Use of force and self defense…

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  • #10600
    k4c
    Participant

    I think we need to take a better look at understanding use of force.

    I would like to read the context of loving our enemies and understand it in light of Scripture.

    Mat.5:38-48 “You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. “You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    In the context of these verses I see daily personal relationships in how we should be towards one another in our daily contacts. I don't see people being murdered or raped so I think it's imported to grasp what is being said here in light of Scripture as a whole.

    When God's word speaks of loving our enemies I don't believe we are to apply this to an outward enemy but rather we need to understand how it applies to the inward attitude of our own mind that we have towards anothers. The Jews had an inward attitude of hatred and prejustice towards the Samaritans. God does not want us carrying this attitude of bitterness, hatred or prejudice toward others. When we do this they are our enemy inwardly.

    Someone can be my enemy and not even know it. Why? Because it's an attitude of MY heart. God says if we want to be His children we can't have this in our lives.

    God says that if we hate our brother we have murdered already. Hate is an inward thing; it’s an attitude of the heart.

    If someone is called into military or police work, which it is a calling according to Romans 13:1-7. These men and woman are called ministers of God they are to be professional in what they do. To be a professional means they don't or at least shouldn't carry this personal attitudes of hatred, bitterness or prejudice towards any of those they deal with. In this the police officer can do his job with a clear conscience before God and man.

    When the men were about to grab Jesus, Peter cut an ear off one of the men. Jesus responded against Peter's actions not because it was wrong to defend ourselves but rather because it was not according to God's eternal plan that Jesus should go to the cross. These verses are not teaching that Peter or anyone else should never defend himself or anyone else but that Jesus had a mission to fulfill according to Scripture.

    Matthew 26:52-54 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

    Notice the reason for Jesus stopping Peter, “How shall Scripture be fulfilled?” At the time the apostles where called, Jesus knew He had a mission to accomplish for the Father and that His mission would have an end.

    Luke 22:35-37 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

    Jesus had a work to do while on this earth, which was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but this work had an end. During Jesus’ earthly ministry God’s will was to be done at all cost. God miraculously cared for Jesus and His follows during His earthly ministry but once Jesus’ earthly work was done things changed. Notice Jesus’ words in how He tells us that there was a time when His followers did not need a sword, money or even clothing. The reason for this was because the Father's will was being fulfilled in Jesus' life and death. But He tells us this time will end and then you will need a sword, money and clothing. Jesus even goes on to say that if you don’t have money to buy a sword then you need to sell something and buy one.

    Luke 22:35-37 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

    The context of Jesus telling Peter to put his sword away was not to teach us that we can’t defend ourselves or defend others but rather it was about Jesus needing to fulfill His Father’s will according to Scripture. Listen to Jesus’ words just prior to this whole scenario.

    Luk 22:37 For I say to you, that this which is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

    All throughout the OT we find prophecies concerning the sufferings of Jesus and His cross. What Jesus was doing in these verses was fulfilling Scripture in allowing the soldiers to take Him. He was not teaching a doctrine of self-defense being evil. Even when Jesus spoke of turning the other cheek it had nothing to do with not being able to protect life. A slap in the face is a humbling thing not a life-threatening thing.

    Now lets take a good look at the words in the sword scenario found the book of Mathew.

    Mat 26:46-47 Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me. And while he was yet speaking, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staffs, from the chief priests and elders of the people.

    Did you notice that there was a great multitude of men with swords, Jesus was not teaching a doctrine pertaining to people dying because they used weapons to defend themselves. He was stating a reality that if they were to resist these men, who were many and who were armed with many more swords then they had they would not have made it through the battle thus not fulfilling Scripture. Notice just prior to the soldiers taking Jesus, the disciples obtained two swords (Luke 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said to them, It is enough.) Jesus said that the two swords would be enough. Jesus knew that they would not be using them not because it was wrong to defend yourself but that it was written that Jesus needed accomplish the cross so these things must happen. (Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?) This is the context of these verses, not that we can’t defend ourselves.

    Peter’s response to defend Jesus was not according to what was written about Jesus and it would have caused many of Jesus’ disciples to die in the process. It has nothing to do with living to fight another day but rather it had to do with Jesus being able to fulfill Scripture in that He must go to the cross.

    Mat 26:48-52 Now he that betrayed him, gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he; hold him fast. And forthwit
    h he came to Jesus, and said, Hail Master; and kissed him. And Jesus said to him, Friend, Why art thou come? Then they came, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him. And behold, one of them, who were with Jesus, stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus to him, Put up again thy sword into its place: for all they that take the sword, shall perish by the sword.

    Peter just cut an ear off of one on the men who came to take Jesus. If Jesus did not respond to this in rebuking Peter and then healing the man’s ear there would have been a bloody battle involving many swords against two and many deaths would have occurred. This was not according what was to be accomplished in Jesus and not according to the Scriptures. Jesus then repeats Himself a second time as to why must be taken. (Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?)

