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Quote (Not3in1 @ June 03 2007,10:32) This thread started because Martian wanted to share what a waste of time this board really is. May I suggest if you want to continue meaningful debates that you move to a thread where others can find you more easily. As it stands now, this thread has one title of, “Waste of time.” It would be a shame for others not to be able to locate the specific teaching you guys are discussing.
The problem with moving it is that you would lose all the traps that Tim has gotten himself into. That is important. The primary argument is between Tim and myself. I do not have time or inclination to try to deal with more then tim at this time.I doubt I would respond to anyone else but tiim for now. I might read some others if you would like to post.
You may feel free to make a post to steer others to this thread if you think it is important.
94,
I believe I said that there are no Scriptures that mention the free will of Jesus while He was a man on earth, meaning that of course He went by His own will prior to becoming man, which was the same will as the Father and the Spirit, the one perfect will of God.
I know that Jesus was made like His brethren in all things, but surely this does not mean that Jesus had a sin nature, like everyone else does. Acts 3:14 says that Jesus is the Holy and Righteous One. Does it say this in consequence of the fact that Jesus consistently chose not to sin, or does it say it in consequence of the fact that it is His nature as a man and a bondservant to perfectly obey the Father? I'll go with the latter.
Hebrews 1:2 -God made the ages through (dia) the Son. And this suggests that the Son did not make the ages? Even though eight verses later it specifically says of the Son, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth.” This whole through/dia thing is nonsense. All things are through God. Romans 11:36. All things are through Jesus. 1 Corinthians 8:6. Jesus is God.
Tim
Martian,
I admit that Hebrews 4:15, “One Who has been tempted in all things as without sin,” is difficult to understand, and my explanation might not be the best one. But I am going to base my understanding of Jesus on everything the Bible says about Him. So if the Bible says He laid the foundation of the earth, I know for certain that He is not a mere man. If the Bible says He partook of flesh (Hebrews 2:14), I know for certain that He existed as Something other than a man before He partook of flesh. I've gone into excruciating detail with you trying to understand the holy mystery of how Jesus was tempted as without sin, but you refuse to answer basic questions about how, if He is a mere man, He laid the foundation of the earth. Please, please, just tell me how it is possible that a mere man laid the foundation of the earth.
Regarding this functionality idea you propose, I really have no idea what it means, so could you please explain it again? Why is it necessary under functionality to ignore the fact that Jesus laid the foundation of the earth? Isn't the creation of heaven and earth pretty important?
Regarding the temptation/sin issue, all we know for sure is what the Bible tells us, which is that Jesus was tempted, and He did not sin. Why did He not sin? Was it because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? I'm not sure He was filled with the Holy Spirit prior to His baptism by John. So what was it about the Second Adam that kept Him from repeating the sin of the first Adam? The Last Adam is a life-giving spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45. I don't believe any other men are called life-giving spirits so, there you go, another difference between Jesus and humanity. How do you explain that? And it's not as though Jesus became a life-giving spirit upon His resurrection, for He already was the Giver of Life prior to the cross in John 5:21. So I would say that there was something intrinsically different in Jesus that caused Him not to sin, and for this reason I believe He was called the Holy and Righteous One, as in Acts 3:14.
And again, regarding free will, we do see free will in Christ's work of salvation before He became a man, in Philippians 2:6-8. And the reason He had this free will was that He was equal with God, but did not assert it but humbled Himself by becoming obedient. Now I believe it makes perfect sense that if Jesus is God, as Philippians says, once He resolved to become obedient to the Father as a man, it would be impossible for Him break His own purpose in coming to earth, and hence it would be impossible for Him to sin. If this is not so, then why do you believe He was without sin?
