Urantia Trinity

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 03 2013,21:40)

Colter[/quote] Then why do you believe God sacrificed Jesus?[/quote] God didn't sacrifice Jesus, that idea is a pagan interpretation of the cross combined with former thinking from Judaism. The cross was a shared human experience based on the astonishing love that Michael has for his children. God is changeless, he has always been forgiving, the death of his blameless Son was never required. Besides, one reason Jesus gave for allowing himself to be killed was so the he could resurrect his human form from the dead, proving his authority. Colter

So Jesus desired that people should kill him just to come back alive, although you say he was “Michael” the creator of this universe?

Who was he trying to prove this to especially since others had already risen from the dead?

[Spock]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 05 2013,02:27)

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 03 2013,21:30) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 03 2013,18:04) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 03 2013,11:17) You say you don't pray but the UB says you should Prayer is a part of the divine plan for making over that which is into that which ought to be.  (1621.1) 144:4.2 I never said I didn't pray, you are lying again which is permissible in Islam. The size of Islam does not mean it has its facts right or that Muhamed was a true prophet, it is a violent, militant religion that has a large appeal to economically depressed nations and people. Buddhism is a huge religion with no God at all, so size is errelivent. Islam denys the divinity of Christ, his pre existence, resurrection and authority. Kaaba is a fetish, Millions of Muslims make the pilgrimage to run circles around the stone, call that what you want, but I don't trust anything you say because you lie. Colter Colter do you not recall the discussion regarding Prayer and Fasting? If I show you where you said you don't pray or fast will you apologize forcalling me a liar? What did you say regarding prayer? Last chance to correct yourself.

I said I don't pray insincere prayers, I said that insincere prayer is an abomination to God. I said that when I pray I don't do it as some sort of arbitrary, cumpulsive rule of a man made religious order ( 5 times a day). I said that modern fasting evolved from primitave fasting which was an attempt to manipulate the spirit world or God.

I know exactly what I said, go find it and you will see that the problem is your lack of reading comprehention.

The cross was an act of Love, resurrecting a likness of himself was a miricle that has various meaning, but Jesus did say this:

“What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

bodhitharta, on another thread, you deliberately chose the false testimony at the trumped up trail of Jesus in order to refute what Jesus said about his authority and his power to resurrect his human form:

57 Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: 58 “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.’” 59 Yet even then their testimony did not agree.

Colter

[Spock]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 05 2013,02:32)

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 03 2013,21:40) Colter Then why do you believe God sacrificed Jesus?[/quote] God didn't sacrifice Jesus, that idea is a pagan interpretation of the cross combined with former thinking from Judaism. The cross was a shared human experience based on the astonishing love that Michael has for his children. God is changeless, he has always been forgiving, the death of his blameless Son was never required. Besides, one reason Jesus gave for allowing himself to be killed was so the he could resurrect his human form from the dead, proving his authority. Colter[/quote] So Jesus desired that people should kill him just to come back alive, although you say he was “Michael” the creator of this universe? Who was he trying to prove this to especially since others had already risen from the dead?

Death (or translation) is part of Life for all of us, It is the will of the Universal Father that his Paradise Creator Sons incarnate as their own created beings and experience all that we are asked to experience. Death is an ordinary part of life, he faced it superbly.

….btw, yes, others had been resurrected, because he resurrected them. But no one had ever predicted his death and then resurrected himself.

Colter

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 05 2013,03:32)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 05 2013,02:27) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 03 2013,21:30) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 03 2013,18:04) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 03 2013,11:17) You say you don't pray but the UB says you should Prayer is a part of the divine plan for making over that which is into that which ought to be.  (1621.1) 144:4.2 I never said I didn't pray, you are lying again which is permissible in Islam. The size of Islam does not mean it has its facts right or that Muhamed was a true prophet, it is a violent, militant religion that has a large appeal to economically depressed nations and people. Buddhism is a huge religion with no God at all, so size is errelivent. Islam denys the divinity of Christ, his pre existence, resurrection and authority. Kaaba is a fetish, Millions of Muslims make the pilgrimage to run circles around the stone, call that what you want, but I don't trust anything you say because you lie. Colter Colter do you not recall the discussion regarding Prayer and Fasting? If I show you where you said you don't pray or fast will you apologize forcalling me a liar? What did you say regarding prayer? Last chance to correct yourself. I said I don't pray insincere prayers, I said that insincere prayer is an abomination to God. I said that when I pray I don't do it as some sort of arbitrary, cumpulsive rule of a man made religious order ( 5 times a day). I said that modern fasting evolved from primitave fasting which was an attempt to manipulate the spirit world or God. I know exactly what I said, go find it and you will see that the problem is your lack of reading comprehention. The cross was an act of Love, resurrecting a likness of himself was a miricle that has various meaning, but Jesus did say this: “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?” Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” bodhitharta, on another thread, you deliberately chose the false testimony at the trumped up trail of Jesus in order to refute what Jesus said about his authority and his power to resurrect his human form: 57 Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: 58 “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.’” 59 Yet even then their testimony did not agree. Colter

How was the cross an act of love? Also an act of love of what or who?