    Mat 26:53-54 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he will presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

    Jesus made a clear statement here regarding His need to fulfill Scripture. Jesus could have called twelve legions of angels if He wanted to back out of the Father’s will but He didn’t. It has nothing to do with not being able to defend ourselves but rather Jesus fulfilling Scripture. The context is about Jesus fulfilling Scripture.

    Mat 26:55-56 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staffs to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me. But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

    Jesus had a work to do according to the prophets pertaining to His Father’s will. Jesus did not and would not allow anything to interfere with this. The thoughts that these verses carry have nothing to do with defending life as being evil. They don’t teach doctrines of self-defense being wrong. They do teach that Jesus had a work to do which was prophesied years ago by the prophets in which Jesus would be obedient to His Father’s will to suffer the cross for the sins of the world.

    Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written concerning me,) to do thy will, O God.

    Allowing someone to be rape and murdered to fit these verses is not accurate and neither is it according to love and is outside of God's will. These things should and need to be dealt with by the authority that God has set up to do such a work and we who love should do what we can to help those in need. We even see Jesus chasing people out of God's house of prayer with a whip because what the people were doing inside the house of prayer was not according to God's will.

    Even a doctor at times may have to abort a baby’s life to save a mother and one of the twins in her womb. When this happens there's no hate involved in the doctor's motive and neither is the baby an enemy of the doctor.

    We as common people are not to take revenge such as, an eye for and eye, because we are not professionals who are trained not to have mental attitude sins of hatred, bitterness or prejudice towards those we correct or punish for their evil as God's ministers of wrath.

    We are not to repay evil for evil, in other words. If you cut my tire in the middle of the night I shouldn’t go out and cut your tire in the middle of the night. Notice that when evil is done its done under the cover of darkness or hidden. But when God’s righteous wrath is done out of love or calling its done in the light with no need to hide or be shameful before God or man.

    Regarding war, I would be very cautious because of the sinfulness of man's motive for going to war and the fact that many innocent people get killed in war and that is a big problem with God. He wouldn't even destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if there were even one righteous man.

    Proverbs 6:16-17 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood…

    I think one of our problems with understanding God's wrath is that we think it only refers to the end of time judgment of the wicked. God has always used man and angel throughout time to bring about His will. We seem to think that just because a man or woman is carrying out God's will it takes away from God's vengeance and makes it ours. I don't believe this is true.

    God has always called men, women and angel to become vessels used for His good will in day to day living. He even calls us to pay their wages.
    Romans 13:3 For the policeman does not frighten people who are doing right; but those doing evil will always fear him. So if you don't want to be afraid, keep the laws and you will get along well.

    — Living Bible
    Romans 13:4 The policeman is sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for he will have you punished. He is sent by God for that very purpose.

    — Living Bible
    Romans 13:6 Pay your taxes too, for these same two reasons. For government workers need to be paid so that they can keep on doing God's work, serving you.

    One of the problems is that there are times when God's authority is corrupted because of lack of obedience to God's will. We find this all throughout the bible where men in position of authority have been corrupted and have perverted God's will for reasons of personal gain, pride or personal agenda. We also find God dealing harshly with these people. This is why at the end God will eliminate all kingdoms once and for all and establish His everlasting kingdom with Christ over all…Amen to that.

    I totally agree with the command to love our enemies but I think with all these other verses that speak of God's ministers of wrath I think we have to understand that God does use men and woman as well as angels to bring about His will in the age.

    I think we have to study these things to get a clear picture of what God wants and expects of us. I do believe that we should love our enemies for the sake of the gospel but that does not mean that we let people rape or kill our wives and children for their sick and perverted personal gratification.

    The law says, “Thu shall not murder,” I believe that the use of force to protect life is of the higher calling of the law which is love.

    1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the law is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith.

    Remember King David who killed ten thousand but God only judged him with sin for killing the one, Uriah.

    Proverbs 6:16-17 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood…

    Then we have John the Baptist a preacher of repentance being asked by soldiers what they must do. Did John tell them to drop their swords and get out of the Roman Army or perish? No. John tells them how to do the right thing in their profession.

    Luke 3:14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, “And what shall we do?'' So he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.''

    Then we have Jesus speaking to a soldier. Jesus had the opportunity to tell the centurion get out of his profession or burn in hell but instead we hear the first compliment from Jesus of someone having so great a faith in all Israel.

    Matthew 8:8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. “For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, `Go,' and he goes; and to another, `Come,' and he comes; and to my servant, `Do this,' and he does it.' When
    Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

    Here we have Cornelius another solider. Do we hear God telling him to turn away from his evil profession or do we hear God commending Cornelius for his ways?

