Universal Salvation

[chosenone]

Hi Samuel,
    Thanks for your reply, I found your point of view interesting.  While I do not agree to all points made, I enjoy hearing from all, we can all listen to each other and not be offended when we do not share the same beliefs.  I would like to ask you a question if I may?  Do you realise that God, the creator of all things, created Satan?  After all, nothing exists that God did not create, there is no other power that can create.  Have a look in  ISAIAH 54:16
 Behold!  I, I created the artificer who blows into the fire of coal,
And brings forth an implement for his occupation.
And I, I created the ruiner (satan) to harm.

Again, thanks for your input.  God Bless.

Blessings.

[Samuel]

Yes I am aware that the source of all things is GOD.

But I'm not willing to relish in thought patterns that are in an attempt to convince me that GOD is in some what not what I believe him to be.

Which is what I feel a very conversation like this is. This opens the door for Satan to really confuse a lot of GODS creation on a lot of things that they will probably not understand. That is what Satan like to do introduce things that you don't know or understand, thats what works …hitting you below the belt.
Catches you off guard…makes you fall…your faith…thats where your founded…if he can attack your faith and make you lose it …hes won.

Not going to happen with me…sorry. Satan has no power over me…none…zero…zeltch…nada. He would have to defeat GOD himself to have power over me. And that I fully believe that he can not do. He that is in my is greater then he that is in the world. Gigs up Satan…you've lost.

We could sit here and say…”Well what if?” or “Did you know?” all day long.

But the fact is that GOD does not operate on “What If's” Or “Did you knows”. Those are devices of Satan.

GOD Operates on “If it were not true, I would have told you so” and “Thus saith the LORD” GOD is not the author of confusion. That is the way Satan works, if he can confuse you he can divide you, and if he can divide you he can win.

Well Satan I've got some very bad news for you…your not going to win here and you have lost this fight ….way before it ever got started.

[chosenone]

Hi all,
Thank you all for your input, I appreciate discussing scripture with all of you that take the time to respond. I will be taking a break from this website for awhile, I find it is very time consuming. I hope to return in a few weeks or so, but I will look at this site from time to time. Bye for now, God bless you all.

Jerry.

[NickHassan]

Hi CO,
You say
“These words apply to all mankind. “

Really?
Sounds a little presumptuous to me.
God does not sup with those who hate Him and His words.

[seek and you will find]

Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 16 2008,11:09)

Hi Samuel,     Thanks for your reply, I found your point of view interesting.  While I do not agree to all points made, I enjoy hearing from all, we can all listen to each other and not be offended when we do not share the same beliefs.  I would like to ask you a question if I may?  Do you realise that God, the creator of all things, created Satan?  After all, nothing exists that God did not create, there is no other power that can create.  Have a look in  ISAIAH 54:16  Behold!  I, I created the artificer who blows into the fire of coal, And brings forth an implement for his occupation. And I, I created the ruiner (satan) to harm. Again, thanks for your input.  God Bless. Blessings.

We have to remember that when God through Jesus created all things, they and all was beautiful. And so were all the Angels. Lucifer was one of the most beautiful of all and that is why He thought He could throw God of His Throne, so He could be the Almighty God. Like I said before there was a fight in heaven and God through Satan down to this earth.
When God created things they were beautiful and good, until inequity was found in him.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[NickHassan]

Hi Co,
You quote.
'We cannot conceive an unrepentant sinner before the great white throne.'

I am sure you are right.
But opportunities cease when we die.
I am unconvinced other chances would still be offered for effective repentance.

None are found in scripture.

[Shania]

There is some confusion in the way that our Father judges. It is not evil; it is love. This comes from a misunderstanding of love and discipline:

Isa 45:7-13
7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

Whoa! He creates darkness and disaster??!!! Why would He do this? Does this mean that He created something evil?

Later on in that passage….

Isa 45:22-25

22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength.'”

OK- so this proves the salvation of all, right? It says that every knee would bow….
What is bowing? It is submission. Can one submit and still be rebellious at the same time?

Luke 4:33-35

33 In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon , an evil spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, 34 “Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are — the Holy One of God!”

35 “Be quiet!” Jesus said sternly. “Come out of him!” Then the demon threw the man down before them all and came out without injuring him.
NIV

Luke 8:27-29
27 When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!”
NIV

Luke 8:32

32 A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into them, and he gave them permission.
NIV

Luke 10:17

17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
NIV

Luke 4:41
41 Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.
NIV

Acts 16:17-18
17 This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
NIV

James 2:19
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that — and shudder.
NIV

So it looks like the demons can do nothing but submit to the Father- and yet they shudder…if they were to be saved in the end, why would they shudder?