[Spock]

The cross was an act of love in that the creator was willing to suffer on behalf of the created that he might know what it is like to suffer death and maintain faith. Even Lucifer turned his head at the grotesque and inhuman treatment of the Creator Son in the flesh.

But even in such agony his love saturated heart asked “forgive them Father, for they know not what they do”

Colter

[Spock]

4. Meaning of the Death on the Cross

(2016.6) 188:4.1 Although Jesus did not die this death on the cross to atone for the racial guilt of mortal man nor to provide some sort of effective approach to an otherwise offended and unforgiving God; even though the Son of Man did not offer himself as a sacrifice to appease the wrath of God and to open the way for sinful man to obtain salvation; notwithstanding that these ideas of atonement and propitiation are erroneous, nonetheless, there are significances attached to this death of Jesus on the cross which should not be overlooked. It is a fact that Urantia has become known among other neighboring inhabited planets as the “World of the Cross.”

(2016.7) 188:4.2 Jesus desired to live a full mortal life in the flesh on Urantia. Death is, ordinarily, a part of life. Death is the last act in the mortal drama. In your well-meant efforts to escape the superstitious errors of the false interpretation of the meaning of the death on the cross, you should be careful not to make the great mistake of failing to perceive the true significance and the genuine import of the Master’s death.

(2016.8) 188:4.3 Mortal man was never the property of the archdeceivers. Jesus did not die to ransom man from the clutch of the apostate rulers and fallen princes of the spheres. The Father in heaven never conceived of such crass injustice as damning a mortal soul because of the evil-doing of his ancestors. Neither was the Master’s death on the cross a sacrifice which consisted in an effort to pay God a debt which the race of mankind had come to owe him.*

(2016.9) 188:4.4 Before Jesus lived on earth, you might possibly have been justified in believing in such a God, but not since the Master lived and died among your fellow mortals. Moses taught the dignity and justice of a Creator God; but Jesus portrayed the love and mercy of a heavenly Father.

(2016.10) 188:4.5 The animal nature — the tendency toward evil-doing — may be hereditary, but sin is not transmitted from parent to child. Sin is the act of conscious and deliberate rebellion against the Father’s will and the Sons’ laws by an individual will creature.*

(2017.1) 188:4.6 Jesus lived and died for a whole universe, not just for the races of this one world. While the mortals of the realms had salvation even before Jesus lived and died on Urantia, it is nevertheless a fact that his bestowal on this world greatly illuminated the way of salvation; his death did much to make forever plain the certainty of mortal survival after death in the flesh.

(2017.2) 188:4.7 Though it is hardly proper to speak of Jesus as a sacrificer, a ransomer, or a redeemer, it is wholly correct to refer to him as a savior. He forever made the way of salvation (survival) more clear and certain; he did better and more surely show the way of salvation for all the mortals of all the worlds of the universe of Nebadon.

(2017.3) 188:4.8 When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father, the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith, in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch, a stern and all-powerful ruler whose chief delight is to detect his subjects in wrongdoing and to see that they are adequately punished, unless some being almost equal to himself should volunteer to suffer for them, to die as a substitute and in their stead. The whole idea of ransom and atonement is incompatible with the concept of God as it was taught and exemplified by Jesus of Nazareth. The infinite love of God is not secondary to anything in the divine nature.

(2017.4) 188:4.9 All this concept of atonement and sacrificial salvation is rooted and grounded in selfishness. Jesus taught that service to one’s fellows is the highest concept of the brotherhood of spirit believers. Salvation should be taken for granted by those who believe in the fatherhood of God. The believer’s chief concern should not be the selfish desire for personal salvation but rather the unselfish urge to love and, therefore, serve one’s fellows even as Jesus loved and served mortal men.

(2017.5) 188:4.10 Neither do genuine believers trouble themselves so much about the future punishment of sin. The real believer is only concerned about present separation from God. True, wise fathers may chasten their sons, but they do all this in love and for corrective purposes. They do not punish in anger, neither do they chastise in retribution.

(2017.6) 188:4.11 Even if God were the stern and legal monarch of a universe in which justice ruled supreme, he certainly would not be satisfied with the childish scheme of substituting an innocent sufferer for a guilty offender.

(2017.7) 188:4.12 The great thing about the death of Jesus, as it is related to the enrichment of human experience and the enlargement of the way of salvation, is not the fact of his death but rather the superb manner and the matchless spirit in which he met death.

(2017.8) 188:4.13 This entire idea of the ransom of the atonement places salvation upon a plane of unreality; such a concept is purely philosophic. Human salvation is real; it is based on two realities which may be grasped by the creature’s faith and thereby become incorporated into individual human experience: the fact of the fatherhood of God and its correlated truth, the brotherhood of man. It is true, after all, that you are to be “forgiven your debts, even as you forgive your debtors.”

