Universal Salvation

[NickHassan]

Hi CO,
Are you among the US Paul speaks of?

1Cor8
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[chosenone]

Hi Nick, Yes!

Blessings.

[NickHassan]

Hi CO,
Are the godless heathen nations also among the US?

[chosenone]

All those that God has chosen are, and all will be at the consummation, the creation completed, when God will be All in all.

Blessings.

[NickHassan]

Hi CO,
So some are not chosen.
What is their fate?

[chosenone]

I think you misunderstood me, all wil be chosen at the consummation. All will be saved.

Blessings.

[NickHassan]

Hi kj,
Just like magic?
So all this pain has been unnecessary and it is eat drink and be merry?

[chosenone]

Hi Nick,
For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is NOT OUT OF YOU; it is God's approach present, not out of works, lest anyone should be boasting. For HIS ACHIEVMENT ARE WE, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. (Eph.2:8-10)

(We won't be eating drinking and making merry, or putting our feet up)

Blessings.

[NickHassan]

Hi CO,
So if all are saved and there are no advantages in being reborn into God's family then put your feet up. Personally I think such ideas are eyewash.

[chosenone]

Hi Nick,
Yes Nick, there are advantages to earning your own salvation, Jesus would not have needed to go through his sacrifcial death, no need if you can do it all yourself. How can you boast if God does it all? How can you feel so superior unless you can puff yourself up and say “I did it, see how clever I am, a lot smarter than my sinning brothers, poor souls”. Yes Nick, you may just have something there.
Keep up the good work.

Blessings. (just a sinner saved by grace)

[chosenone]

Hi again Nick,
Just a note to say that after I reread my previous post, I may have sounded a bit sarcastic, please accept my appologies, I don't mean to make fun of you, I think I may have gotten a bit carried away. Please forgive me.

Blessings.

[NickHassan]

Hi CO,
So long as you teach the truth who cares.
But you do not seem to but rather an odd gnostic idea
that God is running a puppet show and does require anything of man.

[chosenone]

Hi Nick,
See Ephesians 1:11 …according to the purpose of the One (God) Who is operating ALL in accord with the council of HIS WILL,…
How can any scripture be more descriptive of what God is doing? He is in complete control!
If I may use my own analogy:- God is the author, we (and the whole creation) are the cast, and the whole world a stage. Remember, this analogy is my comment, not scripture, so don't refer to it as such.

Blessings.

[Shania]

I admit to not reading all of these posts, so if I double quote scripture, please forgive me:

Heb 10:26-28

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
NIV

Matt 7:13-14

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
NIV

Matt 7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
NIV

Matt 18:3
“I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
NIV

Matt 18:8-9
8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
NIV

Matt 19:17

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
NIV

Matt 23:13

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter , nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
NIV

Gen 1:1 – Luke 13:30
24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'

“But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

26 “Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'

27 “But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”
NIV

John 3:5-6

5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
NIV

Acts 14:22
“We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.
NIV

Heb 3:10-13
10 That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.'”

12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
NIV

Rev 21:27
27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
NIV

We must look at the whole context of scripture. Use clear passages to interpret unclear ones. If all will be saved, why do we need to preach? Why are we called to turn away from sin?

Do you know what the reign of the Heavens is? It is when He is reigning over you. Who are you serving? You see, in His kingdom, there will be no rebellion. Many people think that once you get to heaven you will magically be rid of the desire to rebel, but that is not scriptural. Satan and 1/3 of the angels proved that. Ladies and Gents, we are in a proving ground. Rememner the 5 foolish virgins? “I never knew you” They did not make it. What about the wicked servant who produced no fruit with what had been given him?

Why did Jesus say that He is the way, the truth, and the life? Why did he warn us like he did?

[chosenone]

Hi Shania,
Always enjoy your posts and opinion, I may not always agree on what you post, but this is ok, we all share our thoughts and we are not all in agreement, but enjoy our interaction. I have just posted a new post titled “God and Satan”. It is an artical from one of my favourite Christian websites, I would be pleased to hear your opinion on this. God bless.

Jerry.