    Acts 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!'' And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?'' So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

    God has set up an authority in this age ordained by Him of men and woman to be His ministers and servants of His wrath baring not the sword in vain.

    Romans 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

    We as common people are not to take matters into our own hands as in the days of old for conscience sake. God has ordained others for this purpose whether they be Christian or pagan it's all according to God's will.

    Jeremiah 7:1-10 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, “Stand in the gate of the Lord's house, and proclaim there this word, and say, `Hear the word of the Lord, all you of Judah who enter in at these gates to worship the Lord!' '' Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place. “Do not trust in these lying words, saying, `The temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord are these.' “For if you thoroughly amend your ways and your doings, if you thoroughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbor, “if you do not oppress the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, or walk after other gods to your hurt, “then I will cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever. “Behold, you trust in lying words that cannot profit. “Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal, and walk after other gods whom you do not know, “and then come and stand before Me in this house which is called by My name, and say, `We are delivered to do all these abominations'?

    Notice that God desires no innocent blood shed in the land that He has given to our fathers forever and ever, He didn't say “No blood shed.”. This holds true for today because we're still in that land because the new heaven and the new earth are not here yet.

    Romans 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all.

    What about the fact that we are to be pilgrims and sojourners?

    This age is not the final coming kingdom. Scriptures do not teach that we can't participate in activities such as voting or politics. It does mean that we are accountable to a higher authority which should make us better people.

    If we look back into the Old Testament we will find men and woman who were also called pilgrims and sojourners ruling as kings and judges.

    We have a heavenly calling and our thoughts and actions should be based on God's righteous Judgments but we are still citizens of where God has called us to live in this life.

    Acts 17:26 God started with one man. He made all the different people in the world to live everywhere. God decided exactly when and where they must live.

    Even Paul himself claimed his Roman citizenship on several occasions.

    Acts 22:25-29 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said to the centurion who stood by, “Is it lawful for you to scourge a man who is a Roman, and uncondemned?'' When the centurion heard that, he went and told the commander, saying, “Take care what you do, for this man is a Roman.'' Then the commander came and said to him, “Tell me, are you a Roman?'' He said, “Yes.'' And the commander answered, “With a large sum I obtained this citizenship.'' And Paul said, “But I was born a citizen.'' Then immediately those who were about to examine him withdrew from him; and the commander was also afraid after he found out that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him.

    We can serve God through our earthly vessels in whatever capacity we are in whether slave or free, rich or poor all to the glory of God according to His will and righteous judgments.

    Remember, Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets and give us a deeper understanding of them, not to destroy them.

    Matthew 5:17 “Do not think I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy them. But to give them their full meaning.

    Don’t get me wrong….

    There will be a time when all swords will be turned into farming tools but that is at the end when the Kingdom of God is ushered in.

    Isaiah 2:2-4 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

    Many blessings

    #10607
    Casiphus
    Participant

    Of course, you could also phrase it: because the verse doesn't mention rape and murder, does not mean it doesn't apply to those situations.

    In my experience if something truly applies to one area, it applies to many. Here is another example [italics mine]:

    Quote
    Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


    Why not fight against this persecution, or at least defend ourselves? Surely it would be the just thing to do? Or does fighting in the name of God, actually produce negative affects?

    #10609
    k4c
    Participant

    Quote (Casiphus @ Nov. 25 2005,03:49)
    Of course, you could also phrase it: because the verse doesn't mention rape and murder, does not mean it doesn't apply to those situations.

    In my experience if something truly applies to one area, it applies to many.  Here is another example [italics mine]:

    Quote
    Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


    Why not fight against this persecution, or at least defend ourselves?  Surely it would be the just thing to do?  Or does fighting in the name of God, actually produce negative affects?


    Where does it say we can't defend ourselves in all this?

    Jesus told His followers that a time was coming when they would need a sword. He even went as far as telling them that if they didn't have a sword they would need to sell something of theirs to get money so they could buy one.

    That's an awfull lot of a effort for nothing if they couldn't use it.

    Luke 22:35-37 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

    #10610
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Surely once we are established in Christ then our life is in God's hands. Our path each day is planned by him and every challenge is for the good of the kingdom. Angels guide and protect us and all things work together for good. What is there to fear?
    “Anyone who wants to save his own life will lose it and anyone who loses his life for my sake will save it”

    #10627
    MrBob
    Participant

    k4c brings up a good point that I've been wondering about myself. Why did Jesus' disciples carry swords in the first place? Were there any dangerous animals in the area at the time? Is there a broader Greek/Aramaic definition of the word translated to “sword?”

    Also, I know they're many people who beleive that anyone in the military is a sinner. But if that is true, why aren't the police or ssecurity guards sinners? Do they not also use force? Doesn't Paul call those in authority (such as police officers) blessed (I forget where)?

