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Quote (gollamudi @ May 22 2009,13:14) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2009,18:29) gollamudi wrote: Quote But my question was if at all Jesus had to be like us human beings in all respects why at all this drama of virgin birth ?
You are making a faulty assumption since all human beings are not conceived the same way. In fact there is one documented human being who was half the result of a “virgin birth” and half from normal conception as they are a chimera. I could not find an account of it though I did find this study that concludes it is possible.
Then you have identical twins that are the result of mitosis instead of the normal meiosis.
In other words though meiosis is the main form human reproduction takes other forms also occur as God so wills.
Hi brother Kerwin,
Thanks for your reply. I have gone through that page you have posted. It talks about non-human Parthenosis(virginal birth). Even science on cloning says that a female can produce another female but not male. But my question was not on God's inability to perform such miracles I was insisting on the necessity of such special birth for our Messiah who was prophesied as human born without any special significance except the misunderstood prophecy of Isa 7:14( which I don't agree to be taken as virgin birth).Thanks and peace to you
Adam
I understand your point but I am applying your same question to different case. Why does God find it necessary to have different types of conception in the human population?The beginnings of parthenogenesis can be started in humans and probably does start naturally but due to a limit God placed on it, the resulting child perishes early in life. So technically virgin conceptions do happen but the child always dies before developing far. In Jesus case an additional mutation in one sex chromosome would have also been necessary and that mutation or another may have allowed his development to proceed without the usual results.
Marty,
We have a choice but because we have a corrupt spirit that is in rebellion to God we will choose to rebel against God. That is why the old man must die so that the new man can live.
Romans 6:6-7(KJV) reads:
Quote Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Since this teaching of Jesus’ is true then Jesus himself must have been born again of water and spirit. Since Jesus did not sin that rebirth must have happened before he had a chance to sin. Jesus also makes it clear that every man must be born again which means every man needs a new spirit which seems to clearly imply the old one is flawed.
John 3:3-5(KJV) reads:
Quote Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Your teaching implies that there is no need to be reborn in Spirit. That is not what God teaches.
Hi Kerwin:
Our spirit is corrupt because we became sinners when we yielded to temptation, and no, I do not teach that there is no need to be born again. It is because of sin that we are dead or spiritually separated from God.
Jesus did not have a corrupted spirit, but he bore in his body the sins of all of humanity. He was born again when he died unto sin, and was raised again from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God.
When we come to God with a repentant heart through him, we also die unto sin and are raised from the dead (spiritual separation from God) by the Holy Spirit of God. When one is baptized in water, it is symboic of our union with Jesus in his death, burial, and resurrection. But my understanding is that being born of water, does not mean water baptism but means that we have believed the Word of God. Being born again of water means that we have believed in our heart God's testimony regarding what He has done for us through His giving His Only Begotten Son and being born of the Spirit means that we have been raised again from the dead just as Jesus was by the Holy Spirit of God.
Quote 1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Quote Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Quote Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.Love in Christ,
Marty942767(Marty) wrote:
Quote Our spirit is corrupt because we became sinners when we yielded to temptation,
I believe the result of Adam’s sin is that the spirit of humankind became corrupt and that is why scripture states:
Romans 12:5(NIV) reads:
Quote Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
My evidence is based on the answer to the question “how did sin enter this world through Adam and Eve?” My answer is they sinned thus corrupting the spirit of man.
What evidence to you have to support your conclusion?
942767(Marty) wrote:
Quote It is because of sin that we are dead or spiritually separated from God.
I agree with that statement but what does that have to do with when the spirit of man became corrupt. The question here is whether we inherit our spirit from our ancestors or whether God breaths a new spirit into each of us when we are formed in our mother’s womb. The science of biology suggests that the earlier is the case because life is a circle and life is a result of the spirit. I am not sure what scripture states about the case except for.
