every command, statute, and law has some spiritual lesson to teach us, so why not learn from the Creator Himself and embrace His word, all of it!

Yahushua said that even if a man came back from the dead an unbeliever in Moses' Torah would not believe the One who came back from the dead.

December 31, 2010 at 5:02 am#230647

Participant

Laurel,
Here are some verses that speak of believers in Christ as a new creation/creature. The new creation/creature replaces the old creation/creature which we are to lay aside and conform to the ways of the new creation/creature.

Gal 6:15-16
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
NASU

2 Cor 5:17
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
NASU

Eph 2:10-22
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands — 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
NASU

Eph 4:24-25
24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
25 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.
NASU

Col 3:10-17
10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him —
11 a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.
12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.
15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.
NASU

I hope that helps

December 31, 2010 at 5:35 am#230657

Participant

Laurel,
you said:

Quote

You might read my post again (first one on this page) and see that Christians haven't changed the sabbath day from the seventh day of the week, God changed the sabbath day to the day you believe in Christ and enter into His rest, NOT to the Sun's day. It is no longer a weekly day. Christians don't call Sunday the sabbath day unless they are confused. The sabbath of the old creatures (those who are unbelieving Jews) remains to be on the seventh day of the week but the sabbath of the new creatures begins on the day they believe in Christ as their savior by faith. On that day, they enter into a rest that lasts forever not just a 24 hour period once a week.

Some Christians may say that they keep the sabbath on the first day of the week but technically, they are keeping the sabbath everyday of the week since they believed in Christ by faith. The early Christians have been meeting regularly on the first day of the week, not as a weekly religious sabbath, from, at least, a time during the 2nd century and probably soon after Pentecost…in fact, they were meeting everyday for a while after Pentecost. They met on the first day of the week because it was the day that the Lord Jesus was resurrected which allowed for the church to begin to form and live, according to what I read from Justin the Martyr. Hundreds of years later, as I understand it, Constantine made the first day of the week officially a day where people rested from their work and held their day of regular Christian worship. The fact that the pagans already set that day aside weekly made it easier to bring them over to Christianity. It had an evangelical edge to it that way.

You do know that what once was pagan can be destroyed and replaced by the recognition of the true God, don't you? There is an example of just that in the OT where God had His people destroy a pagan altar and build a new one for Him on the same spot as where the pagan one was, even using the wooden carved Ashterah idol that was there, as some of the wood fuel to burn. Christians simply destroy the lie of the pagan days and replace them with ways of the new creature in Christ.

December 31, 2010 at 5:40 am#230659

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2010,22:30)

Kathi

you say;;Hi Laurel,
I agree with you about Christ being conceived during Hanukah which can fall on Dec. 25th, btw.

====================================================

could you tell me for sure that God made it this way or is that another illusion in the will of expectation of the unknown??

now then is it now a possibility and then with your brain make it close enough to kill the truth.??

Pierre

Pierre,
It is an educated guess based on the fact that a pregnancy is about 9 months long. Many believe He was born mid to late September…do the math. Also, the Festival of Lights would make a great time to bring to the world the 'Light of the world.' Conception is when that happened. The Son came to earth at conception. Life begins at conception.

December 31, 2010 at 5:41 am#230660

Participant

Kathi

this is your say;You might read my post again (first one on this page) and see that Christians haven't changed the sabbath day from the seventh day of the week, God changed the sabbath day to the day you believe in Christ and enter into His rest, NOT to the Sun's day. It is no longer a weekly day. Christians don't call Sunday the sabbath day unless they are confused. The sabbath of the old creatures (those who are unbelieving Jews) remains to be on the seventh day of the week but the sabbath of the new creatures begins on the day they believe in Christ as their savior by faith. On that day, they enter into a rest that lasts forever not just a 24 hour period once a week.

===============================================
is this your opinion or you have scriptures to prove it ??

Pierre

December 31, 2010 at 5:45 am#230661

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 31 2010,22:40)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2010,22:30)

Kathi

you say;;Hi Laurel,
I agree with you about Christ being conceived during Hanukah which can fall on Dec. 25th, btw.

====================================================

could you tell me for sure that God made it this way or is that another illusion in the will of expectation of the unknown??

now then is it now a possibility and then with your brain make it close enough to kill the truth.??