Tim
Hi Tim2,
You say
'I believe I said that there are no Scriptures that mention the free will of Jesus while He was a man on earth, meaning that of course He went by His own will prior to becoming man, which was the same will as the Father and the Spirit, the one perfect will of God.'That is odd. He mentions his own will and the struggle he had with it in the Garden of Gethsemene
Hi Tim2, You say:
Quote I believe I said that there are no Scriptures that mention the free will of Jesus while He was a man on earth, meaning that of course He went by His own will prior to becoming man, which was the same will as the Father and the Spirit, the one perfect will of God. Relative to the free will, I have already given you a scripture that Jesus like us in every way, and so do you have a free will? I don't believe that we are born with a sin nature, but that nature we developed as we yielded to temptation and sinned. When we sinned, that sin became part of our nature. The difference is that we (all of humanity) yielded to temptation whereas Jesus did not.
Also, I do not believe that Jesus existed prior to born of the Virgin Mary, but I believe that he was foreordained as per
1 Peter 1:20 which states:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,You say, that he existed prior to being born of the Virgin Mary can you give me scripture to support this and also in what form he existed. I'd like to know why you believe this.
Quote Hebrews 1:2 -God made the ages through (dia) the Son. And this suggests that the Son did not make the ages? Even though eight verses later it specifically says of the Son, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth.” This whole through/dia thing is nonsense. All things are through God. Romans 11:36. All things are through Jesus. 1 Corinthians 8:6. Jesus is God. Relative to creation I believe that we should look at all relative to the creation story instead of taking one scripture which says Jesus created every thing and make it fit into all that is said relative to this matter. Genesis says that God created all things, and Hebrews 1:2 agrees with this, and so we have to understand in what sense Jesus laid the foundations of the earth as Hebrews 1:10 indicates.
You make a statement that Jesus is God apparently based on 1 Co. 8:6, but let's paste it below and see what it says:
1 Co.8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.This says that there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER. Sorry TIM the scripture does not say that Jesus is God.
God Bless
Tim,
I started to explain in detail why the conclusions in your post were irrational and would not work, then I decided I needed to pick up the dog dodo outside. A much more pleasurable and profitable task then dealing with your conclusions.There is no significance to your scriptures if the end conclusions you draw from them goes against the motives and intentions of God.
God’s intentions are to raise up sons and daughters with His character. For this purpose Jesus was born. The exact representation of what it means to have the character of God in a human being. He is the example for the rest of humanity. In order to make comparison between Jesus and humanity they must have essentially the same starting point. They must be of the same make up and nature. Any deviation from complete humanity would make this comparison/example invalid.
This causes two major problems.
1.It contradicts clear scripture and the overall plan of God for humanity.
2.It makes God an unfair judge because he must now judge mankind on the basis of a creature that is not human or had an unfair advantage by being dual natured.This is why I do not deal with your interpretations of scripture. No matter what you think the scripture means, if your conclusions go against the motives or intentions of God your process/interpretations have a fault in them. I do not have to prove what the fault is, I only have to examine your conclusions.
Your conclusions must line up with the motives and intentions of God are they are false.
Amen, to much of what you say Martian (except for the doggie doo-doo part)
I also agree that Jesus must be human, however; he is also God's literal Son. Which for me, means that he is a little *more* than just “mere” humanity. He is the firstfruits of those of us to follow. I believe the Philippians passage that everyone loves to quote so often has to do with Jesus laying down his *privileges* as the Son of God and becoming all that we are as humans.
Quote (martian @ June 04 2007,01:59) Tim,
I started to explain in detail why the conclusions in your post were irrational and would not work, then I decided I needed to pick up the dog dodo outside. A much more pleasurable and profitable task then dealing with your conclusions.There is no significance to your scriptures if the end conclusions you draw from them goes against the motives and intentions of God.
God’s intentions are to raise up sons and daughters with His character. For this purpose Jesus was born. The exact representation of what it means to have the character of God in a human being. He is the example for the rest of humanity. In order to make comparison between Jesus and humanity they must have essentially the same starting point. They must be of the same make up and nature. Any deviation from complete humanity would make this comparison/example invalid.
