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Hi CO,
Eph 1
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2007,16:44) Quote (chosenone @ June 09 2007,17:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2007,18:56) Hi Co,
Should we pray for the Spirit then?
Hi Nick.
(1Cor.2:12) Now we obtained, … ,the spirit which is of God, that we may be percieving that which is being graciously given to us by God…Blessings.
Hi CO,
Natural men have no understanding of the things of God because they are not blessed with the Spirit. Many may hope for salvation by the grace of a merciful God but only the merciful find mercy. God has chosen that men are sifted according to the investment of faith given all and only those who can show profit benefit. No man should dare teach beyond revelation and presuming on God that all are saved.
Nick.
Are you refering to the book of Revelation when you say “no man should dare teach beyond?Blessings.
Quote (chosenone @ June 20 2007,17:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2007,16:44) Quote (chosenone @ June 09 2007,17:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2007,18:56) Hi Co,
Should we pray for the Spirit then?
Hi Nick.
(1Cor.2:12) Now we obtained, … ,the spirit which is of God, that we may be percieving that which is being graciously given to us by God…Blessings.
Hi CO,
Natural men have no understanding of the things of God because they are not blessed with the Spirit. Many may hope for salvation by the grace of a merciful God but only the merciful find mercy. God has chosen that men are sifted according to the investment of faith given all and only those who can show profit benefit. No man should dare teach beyond revelation and presuming on God that all are saved.
Nick.
Are you refering to the book of Revelation when you say “no man should dare teach beyond?Blessings.
Hii CO,
2jn
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.Gal1
” 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Nick.
A great posting from “Galatians”, I don't believe you understand what is written, Paul is describing his calling from God, his being saved from the “law”, by the Grace of God. Study especially verse 13, you may be catching on to the truth.Blessings.
Hi CO,
You should walk with Paul.
First you must accept the invitation to be saved
and come to the gate of Christ and enter the kingdom.
Philosophy is vain.Nick.
Not what Jesus said, this is what He said. “I was not commissioned except for he lost sheep of the house of Israel”. But you keep denying His word.Hi Co,
So the gospel was first spoken to the jews who rejected it.
Are they saved or can they be saved?Then you say a new magic apostolic gospel of grace for all appeared
and all men other automatically are saved despite their ignorance and sin.Have I got you right?
GOD
JUSTIFIES,
VIVIFIES,
SAVES and
RECONCILES
ALLby Edgar G. Jones
THIS MESSAGE is written to genuine children in the faith, who have regard to the grace, peace and mercy which is blessing them continually from God our Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. It is an appeal to those who have been distressed and saddened by their contact with apostasy and the attendant evils which have become so familiar among the saints today. With it comes a prayer for those who have seen so much of what they held dear in the past days fail and fall into ruin. Many have have become disheartened, or discouraged, or confused, or perplexed. We desire that they will again examine the Scriptures so that confusion may disappear and in its place will shine the glorious light and truth of the God of the Scriptures; the universal Creator and Reconciler. Our prayer is “that your love may be superabounding still more and more in all realization and sensibility for you to be testing what things are of consequence, in order that you may be sincere and no stumbling block unto the day of Christ.”These matters we place before you that your vision may be enlarged, so that you will be increasing in love and praise, and in realization of the grace and glory of Him “Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.”
Previously we had not perceived the import of this statement regarding God's activity. We were bound by concepts based upon the unscriptural usage of words, such as in the phrase “a divine plan of the ages” and as the word plan relates to details of form, structure and action, so we were preoccupied with the process and failed to consider the goal. Now that we have a clear statement of this scripture, “the purpose of the eons,” our minds leap over the details and fix upon the goal, the ultimate, of which God is speaking. We can now appreciate the statement, “Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.” We can see that our destiny is assured, it is not a thing of chance for God is impelling all to its allotted end. We now see not only a plan, foreseen and laid out, but also a goal to which all things are being actively operated; toward which are exercised the prerogatives of the Deity as the Placer, Arbiter, The Almighty God.
When we perceived this many matters had to be readjusted. Our understanding on many points previously held as true had to be corrected. Our vision was clarified regarding statements such as Rom. 11:36, 1 Tim. 4:9-11, 1 Tim. 2:4-6, Rom. 5:18-19, 1 Cor. 15:22-28 and Col. 1:20, giving both lucidity and potency to them and now we have a comprehension of God in His relationship to His universe that accords Him the glory of Deity.
Let us look again at these scriptures. Let us see how brightly they shine. Let us feel how they warm our hearts and strengthen us in spirit as they give illumination to our minds.
We have in Rom. 11:36 a comprehensive statement which views the universe in its relation to God. The universe is not the outcome of blind chance, neither is it the sport of blind fate. But it is the outcome of God's activity; He called it into being; He it is Who controls its course; He it is Who guarantees its destiny.
We should treasure the statement, “All is out of Him and through Him and for Him,” in our hearts and minds. We should be rejoicing in the God Whom this scripture reveals, for this statement brings satisfaction to our minds because the universe is shown to be based in reason and has an intelligible explanation: to our hearts because we see that God's love will be all conquering, for it will bring the universe into harmony with Himself; to our spirit because we know that our longing for the passing of this world and the inauguration of better things is part of reality, it has its foundation in God Who made us. Moreover, the spirit which is being given to us is of Him Who is over all and will work out His Own will, it is of God Who is all-wise, all-powerful and all-loving. From our hearts we should echo the words of the apostle “to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen! ”
THE JUSTIFYING OF ALL MANKIND
– Rom. 5:18-19
Here we have the declaration of a just award for all mankind and its effect which will constitute all just; and as surely as men were made sinners by one man (Adam), so will mankind be made righteous by One (Christ).The supreme crises of history are centered in the disobedience of the first man and the obedience of the second. These two acts are compared and contrasted in vv. 12-19; the verses 18-19 draw the conclusion of the whole argument.
