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Quote (acertainchap @ July 03 2007,00:04)
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.* Indicates that they will be tormented night and day “'forever and ever.'”
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
*Seems to indicate that man will not be “'tormented night and day forever and ever'” as it's not stated. Should we just assume that man will be “'tormented forever and ever'” or should we take a closer look?
I still don't think that universalism is true. I did notice some differences in these two verses though which have me wonder.
Respond please.
Quote (TimothyVI @ July 03 2007,01:01) Hi chap, Do you feel that since one is the lake of burning sulfur, and the other is lake of fire that they are different lakes?
Tim
No I don't think that they're two different lakes.Do you think man '”will be tormented night and day forever and ever'”? It doesn't say the same for man.
Quote (acertainchap @ July 03 2007,01:48) Quote (TimothyVI @ July 03 2007,01:01) Hi chap, Do you feel that since one is the lake of burning sulfur, and the other is lake of fire that they are different lakes?
Tim
No I don't think that they're two different lakes.Do you think man '”will be tormented night and day forever and ever'”? It doesn't say the same for man.
Hi chap,It doesn't say that for the devil either.
It says that the devil will be tormented for eons of the eons.
Literally that means the devil will be tormented for the age of the ages. Some translators translated that to be age abiding.
But it is for some period of time, not forever.The translation forever and ever is a poor translation.
Tim
Hi ,
If universal salvation was true there would be no need for the second death for men, the lake of fire, prepared originally only for the devil and his angels.Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:The correct translation of Matt.25:41 is: …Go from me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready… Eonian is NOT everlasting.
Hi,
From inplainsite
“Universalism was first proposed by the non conformist church father, Origen (ca. 185-ca. 254) and was condemned as unorthodox by the Fifth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople (A.D. 553).. This older form of universalism, taught that salvation would come after a temporary period of punishment. The newer form of universalism declares that all men are now saved (whether they have trusted in or rejected Jesus as savior during their lifetime) though all do not realize it. Some add that the job of the preacher and the missionary is to tell people they are already saved.Certain passages like Romans 5:12 -21, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19, 1 Tim. 4:10, Matthew 25:46, John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4, are quoted in support of universalism. Such passages, interpreted properly, are unsupportive of this doctrine:
Romans 5:12 -21 (Particularly v. 18-19)
“Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous”.
It is inferred from these verses that Christ’s death for all guarantees salvation for all. This is contrary to the context and the entire message of Romans. These verses occur EXPLICITLY in the context of being justified by faith not automatically. In the preceding verse Paul declares that salvation comes to those “who receive… the gift of righteousness”. (This is a classic case of using isolated verses in the Bible without taking the entire chapter, much less the entire book into account).
See Never Read A Bible Verse
The rest of Romans makes it unmistakably clear that NOT everyone will be saved. Romans 1:19 speaks of the heathen who are “without excuse” and that the wrath of God falls on them (Romans 1:18). Paul says that “As many as have sinned without the law will perish without the law (Romans 2:12). Roman 11 is very clear that Paul knew that not all his kinsmen would be saved and wishes he himself were “accursed” for the sake of his brethren (Romans 9:3). He speaks of the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (Romans 9:22 ).
2 Cor. 5:18-19
“All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and has given us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world (not just Christians) to himself, in Christ, not counting men's sins against them and has given us the message of reconciliation.”
In other words… The death of Christ made it possible for God to accept sinful man, and that he has, in fact, done so. Man, through Christ has, in fact, already been redeemed to God and that he may enjoy the blessings that are already his through Christ.
The preceding verse (17) in 2 Corinthians has been totally ignored where Paul makes it very clear that he talking about those “in Christ”, not everyone. In fact this theory makes no sense in the light of the very next verse (20) where he says “we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God”. Why in the world would Paul “beg” the world to “be reconciled to God’ if they are already reconciled. The fact of the matter is that ‘all’ are made savable by Christ’s reconciliation, but all are NOT automatically saved by it.
1 Tim. 4:10
“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe”.
The Universalist takes this verse to claim that God will redeem all men, but can God be called the Savior of all men and yet not redeem all? John 3:18 makes it very clear that the unbeliever is under judgment…
“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God”
If they are condemned already why hasn’t God destroyed them?… The answer is in Romans 9:22-23.
“What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory”
And it is not unknown for God to bless the unbeliever because of the presence of a believer.
“And it came about that from the time he made him overseer in his house, and over all that he owned, the Lord blessed the Egyptian’s house on account of Joseph; thus the Lord’s blessing was upon all that he owned, in the house and in the field” (Gen. 39:5, NASB).
In Matt. 13:24-30 Jesus gives a parable of wheat and tares… stating that
“The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;” (v. 38)
But the servants were also told NOT to root up the tares for fear that they would also uproot the wheat…
Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
He then goes on to say in v. 30…
“Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn”.
So, the tares were saved from being burned but ONLY until the harvest when the wheat was ready to be gathered into the barn. This is nothing but DELAYED judgment.