Pierre

Kathi

you have learned to talk for nothing,and with deceit,

i know how it works I have 3 children and assist in two,

that was not my point we do not know the day or do you ??

well then tell us

one more were in scriptures anyone paid attention to the date of conception??I mean after it was born that is.

Pierre

December 31, 2010 at 6:06 am#230671

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y279109

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2010,23:41)

Kathi

===============================================
is this your opinion or you have scriptures to prove it ??

Pierre

Pierre,
The scriptures are in the same post you quoted me from. The info on the 2nd century Christians was found in the writings of Justin the Martyr and the info about Constantine was found in early historical writings.

Pierre and Laurel,
I bumped a post that I made about this here:

December 31, 2010 at 6:13 am#230673

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2010,23:45)

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 31 2010,22:40)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2010,22:30)

Kathi

you say;;Hi Laurel,
I agree with you about Christ being conceived during Hanukah which can fall on Dec. 25th, btw.

====================================================

could you tell me for sure that God made it this way or is that another illusion in the will of expectation of the unknown??

now then is it now a possibility and then with your brain make it close enough to kill the truth.??

Pierre

Kathi

you have learned to talk for nothing,and with deceit,

i know how it works I have 3 children and assist in two,

that was not my point we do not know the day or do you ??

well then tell us

one more were in scriptures anyone paid attention to the date of conception??I mean after it was born that is.

Pierre

Pierre,
Like I said to someone before, It is the religious and legalists that argue over such stuff. IMO

I do not care to argue with you about this, I have told you that it was an educated guess.

Also, I found this:

Quote

By the way, it is said that when Mary conceived Yeshua, it was actually around December 25. Think about this for a second. He wasn’t born on December 25, but there are two things to see here. Number one, in the Jewish culture of His day, the day you were conceived was actually considered your birthday. Also, it was Chanukah time, and it was around Chanukah, which is the Festival of Lights, that the Light of the World was conceived. Even though Chanukah was a manmade festival, Yeshua still celebrated it.

from here: http://jewishvoice.wordpress.com/2010….irthday

December 31, 2010 at 7:23 am#230695

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 31 2010,23:13)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2010,23:45)

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 31 2010,22:40)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2010,22:30)

Kathi

you say;;Hi Laurel,
I agree with you about Christ being conceived during Hanukah which can fall on Dec. 25th, btw.

====================================================

could you tell me for sure that God made it this way or is that another illusion in the will of expectation of the unknown??

now then is it now a possibility and then with your brain make it close enough to kill the truth.??

Pierre

Kathi

you have learned to talk for nothing,and with deceit,

i know how it works I have 3 children and assist in two,

that was not my point we do not know the day or do you ??

well then tell us

one more were in scriptures anyone paid attention to the date of conception??I mean after it was born that is.

Pierre

Pierre,
Like I said to someone before, It is the religious and legalists that argue over such stuff. IMO

I do not care to argue with you about this, I have told you that it was an educated guess.

Also, I found this:

Quote

from here: http://jewishvoice.wordpress.com/2010….irthday

January 1, 2011 at 6:37 am#230891

Participant

Quote

A cave can be a barn for livestock or abode for people. I don't know how you can be so certain to say that it wasn't a cave. God the Father certainly could have had His Son born in a cave type shelter and even given them another cave type shelter for a longer term. My point is, the Bible doesn't say that it wasn't a cave so we shouldn't assume that a cave wasn't their abode when the Magi came.

–Lightenup (Underlining added for emphasis)

Actually, the Bible does say. (Unless the word that is translated “house” can also be translated as “cave.)

Matthew 2:1-2:
“Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.”

However, Matthew 2:11 states that they came to His house:
Matthew 2:11 “And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him…”
And Matthew 2:16 states that Herod had all the children two years and under slain, according to the time he learned from the wise men.

Matthew 2:16 “Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.”

I really don't know how that could be clearer. Herod wanted Jesus dead. He inquired about Jesus with these Magi (astrologers really). And BASED on what he was told, he had all children 2 and younger killed.

It is simply TRADITION that the “3 wise men” who are actually an unspecified number of magi, arrived just after Jesus birth.
Therefore it is likely that Jesus was 1 to 2 years old.