Let us then take a brief look at these verses 18-19. In order to make this easier we will set these out according to their literary framework, thus the compared and contrasted statements will be thrown into prominence.
v. 18 Consequently, then,
A/ as it was
B/ through one offence
C/ for all mankind
D/ for condemnation,
a/ thus, also it is
b/ through one just award
c/ for all mankind
d/ for life's justifying.
v. 19 For
A/ even as
B/ through the disobedience of the one man
C/ the many
D/ were constituted sinners. a/ thus, also,
b/ through the obedience of the One
c/ the many d/ shall be constituted just.
This statement is clear and pointed; there is no ambiguity; it is not indefinite; it is complete and forceful. We are given three primary statements, B, C and D; in B the acts of the two; in C the extent of the effects of these acts; in D the quality of its effect. In B we are told that the one act in each case was sufficient to produce the result. In C the extent of the effect is shown to be the same in both cases, all who are affected by Adam's act will also be affected by Christ's act. In D the quality of the effect is reversed. The first man brought condemnation; he constituted all sinners. The second man brought life's justifying; He constitutes them just.Let us acknowledge that “constituted just” is more than justification as actual impartation is more than imputation. Also that these verses do not apply during the kingdom, for that is an eon when men shall die for their own iniquity, but to that time when, in Christ, the purpose which saves all and disposes of sin and death shall be consummated.
THE VIVIFICATION OF ALL
– 1 Cor. 15:22-28
These verses bring before us the complementary idea of that in Rom. 5:18-19. In Romans we are told of the moral status to which mankind will be raised, in Corinthians we are told of the quality of life which will be given to them to enable them to live at this level.This passage too we will set out in its literary framework.
v. 22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
v.23–Yet each in his own class;
(1)–23– the Firstfruit, Christ;
(2)–23 thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
(3)–24– thereafter the consummation,
(A)–24 whenever He may give up the Kingdom to God, even the Father
(B)–24 whenever He should be abrogating all sovereignty and all authority and power.
–25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
(D)–26 The last enemy which is abolished is death.
–27 For He subjects all under His feet.
(b)–27 Now, whenever He may be saying that all has been subjected it is evident that it is outside of Him Who is subjecting the universe to Him.
(a)–28 Now, whenever the universe may be subject to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subject to Him Who subjects the universe to Him, that God may be ALL in all.
As we follow this passage, the steps by which God reaches the goal of the vivification of all become quite clear.All shall be vivified, yet each in his own class.
Three classes are indicated as comprising the “all” of verse 22; these classes are not vivified at on
ce; there are three distinct times as indicated by the words: Firstfruit, thereupon and thereafter. In vv. 24-28 we have an extended explanation of the last class, the consummation. Thus, in God's appointed time and way, death will be abolished and all will be vivified.Thus will God become All in all.
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
– 1 Tim. 4:9-11
Here we are told that the living God is the Saviour of all mankind. “Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,” and with this 1 Tim. 2:4-6 concurs.Dear brethren let us carefully consider this statement.
Will God's will for mankind be fulfilled? Surely we recoil from any suggestions that it can fail. Yet how many accept and rejoice in this faithful saying? Howbeit, we who believe that God is operating the universe, we will accept it. Others seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance f the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the “all mankind.” God's glory demands the salvation of all. His will for mankind is salvation, not as a phase in the process, nor as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God. God's glory demands the salvation of all. He will achieve His glory.
Let us then draw together these three scripture statements which we have discussed.
Rom. 5 All mankind will be constituted just.
1 Cor. 15 All mankind will be vivified.
1 Tim. 4 All mankind will be saved.THE RECONCILIATION OF THE UNIVERSE
– 1 Tim. 4:9-11
In conclusion turn to Col.1:20. Here we are told: “and through Him to reconcile the universe to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross) through Him, whether on the earth or in the heavens,” Thus we are lifted from the sphere of mankind into the universal; this is emphasized by the amplifying statement “whether on the earth or in the heavens.” Thus we are told that what we have seen to be the destiny of all mankind is the destiny of the whole universe.My dear brethren, let us embrace these glorious truths which God has revealed for us. Let them so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting them. Let them fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
“To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!”
I AM A CONVINCED UNIVERSALIST
by William Barclay
I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell. He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained. He did not believe in eternal punishment, but he did see the possibility of eternal penalty. And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification.Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism. First, he believed in it because of the character of God. “Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery.” Second, he believed in it because of the nature of evil. Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, “so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all.” Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence. Third, he believed in it because of the purpose of punishment. The purpose of punishment is always remedial. Its aim is “to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness.” Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way.
But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation.
First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief. Jesus said: “I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself” (John 12:32). Paul writes to the Romans: “God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all” (Rom. 11:32). He writes to the Corinthians: “As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28). In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God “who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,” and of Christ Jesus “who gave himself as a ransom for all” (1 Tim 2:4-6). The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all.
Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato – who may have invented the word – plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.
Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God. I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work. I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world. I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe.
Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28). For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God – and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God. If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only King and Judge, God is Father – he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.
[Quoted from William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, pg 65-67, William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977.]
One thing I do not like is long quotes from men when Scripture is perfectly capable if interpreting itself. If we are to get to the real truth, let's use the real Word.
Revelation 20: 7- 15 (New International Version)
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.* I noticed something from these verses…can you see a difference in these verses?
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
I still don't think that universalism is true. I did notice some differences in these two verses though which have me wonder.
Respond please.
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