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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2008,12:21) Quote (TimothyVI @ June 06 2008,08:37) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 06 2008,02:18) I stand by my statements on conditions in the country and the numbers I alluded too…check more than one source people…either way you look at it…America has raped, murdered, displaced, plundered, more people than any nation on earth… The fact that we debate whether the loss of life was 15 million or 60 million should SPEAK VOLUMES.. the problem is non-minorities can not Identify with the struggles in this nation because they never had to go thru them….not to say that life is not or can't be hard for non-minorities in america…but that the chances afforded them give them an astronomically better possibility of eliviating there struggle…
If you think there is not a serious problem with race relations, equality, and policy in this country you are either blind…or really don't care to take notice….
If you really want a reality check..find and read these books:
Without Sanctuary: Lynching Photography in America by James Allen
Slavery by Another Name: The Re-Enslavement of Black Americans from the Civil War to World War II by Douglas A. Blackmon
Up from Slavery by Booker T. Washington
The Souls of Black Folk by W.E.B. Du bois
The problem is people…take snapshots of their life and think that that is representative if life in general…I've got news for you…there is another side to America that you never see or read about fro example:
– According to the US Census Bureau, 35.9 million people live below the poverty line in America, including 12.9 million children.
-black student college graduation rate remains at a dismally low 43 percent
-70 percent of the prison population are Minority while they only make us 30 percent of the population (I would love to hear an explanation for this)
-Almost 1/3rd of African Americans males under 30 are in some way in the criminal justice system
-Hurricane Katrina for Gods sake
-Minorities get sentenced to Jail/Prison 3 1/2 times more often than their caucasian counterparts who commited similar or the same crime ..simply put… minority=jail caucasian=probation
Simply put..I am a African American male living in the south…you have no idea…Now i beat the odds..there was an almost 70 percent chance that I would be one the statstics mentioned…but I beat the odds…But just because I beat the odds (so far) does not mean that I ignore what is a preposterous situation in this country…
Oh I almost forgot this little tidbit…80 percent of the Black males I graduated with are currently or have been thru some form of the probation/ parole system…
Yeah..I grew up in a “low income high crime” neighborhood…so I guess maybe I am a little more connected the real realities of this country than most on here…maybe not…but like i said…
You will stop hearing Minorities like myself talk about socioeconomic realities in this country..when the realities improve…remember just because you hear someone mention race…does not mean that they are saying the problems are intrinsically race related…non-minorities tend to hear “race” and say, “Oh not this again”…but what happens is they miss the real root of these problems…
Anyway…open your eyes…maybe read a couple of the books I listed…especially the first one about lynching…it will make you look at the world in a different light..I promise..
I don't even know where you come up with some of this garbage. Your first statement alone is ludicrous.
Joshua and his army raped, murdered, displaced, and plundered more people than the United States could have ever thought about so that statement doesn't even really deserve a reply.Colin Powell, Chairman, joint chiefs of staff, secretary of state,
Born in Harlem in 1937.Barack Obama, Senator from Ill. Nominee for president of the United States.
Benjamin Baneker, United States senator.
Rube Foser, mayor of Cleveland IN.
Hiram Revels, American astronaut.
Mary Mcleod Bethune, advisor to president.
This is just a few of the great American minorities who have made a difference.
I am certain that with your knowledge of African American history
you could add hundreds of names to that list.The difference between each of these distinguished minorities and the ones that
fit the miserable statistics that you quoted in your earlier post, is that they decided to take advantage of what this country offered them and excel, not sit around and bitterly whine about how poorly the United states treated their great grandparents. Every race on earth has enslaved another group of peoples at some time in their history. That doesn’t make it right, but it is time to get over it and move forward.I don't suppose you ever considered that minorities are in jail because they commited crimes, do not minorities except any responsibility for their own fate? Do you feel like they should be given a degree if they are failing college.
You said that you beat the odds. Perhaps you should be showing some of the 80% of your fellow graduates, how you did it.
Mistakes were made in the United States, and are still being made here and to a greater
extent in other countries.I am really sorry for the tirade. This forum is not the place for this I am sure.
Up until now I had been enjoying the intelligent manner in which you put forth your ideas concerning scriptures. I am afraid that now you have lost some credibility in my mind, and it has nothing to do with your race.Tim
TimI agree with you.
When I first read his post about blacks and minorities I wanted to reply but felt it was useless.
I think his own bigotry shines through. The reason there are still racial problems in our country is that nothing is never enough for them.
An example of this kind of reverse racism is we have what call “BET” on our satalite.
