Voting

[dirtyknections]

But the question is…Are these God's wars..as they were in the OT..or a they Man's? Nowhere in the bible do we find A war initiated by Man that God supported…We do find instances however of men initiating war and being condemned for it by God…

Is the IRAQ war GOD's War?

Was vietnam GOD's War?

Was Korea GOD's War?

Was the war between the Tutsi and the Hutu in Africa GOD's war?

Was WWI and WWII Gods War?

The only warfare in the OT that God participated in was war against those people who were DIRECTLY OPPOSING HIM?

The only wars mentioned in the bible that are said to be GOD INIATED and APPROVED are those faught against people or things that are in DIRECT OPPOSITION of HIM..

So i guess what I am saying is if the war does not meet those guidelines then what takes place in that war is Unbiblical, murderous, and against GOD…

All SIN is against GOD…end of story

[seekingtruth]

DK,
God always works for the greater good, I do not believe God ever wants war, but deeds of man bring them to pass. So do you believe that it was a sin to participate in the war against the nazi's?

Wm

[dirtyknections]

Hey…seek

Honestly yeah…because it was a case of simply “the lesser of two evils”

Remember..I am an African-American male living in the south. I had the priveledge of growing up with my Great-grandmother on my father's side who was a slave in cuba before she moved to Tampa, FL in the 1920's. Her mother was a slave in Largo Africa. My mothers Great-Grandmother was A half native american half white slave who's father was a slave owner…Her mother was his “unwilling mistress”

I live in a country that has traded “colonialistic slavery” for the new slavery called “probation and parole”…I live in a country that still considers Minorities and women second class citizens. If you doubt that…then look in the nearest Forbes magazine and pay attention to the faces that you see in the pages…

I live in a country that where minorities make us less than 30 percent of the population but more than 70 percent of the prison population…root cause=socioeconomic policy…aka…the modern day Jim Crow laws

Let me give you some nuggets of truth:

-Rosewood

-Tuskegee Experiment

-Mississippi Burning (still for that matter)

-Selma, Alabama

-Jim Crow

-Seperate but equal

-Civil rights movement

-Lynchings (still taking place—see James Byrd, Sean Bell, Amadou Diallo..and on and on and on)

-Probation/ Parole

-Native Americans (see… trail of tears for a small drop in the bucket)

So don't tell me about the Nazi's….America has slaughtered, enslaved, entrapped, plundered, and misplaced more people than any country on earth…Nazi's are like boyscouts compared to our history..

[dirtyknections]

Sorry Seek…got a little emotional

[seekingtruth]

Dk,
If your looking for me to justify these wrongs I'm not going to do it (I wouldn't want to), but, as to being worse then the nazi's I believe you need to study history more. America has done both great evils and great good. You do not have to be “African-American” to have suffered in this country or any other country. I do believe God can work through these trials to our benefit but it is our responsibility to help those suffering when it is in our power to do so.

In my opinion – Wm

[dirtyknections]

Hey…seek…

honestly…History is a Fav Subject of mine…

Unless you are a Minority you can never know what it is to exist as one…TRUST ME..on that one

Here is a tidbit…

More Native Americans died in the colonization of America than all the World Wars…that includes the holocaust…

More African Americans died in the slave trade than in All the World Wars..that includes the Holocaust..

So like I said…Nazi's are boyscouts compared to Americans

Do you honestly think Minorities would still be talking about injustice in the Countr if it did not exist?

Trust me..when it stops..we will stop talking about it

[seekingtruth]

From the encyclopedia

Slaves
No one knows the exact number of slaves that were taken from Africa. Philip Curtin in 1969 calculated that about 10 million slaves were taken from Africa.

Other researchers found that 2 out of 10 slaves died before they arrived to the South or North America.

Native American
how many people were living in the Americas when Columbus arrived in 1492. Estimates range from 2 million to 18 million for the aboriginal population north of present-day Mexico. These figures are hypothetical; exact population figures are impossible to ascertain. Furthermore, the date of Columbus’s arrival was not necessarily the peak of the Native American population.

While precise figures are difficult to determine, some historians estimate that up to 80% of some Native populations died due to European diseases after first contact.

World Wars
The number of World War I casualties was over 40 million
The total estimated human loss of life caused by World War II was roughly 72 million people,

My Math
My math shows that only 8 million slaves were brought to america and if 80% of 18 million Native-Americans died of disease that leaves only 3.6 million which could have been killed. Total possible deaths could not have exceeded 11.6 million. Over 100 million died in the world wars. This does not align with the numbers your spouting.

Unfortunately numbers are thrown around quite often which only inflame various issues and as Christians we should always be sure of our facts.