Let’s go back to the original passage again:

Isa 45:22-25

22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;

You’ve got to turn to Him in order to be saved.

for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength.'”

All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.

So they are coming to Him, but being put to shame…what does this mean?

Matt 13:49-50
49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
NIV

Matt 25:31-33
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
NIV

Matt 25:41-42

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
NIV

Matt 25:46-26:1

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
NIV

The word translated as eternal here is aioonios (NT:166)

without end, never to cease, everlasting:
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

This means that the life as well as the punishment is eternal and does not end.

Back to the original again…

24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength.'”

All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.

25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel
will be found righteous and will exult.
NIV

[This is not a limit to the physical descendants. To be a son of someone means that you are taking on their characteristics. That is why we see the phrase, “son’s of the devil”, vs. “son’s of God” Also, John the Baptist told the Pharisees not to claim Abraham as their father. Why? Because they were nothing like him. Paul also says that a Jew is one who is circumcised of the heart, inwardly.]

So why does He bring forth destruction again?

Jer 31:18-20

18 “I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning:
'You disciplined me like an unruly calf,
and I have been disciplined.
Restore me, and I will return,
because you are the LORD my God.
19 After I strayed,
I repented;
after I came to understand,
I beat my breast.
I was ashamed and humiliated
because I bore the disgrace of my youth.'
20 Is not Ephraim my dear son,
the child in whom I delight?
Though I often speak against him,
I still remember him.
Therefore my heart yearns for him;
I have great compassion for him,”
declares the LORD.
NIV

You see, our sufferings have a purpose. The Father is looking for a heart response. This is because He is a loving Father. He disciplines those that He loves. Remember, you will learn obedience from suffering…

Heb 5:8-9
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
NIV

The Father makes a way for His true sons and daughters to enter in and spend eternity with Him- that is through discipline and suffering. Why? Because the light cannot abide with darkness- in other words, the darkness in you has to be exposed for what it is and you need to change.

John 3:19-21
20 Everyone who does evil hates the light , and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”
NIV

Light exposes- when you are walking in integrity, you do not mind the light, for you have nothing to hide. Remember in the garden of Eden, before sin? Adam and Eve were naked and felt no shame. It is only with the entrance of sin that they felt the need to cover up…Also, perfect love casts out fear b/c fear has to do w/ punishment. You see, if you love Him perfectly, you do not want to hide anything from Him. Sin exposes in yourself that you truly do not love him perfectly.

2 Cor 6:14-15
For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?
NIV

Eph 5:4-18
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person — such a man is an idolater — has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because
of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord. 11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:

“Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”

This is getting personal- you see, if you have a heart of love for Him, it is ok for darkness to get exposed in you. Extremely hard, but it is the only way that you can rise from the dead. You are dead in your sins, for that is what sin causes. If you want Him, you want to be exposed so that you know what is in you, and you repent of it. This is fellowship with the light. Coming out of the darkness is a process. You do not become this magically wonderful person overnight. No, you have to beat your body and make it your slave. [1 Cor 9:27]

15 Be very careful, then, how you live — not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. [What is His will? It is what we have been talking about! That you may be saved- know Him/ have fellowship with His light. If He were going to save you no matter how you lived, what is the point of being careful how we live?]
NIV

It looks to me like a change of lifestyle is required. If this were not important and we would all be saved, there would be no sense in warning us…

1 John 1:5-2:6

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light ; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light , as he is in the light , we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Like I said before, it is a process- as you walk in the light, your darkness is exposed, you turn from sin, you are purified, you get more light.

Why am I saying all this about being exposed? It is His discipline. It hurts! It grieves us! Our pride gets bruised!…. It is worth it! On the other side of it, you get HIM.

1 John 2

2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense — Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

When we sin, He is mediating for us. His sacrifice has atoned for us and the sins of the whole world… wait a second… does that disprove what I have been saying?

If someone offers you a gift but you do not accept does that mean that they never offered it? Moreover…

Heb 10:26-28

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 2
NIV

You see, they had the sacrifice initially- they could claim the atoning blood of the lamb- however, if they reject Him, (because that is what deliberate sin is), no sacrifice is left. So, one could say that they had Him as an atoning sacrifice, but do to rebellion, it is not effective for them. You are in a covenant. It goes two ways.

3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
NIV

Our Father loves us, He wants to have fellowship with us, therefore all rebellion must be driven out:

Amos 3:2

2 “You only have I chosen
of all the families of the earth;
therefore I will punish you
for all your sins.” …..