[NickHassan]

Hi CO,
Eph 1
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

So these words do not apply to the God hating nations.
Being chosen, being adopted and trusting in Christ would seem to be essential prerequesites.
Grace and peace only come through the mediator between God and newly His chosen people, Christ Jesus.

[NickHassan]

Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 15 2008,11:40)

I think you misunderstood me, all wil be chosen at the consummation.  All will be saved. Blessings.

Hi CO,
So how does it work?
Some are chosen now
and at the end the rest get a “get out of jail free card”?

[NickHassan]

Hi CO,
Will there be compensation for time spent in Hades?

[chosenone]

Hi Nick,
These words apply to all mankind. God will reconcile all mankind to himself, through the blood of Christ, who died for all mankind, not for just some. God is not finished yet, even those having died denying Christ, at the conssumation will eventually be saved. I am including an article titled “The savation of the unbeliever”, It's quite a lengthly article, so I hope you will not mind me posting you this. If you or anyone may object to the posting of an article of such length please let me know and I wiil not do it again.
I'll be pleased if you or anyone else will comment on this article.

God Bless.

The Living God

THE SALVATION OF THE UNBELIEVER
AS GOD is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe (1 Tim.4:10), we may confidently rest on one grand and glorious foundation truth–that all salvation is of God, and neither believer nor unbeliever has any part in it. On the one hand this assures us of the possibility of saving all men, for God alone is able, and, on the other, it bars out all human schemes for their restoration, whether by works, or suffering, by giving them a second chance, or by any cause whatever which originates in man. Those who believe are saved by His grace (Rom.4:16); those who do not believe are saved through His judgments, but in both it is He alone Who is Saviour.
Faith is but the channel of grace; it does not produce salvation. Judgment is but a means He uses, a process which leads to the opening of the unbeliever’s eyes. It does not remove his guilt or cleanse a single sin. That is done wholly and solely by the blood of Christ. Every effort to bring about the ultimate salvation of all through the purgatorial or penitential sufferings of the sinner is a denial of this great truth. Judgments do not save, but the God Who judges is also the Saviour, and all His dealings with mankind are governed by the grand goal which He has set before Him–to become All in all His creatures.
In setting forth the process by means of which God brings the unbeliever back to Himself we must remember that few believers are able to analyze the method used in their own salvation. Now, if we are not able to explain our own experience, how shall we understand His method with others? Yet, strange as it may seem, God’s dealings with the unbeliever are much more easily apprehended than His way with us. The very simplicity of faith baffles us. Most theological systems seek to base belief on evidence, and speak of “Christian evidences” as the foundation of the believer’s salvation. This is, rather, the method He uses in the deliverance of the unbeliever.