I've enjoyed many of your posts and hope we can move back to discussing faith, hope and love.

Your brother – Wm

[seekingtruth]

Quote

Do you honestly think Minorities would still be talking about injustice in the Countr if it did not exist? Trust me..when it stops..we will stop talking about it

I believe there are those who keep it alive, if I get a ticket because I was speeding, I was “unlucky” enough to get caught. But I've heard minorities claim it's “racial” (not that some aren't). I don't want to go into details but I'm going through a very tough time right now and it's so unfair it's unbelievable. But life is not fair it will do me no good to dwell on it and complain how “unfair” it is I just have to move on and leave it to God (I believe that God will balance the books so to speak) I pray for those who despitfully use me and I receive a freedom from this load.

I apologize I'm not very good at trying to explain myself but it is the best I can do.

Wm

[seek and you will find]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 05 2008,16:02)

Hey…seek… honestly…History is a Fav Subject of mine… Unless you are a Minority you can never know what it is to exist as one…TRUST ME..on that one Here is a tidbit… More Native Americans died in the colonization of America than all the World Wars…that includes the holocaust… More African Americans died in the slave trade than in All the World Wars..that includes the Holocaust.. So like I said…Nazi's are boyscouts compared to Americans Do you honestly think Minorities would still be talking about injustice in the Countr if it did not exist? Trust me..when it stops..we will stop talking about it

I know what it means to be a second grade Citizen of the United States of America. Since we are German we were called Nazi's. My Neighbor told me that I was stupid, because I did not know English as well as She did.
But that was in the 70th's. Today we have neighbors that are black American and we get along just great. I als believe what class you are. The middle class does get along pretty good. It is the poor that seem to suffer still. That I find so wrong, being that this Country is to be the richest in the world.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[Cato]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 05 2008,16:02)

Hey…seek… honestly…History is a Fav Subject of mine… Unless you are a Minority you can never know what it is to exist as one…TRUST ME..on that one Here is a tidbit… More Native Americans died in the colonization of America than all the World Wars…that includes the holocaust… More African Americans died in the slave trade than in All the World Wars..that includes the Holocaust.. So like I said…Nazi's are boyscouts compared to Americans Do you honestly think Minorities would still be talking about injustice in the Countr if it did not exist? Trust me..when it stops..we will stop talking about it

Unless you are an Asian, you are a minority on this earth.

What happened to Native Americans was a shame, a shame repeated the world over whenever a more technologically advanced people moved into the areas of more primitive peoples.  This was true throughout history and is by no means unique to the Americas.  

In terms of absolute numbers, the lowest possible (and only barely possible at that) death toll we can put on the trans-Atlantic slave trade is 6 million. If we assume the absolute worst, a death toll as high as 60 million is at the very edge of possibility; however, the likeliest number of deaths would fall somewhere from 15 to 20 million.

The total estimated human loss of life caused by World War II was roughly 72 million people.

Not all minorities talk about injustice in the U.S., and not only minorities are subject to same, it is but one factor in a complicated mosaic of class, race, education, economic resources, geography, religion, and appearance.

I am sorry that your personal situation has been negative vis a vis race in what I assume is the USA considering your anti-american statements, but don't try and extrapolate to minorities in general and the U.S.A. in particular.

[dirtyknections]

I stand by my statements on conditions in the country and the numbers I alluded too…check more than one source people…either way you look at it…America has raped, murdered, displaced, plundered, more people than any nation on earth…

The fact that we debate whether the loss of life was 15 million or 60 million should SPEAK VOLUMES.. the problem is non-minorities can not Identify with the struggles in this nation because they never had to go thru them….not to say that life is not or can't be hard for non-minorities in america…but that the chances afforded them give them an astronomically better possibility of eliviating there struggle…

If you think there is not a serious problem with race relations, equality, and policy in this country you are either blind…or really don't care to take notice….

If you really want a reality check..find and read these books:

Without Sanctuary: Lynching Photography in America by James Allen

Slavery by Another Name: The Re-Enslavement of Black Americans from the Civil War to World War II by Douglas A. Blackmon

Up from Slavery by Booker T. Washington

The Souls of Black Folk by W.E.B. Du bois

The problem is people…take snapshots of their life and think that that is representative if life in general…I've got news for you…there is another side to America that you never see or read about fro example:

– According to the US Census Bureau, 35.9 million people live below the poverty line in America, including 12.9 million children.