Matt. 25:46 (by Matthew Slick of carm.org)
“And these will go away into eternal punishment,but the righteous into eternal life”
The universalists do not believe in eternal punishment. Universalists teach that all will eventually be saved through the atonement of Jesus. Therefore, when the Bible speaks of eternal punishment and hell fire, etc., the universalist interprets it to mean an inner sorrow due to loss of reward and/or they maintain that the word “eternal” does not mean “without end.”
In Greek, the word “eternal” is the word “”, or “aionion.” This word occurs in two places in Matt. 25:46: Let's look at it again in a Greek Interlinear form:
The exact same word, “aionion” is used to describe the duration of punishment as well as of the life of the righteous – those who are saved. The same word describes both conditions. If it means one thing in the first part of this sentence, then it means the same thing in the second part since they are both in the same context and both are describing time-duration of the states of the unsaved and the saved. If the punishment is eternal, then so is the life. Likewise, if, as the Universalist says, the punishment is not eternal, then neither is the life. You can't pick and choose how the word is applied in this verse to suit your own theology.
John 12:32 says that Christ's work on the cross makes possible the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles. Notice, however, that the Lord – in the same passage – warned of judgment of those who reject Christ (v. 48).
Philippians 2:10-11 assures us that someday all people will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, but not necessarily as Savior. (Even those in hell will have to acknowledge Christ's Lordship.)
First Timothy 2:4 expresses God's desire that all be saved, but does not promise that all will be. This divine desire is only realized in those who exercise faith in Christ.
Other Passages Conveniently Ignored. (All emphasis added)
Revelation 20:11-15. “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it….. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life…..and each person was judged according to what he had done….. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”.
Psalm 110:1 “The
Lord says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet’”. The “enemies” are here referred to as ‘subjugated’ not saved. They are called the ‘Lord’s footstool’ which is hardly a term that would be used for the “joint heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17, Ephesians 1:3).Matthew 13:30 Jesus in a parable said, “Let both [tares and wheat] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.” Here unbelievers and believers are spoken of as tares and wheat. Two classes!
Matthew 13:49 Jesus said, “This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous.” Again, two classes are mentioned – unbelievers and believers spoken of as the wicked and the righteous.
Matthew 25:32 Jesus said that following His second coming, “All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” Here believers and unbelievers are differentiated by the terms “sheep” and “goats.” The sheep will enter into God's kingdom (vs. 34) and inherit eternal life (vs. 46). The goats go into eternal punishment (vs. 46).
Luke 16:26 we find Abraham in the afterlife telling the unsaved rich man: “Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” Hades apparently had two compartments: “paradise” for the saved, and “torments” for the unsaved – and these compartments were separated by a great chasm or gulf.
1 Peter 4:18, “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
Quote (chosenone @ July 04 2007,14:11) The correct translation of Matt.25:41 is: …Go from me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready… Eonian is NOT everlasting.
Correct to who? Why take the view of a few translators over the view of hundreds?BTW, your bible also uses Enoian in John 3:16. Better than this short earthly lifetime, but who knows how much longer?
Matthew 25: 41
“Depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels
Rev. 14:11
“The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night”
2 Cor. 5:11
“Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men”If Universalism is true, then how can you explain how these verses indicate it? Seems to indicate an everlasting, all-consuming fire.
kejonn to take the view over hundreds? Just because hundreds of people believe in something I would never follow blindly or take anybodies view. 1 Thes. 5:21″ Prove all things is what is important. Not what somebody else is saying or believes. Mrs.IM4Truth
Quote (TimothyVI @ July 03 2007,03:08) It doesn't say that for the devil either.
It says that the devil will be tormented for eons of the eons.
Literally that means the devil will be tormented for the age of the ages. Some translators translated that to be age abiding.
But it is for some period of time, not forever.The translation forever and ever is a poor translation.
Tim
Does it say what will happen to them after this?
I don't think it does.Please respond.
Quote (acertainchap @ July 09 2007,03:01) Quote (TimothyVI @ July 03 2007,03:08) It doesn't say that for the devil either.
It says that the devil will be tormented for eons of the eons.
Literally that means the devil will be tormented for the age of the ages. Some translators translated that to be age abiding.
But it is for some period of time, not forever.The translation forever and ever is a poor translation.
Tim
Does it say what will happen to them after this?
I don't think it does.Please respond.
No it doesn't say what will happen after this. But the point is that there is a time limit on torment. No just God would torment any of His creation forever and ever with no end.
What would be gained?Tim
Nothing would be gained. I do hope that you're right about this. This is the most controversial topic ever.
All will be saved, the “lake of fire” is the second death. When Christ has defeated all His enemies, then the last enemy is being abolished: death. (1cor.15:27).
Quote (IM4Truth @ July 08 2007,12:25) kejonn to take the view over hundreds? Just because hundreds of people believe in something I would never follow blindly or take anybodies view. 1 Thes. 5:21″ Prove all things is what is important. Not what somebody else is saying or believes. Mrs.IM4Truth
The hundreds I speak of are hundreds of translators of the various Bible translations. If we cannot believe what has been translated for us, where do we go?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2007,18:43) Hi CO,
Is that the second death?
Scripture please.
Rev.20:14-15 “This is the second death – the lake of fire”.14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Yes.
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