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One day will He gather them all together, (and say): “O ye assembly of Jinns! Much (toll) did ye take of men.” Their friends amongst men will say: “Our Lord! we made profit from each other: but (alas!) we reached our term – which thou didst appoint for us.” He will say: “The Fire be your dwelling-place: you will dwell therein for ever, except as God willeth.” for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge. S. 6:128
Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 13 2013,15:52) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 13 2013,14:16) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 13 2013,13:47) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 13 2013,12:53) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 13 2013,12:15) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 12 2013,22:03) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 12 2013,13:50) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 12 2013,12:29) Sodom and Gamorrah was hit by a meteoric debri field. it came in at an angle, clipped the alps and exploded over the erea. The war in heaven was over faith, authority and ideals. It was settled while Michael was on earth.
Colter
So are you saying that God has never punished anyone anywhere?
No, that's a stupid question.
Oh, so when is violence or punishment condoned by God?
All men will eventually be judged, but primitive violence is the way of man. When the Jews wrote about their history they claimed God did many violent things when it was man who did them.Same with Islam, they are very violent people.
Colter
So are you saying God never condones violence? You say men will be judged what does that mean? Will any meet with a violent end and if so why?
If people don't want to grow up and become like the Father, following his will in the plan of progression, then they don't awake from the sleep of death. They are erased from existence.But God is not the genocidal monster portrayed in the OT.
Colter
Is erasing someone violent? It sounds violent I mean what if being in hell you can somehow still repent and get out but total annihilation is much more violent is this your belief?Annihilation is the most violent of all theories and the basis for ALL GENOCIDE
You are trying to justify the immature and barbaric practice of revenge and religious war.Hell is a fabrication by religious leaders used to control the savage mind with fear. The idea of dipping man in fire for a while, then offering him another chance at life is a concept born in an animalistic, primitive mind. [Maybe some people need that fear so they won't take advantage of Gods friendliness and destroy themselves].
The Universal Father and his subordinates are loving, merciful and forgiving to those who stray. They are perfect judges. It is only when a child of God has knowingly, completely and utterly rejected the spiritual life (the ascension plan) that they are inflated. It becomes as if they never existed like Lucifer, “his place was found no more in heaven”
From the book that you havnt read:
Survival of the Human Self
(1232.2) 112:5.1 Selfhood is a cosmic reality whether material, morontial, or spiritual. The actuality of the personal is the bestowal of the Universal Father acting in and of himself or through his manifold universe agencies. To say that a being is personal is to recognize the relative individuation of such a being within the cosmic organism. The living cosmos is an all but infinitely integrated aggregation of real units, all of which are relatively subject to the destiny of the whole. But those that are personal have been endowed with the actual choice of destiny acceptance or of destiny rejection.
(1232.3) 112:5.2 That which comes from the Father is like the Father eternal, and this is just as true of personality, which God gives by his own freewill choice, as it is of the divine Thought Adjuster, an actual fragment of God. Man’s personality is eternal but with regard to identity a conditioned eternal reality. Having appeared in response to the Father’s will, personality will attain Deity destiny, but man must choose whether or not he will be present at the attainment of such destiny. In default of such choice, personality attains experiential Deity directly, becoming a part of the Supreme Being. The cycle is foreordained, but man’s participation therein is optional, personal, and experiential.
(1232.4) 112:5.3 Mortal identity is a transient time-life condition in the universe; it is real only in so far as the personality elects to become a continuing universe phenomenon. This is the essential difference between man and an energy system: The energy system must continue, it has no choice; but man has everything to do with determining his own destiny. The Adjuster is truly the path to Paradise, but man himself must pursue that path by his own deciding, his freewill choosing.
(1232.5) 112:5.4 Human beings possess identity only in the material sense. Such qualities of the self are expressed by the material mind as it functions in the energy system of the intellect. When it is said that man has identity, it is recognized that he is in possession of a mind circuit which has been placed in subordination to the acts and choosing of the will of the human personality. But this is a material and purely temporary manifestation, just as the human embryo is a transient parasitic stage of human life. Human beings, from a cosmic perspective, are born, live, and die in a relative instant of time; they are not enduring. But mortal personality, through its own choosing, possesses the power of transferring its seat of identity from the passing material-intellect system to the higher morontia-soul system which, in association with the Thought Adjuster, is created as a new vehicle for personality manifestation.
(1233.1) 112:5.5 And it is this very power of choice, the universe insignia of freewill creaturehood, that constitutes man’s greatest opportunity and his supreme cosmic responsibility. Upon the integrity of the human volition depends the eternal destiny of the future finaliter; upon the sincerity of the mortal free will the divine Adjuster depends for eternal personality; upon the faithfulness of mortal choice the Universal Father depends for the realization of a new ascending son; upon the steadfastness and wisdom of decision-actions the Supreme Being depends for the actuality of experiential evolution.