-black student college graduation rate remains at a dismally low 43 percent

-70 percent of the prison population are Minority while they only make us 30 percent of the population (I would love to hear an explanation for this)

-Almost 1/3rd of African Americans males under 30 are in some way in the criminal justice system

-Hurricane Katrina for Gods sake

-Minorities get sentenced to Jail/Prison 3 1/2 times more often than their caucasian counterparts who commited similar or the same crime ..simply put… minority=jail caucasian=probation

Simply put..I am a African American male living in the south…you have no idea…Now i beat the odds..there was an almost 70 percent chance that I would be one the statstics mentioned…but I beat the odds…But just because I beat the odds (so far) does not mean that I ignore what is a preposterous situation in this country…

Oh I almost forgot this little tidbit…80 percent of the Black males I graduated with are currently or have been thru some form of the probation/ parole system…

Yeah..I grew up in a “low income high crime” neighborhood…so I guess maybe I am a little more connected the real realities of this country than most on here…maybe not…but like i said…

You will stop hearing Minorities like myself talk about socioeconomic realities in this country..when the realities improve…remember just because you hear someone mention race…does not mean that they are saying the problems are intrinsically race related…non-minorities tend to hear “race” and say, “Oh not this again”…but what happens is they miss the real root of these problems…

Anyway…open your eyes…maybe read a couple of the books I listed…especially the first one about lynching…it will make you look at the world in a different light..I promise..

[TimothyVI]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 06 2008,02:18)

I stand by my statements on conditions in the country and the numbers I alluded too…check more than one source people…either way you look at it…America has raped, murdered, displaced, plundered, more people than any nation on earth… The fact that we debate whether the loss of life was 15 million or 60 million should SPEAK VOLUMES.. the problem is non-minorities can not Identify with the struggles in this nation because they never had to go thru them….not to say that life is not or can't be hard for non-minorities in america…but that the chances afforded them give them an astronomically better possibility of eliviating there struggle… If you think there is not a serious problem with race relations, equality, and policy in this country you are either blind…or really don't care to take notice…. If you really want a reality check..find and read these books: Without Sanctuary: Lynching Photography in America by James Allen Slavery by Another Name: The Re-Enslavement of Black Americans from the Civil War to World War II by Douglas A. Blackmon Up from Slavery by Booker T. Washington The Souls of Black Folk by W.E.B. Du bois The problem is people…take snapshots of their life and think that that is representative if life in general…I've got news for you…there is another side to America that you never see or read about fro example: – According to the US Census Bureau, 35.9 million people live below the poverty line in America, including 12.9 million children. -black student college graduation rate remains at a dismally low 43 percent -70 percent of the prison population are Minority while they only make us 30 percent of the population (I would love to hear an explanation for this) -Almost 1/3rd of African Americans males under 30 are in some way in the criminal justice system -Hurricane Katrina for Gods sake -Minorities get sentenced to Jail/Prison 3 1/2 times more often than their caucasian counterparts who commited similar or the same crime ..simply put… minority=jail    caucasian=probation Simply put..I am a African American male living in the south…you have no idea…Now i beat the odds..there was an almost 70 percent chance that I would be one the statstics mentioned…but I beat the odds…But just because I beat the odds (so far) does not mean that I ignore what is a preposterous situation in this country… Oh I almost forgot this little tidbit…80 percent of the Black males I graduated with are currently or have been thru some form of the probation/ parole system… Yeah..I grew up in a “low income high crime” neighborhood…so I guess maybe I am a little more connected the real realities of this country than most on here…maybe not…but like i said… You will stop hearing Minorities like myself talk about socioeconomic realities in this country..when the realities improve…remember just because you hear someone mention race…does not mean that they are saying the problems are intrinsically race related…non-minorities tend to hear “race” and say, “Oh not this again”…but what happens is they miss the real root of these problems… Anyway…open your eyes…maybe read a couple of the books I listed…especially the first one about lynching…it will make you look at the world in a different light..I promise..

I don't even know where you come up with some of this garbage. Your first statement alone is ludicrous.
Joshua and his army raped, murdered, displaced, and plundered more people than the United States could have ever thought about so that statement doesn't even really deserve a reply.

Colin Powell, Chairman, joint chiefs of staff, secretary of state,
Born in Harlem in 1937.

Barack Obama, Senator from Ill. Nominee for president of the United States.

Benjamin Baneker, United States senator.

Rube Foser, mayor of Cleveland IN.

Hiram Revels, American astronaut.

Mary Mcleod Bethune, advisor to president.

This is just a few of the great American minorities who have made a difference.
I am certain that with your knowledge of African American history
you could add hundreds of names to that list.

