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Quote (Tiffany @ Dec. 11 2008,11:28) How can the Bible say, Christ died for all; if not all will get a chance to hear the gospel and repent?
Hi Irene,How do you view christ died for all, but not all have heard the gospel – so not all have the chance to repent (even before you get into deception of those who have heard the gospel and get led astray)
Hi MK,
You are welcome to share on any issue but some only concentrate on a few.The universalists major only in what they think forms a platform for their false doctrine-FREE WILL, GRACE, DIVIDING THE GOSPEL OF GOD, DIVIDING THE BODY OF CHRIST, DIVIDING THE WORD OF GOD.
I am finding that as the whole point of christianity is Jesus who came to save the whole world, how that salvation is viewed is very important and how the saviour is viewed as well and has a major impact on a lot of issues – like Grace, free will, trinity etc
Hi mk,
Indeed he did .
And judgement depends on each man's reaction to him-apart from the sovereign mercy of God.Jn3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
…
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 11 2008,12:38) Quote (Tiffany @ Dec. 11 2008,11:28) How can the Bible say, Christ died for all; if not all will get a chance to hear the gospel and repent?
Hi Irene,How do you view christ died for all, but not all have heard the gospel – so not all have the chance to repent (even before you get into deception of those who have heard the gospel and get led astray)
Hi mk,
God has in place mercy towards many.It is my view that far more will find mercy than find the way of Christ.
Matthew 25
The tribunal of Christ relating to the sons of God raised in the first resurrection=fruit.
1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The judgement of the nations after the second resurrection=mercy according to works
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 11 2008,08:25) Quote (Shania @ Dec. 10 2008,13:50) Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 10 2008,22:29) You will never understand the truth, if you keep thinking that all scripture is about us. Under the 'old covenant', it was for Israel only. The four gospels, Matthew,Mark, Luke, and John, are still the continuation of God and Israel. Jesus was the prophesied “Messia”, who was rejected by them, and consequently God turned away from them, to the 'nations'.
What I am trying to tell you, is that quoting scripture from the OT. and four gospels, as being to us in this present era, is useless. “All scripture is FOR us, but not all is ABOUT us.”
Read Matt.15:24, Ro.15:8, & Ro.15:16 for confirmation of this fact.
Warning: If you remove the authority of scripture, you will make up your own guidelines and become your own god.1 Cor 10:11-12
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
NKJVPrior to this verse, Paul was giving examples from the OT. Notice the phrase “upon whom the ends of the ages have come. ” That means that this verse applies to us. Not only us, but all of creation up until “the ages” are done.
Shania.
Who is removing the authority of scripture? We are “quoting” scripture, and understanding what is being said.Matt.15:24 …24 Now He (Jesus), answering, said, “I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Ro.15:8 …8 For I (Paul) am saying that Christ has become the Servant of the Circumcision, for the sake of the truth of God, to confirm the patriarchal promises.
Roo.15:16 …16 for me (Paul) to be the minister of Christ Jesus for the nations, acting as a priest of the evangel of God, that the approach present of the nations may be becoming well received, having been hallowed by holy spirit.
Eph.2:11-12 …11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh — who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands —
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world.Believe what scripture says, …and understand!
Blessings.
This statement:“What I am trying to tell you, is that quoting scripture from the OT. and four gospels, as being to us in this present era, is useless. “
is contrary to this:
1 Cor 10:11-12
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.Quoting from the OT is scriptural because we can learn from their examples.
Luke 2:27-32
When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:29 “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you now dismiss your servant in peace.
30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31 which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles
and for glory to your people Israel.”
NIVMatt 15:21-28
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs.”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.”
28 Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
NIVIf His gospel was for Israel only, why did he heal a Canaanite?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2008,12:15) CO,
The words of Paul you quote are only for the saved.
You need to listen to Jesus as he is the captain of salvation for all who come to him.
NH.
Pauls words are for the ecclesia, the body of Christ, and for those who will be saved, all mankind.
Jesus words were to Israel, and them only.You said it Nick
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life”
Did God love the world, this planet, or the people?
For whom did Jesus die, did he die for the few, or did he die for all?John 1:7 “The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the light (truth), that all men through him might believe.”
Jesus came as a witness to the truth, he gave us the word of his Father, that all men “ALL MEN” that believe in him might be saved. Might be saved, not will be saved. It is still up to the individual to believe in Christ once they hear his gospel. But how can they hear it, if as you say; they are already condemned? And what would be the sense to judge the dead which never heard the name Jesus, who, according to you, are already in hell? Are they then promoted to the lake of fire?
You said once, logic has nothing to do with scripture, you should try it some time, I thing you would come up with better answers.Georg
Meerkat
Jesus came to die for our sins; but as Paul said in
1Cor. 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
Regardless what your sins are now, we all die for Adam's sin; we are cursed with death even before we were born, even before we sinned. Those of us who now hear the gospel and believe the truth, through our faith in Christ, have already everlasting live. But those who never heard the good news, how can they believe? They too have to have a chance to hear the good news, and then make up their mind to believe it or not.
Acts 3:23 “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which WILL NOT hear that prophet (Jesus), shall be destroyed from among the people.”
It is during the millennium, Christs thousand year reign, when all that are in the grave, shall hear his voice and come forth, John 5:28,29.