(1233.2) 112:5.6 Though the cosmic circles of personality growth must eventually be attained, if, through no fault of your own, the accidents of time and the handicaps of material existence prevent your mastering these levels on your native planet, if your intentions and desires are of survival value,
there are issued the decrees of probation extension. You will be afforded additional time in which to prove yourself.(1233.3) 112:5.7 If ever there is doubt as to the advisability of advancing a human identity to the mansion worlds, the universe governments invariably rule in the personal interests of that individual; they unhesitatingly advance such a soul to the status of a transitional being, while they continue their observations of the emerging morontia intent and spiritual purpose. Thus divine justice is certain of achievement, and divine mercy is accorded further opportunity for extending its ministry.
(1233.4) 112:5.8 The governments of Orvonton and Nebadon do not claim absolute perfection for the detail working of the universal plan of mortal repersonalization, but they do claim to, and actually do, manifest patience, tolerance, understanding, and merciful sympathy. We had rather assume the risk of a system rebellion than to court the hazard of depriving one struggling mortal from any evolutionary world of the eternal joy of pursuing the ascending career.
(1233.5) 112:5.9 This does not mean that human beings are to enjoy a second opportunity in the face of the rejection of a first, not at all. But it does signify that all will creatures are to experience one true opportunity to make one undoubted, self-conscious, and final choice. The sovereign Judges of the universes will not deprive any being of personality status who has not finally and fully made the eternal choice; the soul of man must and will be given full and ample opportunity to reveal its true intent and real purpose.
(1233.6) 112:5.10 When the more spiritually and cosmically advanced mortals die, they proceed immediately to the mansion worlds; in general, this provision operates with those who have had assigned to them personal seraphic guardians. Other mortals may be detained until such time as the adjudication of their affairs has been completed, after which they may proceed to the mansion worlds, or they may be assigned to the ranks of the sleeping survivors who will be repersonalized en masse at the end of the current planetary dispensation.
(1233.7) 112:5.11 There are two difficulties that hamper my efforts to explain just what happens to you in death, the surviving you which is distinct from the departing Adjuster. One of these consists in the impossibility of conveying to your level of comprehension an adequate description of a transaction on the borderland of the physical and morontia realms. The other is brought about by the restrictions placed upon my commission as a revelator of truth by the celestial governing authorities of Urantia. There are many interesting details which might be presented, but I withhold them upon the advice of your immediate planetary supervisors. But within the limits of my permission I can say this much:
(1234.1) 112:5.12 There is something real, something of human evolution, something additional to the Mystery Monitor, which survives death. This newly appearing entity is the soul, and it survives the death of both your physical body and your material mind. This entity is the conjoint child of the combined life and efforts of the human you in liaison with the divine you, the Adjuster. This child of human and divine parentage constitutes the surviving element of terrestrial origin; it is the morontia self, the immortal soul.
(1234.2) 112:5.13 This child of persisting meaning and surviving value is wholly unconscious during the period from death to repersonalization and is in the keeping of the seraphic destiny guardian throughout this season of waiting. You will not function as a conscious being, following death, until you attain the new consciousness of morontia on the mansion worlds of Satania.
(1234.3) 112:5.14 At death the functional identity associated with the human personality is disrupted through the cessation of vital motion. Human personality, while transcending its constituent parts, is dependent on them for functional identity. The stoppage of life destroys the physical brain patterns for mind endowment, and the disruption of mind terminates mortal consciousness. The consciousness of that creature cannot subsequently reappear until a cosmic situation has been arranged which will permit the same human personality again to function in relationship with living energy.
(1234.4) 112:5.15 During the transit of surviving mortals from the world of origin to the mansion worlds, whether they experience personality reassembly on the third period or ascend at the time of a group resurrection, the record of personality constitution is faithfully preserved by the archangels on their worlds of special activities. These beings are not the custodians of personality (as the guardian seraphim are of the soul), but it is nonetheless true that every identifiable factor of personality is effectually safeguarded in the custody of these dependable trustees of mortal survival. As to the exact whereabouts of mortal personality during the time intervening between death and survival, we do not know.
(1234.5) 112:5.16 The situation which makes repersonalization possible is brought about in the resurrection halls of the morontia receiving planets of a local universe. Here in these life-assembly chambers the supervising authorities provide that relationship of universe energy — morontial, mindal, and spiritual — which makes possible the reconsciousizing of the sleeping survivor. The reassembly of the constituent parts of a onetime material personality involves:
(1234.6) 112:5.17 1. The fabrication of a suitable form, a morontia energy pattern, in which the new survivor can make contact with nonspiritual reality, and within which the morontia variant of the cosmic mind can be encircuited.
