Universal Salvation

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ Sep. 21 2008,07:50)

Nick.
So are you saying that what Christ said in Matt.15:24 … Now He, answering, said, “I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel”, is a lie?

Hi CO:

I know that you have addressed Nick, but I'd like to give my input here. It seems that Jesus was speaking to a Caananite woman when he said he was sent only the lost sheep of Israel:

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Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

And so, his ministry was limited in scope to the lost sheep of the household of Israel, but he helped this woman and also there is some scripture about him helping a Samaritan woman and also a Roman centurian.

And he called the twelve apostles and taught them and then he commissioned them to go into all of the world and make disciples of all nations, and so, although he did not personally go to all nations (too much territory for one person to cover), he did teach and ordain twelve Apostles and sent them to cover the territories that he could not cover, and because he was raised from the dead, the Holy Ghost could now be given to all believers. So, then the Apostles could continue the ministry in the power of the Holy Spirit.

And we the church, should be continuing this ministry in the power of the Holy Spirit.

“ONE GOSPEL FOR ALL NATIONS”.

God Bless

September 20, 2008 at 11:15 pm#106328

Participant

Hi 942767.
You are right, Jesus did minister to the Cannanite woman. He was a capassionate Man, I can't see Him turning down anyones request for healing. But this doesn't negate the fact that He was commissioned to Israel, this act of healing dosn't mean that He was commissioned to teach the “nations”. If you look at the following verses … Yet He, answering , said, “It is not ideal to be taking the children's bread and to be casting it to the puppies.”
27 Yet she said, “Yes, Lord! For the puppies also are eating of the scraps that are falling from their masters' table.”
28 Then, answering, Jesus said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it come to be with you as you are wanting.” And healed was her daughter from that hour.
According to the “Law”, dogs and hogs were “unclean”, He was refering to her status at this time, that is why she said that the puppies are also eating scraps from their masters table. But gentiles were allowed to be accepted as inferior worshippers if the were circumcised and kept the “law”. But only allowed at the rear of the temple, signifying a lower status.
Also, your statement “ONE GOSPEL FOR ALL NATIONS” doesn't agree with Pauls writings. In Col.1:25 he says “of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God :– Also in Ro.16:25 he says “Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian”, So, if his (Pauls) message was to “comlete the Word of God”, and has been a “secret” since times eonian, only now revealed, how can it be the same gospel for all nations?

Blessings.

September 20, 2008 at 11:57 pm#106333

Participant

HI CO,
It is surprising that you seem to believe that because the Message was brought by Jesus first to Israel those words died in his mouth for the rest of men, but the words Paul and the apostles taught to the saved you now offer as some sort of new gospel for the gentiles.

Where did you get the thought that the words of Jesus would pass away?

September 20, 2008 at 11:58 pm#106334

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ Sep. 21 2008,11:15)

Blessings.

Hi CO:

It is not another gospel, but Paul is the Apostle to the nations.

He says:

Quote

1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ

Paul also states the following:

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Gal 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Gal 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Gal 1:3 Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Gal 1:5 To whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Gal 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Gal 1:11 ¶ But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ

So then, how is the gospel that Paul preached another gospel than that of the minstry of Jesus?

God Bless

September 21, 2008 at 3:27 am#106354

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ Sep. 21 2008,07:50)

Nick.
So are you saying that what Christ said in Matt.15:24 … Now He, answering, said, “I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel”, is a lie?

Nick.
Are you afraid to answer the question?

September 21, 2008 at 3:37 am#106355

Participant

Hi CO,
So if Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom to the Jews
and in his disciples he took it to the nations what is your point?

September 21, 2008 at 3:44 am#106358

Participant

Hi 942767.

So then, how is the gospel that Paul preached another gospel than that of the minstry of Jesus?