Maybe the JWs do not watch television I dont know but BET means “Black Intertainment Television”. If you watch it then you will see 99% of those on it are black and many are preaching against “White America”. Amazing the hypocrosy, for if you or I were to start a television station called “WET”
“White Entertainment Television” we would be crucified for racial bigotry and sued and thrown in jail.
Anyway they keep the racial fires going by constantly holloring race when they don't get their way.
You are right 99% of those that go to prison broke the law.
What a joke to call this racial persecution and slavery.
There is a such thing as WET..its called regular network television…only 15 percent of the Faces seen on regular network TV are minority…First of all..I don't expect anyone here to really understand the point of my post…my post was not meant to be a finger pointing contest…but simply to shed light on the state of the affairs in our country…
The numbers I quoted are accurate…like i
said research…The conditions are described exist…I know..I grew up in them…you all (some of you) just proved exactly what I said..
Remember I said when most non-minorities here “race” they say “Oh not this again” and tune out…the response on my posts prove just that…
If you look deeper…I am NOT saying the root causes of the conditions described are intrinsically race related..rather I am saying they are SOCIOECONOMIC…
AKA class and money…
But yet again…just as I predicted you focused on race…I mention race because it is a window into a much deeper problem in this country…
Simple Fact…where socioeconomic standards increase..crime decreases and achievment increases…
SO THAT IS THE REAL PROBLEM
Oh and TimothyVI…all though I'm sorry you feel my “credibility” is an issue with you…I challenge you to do some real research…and refute my statistics…not just a quick google search…
I mean no harm brother…but I am sick an tired of the socioeconomic policy in this country…and the racism…
People act like America is some great place to be…and it is for some….But the fact of the matter is that a huge group of people are fighting an uphill battle…without the resources to make the climb….
Your ignorant statements “that you are tired of people whining about what somebody did their great-grandmother”
Show that you have no idea of the conditions in this country….
Racism has a new face its..Corprorate America…Its called probation and parole…its called glass ceilings…
Slavery has moved from the plantations to the Corporate Offices and prisons…
There is Big glass ceiling that Minority groups…yes i'm talking about women too..of all colors for that matter…can not break thru in corporate america…Yes just like you I can point to a Few scattered faces here and their …But the question is does that accurately represent the big picture?
Look closer and you will see that it does not..Like I said before..open the nearest forbes magazines…or any magazine dedicated to money and success…and count the number of minority faces you see…actually open any mainsteam magazine or advertisement and pay attention to who is represented
Like I said…just because your life is not as I described…does not mean that everyones life is like yours…
Again I stand by my statements whole heartedly…and I stand by my numbers…
Do some real research into this before you call me a bigot..
My numbers are real….the conditions I described are real…
When conditions improve we will shut up….
Quote (seekingtruth @ June 06 2008,13:26) I quoted numbers from the encyclopedia, what source did your radically different numbers come from?
These are just a few of the ones I have handy..My local library
census bureau
nces.ed.gov
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_baeo.htm (very good read)
http://www.bizjournals.com/austin….1592499 (recent story)
http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/book_grad_rates (nice study that actually REFUTES some of my claims)
http://www.3pts.org/images/Student-athlete_Stats.doc (older but still relevant article)
Something else to consider while I am thinking:
According to most accounts, America is in the midst of a housing crisis. Homeowners are losing their property at record rates, and poor and low-income citizens are struggling to find affordable housing. Competition for rental housing has increased. So too has the number of alleged housing discrimination complaints. Unfortunately, federal action on those complaints has gone down.
The Department of Housing and Urban Development and related housing assistance agencies recorded more than 10,000 discrimination complaints in 2006: a 12 percent increase from 2005 and the highest since HUD started keeping track in 1990. Despite the increase, the number of follow ups on such complaints has reduced significantly. Only 31 discrimination charges were filed or marked for legal action by the agency in 2007 and just 36 in 2006. In 10 years, the number of charges filed by the agency has dropped more than 60 percent.
Discrimination can be based on age, gender, race, religion or disability, and complaints can come in a variety of forms. In recent years, more and more Latino immigrants have made their way to the U.S. and attempted to set up homes. Unfortunately, many landlords — and entire communities — refused to welcome them and turned down their applications for housing, regardless of suitability. Single mothers have alleged that landlords refused to rent to them because they had young or adolescent children. African-Americans continue to find it difficult to rent or buy in certain communities, with landlords refusing their applications and real estate agents showing them a limited selection of properties.
Many of these complaints are hard to prove and are eventually dismissed. Such a drastic drop in charges filed, especially given the increase in complaints logged, should raise a few red flags. One has to wonder if the current administration is simply not concerned with the housing rights of the average person.