He loves them- he chose them- that is why he punishes them

Amos 3:6
6 When a trumpet sounds in a city,
do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city,
has not the LORD caused it ?
NIV
……

He caused disaster- it was out of love. It was for those who would turn back to Him and repent.

Amos 3:10-12

10 “They do not know how to do right,” declares the LORD,
“who hoard plunder and loot in their fortresses.”

11 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:

“An enemy will overrun the land;
he will pull down your strongholds
and plunder your fortresses.”

12 This is what the LORD says:

“As a shepherd saves from the lion's mouth
only two leg bones or a piece of an ear,
so will the Israelites be saved,
NIV

So the lion has eaten the whole sheep (or maybe the whole flock, we don’t know). Only a small part is saved. One might call this a remnant…..

This is so serious!!!!!!

Matt 7:13-14

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
NIV

Luke 13:24-25
24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
NIV

[NickHassan]

Hi Shania.
You say
“Isa 45:22-25

22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength.'”

OK- so this proves the salvation of all, right?  It says that every knee would bow….
What is bowing?  It is submission.  Can one submit and still be rebellious at the same time?”

Quite so.
They will know they have been fools before they go.
For many their bowing before great King Jesus will be their final act.

[Shania]

I read something earlier in this topic: that christians get a sick pride from thinking that theirs is the only way- that not everyone would make it, and that makes them feel good about themselves.

First of all- that is really sick. There may be some who have this attitude, but they will not make it- that attitude is hatred against their brothers, and it is not the heart of the Father. It comes from insecurity.

Here is the heart that we need to have for this:

Jer 13:15-17

15 Hear and pay attention,
do not be arrogant,
for the LORD has spoken.
16 Give glory to the LORD your God
before he brings the darkness,
before your feet stumble
on the darkening hills.
You hope for light,
but he will turn it to thick darkness
and change it to deep gloom.
17 But if you do not listen,
I will weep in secret
because of your pride;
my eyes will weep bitterly,
overflowing with tears,
because the LORD's flock will be taken captive.
NIV

Joel 2:17-18
17 Let the priests, who minister before the LORD,
weep between the temple porch and the altar.
Let them say, 'Spare your people, O LORD.
Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
'Where is their God?''

18 Then the LORD will be jealous for his land
and take pity on his people.
NIV

They are standing between the sinful people and the LORD [YHWH]- they are making intercession.

Luke 6:21
21 Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
NIV

Ezek 9:3-4
4 and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.”
NIV

Neh 1:4-9

4 When I heard these things, I sat down and wept . For some days I mourned and fasted and prayed before the God of heaven. 5 Then I said:

“O LORD, God of heaven, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and obey his commands, 6 let your ear be attentive and your eyes open to hear the prayer your servant is praying before you day and night for your servants, the people of Israel. I confess the sins we Israelites, including myself and my father's house, have committed against you. 7 We have acted very wickedly toward you. We have not obeyed the commands, decrees and laws you gave your servant Moses.
8 “Remember the instruction you gave your servant Moses, saying, 'If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the nations, 9 but if you return to me and obey my commands, then even if your exiled people are at the farthest horizon, I will gather them from there and bring them to the place I have chosen as a dwelling for my Name.'
NIV

Ezek 22:30-31

30 “I looked for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found none.
NIV

You see, if you have a rebellious heart that will not love Him- He will give you the desires of your heart. Sin is destruction. Death. But, He is looking for a people to intercede….

Ex 32:9-12
10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. “O LORD,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand?
NIV

Moses could have taken this as a reward, but he loved the people enough to plead for them. This is the kind of meekness and love that the Father wants from us.

Num 12:10-13

10 When the cloud lifted from above the Tent, there stood Miriam — leprous, like snow. Aaron turned toward her and saw that she had leprosy; 11 and he said to Moses, “Please, my lord, do not hold against us the sin we have so foolishly committed. 12 Do not let her be like a stillborn infant coming from its mother's womb with its flesh half eaten away.”

13 So Moses cried out to the LORD, “O God, please heal her!” [this was after Miriam and Aaron were speaking ill of Moses- they were punished for it. Moses could have been offended, but he was not. Miriam's punishment was justified, but Moses pleaded and stood in the gap for her- he loved her.
NIV

Now for the New Testament believer:

2 Cor 5:18-21
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
NIV

2 Cor 6:1-10
6:1 As God's fellow workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. 2 For he says,

“In the time of my favor I heard you,
and in the day of salvation I helped you.”

I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

[Here is the life of an ambassador:]

3 We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. 4 Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; 5 in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; 6 in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; 7 in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; 8 through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; 9 known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; 10 sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.
NIV

It is not easy to be an ambassador of Messiah- in the flesh…. But once you put that flesh to death, you care much more about the souls of men than your light and momentary suffering. This is all about perspective…

Heb 12:2-3
2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
NIV

What was the joy set before him? It was you.