5. Lessons from the Cross

(2017.9) 188:5.1 The cross of Jesus portrays the full measure of the supreme devotion of the true shepherd for even the unworthy members of his flock. It forever places all relations between God and man upon the family basis. God is the Father; man is his son. Love, the love of a father for his son, becomes the central truth in the universe relations of Creator and creature — not the justice of a king which seeks satisfaction in the sufferings and punishment of the evil-doing subject.

(2018.1) 188:5.2 The cross forever shows that the attitude of Jesus toward sinners was neither condemnation nor condonation, but rather eternal and loving salvation. Jesus is truly a savior in the sense that his life and death do win men over to goodness and righteous survival. Jesus loves men so much that his love awakens the response of love in the human heart. Love is truly contagious and eternally creative. Jesus’ death on the cross exemplifies a love which is sufficiently strong and divine to forgive sin and swallow up all evil-doing. Jesus disclosed to this world a higher quality of righteousness than justice — mere technical right and wrong. Divine love does not merely forgive wrongs; it absorbs and actually destroys them. The forgiveness of love utterly transcends the forgiveness of mercy. Mercy sets the guilt of evil-doing to one side; but love destroys forever the sin and all weakness resulting therefrom. Jesus brought a new method of living to Urantia. He taught us not to resist evil but to find through him a goodness which effectually destroys evil. The forgiveness of Jesus is not condonation; it is salvation from condemnation. Salvation does not slight wrongs; it makes them right. True love does not compromise nor condone hate; it destroys it. The love of Jesus is never satisfied with mere forgiveness. The Master’s love implies rehabilitation, eternal survival. It is altogether proper to speak of salvation as redemption if you mean this eternal rehabilitation.

(2018.2) 188:5.3 Jesus, by the power of his personal love for men, could break the hold of sin and evil. He thereby set men free to choose better ways of living. Jesus portrayed a deliverance from the past which in itself promised a triumph for the future. Forgiveness thus provided salvation. The beauty of divine love, once fully admitted to the human heart, forever destroys the charm of sin and the power of evil.

(2018.3) 188:5.4 The sufferings of Jesus were not confined to the crucifixion. In
reality, Jesus of Nazareth spent upward of twenty-five years on the cross of a real and intense mortal existence. The real value of the cross consists in the fact that it was the supreme and final expression of his love, the completed revelation of his mercy.

(2018.4) 188:5.5 On millions of inhabited worlds, tens of trillions of evolving creatures who may have been tempted to give up the moral struggle and abandon the good fight of faith, have taken one more look at Jesus on the cross and then have forged on ahead, inspired by the sight of God’s laying down his incarnate life in devotion to the unselfish service of man.

(2018.5) 188:5.6 The triumph of the death on the cross is all summed up in the spirit of Jesus’ attitude toward those who assailed him. He made the cross an eternal symbol of the triumph of love over hate and the victory of truth over evil when he prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” That devotion of love was contagious throughout a vast universe; the disciples caught it from their Master. The very first teacher of his gospel who was called upon to lay down his life in this service, said, as they stoned him to death, “Lay not this sin to their charge.”

(2018.6) 188:5.7 The cross makes a supreme appeal to the best in man because it discloses one who was willing to lay down his life in the service of his fellow men. Greater love no man can have than this: that he would be willing to lay down his life for his friends — and Jesus had such a love that he was willing to lay down his life for his enemies, a love greater than any which had hitherto been known on earth.

(2019.1) 188:5.8 On other worlds, as well as on Urantia, this sublime spectacle of the death of the human Jesus on the cross of Golgotha has stirred the emotions of mortals, while it has aroused the highest devotion of the angels.

(2019.2) 188:5.9 The cross is that high symbol of sacred service, the devotion of one’s life to the welfare and salvation of one’s fellows. The cross is not the symbol of the sacrifice of the innocent Son of God in the place of guilty sinners and in order to appease the wrath of an offended God, but it does stand forever, on earth and throughout a vast universe, as a sacred symbol of the good bestowing themselves upon the evil and thereby saving them by this very devotion of love. The cross does stand as the token of the highest form of unselfish service, the supreme devotion of the full bestowal of a righteous life in the service of wholehearted ministry, even in death, the death of the cross. And the very sight of this great symbol of the bestowal life of Jesus truly inspires all of us to want to go and do likewise.

(2019.3) 188:5.10 When thinking men and women look upon Jesus as he offers up his life on the cross, they will hardly again permit themselves to complain at even the severest hardships of life, much less at petty harassments and their many purely fictitious grievances. His life was so glorious and his death so triumphant that we are all enticed to a willingness to share both. There is true drawing power in the whole bestowal of Michael, from the days of his youth to this overwhelming spectacle of his death on the cross.