Ecclesiastics 7:29(NIV) reads:
Quote This only have I found:
God made mankind upright,
but men have gone in search of many schemes.”942767(Marty) wrote:
Quote Jesus did not have a corrupted spirit, but he bore in his body the sins of all of humanity.
I assume you believe that Jesus is an exception to the rule he taught that you must be reborn in spirit and water to enter the kingdom of heaven. He is certainly an exception to the scripture which states “all men have sinned” so I can see where you might be correct.
My argument is that Jesus had two spirits. His own which was corrupt and which he denied just as he instructs his students to do and The Holy Spirit which he chose to live by and so did not sin. Just the fact that Jesus was tempted by evil shows that Jesus had evil desires but we know unlike us he did not give into them.
James 1:14(NIV) reads::
Quote but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
Remember Jesus also denied being “good” which sounds like he admits having a corrupt spirit but could merely mean he was aware he has desires that are in rebellion against God even though he never allowed them to conceive sin. So this brings for the question is the flesh(sinful nature) the same thing as the corrupt seed (corrupt spirit) that Peter mentions in 1 Peter 1:23?
942767(Marty) wrote:
Quote When one is baptized in water, it is symbolic of our union with Jesus in his death, burial, and resurrection.
I certainly have not read that in scripture and what I read leads me to view it more as a miracle by which we receive the New Spirit. I am convinced Paul did use symbolic language to teach the church in Rome that they received the Holy Spirit at baptism but that is not the same as what you just stated.
942767(Marty) wrote:
Quote But my understanding is that being born of water, does not mean water baptism but means that we have believed the Word of God.
I do not believe Jesus was speaking of water baptism at that time but that later he did instruct his disciples to baptize all those that believe in Jesus and so obey his teachings in water and he also instructed them to teach those students to do the same thing. He did not say the why though Paul covered that in his letter to the Romans.
Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2009,07:07) My argument is that Jesus had two spirits. His own which was corrupt and which he denied just as he instructs his students to do and The Holy Spirit which he chose to live by and so did not sin. Just the fact that Jesus was tempted by evil shows that Jesus had evil desires but we know unlike us he did not give into them.
Hi brother Kerwin,
If whatever you quoted above is correct I don't think virgin birth was necessary for our Lord. Please think over.Peace to you
AdamKerwin said:
Quote My argument is that Jesus had two spirits. His own which was corrupt and which he denied just as he instructs his students to do and The Holy Spirit which he chose to live by and so did not sin. Just the fact that Jesus was tempted by evil shows that Jesus had evil desires but we know unlike us he did not give into them. Blasphemy! Jesus had no corruption or evil desires in any part of His person. He was the lamb “without blemish and without spot”. The angel said to Mary that a “HOLY thing” would be born of her. And Hebrews 7 says that Jesus was “separate from sinners”.
Kerwin,
You should consider taking a sabbatical from this board for a while. I have observed that the nonsense posted here by many is corrupting you. Earlier on your Christology was a little more sound, IMO.thinker
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Blasphemy! Jesus had no corruption or evil desires in any part of His person. He was the lamb “without blemish and without spot”.
Rather it is blasphemy to call Jesus God since scripture clearly states that God cannot be tempted by evil while it also states Jesus was tempted even we are but without sin. Of course in being tempted even as we are Jesus must have been tempted by evil and scripture states that when one is tempted by evil it is their own evil desire that drags him away and entices him.
So you have a conundrum in that you must either deny that Jesus was tempted like we are, claim that God can be tempted by evil under certain circumstances, or accept that Jesus is not God. It seems you chosen the first even though it is not consistent with scripture. That is your choice and like everyone else you will be held accountable for that choice.
Jesus chose not to sin which is why he is the lamb “without blemish and without spot”.
Quote (gollamudi @ May 25 2009,12:36) Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2009,07:07) My argument is that Jesus had two spirits. His own which was corrupt and which he denied just as he instructs his students to do and The Holy Spirit which he chose to live by and so did not sin. Just the fact that Jesus was tempted by evil shows that Jesus had evil desires but we know unlike us he did not give into them.