January 1, 2011 at 6:40 am#230892

Participant

Here is another fascinating clue that I never thought of before:

When did the astrologers arrive?

(Definitely not within first 8 days of Jesus birth)

Magi gave Joseph/Mary gold, frankincense myrrh when they visited. Yet, 8 days after giving birth, Mary only gave either a pair of turtle doves or 2 young pigeons (Luke 2:21-24) They were only to do this, according to the law, if they didn’t have enough for a sheep. (Lev 2:1-8)

Could not the money (gold/frankinsense/myrrh) easily buy a sheep?It appears they didn't have that gold at the time because the magi hadn't visited them yet.

January 1, 2011 at 6:42 am#230893

Participant

Quote

We don't know the exact date, you are correct, but to not celebrate it because there are others that are/were celebrated on that date seems to be a 'religious' and 'legalistic' reason to me.

The earliest Christians did know the date. And yet, they didn't celebrate it. It was not celebrated for a few hundred years.

I think the ones who were taught by Christ directly, the ones who lived before the foretold apostasy knew what they were doing.

January 1, 2011 at 6:48 am#230894

Participant

Quote

Is it wrong to celebrate Hanukah too at the end of December because the sun god (who doesn't even exists) was celebrated during that time by the pagans?

But wouldn't purposefully picking the date of the sun god be wrong?

If Hitler and Obama lived at the same time and were enemies, and Hitler died, and nazi's decided to throw a party every year on the day of his birth commemorating and honoring him… would it make sense when Obama dies to try to supplant that day by saying his birthday was on that day, and by incorporating nazi customs and decorations and customs into Obama's remembrance?

So why does it make sense to do that with Christ and a celebration wrapped around false gods?

January 2, 2011 at 4:20 am#231008

Participant

Quote (david @ Jan. 01 2011,00:37)

Quote

–Lightenup (Underlining added for emphasis)

Actually, the Bible does say. (Unless the word that is translated “house” can also be translated as “cave.)

It is simply TRADITION that the “3 wise men” who are actually an unspecified number of magi, arrived just after Jesus birth.
Therefore it is likely that Jesus was 1 to 2 years old.

David,
The Greek word for 'house' is:

NT:3614
oi)ki/a
oikia (oy-kee'-ah); from NT:3624; properly, residence (abstractly), but usually (concretely) an abode (literally or figuratively); by implication a family (especially domestics)

I don't think that cave can be ruled out because a cave can be an abode. Also, where would Joseph come up with the money to buy a house before given the gifts of the Magi? I never thought of them abiding in a cave dwelling but maybe that was God's provision to keep them hidden away. Some caves are quite large and even today one hears of tribes living in cave dwellings.

I found this on the web, it talks about Jesus being born in a cave:
http://www.bible-truth.org/BirthPlaceofJesus.html

About the Magi, from the book “The Revelation of the Magi,” they were not astrologers but only assumed astrologers. They talked about following a star but no one else could see the star but them, therefore people assumed they were astrologers. That was on page 10 of the book.

We aren't told how old Jesus was when the Magi visited Him. the only clue in the Bible is that Herod thought He would be less than two. Even newborns were killed apparently by his instructions in attempt to kill Christ.

January 2, 2011 at 5:06 am#231009

Participant

Quote (david @ Jan. 01 2011,00:42)

Quote

We don't know the exact date, you are correct, but to not celebrate it because there are others that are/were celebrated on that date seems to be a 'religious' and 'legalistic' reason to me.

The earliest Christians did know the date. And yet, they didn't celebrate it. It was not celebrated for a few hundred years.

I think the ones who were taught by Christ directly, the ones who lived before the foretold apostasy knew what they were doing.

David,
So what if the earliest Christians did not celebrate birthdays. It has become a custom. Some celebrate their birthdays and to some it is just another day. I believe we have the freedom to establish customs and the freedom to not adhere to established customs. To many, Christmas is a custom they enjoy and has become special to them. I think that those who don't celebrate shouldn't be condemning those who do. Christ came in the flesh and so we have a day to give extra honor to the story of the conception, birth and special visitors.

January 2, 2011 at 5:18 am#231010