FAITH AND EVIDENCES

The case of Thomas is an example of the overpowering force of evidence where faith is wanting (John 20:26-29). No man can long withstand the testimony of his senses, even when (unlike Thomas) his interests may be opposed.
The tangible proofs given to support the proclamation of the kingdom affords a rich field for the study of the effect of evidence on the human heart. The unbeliever will be saved by sight. He will yield to the force of facts. He will be convinced by logic. What evidence is most suited for this purpose? In our Lord’s ministry we can see both the helps and the hindrances offered by the senses. The consideration of a few cases will reveal what most moves men and what makes them obstinate.
The rich young man was hindered by his possessions. The Samaritans were helped by the Lord’s words. The resurrection of Lazarus led many Jews to rely on His acts. These illustrate God’s method in the judgment of the unbeliever. He removes hindrances–no earthly acquisitions interfere with the decisions of the heart, for both heaven and earth flee from the face of Him Who sits on the throne. He works the greatest possible miracle, by raising them from the dead. He reads the inmost secret of their hearts. He appears in their very presence in soul-dismaying splendor. They cannot doubt His power or His perfections, and no motive remains to lead them to deceive themselves.
The judgment of unbelievers takes place in the interval between the passing of this present earth and the creation of the new. Every tie which bound them to the earth has been burned up. They are the subjects of the most astounding miracle ever wrought, having been raised from the dead. They are in the presence of the Divine Majesty. Their secrets are bared to His awful gaze. The character of their judgment, being adjusted to their acts, not simply as to severity but so as to correct them, will reveal God’s purpose to save and reconcile them to Himself. This, followed by their death in the lake of fire and subsequent vivification at the consummation, is the basis of their reconciliation through the blood of the cross (Col.1:20).
The excuses offered by those who were bidden to the great supper (Luke 14:18) are all removed before the great white throne. No fields or oxen or wives will intrude between the spirit and the great Judge.
In the judgment day God will judge the hidden things of humanity (Rom.2:16). We are prone to consider this a mere exhibition of His omniscience, to facilitate the trial of the sinner and to insure his condemnation. But more than this, it cannot but have a most powerful effect on the unbeliever’s attitude toward Christ. What was it that impressed the woman of Samaria (John 4:19,29)? It was His knowledge of her hidden secrets. As a result we read that many of the Samaritans of that city believe in Him because of the woman’s word that He told her all that she had done (John 4:39).
The blessed results achieved by His exposure of the woman at Sychar’s spring will be multiplied by many millions at the great white throne. There is nothing hidden that shall not be manifested (Matt.10:26). As in Corinth, the hidden things of the unbeliever’s heart become apparent, and, falling on his face, he will worship God (1 Cor.14:25).
Perhaps no miracle wrought by our Lord and His apostles created a stronger conviction than that of raising the dead. When Lazarus was raised many of the rulers believed, and the chief priests were concerned lest all should believe on Him because of this sign (John 11:45,48). When Peter raised Dorcas it also was used to convince many who believed on the Lord. Can we imagine what conviction it must have brought to Lazarus and to Dorcas themselves, if they should have had the slightest tendency to doubt? Could there have been any stronger proof of divine power than that their very life had come back to them at the bidding of One Who is stronger than death? In the process of winning the unbeliever we judge their resurrection and final vivification to be ample to account for salvation and reconciliation entering their lives.

SAUL OF TARSUS

The apostle Paul’s case is of surpassing significance in its bearing on the salvation of unbelievers. He was the foremost of sinners, and it cannot be denied that, among men, there was no case quite as desperate as his. All question as to God’s ability to save vanishes in the light of his call on the Damascus road. The miraculous means employed in his case surely would suffice for every one of God’s enemies. And who will deny, on sober reflection, that the appalling power and glory of the august judgment session into which the unbeliever is ushered by his resurrection will be unutterably more impressive?
The apostle’s vision passed. He came back to a scene where all was as before. He alone had changed. But the unbeliever sees the power and presence of God not only in his own deliverance from death, but in all around him. The vision does not vanish. The divine presence abides.

GOD AS JUDGE

The change which eventuates in the ultimate salvation of the unbeliever is wrought, not only by his resurrection, but by the august judgment session, when he stands in the presence of Christ, with all his unbelief swept away
by the awful realization of His power and the justice of His throne. We are asked, Is it possible for them to repent? Rather, we would like to know, Is it possible for them not to repent, or change their minds? We cannot conceive an unrepentant sinner before the great white throne.
God’s thoughts and man’s imaginations are nowhere more at variance than on the subject of judgment, or punishment. God is love; man is hate. David was wise when he was given the choice of fleeing before his enemies or falling into the hand of Yahweh. He uttered a great truth when he exclaimed “Let us fall, I pray, into the hand of Yahweh, for His compassions are abundant; but let me not fall into the hand of humanity.” And surely his choice was vindicated, for when the messenger was stretching out his hand in destruction toward Jerusalem, Yahweh showed Himself merciful, and said, “Enough, now hold back your hand” (2 Sam.24:10-16).

NINEVEH

Jonah went through the streets of Nineveh, crying: “Forty days more and Nineveh shall be overturned!” (Jonah 3:4). But God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and He regretted the evil He said He would do unto them. “And He did it not” (Jonah 3:10). And what did Jonah do? Was he not pleased at the success of his mission? Did he not glory in the character of His God? Alas! he was like the many today. Like Jonah, they imagine that God has a streak of hate in His character and that He wanted to destroy Nineveh to give it exercise. But He had an object in threatening its destruction. Now that they repented and the object was attained, why should He belie His character and destroy them from sheer vindictiveness? Jonah’s God was a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of much benignity, and regretting of the evil which He had threatened (Jonah 4:2).