(1234.7) 112:5.18 2. The return of the Adjuster to the waiting morontia creature. The Adjuster is the eternal custodian of your ascending identity; your Monitor is the absolute assurance that you yourself and not another will occupy the morontia form created for your personality awakening. And the Adjuster will be present at your personality reassembly to take up once more the role of Paradise guide to your surviving self.
(1235.1) 112:5.19 3. When these prerequisites of repersonalization have been assembled, the seraphic custodian of the potentialities of the slumbering immortal soul, with the assistance of numerous cosmic personalities, bestows this morontia entity upon and in the awaiting morontia mind-body form while committing this evolutionary child of the Supreme to eternal association with the waiting Adjuster. And this completes the repersonalization, reassembly of memory, insight, and consciousness — identity.
(1235.2) 112:5.20 The fact of repersonalization consists in the seizure of the encircuited morontia phase of the newly segregated cosmic mind by the awakening human self. The phenomenon of personality is dependent on the persistence of the identity of selfhood reaction to universe environment; and this can only be effected through the medium of mind. Selfhood persists in spite of a continuous change in all the factor components of self; in the physical life the change is gradual; at death and upon repersonalization the change is sudden. The true reality of all selfhood (personality) is able to function responsively to universe conditions by virtue of the unceasing changing of its constituent parts; stagnation terminates in inevitable death. Human life is an endless change of the factors of life unified by the stability of the unchanging personality.
(1235.3) 112:5.21 And when you thus awaken on the mansion worlds of Jerusem, you will be so changed, the spiritual transformation will be so great that, were it not for your Thought Adjuster and the destiny guardian, who so fully connect up your new life in the new worlds with your old life in the first world, you would at first have difficulty in connecting the new morontia consciousness with the reviving memory of your previous identity. Notwithstanding the continuity of personal selfhood, muc
h of the mortal life would at first seem to be a vague and hazy dream. But time will clarify many mortal associations.(1235.4) 112:5.22 The Thought Adjuster will recall and rehearse for you only those memories and experiences which are a part of, and essential to, your universe career. If the Adjuster has been a partner in the evolution of aught in the human mind, then will these worth-while experiences survive in the eternal consciousness of the Adjuster. But much of your past life and its memories, having neither spiritual meaning nor morontia value, will perish with the material brain; much of material experience will pass away as onetime scaffolding which, having bridged you over to the morontia level, no longer serves a purpose in the universe. But personality and the relationships between personalities are never scaffolding; mortal memory of personality relationships has cosmic value and will persist. On the mansion worlds you will know and be known, and more, you will remember, and be remembered by, your onetime associates in the short but intriguing life on Urantia.”
Colter
Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,04:45) Is erasing someone violent?
No, but sending serpents to kill them, stoning them to death, burning them alive, not allowing them to die in the flames of a hell is, but you will come back with some BS argument for sure.Colter
Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,05:27) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,04:45) Is erasing someone violent?
No, but sending serpents to kill them, stoning them to death, burning them alive, not allowing them to die in the flames of a hell is, but you will come back with some BS argument for sure.Colter
Do you eat meat?Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,05:27) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,04:45) Is erasing someone violent?
No, but sending serpents to kill them, stoning them to death, burning them alive, not allowing them to die in the flames of a hell is, but you will come back with some BS argument for sure.Colter
Violence is “the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation.”[2] This definition associates intentionality with the committing of the act itself, irrespective of the outcome it produces.Therefore life itself on this planet is violent by nature. You said annihilation is not violent but why annihilate someone for choosing to not do what you would like them to do?
What makes the inhumane treatment of Jesus so sublime to you?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,08:04) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,05:27) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,04:45) Is erasing someone violent?
No, but sending serpents to kill them, stoning them to death, burning them alive, not allowing them to die in the flames of a hell is, but you will come back with some BS argument for sure.Colter
A
Violence is “the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation.”[2] This definition associates intentionality with the committing of the act itself, irrespective of the outcome it produces.Therefore life itself on this planet is violent by nature. You said annihilation is not violent but why annihilate someone for choosing to not do what you would like them to do?
What makes the inhumane treatment of Jesus so sublime to you?
Another stupid question, I never said I would innilate anyone for not doing what I want them to do, I said God judges people, that's what lead one stupid question to another stupid question.I never said that the inhumane treatment of Jesus was sublime, thats just your dishonesty flaring up again in th form of another stupid question.