(2019.4) 188:5.11 Make sure, then, that when you view the cross as a revelation of God, you do not look with the eyes of the primitive man nor with the viewpoint of the later barbarian, both of whom regarded God as a relentless Sovereign of stern justice and rigid law-enforcement. Rather, make sure that you see in the cross the final manifestation of the love and devotion of Jesus to his life mission of bestowal upon the mortal races of his vast universe. See in the death of the Son of Man the climax of the unfolding of the Father’s divine love for his sons of the mortal spheres. The cross thus portrays the devotion of willing affection and the bestowal of voluntary salvation upon those who are willing to receive such gifts and devotion. There was nothing in the cross which the Father required — only that which Jesus so willingly gave, and which he refused to avoid.

(2019.5) 188:5.12 If man cannot otherwise appreciate Jesus and understand the meaning of his bestowal on earth, he can at least comprehend the fellowship of his mortal sufferings. No man can ever fear that the Creator does not know the nature or extent of his temporal afflictions.

(2019.6) 188:5.13 We know that the death on the cross was not to effect man’s reconciliation to God but to stimulate man’s realization of the Father’s eternal love and his Son’s unending mercy, and to broadcast these universal truths to a whole universe.

Colter

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 05 2013,11:54)

The cross was an act of love in that the creator was willing to suffer on behalf of the created that he might know what it is like to suffer death and maintain faith. Even Lucifer turned his head at the grotesque and inhuman treatment of the Creator Son in the flesh. But even in such agony his love saturated heart asked “forgive them Father, for they know not what they do” Colter

Colter

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. How did Michael/Jesus suffer on behalf of anyone?

How would God/Michael/Jesus need FAITH to know how his own creation works? If you know you can create or destroy life faith is not an issue, you said Michael created this local universe.

Are you saying that all the other inhumane treatment of others being crucified had little signifigance? If So that would be strange to only feel horrified at the death ofsomeone you admire but the hell with the rest of most likely thousands being crucified in that same time period of history not to mention Jesus didn't stay on th cross as long as the usual victim thy took him down without knowing if he was even dead.

Mark 15:42-44

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathæa, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.

Understand this “God” can never know what it is like to be MORTAL. If you are God and can raise yourself to Life that is not part of the human experience nor can it bea legitimate experiment and hence the UB view of Jesus has to be false.

Jesus was a man who had faith in God not a God who had faith in his powers. Right now your view smells like garbage and is highly unreasonable considering the vast amount of writings offered

[bodhitharta]

Also you sad Michael was the Father of this Universe so Jesus was asking himself to forgive them?

[Spock]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 05 2013,16:02)

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 05 2013,11:54) The cross was an act of love in that the creator was willing to suffer on behalf of the created that he might know what it is like to suffer death and maintain faith. Even Lucifer turned his head at the grotesque and inhuman treatment of the Creator Son in the flesh. But even in such agony his love saturated heart asked “forgive them Father, for they know not what they do” Colter Colter That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. How did Michael/Jesus suffer on behalf of anyone? How would God/Michael/Jesus need FAITH to know how his own creation works? If you know you can create or destroy life faith is not an issue, you said Michael created this local universe. Are you saying that all the other inhumane treatment of others being crucified had little signifigance? If So that would be strange to only feel horrified at the death ofsomeone you admire but the hell with the rest of most likely thousands being crucified in that same time period of history not to mention Jesus didn't stay on th cross as long as the usual victim thy took him down without knowing if he was even dead. Mark 15:42-44 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathæa, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. Understand this “God” can never know what it is like to be MORTAL. If you are God and can raise yourself to Life that is not part of the human experience nor can it bea legitimate experiment and hence the UB view of Jesus has to be false. Jesus was a man who had faith in God not a God who had faith in his powers. Right now your view smells like garbage and is highly unreasonable considering the vast amount of writings offered

It could be that you are dense and argumentative and don't really want to understand. When we add to that your biased Muslim agenda, you aren't going to be intellectually honest.

Colter

[Spock]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 05 2013,16:03)

Also you sad Michael was the Father of this Universe so Jesus was asking himself to forgive them?

Jesus was asking his Father, the Universal Father, our Universal Father, to forgive. We have a God that even knows what it's like to be human.

You refuse to realize or even consider that it is Gods loving nature to give of himself in the personality of his Paradice creator Sons and their Sons all the way down to the local administrators. That is how and why Satan was able to have the power to mislead, he abused the power and administrative authority given to him. He fell in love with himself, lost faith in the Universal Father, went from perfection to sin and evil, leading the whole world astray for a time.

The incarnate Son terminated the rebellion.