Paul preached the “secret” that the “nations” are now included in Gods ministy, where they were not before. See Eph.2:11-12 …11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh — who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands —
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world.
God, having predestined “all”, could not reveal this truth to the Jews by Jesus. If He did, then they would have known that Gods' plan was to turn to the 'nations' because of His (Jesus) rejection by them. (Acts.13:46) After all, if this had been revealed to them beforehand, they would have known it was Gods' will that they rejected Jesus.
This is why many to this day do not understand that Gods' will is absolute. “All is of God”

Blessings.

September 21, 2008 at 3:55 am#106361

Participant

Hi CO,
So it is the same gospel of God, of the kingdom but now offered to the nations.

Matthew 4:23
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Matthew 11:5
The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
Acts 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

September 21, 2008 at 5:50 pm#106399

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ Sep. 21 2008,15:44)

Hi 942767.

So then, how is the gospel that Paul preached another gospel than that of the minstry of Jesus?

Blessings.

Hi Co:

You say:

Quote

After all, if this had been revealed to them beforehand, they would have known it was Gods' will that they rejected Jesus.

It was God's will that they rejected Jesus? Are you sure about this? It seems to me that God would working against Himself if this was so.

It is true that the gospel was now to go to the nations which was a new revelation, but no, it is not true that it is another gospel.

God Bless

September 21, 2008 at 7:00 pm#106413

Participant

Hi CO,
When Mark wote
“Mark 1:1
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

was he claiming that his version of the gospel was the only correct one if you see 4 gospels?

September 21, 2008 at 7:19 pm#106415

Participant

Hi Nick & 942767.
We seem to be going around in circles, especially Nick and I. I find myself repeating many things that were already said, going in endless circles. But I do enjoy communicating with both of you. I also feel that we will never agree, and feel it's pointless to keep repeating scripture to each other in endless posts. I would like your opinion on one thing, have you or anyone else, including me, ever changed your opinion because of something that was posted on this website? I can't recall me changing my opinion, I may have, but I can't recall any offhand.
So I think I may terminate my interaction on this website, because I find myself almost getting spitefull at times to you and others, And I don't feel this is proper behavior as a Christian. I may keep in touch at times, I'm not sure. But if I do, I will try to respect all of you, and not to be insulting, as I may have at times in the past.
I would like to hear from you again regarding this, and if asked anything, I will try and answer with respect.

Blessings.

September 21, 2008 at 7:30 pm#106416

Participant

Hi again.
I would like to add one more thing. In my opinion, there are two scripture I feel are very important as to expaining all scripture.

They are:

Ro.11:36 … seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!

And the other:

Eph.1:11 …according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,

Now, these should be read in context within the chapters, but all beliefs should be tested against these words. IMO.

Blessings.

September 21, 2008 at 8:44 pm#106419

Participant

Hi CO,
All beliefs should not first be tested against Paul's words but those of his Master Jesus Christ.

Pauls teachings were to the saved who had responded to the preaching of repentance and rebirth into the kingdom of God.

Pauls' teachings should not be offered to the heathen as some sort of a new gospel.

September 21, 2008 at 9:13 pm#106428

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ Sep. 22 2008,07:19)

Blessings.

Hi CO:

I don't know if my understanding of the scriptures has changed because of something that someone on this site has said, but I have been corrected many a time by God, and because He has corrected me, I know that He loves me.

I have asked some questions of you and your teachings, but no, you have not answered some of the questions that I have asked.

If either you or I are wrong in what we are teaching, would it not be better to swallow our pride and accept the correction than to continue with a teaching that is false.

I want to be corrected if I am wrong. How about you?

September 21, 2008 at 9:39 pm#106433

Participant

Hi 942767.
Thanks for your reply. I always try to answer questions when asked, but so many times there are multiple questions asked in one post, that I may overlook some, though not intentionaly. So before I leave for a break, please submit your questions that I didn't answer and I'll try to reply.
Yes, I would like to be corrected when I am wrong, but who is to judge when I am wrong? Only through Gods' Holy Spirit is truth revealed, even if by another, but through that source is of God.