The difference between each of these distinguished minorities and the ones that
fit the miserable statistics that you quoted in your earlier post, is that they decided to take advantage of what this country offered them and excel, not sit around and bitterly whine about how poorly the United states treated their great grandparents. Every race on earth has enslaved another group of peoples at some time in their history. That doesn’t make it right, but it is time to get over it and move forward.

I don't suppose you ever considered that minorities are in jail because they commited crimes, do not minorities except any responsibility for their own fate? Do you feel like they should be given a degree if they are failing college.

You said that you beat the odds. Perhaps you should be showing some of the 80% of your fellow graduates, how you did it.

Mistakes were made in the United States, and are still being made here and to a greater
extent in other countries.

I am really sorry for the tirade. This forum is not the place for this I am sure.
Up until now I had been enjoying the intelligent manner in which you put forth your ideas concerning scriptures. I am afraid that now you have lost some credibility in my mind, and it has nothing to do with your race.

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi guys,
We are OVER the vain US.
People live in other countries

[Cato]

The dirtyknections anti-american diatribe seems to imply that the US is a hopelessly racist country bent on global iniquity.

Yet if the US is so anti-minority explain how Asian-American immigrants who are minorities by both race and ethnicity with often varying language difficulties have high education rates roughly equal to whites, low incarceration rates, and are also doing as well as whites economically?  So perhaps, it is not necessarily being a minority that results in inequality.

If anyone ever cared to take a stroll through the Appalachian region of the US they would find a lot of economically depressed and underserved white people who are as poor as any inner city ghetto.

No, if you are not of a certain race you can not completely understand another's position, note I said completely, but I can not know completely another sex or nationality or any inherent trait so let's not overplay this “You don't understand”, for everyone can use the same argument to promote their own brand of victimhood.

Friends of mine who spent years in communist re-education camps where they were beaten daily, starved and left shaking with malaria who later risked everything for a rickity boat trips to the Philppines and then the US would laugh at the notion of the US being the most evil nation on earth, they think its paradise.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2008,08:40)

Hi guys, We are OVER the vain US. People live in other countries

Hi Nick,
“people live in other countries.”
that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Of course people live in other countries.
dirtyk wasn't talking about other countries was he?

Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim4,
I would not like to see this forum degenerate into a partisan debate about USA politics.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2008,11:41)

Hi Tim4, I would not like to see this forum degenerate into a partisan debate about USA politics.

Agreed. Sorry Nick.

Tim

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 06 2008,08:37)

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 06 2008,02:18) I stand by my statements on conditions in the country and the numbers I alluded too…check more than one source people…either way you look at it…America has raped, murdered, displaced, plundered, more people than any nation on earth… The fact that we debate whether the loss of life was 15 million or 60 million should SPEAK VOLUMES.. the problem is non-minorities can not Identify with the struggles in this nation because they never had to go thru them….not to say that life is not or can't be hard for non-minorities in america…but that the chances afforded them give them an astronomically better possibility of eliviating there struggle… If you think there is not a serious problem with race relations, equality, and policy in this country you are either blind…or really don't care to take notice…. If you really want a reality check..find and read these books: Without Sanctuary: Lynching Photography in America by James Allen Slavery by Another Name: The Re-Enslavement of Black Americans from the Civil War to World War II by Douglas A. Blackmon Up from Slavery by Booker T. Washington The Souls of Black Folk by W.E.B. Du bois The problem is people…take snapshots of their life and think that that is representative if life in general…I've got news for you…there is another side to America that you never see or read about fro example: – According to the US Census Bureau, 35.9 million people live below the poverty line in America, including 12.9 million children. -black student college graduation rate remains at a dismally low 43 percent -70 percent of the prison population are Minority while they only make us 30 percent of the population (I would love to hear an explanation for this) -Almost 1/3rd of African Americans males under 30 are in some way in the criminal justice system -Hurricane Katrina for Gods sake -Minorities get sentenced to Jail/Prison 3 1/2 times more often than their caucasian counterparts who commited similar or the same crime ..simply put… minority=jail    caucasian=probation Simply put..I am a African American male living in the south…you have no idea…Now i beat the odds..there was an almost 70 percent chance that I would be one the statstics mentioned…but I beat the odds…But just because I beat the odds (so far) does not mean that I ignore what is a preposterous situation in this country… Oh I almost forgot this little tidbit…80 percent of the Black males I graduated with are currently or have been thru some form of the probation/ parole system… Yeah..I grew up in a “low income high crime” neighborhood…so I guess maybe I am a little more connected the real realities of this country than most on here…maybe not…but like i said… You will stop hearing Minorities like myself talk about socioeconomic realities in this country..when the realities improve…remember just because you hear someone mention race…does not mean that they are saying the problems are intrinsically race related…non-minorities tend to hear “race” and say, “Oh not this again”…but what happens is they miss the real root of these problems… Anyway…open your eyes…maybe read a couple of the books I listed…especially the first one about lynching…it will make you look at the world in a different light..I promise.. I don't even know where you come up with some of this garbage. Your first statement alone is ludicrous. Joshua and his army raped, murdered, displaced, and plundered more people than the United States could have ever thought about so that statement doesn't even really deserve a reply. Colin Powell, Chairman, joint chiefs of staff, secretary of state, Born in Harlem in 1937. Barack Obama, Senator from Ill. Nominee for president of the United States. Benjamin Baneker, United States senator. Rube Foser, mayor of Cleveland IN. Hiram Revels, American astronaut. Mary Mcleod Bethune, advisor to president. This is just a few of the great American minorities who have made a difference. I am certain that with your knowledge of African American history you could add hundreds of names to that list. The difference between each of these distinguished minorities and the ones that fit the miserable statistics that you quoted in your earlier post, is that they decided to take advantage of what this country offered them and excel, not sit around and  bitterly whine about how poorly the United states treated  their great grandparents. Every race on earth has enslaved another group of peoples at some time in their history. That doesn’t make it right, but it is time to get over it and move forward. I don't suppose you ever considered that minorities are in jail because they commited crimes, do not minorities except any  responsibility for their own fate? Do you feel like they should be given a degree if they are failing college. You said that you beat the odds. Perhaps you should be showing some of the 80% of your fellow graduates, how you did it. Mistakes were made in the United States, and are still being made here and to a greater extent in other countries. I am really sorry for the tirade. This forum is not the place for this I am sure. Up until now I had been enjoying the intelligent manner in which you put forth your ideas concerning scriptures. I am afraid that now you have lost some credibility in my mind, and it has nothing to do with your race. Tim