Colter

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 05 2013,21:46)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 05 2013,16:03) Also you sad Michael was the Father of this Universe so Jesus was asking himself to forgive them? Jesus was asking his Father, the Universal Father, our Universal Father, to forgive. We have a God that even knows what it's like to be human. You refuse to realize or even consider that it is Gods loving nature to give of himself in the personality of his Paradice creator Sons and their Sons all the way down to the local administrators. That is how and why Satan was able to have the power to mislead, he abused the power and administrative authority given to him. He fell in love with himself, lost faith in the Universal Father, went from perfection to sin and evil, leading the whole world astray for a time. The incarnate Son terminated the rebellion. Colter

You are still saying that God asked Himself for forgiveness because you said that Michael/Jesus is a personification of God. There would be no point in asking for forgiveness he would have just said “I Forgive you” If your claims were true

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 05 2013,21:26)

Colter That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. How did Michael/Jesus suffer on behalf of anyone? How would God/Michael/Jesus need FAITH to know how his own creation works? If you know you can create or destroy life faith is not an issue, you said Michael created this local universe. Are you saying that all the other inhumane treatment of others being crucified had little signifigance? If So that would be strange to only feel horrified at the death ofsomeone you admire but the hell with the rest of most likely thousands being crucified in that same time period of history not to mention Jesus didn't stay on th cross as long as the usual victim thy took him down without knowing if he was even dead. Mark 15:42-44 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathæa, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. Understand this “God” can never know what it is like to be MORTAL. If you are God and can raise yourself to Life that is not part of the human experience nor can it bea legitimate experiment and hence the UB view of Jesus has to be false. Jesus was a man who had faith in God not a God who had faith in his powers. Right now your view smells like garbage and is highly unreasonable considering the vast amount of writings offered[/quote] It could be that you are dense and argumentative and don't really want to understand. When we add to that your biased Muslim agenda, you aren't going to be intellectually honest. Colter

However, you still did not answer the post you just objected to some of what I wrote as personal opinion.

What was the objective to Michael/Jesus being murdered by his own creation?

And how could a being that has the ability to resurrect from the dead share a commonality with those who can't?

Also you keep speaking about Islam but you really don't know much of anything about it and neither is much of anything written about it in the UB and nowhere in the UB does it say the Quran is false, wrong or misleading so why give the impression that the UB somehow is against ISLAM?

[Spock]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 06 2013,07:30)

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 05 2013,21:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 05 2013,16:03) Also you sad Michael was the Father of this Universe so Jesus was asking himself to forgive them? Jesus was asking his Father, the Universal Father, our Universal Father, to forgive. We have a God that even knows what it's like to be human. You refuse to realize or even consider that it is Gods loving nature to give of himself in the personality of his Paradice creator Sons and their Sons all the way down to the local administrators. That is how and why Satan was able to have the power to mislead, he abused the power and administrative authority given to him. He fell in love with himself, lost faith in the Universal Father, went from perfection to sin and evil, leading the whole world astray for a time. The incarnate Son terminated the rebellion. Colter You are still saying that God asked Himself for forgiveness because you said that Michael/Jesus is a personification of God. There would be no point in asking for forgiveness he would have just said “I Forgive you” If your claims were true

I have repeatedly told you, Jesus is the Son of the Universal Father, while personifying the Father as a divine being, he is still the Son of the Father; he dose the will of the Father.

Also, as a side note, neither would Jesus ask the Father to forgive his tormentors if it ever was the will of the Father for Jesus to die as a sacrifice to atone for mankinds sin.

God was already forgiving in the original gospel.

Colter

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 06 2013,07:55)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 06 2013,07:30) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 05 2013,21:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 05 2013,16:03) Also you sad Michael was the Father of this Universe so Jesus was asking himself to forgive them? Jesus was asking his Father, the Universal Father, our Universal Father, to forgive. We have a God that even knows what it's like to be human. You refuse to realize or even consider that it is Gods loving nature to give of himself in the personality of his Paradice creator Sons and their Sons all the way down to the local administrators. That is how and why Satan was able to have the power to mislead, he abused the power and administrative authority given to him. He fell in love with himself, lost faith in the Universal Father, went from perfection to sin and evil, leading the whole world astray for a time. The incarnate Son terminated the rebellion. Colter You are still saying that God asked Himself for forgiveness because you said that Michael/Jesus is a personification of God. There would be no point in asking for forgiveness he would have just said “I Forgive you” If your claims were true I have repeatedly told you, Jesus is the Son of the Universal Father, while personifying the Father as a divine being, he is still the Son of the Father; he dose the will of the Father. Also, as a side note, neither would Jesus ask the Father to forgive his tormentors if it ever was the will of the Father for Jesus to die as a sacrifice to atone for mankinds sin. God was already forgiving in the original gospel. Colter

You also said that the cross was an act of love. Love of what or who?

[Spock]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 06 2013,07:37)

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 05 2013,21:26) Colter That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. How did Michael/Jesus suffer on behalf of anyone? How would God/Michael/Jesus need FAITH to know how his own creation works? If you know you can create or destroy life faith is not an issue, you said Michael created this local universe. Are you saying that all the other inhumane treatment of others being crucified had little signifigance? If So that would be strange to only feel horrified at the death ofsomeone you admire but the hell with the rest of most likely thousands being crucified in that same time period of history not to mention Jesus didn't stay on th cross as long as the usual victim thy took him down without knowing if he was even dead. Mark 15:42-44 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathæa, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. Understand this “God” can never know what it is like to be MORTAL. If you are God and can raise yourself to Life that is not part of the human experience nor can it bea legitimate experiment and hence the UB view of Jesus has to be false. Jesus was a man who had faith in God not a God who had faith in his powers. Right now your view smells like garbage and is highly unreasonable considering the vast amount of writings offered It could be that you are dense and argumentative and don't really want to understand. When we add to that your biased Muslim agenda, you aren't going to be intellectually honest. Colter[/quote] However, you still did not answer the post you just objected to some of what I wrote as personal opinion. What was the objective to Michael/Jesus being murdered by his own creation? And how could a being that has the ability to resurrect from the dead share a commonality with those who can't? Also you keep speaking about Islam but you really don't know much of anything about it and neither is much of anything written about it in the UB and nowhere in the UB does it say the Quran is false, wrong or misleading so why give the impression that the UB somehow is against ISLAM?