Colter
Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,08:40) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,08:04) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,05:27) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,04:45) Is erasing someone violent?
No, but sending serpents to kill them, stoning them to death, burning them alive, not allowing them to die in the flames of a hell is, but you will come back with some BS argument for sure.Colter
A
Violence is “the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation.”[2] This definition associates intentionality with the committing of the act itself, irrespective of the outcome it produces.Therefore life itself on this planet is violent by nature. You said annihilation is not violent but why annihilate someone for choosing to not do what you would like them to do?
What makes the inhumane treatment of Jesus so sublime to you?
Another stupid question, I never said I would innilate anyone for not doing what I want them to do, I said God judges people, that's what lead one stupid question to another stupid question.I never said that the inhumane treatment of Jesus was sublime, thats just your dishonesty flaring up again in th form of another stupid question.
Colter
So what does the Torture and Death/resurrection of Jesus mean to you(personally) and humaity as a whole?Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,10:42) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,08:40) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,08:04) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,05:27) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,04:45) Is erasing someone violent?
No, but sending serpents to kill them, stoning them to death, burning them alive, not allowing them to die in the flames of a hell is, but you will come back with some BS argument for sure.Colter
A
Violence is “the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation.”[2] This definition associates intentionality with the committing of the act itself, irrespective of the outcome it produces.Therefore life itself on this planet is violent by nature. You said annihilation is not violent but why annihilate someone for choosing to not do what you would like them to do?
What makes the inhumane treatment of Jesus so sublime to you?
Another stupid question, I never said I would innilate anyone for not doing what I want them to do, I said God judges people, that's what lead one stupid question to another stupid question.I never said that the inhumane treatment of Jesus was sublime, thats just your dishonesty flaring up again in th form of another stupid question.
Colter
So what does the Torture and Death/resurrection of Jesus mean to you(personally) and humaity as a whole?
I already answered that line of questioning.Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,11:53) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,10:42) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,08:40) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,08:04) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,05:27) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,04:45) Is erasing someone violent?
No, but sending serpents to kill them, stoning them to death, burning them alive, not allowing them to die in the flames of a hell is, but you will come back with some BS argument for sure.Colter
A
Violence is “the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation.”[2] This definition associates intentionality with the committing of the act itself, irrespective of the outcome it produces.Therefore life itself on this planet is violent by nature. You said annihilation is not violent but why annihilate someone for choosing to not do what you would like them to do?
What makes the inhumane treatment of Jesus so sublime to you?
Another stupid question, I never said I would innilate anyone for not doing what I want them to do, I said God judges people, that's what lead one stupid question to another stupid question.I never said that the inhumane treatment of Jesus was sublime, thats just your dishonesty flaring up again in th form of another stupid question.
Colter
So what does the Torture and Death/resurrection of Jesus mean to you(personally) and humaity as a whole?
I already answered that line of questioning.
Actually you didn't, read it again. But also let me ask you this, if there was no hell why did Jesus say this:Luke 16:22-24
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Is there any reason whatsoever for Jesus to illustrate a person in constant torment, this person is not being annihilated they are IN TORMENT.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,14:38) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,11:53) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,10:42) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,08:40) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,08:04) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,05:27) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,04:45) Is erasing someone violent?
No, but sending serpents to kill them, stoning them to death, burning them alive, not allowing them to die in the flames of a hell is, but you will come back with some BS argument for sure.Colter
A
Violence is “the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation.”[2] This definition associates intentionality with the committing of the act itself, irrespective of the outcome it produces.Therefore life itself on this planet is violent by nature. You said annihilation is not violent but why annihilate someone for choosing to not do what you would like them to do?
What makes the inhumane treatment of Jesus so sublime to you?
Another stupid question, I never said I would innilate anyone for not doing what I want them to do, I said God judges people, that's what lead one stupid question to another stupid question.I never said that the inhumane treatment of Jesus was sublime, thats just your dishonesty flaring up again in th form of another stupid question.
Colter
So what does the Torture and Death/resurrection of Jesus mean to you(personally) and humaity as a whole?
I already answered that line of questioning.
Actually you didn't, read it again. But also let me ask you this, if there was no hell why did Jesus say this:Luke 16:22-24
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Is there any reason whatsoever for Jesus to illustrate a person in constant torment, this person is not being annihilated they are IN TORMENT.
That's actually an old Nazerite allegory retold by Peter. It was misremembered as having been retold by Jesus. Peter told that to the crowd after the reaction of the people to Jesus when he told the parable of the Shrewd Steward.Jesus revealed the loving and merciful character of God, Jesus fed the poor and ministered to the sick, he didn't kill them for being hungry like the man made God of the OT.