This causes two major problems.
1.It contradicts clear scripture and the overall plan of God for humanity.
2.It makes God an unfair judge because he must now judge mankind on the basis of a creature that is not human or had an unfair advantage by being dual natured.This is why I do not deal with your interpretations of scripture. No matter what you think the scripture means, if your conclusions go against the motives or intentions of God your process/interpretations have a fault in them. I do not have to prove what the fault is, I only have to examine your conclusions.
Your conclusions must line up with the motives and intentions of God are they are false.
Hi M42,
Your post gives offense.
The character of God in Christ is by the Spirit of God in him not the learned nature of Christ himself. That same Spirit can be poured into us giving us also transforming us to be like Him too. We follow.My frustrations martian
Weariness of talking to a force of Law within Men
The mission of Christ is to bring the children of Abraham to inherit the promise of the Inheritance.
BY destroying one cockroach a whole Nation to come is destroyed
The seed of Abraham, is Isaac
But also the seed of Abraham is in Sarah’s Hand maiden, the children cast out into the desert, that became Fatherless, but also are to gain Inheritance in the end of.
Many Nations came from Sarah’s Hand Maiden
They also made themselves Images of God in the desert, as the twelve tribes did.
They suffered, and God Made every Man suffer,Just ASA Man with two Family’s, it causes torment between the children, much Heart aches for the children that are deprived of his daily attention, are at risk of been forgotten, and absence, has prevailed to even to remember them.
The Bible is a recorded of History events, the past down hurts of these family’s
An old battle kept alive.
Laws can be Brocken, like that of the day the black people were free from slavery
But the Mind of Man is a Law of its own, each one can say, you may be free by Law, But I in my mind I will continue to treat you as a slave, and they shall continue to defend their rights of freedom in their minds.The bible is made up of history books, the pain of this on going Battle
And Christ came to end the battle, that some are still carrying on with out understanding?Hi Charity,
You find enemies among the friends in this battle.
Service not judgement is your portion..You have no Idea how difficult it is to talk to a very hurt generation of People Nick
After they have been condemned as fuel for the fire, if they don’t do what these Christians tell them to doThese people are pushed into corner, and have taken on delusions that the history of the bible is all fiction,
They have fought hard to tell me I am deluded to believe it?
And I said..What is it then? That whole Age was dedicated to as BC, before Christ?
Surly this Man Jesus has lived and impacted the world?…This is the understanding I offered them?
PAUL, explains that he was following the Law, raised in the manner of the “perfect Law” allowing Killing (Heresies oaths past by Nehemiah, Since when did Moses Laws allow for mutilating lives),
Paul destroyed and took Many Lives, cursed to believing he was doing Good,
So I would Say, he WOULD OF thought he, was going to Heaven?
Don't be Mistaken, Don’t be Mislead, the next Christian that comes along is probably doing the same THING?
today…With power only to Condemned as fuel for the fire first up,PAUL Jumps from Law to the grace pardoned
Act 22:1 ¶ Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence [which I make] now unto you. Act 22:2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
Act 22:3 I am verily a man [which am] a Jew, born in Tarsus, [a city] in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, [and] taught according to the perfect manner of the law of
the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. Act 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.And for as Much loyalty as Paul Had for what He had been taught and believed, he also used in the same force in the change of direction he chose
It seems, that The God of Israel, is full of Mercy,
He knows the Intentions of the heart,
And looks therein, not our failing actions?
For what the heart has not yet, understood grace abounds,
Then is it then still called a hearing when a deaf Man goes to court? Think Not…Hi Charity,
You say
“These people are pushed into corner, and have taken on delusions that the history of the bible is all fiction,”
But you pick and choose scripture too rejecting the Spirit that wrote it through men.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2007,10:51) Hi Charity,
You say
“These people are pushed into corner, and have taken on delusions that the history of the bible is all fiction,”
But you pick and choose scripture too rejecting the Spirit that wrote it through men.