Hi brother Kerwin,
If whatever you quoted above is correct I don't think virgin birth was necessary for our Lord. Please think over.Peace to you
Adam
Does it care what we believe is necessary or is is more reliant on what God believes is necessary?Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2009,07:31) The Thinker wrote: Quote Blasphemy! Jesus had no corruption or evil desires in any part of His person. He was the lamb “without blemish and without spot”.
Rather it is blasphemy to call Jesus God since scripture clearly states that God cannot be tempted by evil while it also states Jesus was tempted even we are but without sin. Of course in being tempted even as we are Jesus must have been tempted by evil and scripture states that when one is tempted by evil it is their own evil desire that drags him away and entices him.
So you have a conundrum in that you must either deny that Jesus was tempted like we are, claim that God can be tempted by evil under certain circumstances, or accept that Jesus is not God. It seems you chosen the first even though it is not consistent with scripture. That is your choice and like everyone else you will be held accountable for that choice.
Jesus chose not to sin which is why he is the lamb “without blemish and without spot”.
Kerwin,
Make up your mind. First you said that Jesus had “evil desires”. Now you say that He was without sin. How could He have been without sin if He had evil desires? You make no sense. I repeat my recommendation that you to take a sabbatical for a while, IMO.thinker
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Make up your mind. First you said that Jesus had “evil desires”. Now you say that He was without sin. How could He have been without sin if He had evil desires? You make no sense. I repeat my recommendation that you to take a sabbatical for a while, IMO.
Your statements reveals a difference in our understanding. Why do you believe having evil desires is a sin? It is gratifying (fulfilling) those desires(lusts) that is the sin not having them.
Galatians 5:16(KJV) reads:
Quote This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Jesus is an example to us in that he despite having the lusts of the flesh did not fulfill them but rather walked by the Spirit at all times. What he did for himself he can do for each of us if we believe.
Quote (kerwin @ May 26 2009,07:31) The Thinker wrote: Quote Blasphemy! Jesus had no corruption or evil desires in any part of His person. He was the lamb “without blemish and without spot”.
Rather it is blasphemy to call Jesus God since scripture clearly states that God cannot be tempted by evil while it also states Jesus was tempted even we are but without sin. Of course in being tempted even as we are Jesus must have been tempted by evil and scripture states that when one is tempted by evil it is their own evil desire that drags him away and entices him.
So you have a conundrum in that you must either deny that Jesus was tempted like we are, claim that God can be tempted by evil under certain circumstances, or accept that Jesus is not God. It seems you chosen the first even though it is not consistent with scripture. That is your choice and like everyone else you will be held accountable for that choice.
Jesus chose not to sin which is why he is the lamb “without blemish and without spot”.
Amen to that post brother Kerwin. Jesus was made human in all respects even with sinful flesh which was reason for his being tempted by evil. But God protected him because of his willful surrender to God his Father.Thanks and peace to you
AdamTim Kraft said:
Quote Amen to that post brother Kerwin. Jesus was made human in all respects even with sinful flesh which was reason for his being tempted by evil. But God protected him because of his willful surrender to God his Father. Blasphemy! Jesus took on the same flesh as Adam had before the fall. The Bible no where says that Christ was made like sinners. You guys just want a savior in your own image. The angel said to Mary that the child that would be born of her was a “HOLY thing”. Kerwin needs a rest.
thinker
Kerwin said:
Quote Your statements reveals a difference in our understanding. Why do you believe having evil desires is a sin? It is gratifying (fulfilling) those desires(lusts) that is the sin not having them. Kerwin,
Evil desires are in themselves sin. The law of Moses said “you shall not desire”. Jesus said that if a man even desires a woman he has already committed adultery with her in his heart.Kerwin said:
Quote Jesus is an example to us in that he despite having the lusts of the flesh did not fulfill them but rather walked by the Spirit at all times. Horse radish! Paul said that lust in itself is sin,
Quote Sin produced in me all manner of evil desire. (Rom. 7:8) You have it backwards. You say evil desire is not sin unless we act on it. But Paul said that sin causes evil desire. Did you get that Kerwin? Sin CAUSES evil desire. Therefore, if Jesus had evil desire then He had sin. No degree in rocket science is needed to understand this. Your theology gives you license to desire evil so long as you don't act on it.
thinker
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Evil desires are in themselves sin.
