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Nick, the Roman Catholic church believes in the existence of God…. therefore should we/you deny the existence of God?
blessings
Hi e,
Hoorah,
That is the first plank of salvation.
Mind you the demons also believe.But do they fear God enough to treat the Word of God with utmost respect, and not speculate about the nature of God and then teach those speculations?
Trinity was not taught by Jesus or the prophets and apostles yet men feel brave enough to grandly state the nature of God is triune!
Stand well away from those who dare to challenge God in such ways.
Quote (epistemaniac @ June 08 2006,02:05) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2006,00:35) Hi e,
I agree.
You may not regard yourself as catholic but those are her teachings you espouse here.Indeed the Roman worldly government did hijack the church and the Emperor organised and supervised the early councils at which changes to the true doctrines occurred.
Are you happy that this spiritual adultery and worldly influence did not lead that church into apostasy?
not really Nick, I am “espousing” the full counsel of God, the Trinity is biblical….. the Roman Catholic church is not wrong about everything… so simply saying that the Roman Catholic church believes x, y or z, it hardly follows that x, y or z is therefore automatically wrong. This is to commit the Genetic Fallacy; to say that something is automatically false based on its origin is simply irrational.I am aware that there were lots of political machinations going on in the early church… but you know what…? this same environment is what settled which books of the Bible are canonical…. so if God could lead the church in spite of all the sin in order to determine a set of biblical books that you accept, so too can the church systemize the biblical teaching regarding God's nature and simply say what the Bible itself says about God, and then to use the terminology “Trinity” to describe God…. if you accept one, it is irrational to deny the other…
blessings
Hi e,
Try the CANON thread.You say you now have the FULL COUNSEL of God. Has God continued to add to scriptural truth outside of the bible? Funny because the Spirit is said by Jesus not to speak on his own accord but to take us back to Jesus's teachings. And we are warned in 2 John to avoid those who go beyond the teaching of Christ. And to add to Revelation is said to be highly dangerous.
So where do you stand here?
Quote (Scripture Seeker @ June 07 2006,11:16) So you say the Holy Spirit is not a person. Here are FORTY PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES!
1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as “He”: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Is the Creator: Job 33:4.So the Son sends the Father? Oh really?
Joh 16:7 But I TELL YOU THE TRUTH: it is expedient to you that I go. For if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you: but if I go, I WILL SEND HIM TO YOU.
So if the Holy Spirit is the Father who does the Father hear to know what to speak?
Joh 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL TRUTH. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things SOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, he SHALL SPEAK. And the things that are to come, he shall shew you.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: because he shall receive of mine and shall shew it to you.So the Father intercedes to himself?
Rom 8:26 Likewise, the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For, we know not what we should pray for as we ought: BUT THE SPIRIT HIMSELF ASKETH FOR US WITH UNSPEAKABLE GROANINGS,
What does another comforter mean? Is it another Father?
Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you ANOTHER PARACLETE, that he may abide with you for ever:
The word of God comes forth from God just as the Holy Spirit also comes forth from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father and am come into the world: again I leave the world and I go to the Father.
Joh 16:29 His disciples say to him: Behold, now thou speakest plainly and speakest no proverb.
Joh 16:30 Now we know that thou knowest all things and thou needest not that any man should ask thee. BY THIS WE BELIEVE THAT THOU CAMEST FORTH FROM GOD.
Joh 16:31 JESUS ANSWERED THEM: DO YOU NOW BELIEVE?COMPARE
Joh 15:26 But when the PARACLETE COMETH, whom I WILL SEND you FROM THE FATHER, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth FROM THE FATHER, he shall give testimony of me.
So the Holy Spirit comes forth from God and is God but the Son comes forth from God and is not God. Sorry but it sounds like creation judging the creator?
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens, GOD HIMSELF THAT FORMED THE EARTH, AND MADE IT, THE VERY MAKER THEREOF: he did not create it in vain: he formed it to be inhabited. I AM THE LORD, AND THERE IS NO OTHER.
There is only ONE CREATOR this is unity.
God Bless you
Great post Scripture Seeker! Many, many good points raised…..I wonder how many will be addressed?……Hi,
Is it not amazing that the finger of God has so many personal attributes?
It shows how little we understand about God!Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2006,02:26) Hi e,
Hoorah,
That is the first plank of salvation.
Mind you the demons also believe.But do they fear God enough to treat the Word of God with utmost respect, and not speculate about the nature of God and then teach those speculations?
Trinity was not taught by Jesus or the prophets and apostles yet men feel brave enough to grandly state the nature of God is triune!