Nick, As much as you want to accuse me, I do not wish to disannull anybodies inheritance of God,
And least of ALL I DONOT wishes to be subscribed to an internal war of vain beliefs,
Looking to now separate the Inheritance up between themselves,
according to their own Ideas of the Nature and functions of God?
Many Gods Have been created from One God?
Most of which Removing the Kingdom hence off the earth,
About those on earth then let it become a wilderness the goodness of the Land eaten and devoured, taking up their part to for fill prophecy
But another Part is, that God did not, intend the Land to become desolate and destroyed, some may take part in for filling this prophecy, Building wastes and reins of Many generations that did not understand this is it heaven on earth, A new city of paradise..1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.Hi charity,
Does a rainbow show every colour in every ray? Neither do those in Christ, enlivened by God's Spirit, show all of the character of God-in fact they cannot as only Christ had the fullness and all are shapers of the light too by the nature of their vessel. James is firm, Peter compassionate, John insightful, Philip pragmatic, Paul determined etc.
So too the OT vessels vary according to the light given but all are human vessel examples and none to be scorned while other men elevated. Learn from all who God gave us.
The Pharisees sat in the chair of Moses and Jesus respected their position. Paul was among them and they worshipped the letter of the Law while spitting out the essence. They loved the power to punish while misconstruing the important details of righteousness to the degree that they even killed the Christ. They proudly displayed their knowledge and their vanities but did not ever repent and even hid their sin as hypocrites. They thought they had salvation in their own hands where a little humility would have drawn the essential help of God.Quote (martian @ June 04 2007,01:59) Tim,
I started to explain in detail why the conclusions in your post were irrational and would not work, then I decided I needed to pick up the dog dodo outside. A much more pleasurable and profitable task then dealing with your conclusions.There is no significance to your scriptures if the end conclusions you draw from them goes against the motives and intentions of God.
God’s intentions are to raise up sons and daughters with His character. For this purpose Jesus was born. The exact representation of what it means to have the character of God in a human being. He is the example for the rest of humanity. In order to make comparison between Jesus and humanity they must have essentially the same starting point. They must be of the same make up and nature. Any deviation from complete humanity would make this comparison/example invalid.
This causes two major problems.
1.It contradicts clear scripture and the overall plan of God for humanity.
2.It makes God an unfair judge because he must now judge mankind on the basis of a creature that is not human or had an unfair advantage by being dual natured.This is why I do not deal with your interpretations of scripture. No matter what you think the scripture means, if your conclusions go against the motives or intentions of God your process/interpretations have a fault in them. I do not have to prove what the fault is, I only have to examine your conclusions.
Your conclusions must line up with the motives and intentions of God are they are false.
Is it just me, or can anyone else see how circular this reasoning is??Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 04 2007,17:24) Quote (martian @ June 04 2007,01:59) Tim,
I started to explain in detail why the conclusions in your post were irrational and would not work, then I decided I needed to pick up the dog dodo outside. A much more pleasurable and profitable task then dealing with your conclusions.There is no significance to your scriptures if the end conclusions you draw from them goes against the motives and intentions of God.
God’s intentions are to raise up sons and daughters with His character. For this purpose Jesus was born. The exact representation of what it means to have the character of God in a human being. He is the example for the rest of humanity. In order to make comparison between Jesus and humanity they must have essentially the same starting point. They must be of the same make up and nature. Any deviation from complete humanity would make this comparison/example invalid.
This causes two major problems.
1.It contradicts clear scripture and the overall plan of God for humanity.
2.It makes God an unfair judge because he must now judge mankind on the basis of a creature that is not human or had an unfair advantage by being dual natured.This is why I do not deal with your interpretations of scripture. No matter what you think the scripture means, if your conclusions go against the motives or intentions of God your process/interpretations have a fault in them. I do not have to prove what the fault is, I only have to examine your conclusions.