It appears you are getting confused by word use. Evil desires are not the sin but rather entertaining those desires is the sin and that is why Paul taught us not to “fulfil the lust of the flesh”; the key word being “fulfill”. As I said word use seem to be the problem since the same word is used though in a different context such as saying you are “tempted by lust” and “you lust” but temptation itself is not the sin rather giving into that lust, even if it is only in your mind, is the sin.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote But Paul said that sin causes evil desire.
I have no idea what you are speaking of. Could you tell me where he teaches that so I can read it in context? I pointed our Galatians 5:16-21 and it certainly does not say that “sin causes evil desires” but rather instructs believers how not to give into the lusts of the flesh and therefore it instructs us how not to do the works of the flesh which are sin.
942767(Marty),
This is an interesting conversation about whether we inherited a corrupt spirit or our spirit became corrupted when we first sinned. I can some scriptures that would support either hypothesis but I am inclined to believe that inherited it correct since it would explain why all human beings have sinned with the exception of Jesus. Still at this point I am not sure I could conclude either hypothesis is true according to what I know. You seem sure of yourself but your confidence does not appear to be based on scripture of which you have pointed out very few and those few have not really supported your position. I believe it is best to end the current argument and let God work on us in other ways since we appear to have come to a dead end. May God bless us both by revealing his truth to both of us!
Kewrin said:
Quote I have no idea what you are speaking of. Could you tell me where he teaches that so I can read it in context? Kerwin,
I gave you the verse in my last post. It is Romans 7:8. Paul said that sin produces evil desire. Therefore, sin comes BEFORE the evil desire. So if Jesus had evil desires then He was not sinless.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 28 2009,00:54) Kewrin said: Quote I have no idea what you are speaking of. Could you tell me where he teaches that so I can read it in context? Kerwin,
I gave you the verse in my last post. It is Romans 7:8. Paul said that sin produces evil desire. Therefore, sin comes BEFORE the evil desire. So if Jesus had evil desires then He was not sinless.thinker
You are interpreting one scripture to contradict others. You should look at Romans 7:5 which tells you what Paul was speaking of when he said sin as he is using sin in place of “flesh”.Romans 7:5(KJV) reads:
Quote For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:5(NIV) reads:
Quote For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
Kerwin said:
Quote You are interpreting one scripture to contradict others. You should look at Romans 7:5 which tells you what Paul was speaking of when he said sin as he is using sin in place of “flesh”. Kerwin,
Your conclusion is unfounded. Paul said that when we were IN THE FLESH the sinful desires were aroused by the law. Paul did not use sin in place of the flesh. The flesh was merely the INSTRUMENT for sin to operate.Quote So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin (vs. 25) Paul maintained the distinction between sin and the flesh. It was with the flesh that he served sin. And in verse 8 he says that sin produced evil desire. SIN PRODUCES EVIL DESIRES. Therefore, my point still stands that if Jesus had evil desires then He was a sinner. This is the chief problem with unitarian presuppositions. Their theology makes Jesus a sinner like the rest of us. But Hebrews 7 explicitly says that Jesus was SEPARATE from sinners. And the angel told Mary that she would give birth to a “HOLY thing”.
Jesus never had an evil desire because He did not have a corrupted human nature. His nature was that of Adam's before the fall. He was made true humanity but NOT corrupt humanity. And your view that Jesus had evil desires but did not act on them gives you license to have evil desires so long as you don't act on them.
thinker.
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