Christs gospel was not only preached to those that listened then and now, it will be preached to all mankind, when all will hear the truth, and nothing but the truth. There will be then no confusion that we have now; no guessing what is truth, and what to believe.Georg
Hi Irene,
Indeed all in Christ shall be made alive.
But all are not in Christ and never will be it seems.Hi Irene,
You quote Jn5 28-9
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This is the second resurrection as the sons of God have already passed from death to life and do not come under this judgement.
So it is a resurrection unto judgement not reeducation, and judgement is according to works of mercy.[mt25]
Do not forget the damnation bitQuote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2008,04:16) Hi Irene,
Indeed all in Christ shall be made alive.
But all are not in Christ and never will be it seems.
Nick Please pay attention you are replying to Georg not me.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2008,04:20) Hi Irene,
You quote Jn5 28-9
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This is the second resurrection as the sons of God have already passed from death to life and do not come under this judgement.
So it is a resurrection unto judgement not reeducation, and judgement is according to works of mercy.[mt25]
Do not forget the damnation bit
same hereHi Georg,
So after death comes judgement for the nations.
No second chance to believe is written, just mercyHi Georg,
You say
“. But those who never heard the good news, how can they believe? They too have to have a chance to hear the good news, and then make up their mind to believe it or not.”Logic is not helpful as an alternative to scripture.
Quote (Tiffany @ Dec. 12 2008,03:13) Meerkat Jesus came to die for our sins; but as Paul said in
1Cor. 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
Regardless what your sins are now, we all die for Adam's sin; we are cursed with death even before we were born, even before we sinned. Those of us who now hear the gospel and believe the truth, through our faith in Christ, have already everlasting live. But those who never heard the good news, how can they believe? They too have to have a chance to hear the good news, and then make up their mind to believe it or not.
Acts 3:23 “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which WILL NOT hear that prophet (Jesus), shall be destroyed from among the people.”
It is during the millennium, Christs thousand year reign, when all that are in the grave, shall hear his voice and come forth, John 5:28,29.
Christs gospel was not only preached to those that listened then and now, it will be preached to all mankind, when all will hear the truth, and nothing but the truth. There will be then no confusion that we have now; no guessing what is truth, and what to believe.Georg
Georg,I believe there is a difference between soul and spirit. I agree that the soul that sins shall die – Also fear him who can destroy the body and soul in gehenna – Adam became a living soul – God breathed into him the breath of life but he was not made a spirit first then rebelled – he was made body/soul given a choice and chose the knowledge of good and evil – the fall was not from spiritual to physical.
1Cr 15:46Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.When God said lets make man in our image – it seems there is more to it than that the original idea was the end result was to be a body/soul person who when they were tested they would not fail, and when tested they surprisingly failed the test, and that God had to add on a rescue plan to reverse the consequences. The lamb was slain from the beginning.
Part of Gods plan was for rebellion – without rebellion there is no mercy
Man being made in Gods image is first natural – then spiritual
Adam was the natural man – Christ is the spiritual (raised By the Spirit)The process of creation started with the physical and is still happening – God is a spirit and is birthing all of creation first as physical (which emcompasses the soul) where everyone is tried, tested, purified then as spirit through Christ.
It seems that you think that it is the physical hearing words about the story of salvation and believing is what it is all about and all are going to be physically told, however man is tried, tempted in this life – there is a purpose to everyones present life this is where we are tempted and tried, some overcome and are saved from wrath to come, and others will go through the second death.
Some references to wrath was specifically about the judgement against the Jews in 70AD and Jesus was talking about being saved from that wrath – however there is also Gods wrath against all unrighteousness to come, if you mix the 2 you are not going to get a view of what is actually taking place.
Thats how all these disputes and conflicting stories start.
Another point “everlasting life” is not life that never ends – it is life in the age – passing from death (not having your soul hurt of the second death) to life and will never die (this is not talking about physcial death it is death of the soul) However the one who has life in the age once the age is over will still have life in the age that comes after it, so yes ultimately they do have life that never ends “eternal life” Spirit can never die.
How does this passage relate to the overall story?? 1Pe 4:5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 11 2008,15:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2008,12:15) CO,
The words of Paul you quote are only for the saved.
You need to listen to Jesus as he is the captain of salvation for all who come to him.
NH.
Pauls words are for the ecclesia, the body of Christ, and for those who will be saved, all mankind.
Jesus words were to Israel, and them only.
Chosenone,I have been seeing your ongoing discusssion with Nick over “one gospel” “two gospels”
I sort of agree and disagree – there is natural and spiritual and mixing the 2 will distort the message.
Just because Jesus went to the Jews and was telling them that judgement was coming to them and that wrath was coming 70AD (natural) does not mean that he did not also talk about the kingdom of God to come as well (spiritual) The problem is when the 2 are mixed, wrath against Israel and saved from that wrath mixed with spiritual salvation of all people leads to eternal torment of most people and lots of other theology.
Agree that Pauls words were to all who are to be saved – especially believers for they would read and (hopefully) understand but also about all.
Hi MK,
God is spirit so the comparison of man with God is not in relationship to body.
Jesus, the man from heaven, became for men the source of life as he had been filled with the Spirit of life.
That Spirit of eternal life was poured out and shared with his brothers on his return to heaven and is our hope of resurrection.
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