Your conclusions must line up with the motives and intentions of God are they are false.
Is it just me, or can anyone else see how circular this reasoning is??
Is 1:18I agree. The constant critisism and disdain and patronizing shows no fruit of the Holy Spirit.
And it sure dosnt prove his doctrine as “functional”.
94,
Quote Do you have free will? I don't know. Paul mentions free will in Philemon 14, but I don't know where else it is mentioned in the Bible, much less emphasized, particularly concerning the slaves of God. So I don't think it should be the foundation of our doctrine.
Quote I don't believe that we are born with a sin nature, but that nature we developed as we yielded to temptation and sinned. Well this is more or less what Pelagius said, and the church has said since Augustine that we are born with a sin nature. I think Romans 5:12 is pretty clear that sin entered everyone through Adam. This is a whole new debate, but you can see it's relevance concerning Jesus.
Quote The difference is that we (all of humanity) yielded to temptation whereas Jesus did not. I tried to ask in my previous post why it was that Jesus did not yield to temptation. Is it because He is the Holy and Righteous One? If He is the Holy and Righteous One, how could He possibly have sinned?
Quote 1 Peter 1:20 which states:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,Well, you think this means that His existence was foreordained; I would say it refers to His coming to earth. The word manifest tends to mean that the person manifested already exists. Peter certainly believed in Christ's pre-existence, for 9 verses earlier he says that the Spirit of Christ was speaking to the prophets.
Quote You say, that he existed prior to being born of the Virgin Mary can you give me scripture to support this and also in what form he existed. I'd like to know why you believe this. Well I'll start with John 1:1. I think you believe the Logos refers to the plan of God rather than His word, right? Well I'd say it simply means His Word, living and active, the Word the Father has always had and has always been with Him, the Word which created heaven and earth in Genesis 1, the Word to which Israel was called to obedience, and of course the Word was God. And Jesus existed in the form of God according to Philippians 2:6. And Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I AM.” He also said that He is the first and the last, Alpha and Omega. And Paul says He is before all things. And then there is the fact that you admit that God created heaven and earth dia Jesus, so He certainly existed before heaven and earth.
Quote Relative to creation I believe that we should look at all relative to the creation story instead of taking one scripture which says Jesus created every thing and make it fit into all that is said relative to this matter. Genesis says that God created all things, and Hebrews 1:2 agrees with this, and so we have to understand in what sense Jesus laid the foundations of the earth as Hebrews 1:10 indicates. Well of course if you refuse to believe that Jesus is God, you're not going to believe that Jesus created heaven and earth. But if you're willing to consider that Jesus is God, then the Bible's declaration that He created heaven and earth makes a lot of sense. Paul says that all things are through Jesus, that all things were made dia Him and for Him (Colossians 1:16); and John agrees. We know that all things are dia God from Romans 11:36, so if you're willing to consider that Jesus is God, this again makes a lot of sense. So the sense in which Jesus is Creator is that all things are through (dia) Him, which I would say means that He is the one Who did the complete task of creating heaven and earth, just as Genesis 1 ascribes this to the Word of God. And it means that Jesus is not the one from Whom heaven and earth were created, but that the Father is the source, as 1 Corinthians 8:6 says, all things are from the Father and through Jesus. (Of course, they weren't made from the substance of the Father, but were made out of nothing.) I don't think this means that either person was more or less responsible for creation, but it acknowledges the Father to be the Source and His consubstantial Word to be the Agent (this is based on my understanding of Athanasius).
Quote But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. I agree that there is one God the Father. The Bible says that all things are through (dia)God. Romans 11:36. So if all things are through Jesus, then Jesus is that same God. It is impossible that there are two beings through whom are all things.
Quote This says that there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER. Sorry TIM the scripture does not say that Jesus is God. Technically, there are no commas in the Greek. But from a monotheistic standpoint, it makes no sense to say, “There is one God, the Father, but everything is through this other person who isn't God.” And the Bible says that Jesus is God. John 1:1, 20:28, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8, 1 John 5:20.