Blessings.

September 21, 2008 at 10:11 pm#106444

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ Sep. 22 2008,09:39)

Blessings.

Hi CO:

Quote

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

You seem to insist that the gospel to the Jews is a different from the gospel that was preached to the nations, and we disagree on this and so one of us is wrong.

I have you the following scripture to support my understanding that there is but one gospel which was preached first to the Jews and then to the nations, but it is the same gospel.

Quote

And I will add the following scripture to support this:

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Rom 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Rom 1:16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

And so, is it the same gospel to all nations or not? And, Rom. 1:16 states that it is the “power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

You seem say that every one will believe and thereby be saved. Yet, there are many scriptures that show us that the majority of the Jews did not believe. If the gospel is “the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth”, and they did not believe. Are they then saved?

And so, just those two questions. Is there one gospel for all nations or one for the Jews and one to the rest of the world?

And will everyone believe and be saved?

God Bless

September 22, 2008 at 3:44 am#106500

Participant

Hi 942767.

You say: And so, is it the same gospel to all nations or not? And, Rom. 1:16 states that it is the “power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
I believe no, not the same gospel. The gospel Jesus preached to the Jews was under the 'old testament' and the 'Law'. Jesus fulfilled the law, that Israel could not do. Under the 'law, they were required to be circumcised the eighth day, observe tha sabbath, refrain from unclean foods, tithe one tenth, stone adulterers, and many other laws, see a complete list in the book of Leviticus. Jesus fulfilled this perfectly, the Jews could not. Their entrance into the 'kingdom' was conditional that they observe the law. They could not. When they, the Jews, rejected Christ as their promised Messiah, God turned to the 'nations' gentiles. (Acts.13:46)
The gospel to the 'nations', was comissioned by Christ to Paul. (Eph.3:8-9). This new covenant of “Grace”, is by salvation of God, not according to our behavior (works, lest we should boast). ALL SCRIPTURE IS FOR US, NOT ALL SCRIPTURE IS ABOUT US.

You say: You seem say that every one will believe and thereby be saved. Yet, there are many scriptures that show us that the majority of the Jews did not believe. If the gospel is “the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth”, and they did not believe. Are they then saved?
You are correct, the majority of the Jews are not saved…”yet”. But they will be in the future, see Ro.11:26 “And thus all Israel shall be saved”.

You say: And so, just those two questions. Is there one gospel for all nations or one for the Jews and one to the rest of the world?

In this present era of “Grace”, there is no distinction between Gentile and Jew, those chosen now are the”ecclesia”, chosen of God, and will be 'snatched away” (raptured) when Christ sounds the trumpet and we will 'meet Him in the air' (1Thess.4:13-18).
So the answer to your question is, in my opinion, under the 'old covenenant', Including the four Gospels, is meant to the Jews (Matt. 15:24). Pauls epistles to all the saints, Jew or Gentile, chosen by God. Yet to come, Gods “New Covenant” with the Jews spoken of in the book of Hebrews, chapter 9.

You say: And will everyone believe and be saved?
I believe yes, at the consummation, God will be “All in all” (1Cor.15:22-28). There are many other scriptures saying 'all will be saved'.

I hope this will answer your questions, but I realise this is difficult to believe, seeing that no church I know of teaches this. I, myself, when first hearing of this concept, found it very difficult to believe, having been taught for most of my life eternal damnation for unbelievers. It took much study of scripture and slowly I changed.

When you pointed out in a past post that I had copied and pasted an article from another source, that is where I found to be a great inspiration of my present belief. I urge you to have an indepth look at this website, I found it to be my favorite source of understanding.
But of course “All is of God”, what I believe and what you believe is of God, scripture says so. (God hardens all, that He may have mercy on all).

Blessings.

September 22, 2008 at 4:18 am#106506

Participant

Hi CO,
Several gospels about many kingdoms?

September 22, 2008 at 4:27 am#106509