The incarnation served two main purposes, 1) to complete the requirements for a creator Son to experience the life of one of his own created beings (he had incarnate 6 times before among the celestials) he is now sovereign Lord. and 2) to reveal the Loving Father to mankind. His last words were “it is finished”.

question 2) Jesus was a duel origin being, he could self limit his divinity and experience humanity. He is now and forever more both human and divine in nature.

By default the UB says that Islam is wrong in that you don't believe in pre-existence, Jesus as a divine Son or the resurrection, or his place as essentially God of this world. The UB explains that Islam has positive and negative qualities as well as being “evolved”, that means it's not true revelation. Many of the early promulgators of Islam are of Nodite extraction; their descendants are still bellicose and violent people. See Syria, Egypt….well; just see the whole Middle East!

Colter

[Spock]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 06 2013,08:10)

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 06 2013,07:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 06 2013,07:30) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 05 2013,21:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 05 2013,16:03) Also you sad Michael was the Father of this Universe so Jesus was asking himself to forgive them? Jesus was asking his Father, the Universal Father, our Universal Father, to forgive. We have a God that even knows what it's like to be human. You refuse to realize or even consider that it is Gods loving nature to give of himself in the personality of his Paradice creator Sons and their Sons all the way down to the local administrators. That is how and why Satan was able to have the power to mislead, he abused the power and administrative authority given to him. He fell in love with himself, lost faith in the Universal Father, went from perfection to sin and evil, leading the whole world astray for a time. The incarnate Son terminated the rebellion. Colter You are still saying that God asked Himself for forgiveness because you said that Michael/Jesus is a personification of God. There would be no point in asking for forgiveness he would have just said “I Forgive you” If your claims were true I have repeatedly told you, Jesus is the Son of the Universal Father, while personifying the Father as a divine being, he is still the Son of the Father; he dose the will of the Father. Also, as a side note, neither would Jesus ask the Father to forgive his tormentors if it ever was the will of the Father for Jesus to die as a sacrifice to atone for mankinds sin. God was already forgiving in the original gospel. Colter You also said that the cross was an act of love. Love of what or who?

Love of the creator for his children, I already explained that. Did you read the clips? Probably not.

Colter

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 06 2013,08:16)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 06 2013,08:10) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 06 2013,07:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 06 2013,07:30) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 05 2013,21:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 05 2013,16:03) Also you sad Michael was the Father of this Universe so Jesus was asking himself to forgive them? Jesus was asking his Father, the Universal Father, our Universal Father, to forgive. We have a God that even knows what it's like to be human. You refuse to realize or even consider that it is Gods loving nature to give of himself in the personality of his Paradice creator Sons and their Sons all the way down to the local administrators. That is how and why Satan was able to have the power to mislead, he abused the power and administrative authority given to him. He fell in love with himself, lost faith in the Universal Father, went from perfection to sin and evil, leading the whole world astray for a time. The incarnate Son terminated the rebellion. Colter You are still saying that God asked Himself for forgiveness because you said that Michael/Jesus is a personification of God. There would be no point in asking for forgiveness he would have just said “I Forgive you” If your claims were true I have repeatedly told you, Jesus is the Son of the Universal Father, while personifying the Father as a divine being, he is still the Son of the Father; he dose the will of the Father. Also, as a side note, neither would Jesus ask the Father to forgive his tormentors if it ever was the will of the Father for Jesus to die as a sacrifice to atone for mankinds sin. God was already forgiving in the original gospel. Colter You also said that the cross was an act of love. Love of what or who? Love of the creator for his children, I already explained that. Did you read the clips? Probably not. Colter

In what way is being killed on a Cross an act of love, you haven't explained that at all. How does Jesus being killed on a cross show love of the creator towards his children?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 06 2013,08:13)

The incarnation served two main purposes, 1) to complete the requirements for a creator Son to experience the life of one of his own created beings (he had incarnate 6 times before among the celestials) he is now sovereign Lord. and 2) to reveal the Loving Father to mankind. His last words were “it is finished”. question 2) Jesus was a duel origin being, he could self limit his divinity and experience humanity. He is now and forever more both human and divine in nature. By default the UB says that Islam is wrong in that you don't believe in pre-existence, Jesus as a divine Son or the resurrection, or his place as essentially God of this world. The UB explains that Islam has positive and negative qualities as well as being “evolved”, that means it's not true revelation. Many of the early promulgators of Islam are of Nodite extraction; their descendants are still bellicose and violent people. See Syria, Egypt….well; just see the whole Middle East! Colter

How can a being that has the power to bring itself back to life after death and does so experience anything remotely similar to a common person? How is it you believe no one knew that God was Loving before Jesus that is totally a false claim.