DESTRUCTION

The thought that the resurrection and judgment of the unbeliever is only a prelude to his final “destruction” in the lake of fire must be judged by its moral effect, for it has no support whatever in the Scriptures. In the first place “destruction” (by which annihilation or extinction of being is intended), is never used of the lake of fire or of the second death. It is always used of the sinner before his resurrection at the great white throne. Those who are “destroyed” in Gehenna will be there. Those who “perished” in the wilderness and at the flood will be raised. “Destruction” is never annihilation. It never precludes resurrection and salvation. Indeed, it is a necessary precursor of salvation. The Lord came to seek and to save the “destroyed” (lost). So that, even if there were a single passage telling us that the unbeliever is “destroyed” in the second death (which there is not) we would still have every reason to believe God when He assured us that all who are dying in Adam shall be made alive in Christ (1 Cor.15:22).
Let no one suppose that we plead for the repeal of God’s word regarding the doom of the unbeliever. Far from it. But we do plead for the removal of those harsh, human perversions of His word, which seek to make Him a man like ourselves, hateful and hating one another, vindictive and vicious in our views of the so-called “penalties” of sin. We plead for a revision of our vocabulary on this important theme.
The terms destroy and destruction are so often used of irrecoverable ruin that a few examples will be given to show how far this is from the truth. The rendering “lost” is always the translation of the word for destroy. It would be the utmost folly for the Son of Mankind to seek, much less to save those who are annihilated. The lost sheep and the lost coin and the lost prodigal all had been destroyed, yet all were found and saved. Were the whole world lost or destroyed in the lake of fire, that would be no hindrance to salvation. Rather, it would be the very sphere in which alone salvation can operate. Christ cannot save anyone unless first he is destroyed, or lost.

GOD IS THE SAVIOUR

Such is the salvation of the unbeliever. It is not only in absolute accord with every passage in the word of God, but in utmost harmony with the God Who is revealed through that word. How can anyone who truly loves Him rest satisfied with less than this, the only true, the only scriptural solution?
Let those who are fond of reasoning about the destiny of the universe accept their own premises and follow them out logically and the inevitable conclusion will be a universal reconciliation. Try it and see. All will acknowledge these premises:

God is love, therefore
God is omnipotent, therefore

God is not love if He will not do all He can for His creatures, neither is He omnipotent if He is unable to save them. Both revelation and reason are arrayed against the false delusion of unending torment for the unbeliever. It degrades the sacrifice of Christ to a mere attempt to remedy an evil which it cannot cure. O, my brethren, why do you limit His love, why do you paralyze His power? Is the Christ Who saved you capable of completing His work by saving all like you? Or, if He can, why will He not?
Confess that this terrible doctrine cannot but lead you to doubt His perfections. It brings you up to a blank wall, to a pit of dense darkness. But the blessed truth opens up a glorious vista flooded with the love light of God.

THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD

But, we are told, God’s justice demands judgment. There is truth in this. But if God’s justice must be displayed at the expense of His love, the extinction of the unbeliever in the lake of fire, far from forever removing an eyesore from the universe, places a blot upon His character which eternity itself can never erase. If we do not doubt His willingness to save them, then we must acknowledge His inability. If we cannot question His power, then we must limit His love, and then we endanger the very foundation on which all eternal bliss must be established.
But we do not need to rest on reason. At best, it is usually the refuge of unbelief. God has spoken, and real reason rests on His revelation. He is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe. God give us grace to glory in such a God!
In the opening chapters of Romans Paul lays the foundation on which God’s just judgment is based. He closes his indictment of mankind with these words: “. . . God’s just statute, that such as are committing them are deserving of death . . .” (Rom.1:32). As the first death cannot be the effect of any judicial procedure on God’s part, it is evident that the death penalty awaits all who come into the judgment. Whatever may be the variety and degree of the tribulation and anguish meted out to each, one common end awaits them all–the second death.