2. Parable of the Shrewd Steward
(1853.4) 169:2.1 One evening Simon Zelotes, commenting on one of Jesus’ statements, said: “Master, what did you mean when you said today that many of the children of the world are wiser in their generation than are the children of the kingdom since they are skillful in making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness?” Jesus answered:
(1853.5) 169:2.2 “Some of you, before you entered the kingdom, were very shrewd in dealing with your business associates. If you were unjust and often unfair, you were nonetheless prudent and farseeing in that you transacted your business with an eye single to your present profit and future safety. Likewise should you now so order your lives in the kingdom as to provide for your present joy while you also make certain of your future enjoyment of treasures laid up in heaven. If you were so diligent in making gains for yourselves when in the service of self, why should you show less diligence in gaining souls for the kingdom since you are now servants of the brotherhood of man and stewards of God?
(1853.6) 169:2.3 “You may all learn a lesson from the story of a certain rich man who had a shrewd but unjust steward. This steward had not only oppressed his master’s clients for his own selfish gain, but he had also directly wasted and squandered his master’s funds. When all this finally came to the ears of his master, he called the steward before him and asked the meaning of these rumors and required that he should give immediate accounting of his stewardship and prepare to turn his master’s affairs over to another.
(1853.7) 169:2.4 “Now this unfaithful steward began to say to himself: ‘What shall I do since I am about to lose this stewardship? I have not the strength to dig; to beg I am ashamed. I know what I will do to make certain that, when I am put out of this stewardship, I will be welcomed into the houses of all who do business with my master.’ And then, calling in each of his lord’s debtors, he said to the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’ He answered, ‘A hundred measures of oil.’ Then said the steward, ‘Take your wax board bond, sit down quickly, and change it to fifty.’ Then he said to another debtor, ‘How much do you owe?’ And he replied, ‘A hundred measures of wheat.’ Then said the steward, ‘Take your bond and write fourscore.’ And this he did with numerous other debtors. And so did this dishonest steward seek to make friends for himself after he would be discharged from his stewardship. Even his lord and master, when he subsequently found out about this, was compelled to admit that his unfaithful steward had at least shown sagacity in the manner in which he had sought to provide for future days of want and adversity.
(1854.1) 169:2.5 “And it is in this way that the sons of this world sometimes show more wisdom in their preparation for the future than do the children of light. I say to you who profess to be acquiring treasure in heaven: Take lessons from those who make friends with the mammon of unrighteousness, and likewise so conduct your lives that you make eternal friendship with the forces of righteousness in order that, when all things earthly fail, you shall be joyfully received into the eternal habitations.
(1854.2) 169:2.6 “I affirm that he who is faithful in little will also be faithful in much, while he who is unrighteous in little will also be unrighteous in much. If you have not shown foresight
and integrity in the affairs of this world, how can you hope to be faithful and prudent when you are trusted with the stewardship of the true riches of the heavenly kingdom? If you are not good stewards and faithful bankers, if you have not been faithful in that which is another’s, who will be foolish enough to give you great treasure in your own name?(1854.3) 169:2.7 “And again I assert that no man can serve two masters; either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to one while he despises the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.”
(1854.4) 169:2.8 When the Pharisees who were present heard this, they began to sneer and scoff since they were much given to the acquirement of riches. These unfriendly hearers sought to engage Jesus in unprofitable argumentation, but he refused to debate with his enemies. When the Pharisees fell to wrangling among themselves, their loud speaking attracted large numbers of the multitude encamped thereabouts; and when they began to dispute with each other, Jesus withdrew, going to his tent for the night.