The UB is not much more harmful than the Pagan version of Christianity but then again that has led so many people astray and into polytheism which is what the UB does.

Once again you have little to take from the UB towards Islam so you speculate about it. Tell me what people have never been violent? You see what you say sounds ignorant.

Jesus did not ever tell anyone that he was God and should be worshipped. I have joined the UB forum and will see just how you guys think because your view may be not as clear as the others or even more clear

[Spock]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 06 2013,09:20)

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 06 2013,08:16) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 06 2013,08:10) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 06 2013,07:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 06 2013,07:30) Quote (Colter @ Sep. 05 2013,21:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 05 2013,16:03) Also you sad Michael was the Father of this Universe so Jesus was asking himself to forgive them? Jesus was asking his Father, the Universal Father, our Universal Father, to forgive. We have a God that even knows what it's like to be human. You refuse to realize or even consider that it is Gods loving nature to give of himself in the personality of his Paradice creator Sons and their Sons all the way down to the local administrators. That is how and why Satan was able to have the power to mislead, he abused the power and administrative authority given to him. He fell in love with himself, lost faith in the Universal Father, went from perfection to sin and evil, leading the whole world astray for a time. The incarnate Son terminated the rebellion. Colter You are still saying that God asked Himself for forgiveness because you said that Michael/Jesus is a personification of God. There would be no point in asking for forgiveness he would have just said “I Forgive you” If your claims were true I have repeatedly told you, Jesus is the Son of the Universal Father, while personifying the Father as a divine being, he is still the Son of the Father; he dose the will of the Father. Also, as a side note, neither would Jesus ask the Father to forgive his tormentors if it ever was the will of the Father for Jesus to die as a sacrifice to atone for mankinds sin. God was already forgiving in the original gospel. Colter You also said that the cross was an act of love. Love of what or who? Love of the creator for his children, I already explained that. Did you read the clips? Probably not. Colter In what way is being killed on a Cross an act of love, you haven't explained that at all. How does Jesus being killed on a cross show love of the creator towards his children?

(2017.9) 188:5.1″ The cross of Jesus portrays the full measure of the supreme devotion of the true shepherd for even the unworthy members of his flock. It forever places all relations between God and man upon the family basis. God is the Father; man is his son. Love, the love of a father for his son, becomes the central truth in the universe relations of Creator and creature — not the justice of a king which seeks satisfaction in the sufferings and punishment of the evil-doing subject.

(2018.1) 188:5.2 The cross forever shows that the attitude of Jesus toward sinners was neither condemnation nor condonation, but rather eternal and loving salvation. Jesus is truly a savior in the sense that his life and death do win men over to goodness and righteous survival. Jesus loves men so much that his love awakens the response of love in the human heart. Love is truly contagious and eternally creative. Jesus’ death on the cross exemplifies a love which is sufficiently strong and divine to forgive sin and swallow up all evil-doing. Jesus disclosed to this world a higher quality of righteousness than justice — mere technical right and wrong. Divine love does not merely forgive wrongs; it absorbs and actually destroys them. The forgiveness of love utterly transcends the forgiveness of mercy. Mercy sets the guilt of evil-doing to one side; but love destroys forever the sin and all weakness resulting therefrom. Jesus brought a new method of living to Urantia. He taught us not to resist evil but to find through him a goodness which effectually destroys evil. The forgiveness of Jesus is not condonation; it is salvation from condemnation. Salvation does not slight wrongs; it makes them right. True love does not compromise nor condone hate; it destroys it. The love of Jesus is never satisfied with mere forgiveness. The Master’s love implies rehabilitation, eternal survival. It is altogether proper to speak of salvation as redemption if you mean this eternal rehabilitation.

(2018.2) 188:5.3 Jesus, by the power of his personal love for men, could break the hold of sin and evil. He thereby set men free to choose better ways of living. Jesus portrayed a deliverance from the past which in itself promised a triumph for the future. Forgiveness thus provided salvation. The beauty of divine love, once fully admitted to the human heart, forever destroys the charm of sin and the power of evil.

(2018.3) 188:5.4 The sufferings of Jesus were not confined to the crucifixion. In reality, Jesus of Nazareth spent upward of twenty-five years on the cross of a real and intense mortal existence. The real value of the cross consists in the fact that it was the supreme and final expression of his love, the completed revelation of his mercy.

(2018.4) 188:5.5 On millions of inhabited worlds, tens of trillions of evolving creatures who may have been tempted to give up the moral struggle and abandon the good fight of faith, have taken one more look at Jesus on the cross and then have forged on ahead, inspired by the sight of God’s laying down his incarnate life in devotion to the unselfish service of man.