Housing is interconnected with so many other facets of life. Where a family lives may determine where their children go to school or how accessible employment opportunities are to the parents. Discriminatory housing practices could very well limit that family’s ability to prosper. The Housing and Justice Departments must relentlessly pursue those individuals and corporations that engage in discriminatory housing practices. With more Americans expected to search for rental housing in the coming months as foreclosure rates continue to rise, now is not the time for governmental back stepping in the pursuit of justice.
Hey everyone who responded…
I apologize if I offended..this is just a hot button topic for me…
I offer my prayers and thanks for you all even taking the time to respond to something you so whole heartedly disagree with…
Back to the scriptures I go…and I stay…as Nick said…this is not the place for such dialogue..
Again…bear with your brother…and if I offended..heap some firey coals on my head..
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 06 2008,08:37) Joshua and his army raped, murdered, displaced, and plundered more people than the United States could have ever thought about so that statement doesn't even really deserve a reply.
It's been a while since i've studied the book of Joshua, and I could be wrong about this, but I don't recall any mention of Joshua or his army “raping” anyone.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 06 2008,19:40) Quote (TimothyVI @ June 06 2008,08:37) Joshua and his army raped, murdered, displaced, and plundered more people than the United States could have ever thought about so that statement doesn't even really deserve a reply.
It's been a while since i've studied the book of Joshua, and I could be wrong about this, but I don't recall any mention of Joshua or his army “raping” anyone.
Sorry Is.1:18, you are correct.
It was Moses, not Joshua.Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. Numbers 3:18
Why do you suppose they kept the virgins for themselves?
And God told Moses and by proxy anybody else that followed Moses to:When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Now I know your response will be that they married the virgins, the spoils of war, so technically it was not rape.
But I doubt that a young virgin is going to enjoy being with the murderer of her parents and family.How about this one?
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)
Sure sounds like rape to me.
If there is another thread to discuss this in, please direct me to it.
TimBecause some of the discussions here did not belong in this thread, I started another thread here.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y107390Don't go there if you are not at all interested in my response to dirtyk. It is your right to not view it.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 07 2008,03:27) Because some of the discussions here did not belong in this thread, I started another thread here.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y107390Don't go there if you are not at all interested in my response to dirtyk. It is your right to not view it.
Tim
I sure wish I would have read this post first before I went “there”.
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 07 2008,00:14) Sorry Is.1:18, you are correct.
It was Moses, not Joshua.
No need to apologise to me, it wasn't my words you misrepresented. It was the sciptures you misrepresented, and in a very pernicious way. Direct your apology to the Lord.Quote Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. Numbers 3:18 Why do you suppose they kept the virgins for themselves?
This has nothing to do with rape.Quote And God told Moses and by proxy anybody else that followed Moses to: When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Now I know your response will be that they married the virgins, the spoils of war, so technically it was not rape.
But I doubt that a young virgin is going to enjoy being with the murderer of her parents and family.
Nothing to do with rape.Quote How about this one? They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)
Sure sounds like rape to me.
Possibly, possibly not. But the point is ITS NOT MOSES or ANY REPRESENTATIVE OF ISRAEL IN VIEW HERE. The text is speaking about the war spoils of the oriental conquerors OF ISRAEL. And this should in no way be seen as an absolution of these activities. YHWH does not condone everything the Bible reports.Blessings
IsQuote (Is 1:18 @ June 07 2008,11:23) Quote Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. Numbers 3:18 Why do you suppose they kept the virgins for themselves?
This has nothing to do with rape.Quote And God told Moses and by proxy anybody else that followed Moses to: When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Now I know your response will be that they married the virgins, the spoils of war, so technically it was not rape.
But I doubt that a young virgin is going to enjoy being with the murderer of her parents and family.
Nothing to do with rape.
O.K. Is.1:18,
Your definition of rape differs from mine.