VIVIFIED IN CHRIST

But, some will ask, if they were condemned to death, how can they be raised again? What right have they to the grace and life that will be their portion? We answer, none. They will have no more claim on the ecstatic bliss of that unending day than I or you, or any believer! What right have we? None at all. But in Christ we have a perfect title to every favor. So it will be with the unbeliever. It is not written that “Even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also shall all be vivified,” but “thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified” (1 Cor.15:22). Adam’s death involves all, irrespective of their deserts. Christ’s life extends to all, apart from their personal merits.
And here is where the unbeliever learns to love God. The judgment has exposed his own unworthiness. The grace of vivification will illumine his heart with the love of God in Christ. Then shall be fulfilled God’s universal goal:

“. . . to Me will bow every knee,
And every tongue will be
acclaiming God.”

This is the method He will use to bend the stubborn knees. He will not use physical force but moral suas
ion. Neither will He wring out a confession of sin from every tongue. The Greek word as here used means acclaim, which involves a complete acknowledgment and acquiescence in the divine will.
The crowning and conclusive exhibition of God’s power and love toward the unbeliever awaits the consummation. The eons are past. All sin is banished. Evil is no more. The Son of God has nearly completed His mediatorial work. All the living are in perfect accord with God. Nothing remains but the conquest of death and the reconciliation of its denizens. It is the only enemy left in all God’s universe. Then, and not till then will the vast concourse of mankind emerge from the domain of death never to enter it again. Then death will be despoiled, the last enemy laid low. Then shall all awake to live in the light and love of Him Who will have become the Saviour of all mankind.

A. E. Knoch

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This publication may be reproduced for personal use
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[Samuel]

I haven't read the whole post either…

But going by the topic of discussion, I do have a few things to input.

It is of course GODS will that all should be saved and not perish.
However, the bible clearly states to us that not all will do this.

Just like in basic training for example…I remember the first week I was there. The drill sergeant told us to look around at the other 50 or so soldiers that were standing around us. He told us that we were not all going to make it. That he would like for us all to make it, but that is just not going to be the case. By the time we graduate there would only be about 30 of us.

Guess what?

He was so right…I did not think he was. I was really naive at the time …I thought they would just pass everyone just because I thought the Army needed “Bullet-Stoppers”.

So, this is just a simple modern day example of how not everyone is going to make it:

Matthew 7
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Now again, we could argue of things that the bible states back and forth. Which again, I would strongly advise against.

Moreover, we also have to remember that we are created in the image of the father. It is that very thing that I believe is encoded in our creation where by we just “Know” that there is a GOD. When you get ready to die you know you are getting ready to go somewhere …even if you don't think you believe in GOD you still feel like there is more to this life then this.

Because there is a GOD and subconsciously through your soul you know it.

I believe that by default we are meant to love other humans and other people even if we have a spirit that Satan has possessed us with…we were still made to love…not hate.

This is why we want to rationalize that no one will be destroyed.
That everyone is going to make it. Even so, it might be what we want just as it is what GOD wants. Although, it is not what will come to pass…we have already been told. That two will be in the field and one will be left. This statement alone clearly states that not everyone is going to make it. There are tons more other versus in the bible that state this very same thing.

This hateful spirit that is in the world if a device of Satan. GOD spirit is a spirit of love…even when he is punishing you.
Do you remember getting a belt whoopin' from you dad when you were younger and he would say something like, “This hurts me, more than it hurts you”, or “I'm only doing this cause I love you”?

Satan uses this hateful spirit to employ you against GOD. To point out to you well if GOD was like this then he wouldn't do that. That is Satan, he is a liar and a deceiver the truth is not in him! Nor will it ever be. He comes to destroy and to kill. To rob and steal. That is what he wants you to think.

DO NOT LISTEN TO HIM! please don't.

He is lying to you. You have to tell him to get behind you, that he that is in you is greater then he that is in the world.

Try all the spirits to see if they are of GOD.

Just some things to think on.

[Author]

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