    #10628
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Mr Bob,
    Perhaps so he could teach about those who live by the sword dying by the sword?

    #10631
    Woutlaw
    Participant

    Ok

    But we got to look at what it means to “live by the sword”. A person who lives by the sword or gun in our age, is someone who looks to that sword or gun to solve every conflict. A person in the military or police force doesn't live by the sword or gun. There are many times such individuals solve problems without drawing their weapons. But in a case where their life or someone else's life is in danger, they then use the weapon. I've heard ignorant people say that if you are in Christ, then you won't have to worry about crime. This is hogwash, look at 2 Corinthians 11:26. Here Paul lists his some of the dangers he's undergone. Notice he lists “in danger of Bandits”. Now if he faced that danger, what makes us think we won't? I've heard so-called preachers tell women that if they are in danger of being raped, they shouldn't fight, but they should submit. I wouldn't tell that to my dog. I got a 7 year old daughter, and daddy has taught her a few moves if someone tries to touch her in an unappropriate manner. What do you guys think about this?

    #10632
    Woutlaw
    Participant

    “Anyone who wants to save his own life will lose it and anyone who loses his life for my sake will save it”

    now look at the end of this passage. Notice Jesus says anyone who loses his life for MY sake will save it. Now 11 of the apostle's and many of our first century bretheren sealed their faith with their blood. This is how they glorified God. THEY WERE KILLED FOR THEIR FAITH. I'm not so sure letting a common criminal rape or murder a loved one is glorifying God. That common criminal isn't persecuting you for your faith. I welcome any thoughts.

    #10634
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Woutlaw @ Nov. 26 2005,17:45)
    “Anyone who wants to save his own life will lose it and anyone who loses his life for my sake will save it”

    now look at the end of this passage. Notice Jesus says anyone who loses his life for MY sake will save it. Now 11 of the apostle's and many of our first century bretheren sealed their faith with their blood. This is how they glorified God. THEY WERE KILLED FOR THEIR FAITH. I'm not so sure letting a common criminal rape or murder a loved one is glorifying God. That common criminal isn't persecuting you for your faith. I welcome any thoughts.


    Woutlaw,

    The Jews who keep the Sabbath would never fight a war on the Sabbath. So the enemy new when to attack. After a few losses they decided that it was alright to defend themselves even on the Sabbath :)

    You're right, letting someone rape your wife is not glorifying God. If you just stood there, do you think he would be back, much like the Jewish enemies.
    :)

    #10635
    k4c
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 26 2005,05:26)
    Hi Mr Bob,
    Perhaps so he could teach about those who live by the sword dying by the sword?


    The context in which the statement was made, “Live by the sword die by the sword' was not said because self-defense is wrong. It was said in the context of Jesus having to die on the cross. His mission was not to die in a sword fight. Jesus' missions was to die on the cross. If they were to fight using only two swords against all those armed men they would have died by the sword. Jesus was not teaching a doctrine that says those who use the sword in their work die by it. I know many police officers and military personnel who have work many years and have since retired who are in good health.

    #10636
    k4c
    Participant

    Quote (Woutlaw @ Nov. 26 2005,17:45)
    “Anyone who wants to save his own life will lose it and anyone who loses his life for my sake will save it”

    now look at the end of this passage. Notice Jesus says anyone who loses his life for MY sake will save it. Now 11 of the apostle's and many of our first century bretheren sealed their faith with their blood. This is how they glorified God. THEY WERE KILLED FOR THEIR FAITH. I'm not so sure letting a common criminal rape or murder a loved one is glorifying God. That common criminal isn't persecuting you for your faith. I welcome any thoughts.


    Dying for the faith is something we all need to think about in these end times. Dying for the faith means you will be killed for what you believe. It's a big difference between being killed for believing vs preventing someone being raped or child from being obducted.

    #10637
    k4c
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 25 2005,18:49)
    Hi,
    Surely once we are established in Christ then our life is in God's hands. Our path each day is planned by him and every challenge is for the good of the kingdom. Angels guide and protect us and all things work together for good. What is there to fear?
    “Anyone who wants to save his own life will lose it and anyone who loses his life for my sake will save it”


    What's the difference between an angel protecting us and a minister of God's wrath?

    Romans 13:1-7 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

    #10638
    Woutlaw
    Participant

    I agree 100% KC4

    #13249
    NickHassan
    Participant

    another topical debate.

    #80682
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    One of the best things about our work is that we are not the ultimate defenders of truth. Our God is the Author of what we are priveleged to share. We do not know it all and do not understand much of it but we act as His servants. God is aware of all that we do and backs us up and will intervene to deal with those who hate Him when He decides it is appropriate.

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