John 15:12-13
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
NIV

He is telling us that we have to lay our lives down for each other- “Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” This is intense, selfless love- and it is a command. However, His commands are not burdensome to the one who loves him and shares his heart.

1 John 3:16

16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
NIV

Remember when I said that those holding the attitude that I mentioned before would not make it? Sounds harsh, but this is why:
1 John 3:18-23
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

You see, if you do not demonstrate this self-sacrificial l
ove with your actions, you do not belong to the truth.

21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.
NIV

What are you asking for? You are concerned with HIs heart. You are about your Father's business. You are asking for souls… YOu see, He gives you the desires of your heart because you have the desires of His heart. You are obeying His commands: loving your brothers to the point of giving up your life.

Matt 22:37-39

37 Jesus replied: “'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
NIV

[NickHassan]

Hi Shania,
Yes we must love our brothers unto death.
Are all men our brothers?
Are they all brothers of Christ?
No.

There is no union between Christ and Belial

16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

17For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

18Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

19What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

22Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

2 Corinthians 6:15
Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?

[Shania]

Nick:

What you say is true, however we do not know who will be our brothers and sisters- or who would be if we prayed for them and reached out for them. I have friends that were downright scary before they came into the kingdom… [how much darkness they were in, how unapproachable and “worldly” they were.] I have seen these same people on fire…witnessing, praying for the sick and the sick getting healed. When people hear who they used to be, they do not believe it.

So we are not to share in the practices of darkness, or even condone them (for that is what those verses you quoted are about) , but we are to love those lost in the dark and provide as much light for them as we can. That is the whole point of why we are here. We pray for His will- He alone knows the plan that He has for them and what they need.

[NickHassan]

Hi Shania,
You are right that we do not know, and the mercy of God will save many more than we can imagine.
But we also do not presume on that mercy and go beyond His teachings on these matters.
The Spirit gives discernment as to who is a brother in Christ and who is deceived.

[Shania]

Nick:

“But we also do not presume on that mercy and go beyond His teachings on these matters.”

Absolutely. He is the way, the truth, and the life- the only way. No one comes to him unless the Father draws them…

[Samuel]

Well by this scripture alone:

Matthew 24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

We know not all are going to make it. It clearly states that one is left.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Samuel @ Mar. 19 2008,15:45)

Well by this scripture alone: Matthew 24:40     Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. We know not all are going to make it.   It clearly states that one is left.

Hi Samuel,

is that just referring to the first ones to join Jesus when He returns?

Tim

[Samuel]

The way I understand that is that two people are going to be standing somewhere and all the sudden one of them is going to be caught up, leaving the other one standing there.

Most commonly reffered to as the Rapture.

Matthew 25
1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

And by this passage we can discern that the door is going to be shut.

I mean from what I'm  getting from this thread that people are tyring to teach that you can be like the 5 virgins …”Aw…it don't matter, no one is going to be “Kept” away from the LORD, and you can just lay up and sleep and your still going to be alright”

Not so…
According to scripture…as it is written…would the Bible make statements to be in vain?
Not so…

Thats the excat same lie that the serpent told Eve in the garden…remember?

Genesis 3
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

And for anyone that wants to say “Well Eve didn't die” Or “At least she did not die right then…but she did die:

1 Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[Cato]

I have brought up a thread in the general questions section that outlines how what many commonly view as God's plan for salvation seems flawed.  I freely admit my argument is based not on scripture but logic.  I see God's law written in the universe and no where in God's creation do finite causes lead to infinite results.  I believe all will eventually be saved because God's truth (and in Jesus we have a human, comprehensible, model to follow) is too apparent to be forever denied.  Some may come fast and others slow but truth will always come out in the end.  This does in no way give sin or sinners a free ride for all are responsible for their thoughts and deeds.  I think God does not punish us, rather we are forced to deal with the results of how we lived.  God created a universe of cause and effect, hate leads to hate, love to love and forgiveness to being forgiven.  Only God can see into each individual soul and judge both intent and accomplishment based on the tools given us and situation he placed us in.  The one size, one situation fits all plan, seems to fall short of the divine and smacks of oversimplification and fear mongering.  Though I do not believe any one will be condemned to eternal punishment, and I view Jesus will offer me forgiveness in the end, I nonetheless fear judgement.  Why if I don't fear hell and know I will find forgiveness?  For the simple reason I don't want to face the guilt and shame for all of my sins in life, even if I will be forgiven in the end I have no doubt it will be a painful experience to see how my acts and thoughts have hurt others and see what a trail of sorrow my sins may have bore out.  Self forgiveness my be more difficult in light of full knowledge then divine forgiveness.
I recognize I am a bit of a heretic here but I think God loves all of us, he has no special people, and wants us all to grow into the souls we have the potential to be.  Like children we all grow at different rates and have unique gifts and challenges we face, the stubborn and the obedient alike will come to know, its just the stubborn will have a longer and more difficult time getting there.  As pointed out before, a God capable of creating the universe would not set up a system that would fail so many.