Tim
Hi Tim2
You say
“It is impossible that there are two beings through whom are all things.”
Scripture does not say that .
Read again.
'Quote
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. “And, using greek logic you say.
“Well of course if you refuse to believe that Jesus is God, you're not going to believe that Jesus created heaven and earth.”
Being God has nothing to do with what he does, since all his being and his abilities come from the one true God, the Father.Hi Tim2,
You speak of Christ as the Holy one and he is
” Is it because He is the Holy and Righteous One? If He is the Holy and Righteous One, how could He possibly have sinned?”Luke 4:34
Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God
Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 3:14
But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;However like us it is because he has been sanctified.
John 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 17:19
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Acts 20:32
And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.We follow him.
It has been said that my posts to Tim amount to circular reasoning. I am not using circular reasoning and I will explain why. I am not using my conclusions to try to prove my interpretation process correct nor am I using my scriptural interpretations to prove my doctrine correct. Since neither Tim nor I will agree on an interpretation process, I am eliminating that part of the formula. In every case I have encountered of doctrinal/scriptural dispute it has always come down to one or the other is being dishonest with the process of interpretation. For this reason, I will not use scripture other then to point out the (what I hope is agreed upon) motives and intentions of God. In my reading of the gospels, I believe this is the way in which Jesus dealt with those to whom He spoke. Jesus always dealt with man on the basis of lining up their beliefs with the motives and intentions of God
I will start from a base of understanding that we can both agree on and will judge our perspective doctrines on the basis of those agreed upon truths. This eliminates the possibility of misusing scripture by either party and solely relies on agreed upon motives and intentions of God.. God has motives and intentions toward His creation. He has a reason for creating man and intentions for that creation. God has motives that are beyond question. They might be considered character traits.
These base truths are as follows;
1.God’s motive is always love.
2.Because God’s motive is always love He always operates in fairness toward His creation.
3.God’s intention for creating man was to raise up children who would be in the image and likeness of Him.
4.Jesus’ purpose was two fold. To be a blood sacrifice to redeem mankind and to be a perfect and complete example to mankind on how to walk with God.
5.As followers of Christ, we are to become like Him.
6.Everything Christ did was for the purpose of being an example to us.These basic truths are the cornerstone of Christianity and the foundation of believing in the Christian God. These truths are easily proven from a scriptural, relational, experiential, and functional standpoint. To a reasonable person who claims to be a Christian these truths are self evident and need no more proof.
If someone claims to be a Christian and yet disagrees with these foundational truths, then there is no basis for communication on even ground. Then I would approach them in the manner I might approach the unsaved. At the very least, I would assume they know almost nothing about the God they claim to serve.
Agreeing upon these simple truths makes determining the validity of most doctrines, a very simple task. If the conclusion of whatever process a person uses to determine doctrine contradicts or works against the above intentions and motives of God, then that doctrine is wrong. It makes no difference what “scriptural proofs” they throw up or what exegesis they use it is still wrong. If they use their interpretation of scripture to prove their doctrine and their doctrine contradicts or works against the motives and intentions of God then they have a fault in their process and must rethink their process. Simply put this is the test of functionality.
If a doctrine makes it more difficult to use Christ as our perfect and complete example then it is wrong.
If a doctrine questions God’s motive of love or his fairness toward man then it is wrong.If a doctrine in any way contradicts or works against God’s motives and intentions it is simply wrong. Unfortunately many would prefer to live in unreality and make outlandish and irrational statements then to admit that their doctrine fails this most basic test. They will attempt go back to the relative safety of manipulating scripture. This test of functionality denies them that right.
The motives and intentions of God are not judged by man’s interpretation of scripture or the conclusions we draw from those interpretations.
Man’s interpretation of scripture and the conclusions based on those interpretations are judged by the motives and intentions of God.
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