3. The Rich Man and the Beggar
(1854.5) 169:3.1 When the meeting became too noisy, Simon Peter, standing up, took charge, saying: “Men and brethren, it is not seemly thus to dispute among yourselves. The Master has spoken, and you do well to ponder his words. And this is no new doctrine which he proclaimed to you. Have you not also heard the allegory of the Nazarites concerning the rich man and the beggar? Some of us heard John the Baptist thunder this parable of warning to those who love riches and covet dishonest wealth. And while this olden parable is not according to the gospel we preach, you would all do well to heed its lessons until such a time as you comprehend the new light of the kingdom of heaven. The story as John told it was like this:
(1854.6) 169:3.2 “There was a certain rich man named Dives, who, being clothed in purple and fine linen, lived in mirth and splendor every day. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, who was laid at this rich man’s gate, covered with sores and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table; yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried away by the angels to rest in Abraham’s bosom. And then, presently, this rich man also died and was buried with great pomp and regal splendor. When the rich man departed from this world, he waked up in Hades, and finding himself in torment, he lifted up his eyes and beheld Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. And then Dives cried aloud: ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send over Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue, for I am in great anguish because of my punishment.’ And then Abraham replied: ‘My son, you should remember that in your lifetime you enjoyed the good things while Lazarus in like manner suffered the evil. But now all this is changed, seeing that Lazarus is comforted while you are tormented. And besides, between us and you there is a great gulf so that we cannot go to you, neither can you come over to us.’ Then said Dives to Abraham: ‘I pray you send Lazarus back to my father’s house, inasmuch as I have five brothers, that he may so testify as to prevent my brothers from coming to this place of torment.’ But Abraham said: ‘My son, they have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And then answered Dives: ‘No, No, Father Abraham! but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.’ And then said Abraham: ‘If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded even if one were to rise from the dead.’”*
(1855.1) 169:3.3 After Peter had recited this ancient parable of the Nazarite brotherhood, and since the crowd had quieted down, Andrew arose and dismissed them for the night. Although both the apostles and his disciples frequently asked Jesus questions about the parable of Dives and Lazarus, he never consented to make comment thereon.
Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,22:01) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,14:38) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,11:53) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,10:42) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,08:40) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,08:04) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 14 2013,05:27) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2013,04:45) Is erasing someone violent?
No, but sending serpents to kill them, stoning them to death, burning them alive, not allowing them to die in the flames of a hell is, but you will come back with some BS argument for sure.Colter
A
Violence is “the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation.”[2] This definition associates intentionality with the committing of the act itself, irrespective of the outcome it produces.Therefore life itself on this planet is violent by nature. You said annihilation is not violent but why annihilate someone for choosing to not do what you would like them to do?
What makes the inhumane treatment of Jesus so sublime to you?
Another stupid question, I never said I would innilate anyone for not doing what I want them to do, I said God judges people, that's what lead one stupid question to another stupid question.I never said that the inhumane treatment of Jesus was sublime, thats just your dishonesty flaring up again in th form of another stupid question.
Colter
So what does the Torture and Death/resurrection of Jesus mean to you(personally) and humaity as a whole?
I already answered that line of questioning.
Actually you didn't, read it again. But also let me ask you this, if there was no hell why did Jesus say this:Luke 16:22-24
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Is there any reason whatsoever for Jesus to illustrate a person in constant torment, this person is not being annihilated they are IN TORMENT.
That's actually an old Nazerite allegory retold by Peter. It was misremembered as having been retold by Jesus. Peter told that to the crowd after the reaction of the people to Jesus when he told the parable of the Shrewd Steward.Jesus revealed the loving and merciful character of God, Jesus fed the poor and ministered to the sick, he didn't kill them for being hungry like the man made God of the OT.
2. Parable of the Shrewd Steward
(1853.4) 169:2.1 One evening Simon Zelotes, commenting on one of Jesus’ statements, said: “Master, what did you mean when you said today that many of the children of the world are wiser in their generation than are the children of the kingdom since they are skillful in making friends with the mammon of unrighteousness?” Jesus answered:
(1853.5) 169:2.2 “Some of you, before you entered the kingdom, were very shrewd in dealing with your business associates. If you were unjust and often unfair, you were nonetheless prudent and farseeing in that you transacted your business with an eye single to your present profit and future safety. Likewise should you now so order your lives in the kingdom as to provide for your present joy while you also make certain of your future enjoyment of treasures laid up in heaven. If you were so diligent in making gains for yourselves when in the service of self, why should you show less diligence in gaining souls for the kingdom since you are now servants of the brotherhood of man and stewards of God?
(1853.6) 169:2.3 “You may all learn a lesson from the story of a certain rich man who had a shrewd but unjust steward. This steward had not only oppressed his master’s clients for his own selfish gain, but he had also directly wasted and squandered his master’s funds. When all this finally came to the ears of his master, he called the steward before him and asked the meaning of these rumors and required that he should give immediate accounting of his stewardship and prepare to turn his master’s affairs over to another.
(1853.7) 169:2.4 “Now this unfaithful steward began to say to himself: ‘What shall I do since I am about to lose this stewardship? I have not the strength to dig; to beg I am ashamed. I know what I will do to make certain that, when I am put out of this stewardship, I will be welcomed into the houses of all who do business with my master.’ And then, calling in each of his lord’s debtors, he said to the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’ He answered, ‘A hundred measures of oil.’ Then said the steward, ‘Take your wax board bond, sit down quickly, and change it to fifty.’ Then he said to another debtor, ‘How much do you owe?’ And he replied, ‘A hundred measures of wheat.’ Then said the steward, ‘Take your bond and write fourscore.’ And this he did with numerous other debtors. And so did this dishonest steward seek to make friends for himself after he would be discharged from his stewardship. Even his lord and master, when he subsequently found out about this, was compelled to admit that his unfaithful steward had at least shown sagacity in the manner in which he had sought to provide for future days of want and adversity.