A side thought on free will; the only proof of free will is disobedience.  Thus I feel we do indeed have such for we do seem to disobey a lot, but like many an adoloescent, after a while we come to realize our father was right all along and while we proved our free will through disobedience, we gain the wisdom to see how foolish this is and that we only harm ourselves.  There is one school of thought that the parable of the prodigal son refers to humanity itself, and God is awaiting our return after our many mistakes have in the end given us insight and wisdom we might not have had if we never left home.

[NickHassan]

Hi cato,
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and at least you reciognise them as being based only on hopeful logic.
I urge you to seek the wonderful inner washing God provides and the peace following it that passes understanding.
You can and should know that the love of God makes us white as snow in His sight and no trace of sin remains.

[Shania]

Hey Cato!

Here is the thing  about the prodigal son- he returned.  He made the decision to go back- he didn't care how humbling it would be, he didn't care if he had to be a servant- just as long as he could go back to his Father's house.  He recognized the filth that he was in and he turned back- repented.

Luke 15:13-24

13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

[This is the kind of food that you get from the world… and he couldn't even get that.  He was empty.]

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20 So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off , his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 “The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'  [repentance]

22 “But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.
NIV

“Dead and alive again”- the father knew that the son was not physically dead… When you are in sin, you are dead.  There is no life in you and you are condemned- you are as good as dead.  But now he is alive- resurrection from the dead.  The old man is gone- the new man is put on.  Salvation.

Here are just a few verses about death and resurrection:

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NIV

John 5:21
21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
NIV

John 5:24-26
25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
NIV

Rom 8:12-14
13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
NIV

Eph 2:3-5
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved.
NIV

Eph 5:14

“Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead ,
and Christ will shine on you.”
NIV

Phil 3:10-11
10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead .
NIV

Col 1:18
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead , so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
NIV

Col 2:13-14

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
NIV

You see, if you want to find meaning to parables, you have to look at the teachings found in scripture.  The parables illustrate the teachings.  You cannot apply meaning to parables that are not based on these teachings.

Repentance is required for the resurrection- check out the repentance thread for this one, as I am trying not to make my post 2 miles long

This is not just for Cato, but for everyone.

Mal 3:7
7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me , and I will return to you,” says the LORD Almighty.
NIV

Neh 1:9
9 but if you return to me and obey my commands, then even if your exiled people are at the farthest horizon, I will gather them from there and bring them to the place I have chosen as a dwelling for my Name.'
NIV

[chosenone]

THE DOINGS OF GOD

Our salvation is not out of ourselves. We do not possess it because we have done this or that in order to acquire it. Consequently, boasting is debarred (Rom.3:27). This is because we are God’s achievement. “For His achievement are we” (Eph.2: 10a). We are saved because we are God’s achievement. It is just that simple and this is fully the truth.
The word “achievement,” is poiˆma (DO-effect). We are the product of God’s doings. It is only unbelief that will seek to modify this or to explain it away. This unbelief is due to the deceptive influences of the worldly philosophy known as free will. We do not care for the fact that we ourselves, who effect much evil and some good, are the product of God’s own doings.
God, however, is able to operate in us, to will and to work for the sake of His delight (Phil.2:13), so that we think of these matters continually, and in a profitable and uplifting way. As those who are God’s achievement, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, ones which God Himself prepared beforehand, there is no possibility but that we should be walking in them. Indeed, since the subjunctive, “should,” in this case, points us only to God, the good works to which it refers are just as certain to be accomplished as would be the case had the indicative “shall” been used instead.
May God grant us a foretaste of the superabundant and transcendent good works of the future in a measure of good works even now, even if the best of these should be totally eclipsed when compared to our labors to come, during the oncoming eons, when we are conformed to the image of God’s Son and seated together among the celestials (Rom.8:29; Eph.2:6).
“Lest anyone should be boasting”—lest we ourselves should artfully contrive some way to look to and lean upon the flesh—we would glory only in God and in His Christ. We are saved in grace through faith, faith being an assumption, based upon God’s own word, concerning what is already true prior to and apart from our conviction in it. “For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them” (Eph.2:10).

Blessings

[Author]

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