But if I were to kill my neighbor and his wife and take
their young virgin daughter for myself to “enjoy”,
you be sure to tell the authorities that it had nothing to do with rape.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 07 2008,11:56) Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. Numbers 3:18 Why do you suppose they kept the virgins for themselves
YHWH's plan was evidently to discontinue the Midianite line, yes. Virgin girls were spared because they neither carried the Midianite “line” (biblically speaking this was done by the males) nor were they likely carrying children who would (being virgins). They would also not likely be a corrupting influence at their young ages. Please note: sex slavery is not implied in the text. This assumption has been imported into it.Quote LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Absolutely no sexual relations (let alone rape!!) between the captor and captives is implied here either.When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it–An important principle is here introduced into the war law of Israel regarding the people they fought against and the cities they besieged. With “the cities of those people which God doth give thee” in Canaan, it was to be a war of utter extermination (Deuteronomy 20:17-18). But when on a just occasion, they went against other nations, they were first to make a proclamation of peace, which if allowed by a surrender, the people would become dependent [Deuteronomy 20:11], and in the relation of tributaries the conquered nations would receive the highest blessings from alliance with the chosen people; they would be brought to the knowledge of Israel's God and of Israel's worship, as well as a participation of Israel's privileges. But if the besieged city refused to capitulate and be taken, a universal massacre was to be made of the males while the women and children were to be preserved and kindly treated (Deuteronomy 20:13-14). By this means a provision was made for a friendly and useful connection being established between the captors and the captives; and Israel, even through her conquests, would prove a blessing to the nations.
http://bibletools.org/index.c….JFBDon't let your misconceptions govern the way you interpret scripture Tim, let scripture speak for itself.
Blessings
Hi Is 1:18,
I am still not able to see it quite like you do, it seems a little naive to me.
But thank you sincerely for pointing out your understanding in such a kind way.
I will contemplate the way I interpret scriptures.Tim
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 08 2008,00:25) Hi Is 1:18, I am still not able to see it quite like you do, it seems a little naive to me.
It's more naïve to read preconceptions into the text, I think.Quote But thank you sincerely for pointing out your understanding in such a kind way.
I will contemplate the way I interpret scriptures.
Hmmmm “kind way”, Sarcasm? Probably. Tim, I make no apologies for my grouchy attitude toward you over this. It offended me the way you attempted to impugn the scriptures so blatantly. What were you trying to achieve? – to show that they could be used to vindicate rape?, to show that YHWH condones it? You see the hard line muslims do this all the time with their anti-Bible apologetics, why are you joining them? I don't get that.Is 1:18.
Good grief! There was no sarcasm in my reply.
I thought that you earnestly gave me your opinion in a civil manner and I appreciated it.
Guess I was wrong.
Good Grief!
Good by.
TimDear Brothers! I really hate to see such angry outburst between so called Christians, that is what you call yourself, right? So if that is what you both think that you are, you need to apologise to each other and get back with God. Because right now God has turned His face from you, you two do realize that you have sinned, I hope. See the Sermon on the mount and see what Jesus teaches us about anger. I love you both and that is why I am making you aware of this.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (TimothyVI @ June 09 2008,06:08) Is 1:18.
Good grief! There was no sarcasm in my reply.
I thought that you earnestly gave me your opinion in a civil manner and I appreciated it.
Guess I was wrong.
Good Grief!
Good by.
Tim
Hey Tim, you're right I did take that comment to be sarcastic. While I don't think I went over the top, my words did carry a sentiment of reproval, and deliberately so. Maybe I need to work on my rebukes! I guess I'm just sick and tired of the attacks on the Bible from the inside. The secular world and the world of Islam are already fully committed to discrediting the Bible and christianity. They don't need any help from us! Anyway for what it's worth I apologise of misreading your comment and for being less gracious than you in getting my point across.
Blessings
IsQuote (seek and you will find @ June 09 2008,06:41) Dear Brothers! I really hate to see such angry outburst between so called Christians, that is what you call yourself, right? So if that is what you both think that you are, you need to apologise to each other and get back with God. Because right now God has turned His face from you, you two do realize that you have sinned, I hope. See the Sermon on the mount and see what Jesus teaches us about anger. I love you both and that is why I am making you aware of this.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Nothing inherently wrong with anger (Ephesians 4:26 — “Be angry but do not sin.”). Yeshua was portrayed as angry in the NT, remember the moneychangers in the temple episode?It's good to show that type of emotion when it's called for. Some things are worth being angry for.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 09 2008,19:37) Quote (seek and you will find @ June 09 2008,06:41) Dear Brothers! I really hate to see such angry outburst between so called Christians, that is what you call yourself, right? So if that is what you both think that you are, you need to apologise to each other and get back with God. Because right now God has turned His face from you, you two do realize that you have sinned, I hope. See the Sermon on the mount and see what Jesus teaches us about anger. I love you both and that is why I am making you aware of this.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Nothing inherently wrong with anger (Ephesians 4:26 — “Be angry but do not sin.”). Yeshua was portrayed as angry in the NT, remember the moneychangers in the temple episode?It's good to show that type of emotion when it's called for. Some things are worth being angry for.
Jesus had righteous anger, is that what you can say about you?
Mrs.
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