(2018.5) 188:5.6 The triumph of the death on the cross is all summed up in the spirit of Jesus’ attitude toward those who assailed him. He made the cross an eternal symbol of the triumph of love over hate and the victory of truth over evil when he prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” That devotion of love was contagious throughout a vast universe; the disciples caught it from their Master. The very first teacher of his gospel who was called upon to lay down his life in this service, said, as they stoned him to death, “Lay not this sin to their charge.”

(2018.6) 188:5.7 The cross makes a supreme appeal to the best in man because it discloses one who was willing to lay down his life in the service of his fellow men. Greater love no man can have than this: that he would be willing to lay down his life for his friends — and Jesus had such a love that he was willing to lay down his life for his enemies, a love greater than any which had hitherto been known on earth.

(2019.1) 188:5.8 On other worlds, as well as on Urantia, this sublime spectacle of the death of the human Jesus on the cross
of Golgotha has stirred the emotions of mortals, while it has aroused the highest devotion of the angels.

(2019.2) 188:5.9 The cross is that high symbol of sacred service, the devotion of one’s life to the welfare and salvation of one’s fellows. The cross is not the symbol of the sacrifice of the innocent Son of God in the place of guilty sinners and in order to appease the wrath of an offended God, but it does stand forever, on earth and throughout a vast universe, as a sacred symbol of the good bestowing themselves upon the evil and thereby saving them by this very devotion of love. The cross does stand as the token of the highest form of unselfish service, the supreme devotion of the full bestowal of a righteous life in the service of wholehearted ministry, even in death, the death of the cross. And the very sight of this great symbol of the bestowal life of Jesus truly inspires all of us to want to go and do likewise.

(2019.3) 188:5.10 When thinking men and women look upon Jesus as he offers up his life on the cross, they will hardly again permit themselves to complain at even the severest hardships of life, much less at petty harassments and their many purely fictitious grievances. His life was so glorious and his death so triumphant that we are all enticed to a willingness to share both. There is true drawing power in the whole bestowal of Michael, from the days of his youth to this overwhelming spectacle of his death on the cross.

(2019.4) 188:5.11 Make sure, then, that when you view the cross as a revelation of God, you do not look with the eyes of the primitive man nor with the viewpoint of the later barbarian, both of whom regarded God as a relentless Sovereign of stern justice and rigid law-enforcement. Rather, make sure that you see in the cross the final manifestation of the love and devotion of Jesus to his life mission of bestowal upon the mortal races of his vast universe. See in the death of the Son of Man the climax of the unfolding of the Father’s divine love for his sons of the mortal spheres. The cross thus portrays the devotion of willing affection and the bestowal of voluntary salvation upon those who are willing to receive such gifts and devotion. There was nothing in the cross which the Father required — only that which Jesus so willingly gave, and which he refused to avoid.

(2019.5) 188:5.12 If man cannot otherwise appreciate Jesus and understand the meaning of his bestowal on earth, he can at least comprehend the fellowship of his mortal sufferings. No man can ever fear that the Creator does not know the nature or extent of his temporal afflictions.

(2019.6) 188:5.13 We know that the death on the cross was not to effect man’s reconciliation to God but to stimulate man’s realization of the Father’s eternal love and his Son’s unending mercy, and to broadcast these universal truths to a whole universe.”

Colter

[Spock]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 06 2013,09:27)

Quote (Colter @ Sep. 06 2013,08:13) The incarnation served two main purposes, 1) to complete the requirements for a creator Son to experience the life of one of his own created beings (he had incarnate 6 times before among the celestials) he is now sovereign Lord. and 2) to reveal the Loving Father to mankind. His last words were “it is finished”. question 2) Jesus was a duel origin being, he could self limit his divinity and experience humanity. He is now and forever more both human and divine in nature. By default the UB says that Islam is wrong in that you don't believe in pre-existence, Jesus as a divine Son or the resurrection, or his place as essentially God of this world. The UB explains that Islam has positive and negative qualities as well as being “evolved”, that means it's not true revelation. Many of the early promulgators of Islam are of Nodite extraction; their descendants are still bellicose and violent people. See Syria, Egypt….well; just see the whole Middle East! Colter How can a being that has the power to bring itself back to life after death and does so experience anything remotely similar to a common person? How is it you believe no one knew that God was Loving before Jesus that is totally a false claim. The UB is not much more harmful than the Pagan version of Christianity but then again that has led so many people astray and into polytheism which is what the UB does. Once again you have little to take from the UB towards Islam so you speculate about it. Tell me what people have never been violent? You see what you say sounds ignorant. Jesus did not ever tell anyone that he was God and should be worshipped. I have joined the UB forum and will see just how you guys think because your view may be not as clear as the others or even more clear

Jesus did say, in effect, that he was God as a Son of God

John 10:33
John 8:58
Mark 14:60-64

Jesus called himself “the Son of Man” 80 times, see Daniel.

Unlike Mohamed, Quran 41:6 “I am but a man like you”

Colter

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