Tim

I agree with you.

When I first read his post about blacks and minorities I wanted to reply but felt it was useless.

I think his own bigotry shines through. The reason there are still racial problems in our country is that nothing is never enough for them.

An example of this kind of reverse racism is we have what call  “BET” on our satalite.

Maybe the JWs do not watch television I dont know but BET means “Black Intertainment Television”. If you watch it then you will see 99% of those on it are black and many are preaching against “White America”. Amazing the hypocrosy, for if you or I were to start a television station called “WET”

“White Entertainment Television” we would be crucified for racial bigotry and sued and thrown in jail.

Anyway they keep the racial fires going by constantly holloring race when they don't get their way.

You are right 99% of those that go to prison broke the law.

What a joke to call this racial persecution and slavery.

[942767]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 03 2008,14:48)

Hmmmn…ok…so what about supporting war?

Hi Dk:

As Christians we do not fight evil with the sword but with the Word of God, but God uses governments as law enforcement to fight against evils.

Quote

Rom 13:1 ¶ Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

As Christians we are to pray for those in authority.

War then may sometimes be necessary.

God Bless

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Cato @ June 06 2008,10:36)

The dirtyknections anti-american diatribe seems to imply that the US is a hopelessly racist country bent on global iniquity. Yet if the US is so anti-minority explain how Asian-American immigrants who are minorities by both race and ethnicity with often varying language difficulties have high education rates roughly equal to whites, low incarceration rates, and are also doing as well as whites economically?  So perhaps, it is not necessarily being a minority that results in inequality. If anyone ever cared to take a stroll through the Appalachian region of the US they would find a lot of economically depressed and underserved white people who are as poor as any inner city ghetto. No, if you are not of a certain race you can not completely understand another's position, note I said completely, but I can not know completely another sex or nationality or any inherent trait so let's not overplay this “You don't understand”, for everyone can use the same argument to promote their own brand of victimhood. Friends of mine who spent years in communist re-education camps where they were beaten daily, starved and left shaking with malaria who later risked everything for a rickity boat trips to the Philppines and then the US would laugh at the notion of the US being the most evil nation on earth, they think its paradise.

Cato

Excellent.

I think it is anti-American also. No other country in the world has as much freedom and opportunity than America.

I live in a predominantly black City I am not a racist, for I have many black friends who do not feel like they are persecuted because of their color but in fact in many ways in my state NC the blacks have all the good jobs. My son has had two black girl friends and they were very nice. I have no problem with that. My wife works at Bank of America and makes 50,000 dollars a year and 90% of the employees she works with are black. But I am truly sick of the whining that goes like this…

“because I am black I dont have a chance or I cant get ahead because as Reverend White, Obamas Ex Pastor says its the rich white Americans that is the problem”.

Blessings!

[Author]

Posts