(1854.1) 169:2.5 “And it is in this way that the sons of this world sometimes show more wisdom in their preparation for the future than do the children of light. I say to you who profess to be acquiring treasure in heaven: Take lessons from those who make friends with the mammon of unrighteousness, and likewise so conduct your lives that you make eternal friendship with the forces of righteousness in order that, when all things earthly fail, you shall be joyfully received into the eternal habitations.
(1854.2)
169:2.6 “I affirm that he who is faithful in little will also be faithful in much, while he who is unrighteous in little will also be unrighteous in much. If you have not shown foresight and integrity in the affairs of this world, how can you hope to be faithful and prudent when you are trusted with the stewardship of the true riches of the heavenly kingdom? If you are not good stewards and faithful bankers, if you have not been faithful in that which is another’s, who will be foolish enough to give you great treasure in your own name?(1854.3) 169:2.7 “And again I assert that no man can serve two masters; either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to one while he despises the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.”
(1854.4) 169:2.8 When the Pharisees who were present heard this, they began to sneer and scoff since they were much given to the acquirement of riches. These unfriendly hearers sought to engage Jesus in unprofitable argumentation, but he refused to debate with his enemies. When the Pharisees fell to wrangling among themselves, their loud speaking attracted large numbers of the multitude encamped thereabouts; and when they began to dispute with each other, Jesus withdrew, going to his tent for the night.
3. The Rich Man and the Beggar
(1854.5) 169:3.1 When the meeting became too noisy, Simon Peter, standing up, took charge, saying: “Men and brethren, it is not seemly thus to dispute among yourselves. The Master has spoken, and you do well to ponder his words. And this is no new doctrine which he proclaimed to you. Have you not also heard the allegory of the Nazarites concerning the rich man and the beggar? Some of us heard John the Baptist thunder this parable of warning to those who love riches and covet dishonest wealth. And while this olden parable is not according to the gospel we preach, you would all do well to heed its lessons until such a time as you comprehend the new light of the kingdom of heaven. The story as John told it was like this:
(1854.6) 169:3.2 “There was a certain rich man named Dives, who, being clothed in purple and fine linen, lived in mirth and splendor every day. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, who was laid at this rich man’s gate, covered with sores and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table; yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried away by the angels to rest in Abraham’s bosom. And then, presently, this rich man also died and was buried with great pomp and regal splendor. When the rich man departed from this world, he waked up in Hades, and finding himself in torment, he lifted up his eyes and beheld Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. And then Dives cried aloud: ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send over Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue, for I am in great anguish because of my punishment.’ And then Abraham replied: ‘My son, you should remember that in your lifetime you enjoyed the good things while Lazarus in like manner suffered the evil. But now all this is changed, seeing that Lazarus is comforted while you are tormented. And besides, between us and you there is a great gulf so that we cannot go to you, neither can you come over to us.’ Then said Dives to Abraham: ‘I pray you send Lazarus back to my father’s house, inasmuch as I have five brothers, that he may so testify as to prevent my brothers from coming to this place of torment.’ But Abraham said: ‘My son, they have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And then answered Dives: ‘No, No, Father Abraham! but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.’ And then said Abraham: ‘If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded even if one were to rise from the dead.’”*
(1855.1) 169:3.3 After Peter had recited this ancient parable of the Nazarite brotherhood, and since the crowd had quieted down, Andrew arose and dismissed them for the night. Although both the apostles and his disciples frequently asked Jesus questions about the parable of Dives and Lazarus, he never consented to make comment thereon.
WOW! Seriously? This was a hard thing forthe SDA as well but they couldn't do what the Urantia Book did which is to just LIE and claim Jesus never said it, although saying John the Baptist and Peter said it but oddly enough Jesus condoned the telling of the story. After that, I dust my feet off because that is a LIE so huge it iscertainly a platform for SATAN.That's what they said about ;Jesus, you have more faith in Satan then God, you talk about Satan all the time. You can have your hateful God who kills the hungry, I prefer the one who feeds and loves them.
Colter
Quote (Colter @ Sep. 15 2013,02:51) That's what they said about ;Jesus, you have more faith in Satan then God, you talk about Satan all the time. You can have your hateful God who kills the hungry, I prefer the one who feeds and loves them. Colter
You say Peter said this and Jesus did not correct him I am asking why you believe Jesus allowed peter to give people a false view of hell?Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 15 2013,05:14) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 15 2013,02:51) That's what they said about ;Jesus, you have more faith in Satan then God, you talk about Satan all the time. You can have your hateful God who kills the hungry, I prefer the one who feeds and loves them. Colter
You say Peter said this and Jesus did not correct him I am asking why you believe Jesus allowed peter to give people a false view of hell?
Good question, hell was always a mythological place of despair and torment within aligorical stories. Some more frightened, unthinking people, think its real.Quote (Colter @ Sep. 15 2013,06:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 15 2013,05:14) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 15 2013,02:51) That's what they said about ;Jesus, you have more faith in Satan then God, you talk about Satan all the time. You can have your hateful God who kills the hungry, I prefer the one who feeds and loves them. Colter
You say Peter said this and Jesus did not correct him I am asking why you believe Jesus allowed peter to give people a false view of hell?
Good question, hell was always a mythological place of despair and torment within aligorical stories. Some more frightened, unthinking people, think its real.
So why did Jesus allow people to believe it is real even saying things like:Matthew 13:42
and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.This indicates continuous torment as a truly hot fire will not render wailing and gnashing of teeth it would be immediate death. not to mention this:
Revelation 22:14-15
New King James Version (NKJV)
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[a] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
It says OUTSIDE not annihilated why did Jesus allow this idea to continue if it were not true?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 15 2013,15:09) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 15 2013,06:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 15 2013,05:14) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 15 2013,02:51) That's what they said about ;Jesus, you have more faith in Satan then God, you talk about Satan all the time. You can have your hateful God who kills the hungry, I prefer the one who feeds and loves them. Colter
You say Peter said this and Jesus did not correct him I am asking why you believe Jesus allowed peter to give people a false view of hell?
Good question, hell was always a mythological place of despair and torment within aligorical stories. Some more frightened, unthinking people, think its real.
So why did Jesus allow people to believe it is real even saying things like:Matthew 13:42
and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.This indicates continuous torment as a truly hot fire will not render wailing and gnashing of teeth it would be immediate death. not to mention this:
Revelation 22:14-15
New King James Version (NKJV)
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[a] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
It says OUTSIDE not annihilated why did Jesus allow this idea to continue if it were not true?
Only 1 of the 4 gospels has Jesus giving that explanation about torturing and burning up people when he returns.I don't believe Jesus ever said that, I have never believed in a sadistic, hatful God.
…..but all 4 of the gospels talk about the resurrection which you reject, so I find your selective anal retentivness to be inconsistent.
The God revealed by Jesus was very different then the one conceptualized by the Hebrews, that's one reason they rejected Jesus.
Colter
Again, the God of the Hebrews “redacted books” killed the poor and hungry, Jesus fed and ministered to them.
Colter
Quote (Colter @ Sep. 15 2013,23:33) Again, the God of the Hebrews “redacted books” killed the poor and hungry, Jesus fed and ministered to them. Colter
So knowing that Jesus was a Jew and went to the temple with the Jews you somehow can believe Jesus didn't know the same God? Jesus disagrees with you hesays:John 4:22
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.Why is Jesus saying “What we do know” he is claiming the same exact view of God that all Jews have and Jesus also supportsthe fact that Sodom and Gomorah was punished by God.
Luke 10:11-12
New International Version (NIV)
11 ‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
So why is Jesus here allowing people to believe Sodom and Gommorah were punished by God?
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.Again they were punished and this is not old testament
Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 16 2013,09:15) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 15 2013,23:33) Again, the God of the Hebrews “redacted books” killed the poor and hungry, Jesus fed and ministered to them. Colter
So knowing that Jesus was a Jew and went to the temple with the Jews you somehow can believe Jesus didn't know the same God? Jesus disagrees with you hesays:John 4:22
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.Why is Jesus saying “What we do know” he is claiming the same exact view of God that all Jews have and Jesus also supportsthe fact that Sodom and Gomorah was punished by God.
Luke 10:11-12
New International Version (NIV)
11 ‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
So why is Jesus here allowing people to believe Sodom and Gommorah were punished by God?
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.Again they were punished and this is not old testament
Jesus knew God much better, Jesus is God personified. Jesus didn't stone people to death; he didn't torture people or teach an eye for an eye. Jesus chose the more positive teachings about his Father from the OT and ignored the rest.Jude’s opinion is irrelevant, besides, there are far more immoral nations on the earth today, oddly enough NONE of the crazy OT stuff happens today, the immoral suffer without the exaggerated fables in the OT happening.
In Babylon the Hebrew priest rewrote the OT books leaving subsequent generations in confusion.
Colter
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