Stand well away from those who dare to challenge God in such ways.
just answer the question Nick… don't filibuster… don't lay out red herrings… simply answer the original question… if you can't or won't… well, that alone will speak volumes, won't it? The point being made is this: Just because Rome believes something, it does not follow that it is automatically wrong.And don't mistake this point for being more than it is. I am not defending Rome. I consider Rome to be an apostate body that teaches a false gospel. I am not defending Rome in any sense, other then to say that simply because they believe something to b e true, it is therefore false. Therefore, you can't dismiss a given belief (the Trinity) simply because Rome believes it, so any attempts at poisoning the well, any guilty by association attempts…. simply fail.
Blessings,
Kenblessings
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2006,02:28) Quote (epistemaniac @ June 08 2006,02:05) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2006,00:35) Hi e,
I agree.
You may not regard yourself as catholic but those are her teachings you espouse here.Indeed the Roman worldly government did hijack the church and the Emperor organised and supervised the early councils at which changes to the true doctrines occurred.
Are you happy that this spiritual adultery and worldly influence did not lead that church into apostasy?
not really Nick, I am “espousing” the full counsel of God, the Trinity is biblical….. the Roman Catholic church is not wrong about everything… so simply saying that the Roman Catholic church believes x, y or z, it hardly follows that x, y or z is therefore automatically wrong. This is to commit the Genetic Fallacy; to say that something is automatically false based on its origin is simply irrational.I am aware that there were lots of political machinations going on in the early church… but you know what…? this same environment is what settled which books of the Bible are canonical…. so if God could lead the church in spite of all the sin in order to determine a set of biblical books that you accept, so too can the church systemize the biblical teaching regarding God's nature and simply say what the Bible itself says about God, and then to use the terminology “Trinity” to describe God…. if you accept one, it is irrational to deny the other…
blessings
Hi e,
Try the CANON thread.You say you now have the FULL COUNSEL of God. Has God continued to add to scriptural truth outside of the bible? Funny because the Spirit is said by Jesus not to speak on his own accord but to take us back to Jesus's teachings. And we are warned in 2 John to avoid those who go beyond the teaching of Christ. And to add to Revelation is said to be highly dangerous.
So where do you stand here?
Nick, I said that I am simply “espousing” the full counsel of God, this means, the full orbed understanding of the entire word of God as given in the 66 canonical books of the Bible. The doctrine of the Trinity does not change this in the slightest.The Trinity simply cannot be denied for the simplistic and rather shallow excuse that the word itself does not appear in the Bible. I hope you aren't pursuing that argument here, are you Nick? If so, then perhaps you can produce a Scripture that says, using just those words, we will have 66 books in our canonical Bibles? As soon as you can do that, or produce a Scripture that says “thou shalt only use words found in the Bible to define Scriptural doctrines”…. which would really mean that we could only use Hebrew, Aramaic or Koine Greek words to discuss Scriptural teachings….. then I will give heed to such arguments.
blessings
True. To be extreme about the concept we could say that “even liars tell the truth sometimes”. We also know that a broken clock is correct twice a day.
But the Roman Catholic church treats the Trinity as a foundational doctrine. Yet it is not even taught in scripture. So it is not because the Roman Catholics belief in the Trinity that makes it wrong, it is wrong because scripture teaches in opposition to a triune God and says that there is but one God the Father.
Of course we can be one with God, but I would never be so arrogant to say that I was that God because I was one with him. Yet Trinitarians teach this with regards to Christ do they not?
Unity is a word applied to plurality. It is like saying, plurality that works together as if it was one thing.
Unity as far as I know is not applied to one thing because it is by very definition one which is even stronger in meaning than unity which can be compromised. It's like saying that God is godly. God of course is the source of all godliness, so to say that the source is a recipient is kind of rediculous.
Hi e.
The most important belief in the bible is that there is a God. As you say catholicism recognises there is a God. First base secure.
The Second most important is that Jesus Christ, the messiah, is the Son of God. Here is the problem.Catholicism and fellow travelling trinity theorists cannot get past first base.
They call Him the Son of God but do not agree that he is what that title says.
Hi Oxy,
Jesus was one with His Father.
But that unity was agreed and not so that he was never separate as a son of God.Hi,
Was Eve in Adam as a rib?
Were they united?
But was not their unity more meaningful when they had become separate?
Eph 5.31
” 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.”
Were they only then able to love one another?
Jn 3.35
“The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.”God begat a Son. [Ps 2]
God sent His beloved monogenes Son into the world.
They loved one another and were in perfect unity with one another.
You cannot have love and unity without first being separate.
Hi,
“The Father
AND
I [ie two]
Are One”Not one in being but two beings in eternal unity in the Spirit and in will from the Jordan.
Hi,
The unity that God developed with His Son
is the same as the unity we should develop with one another.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 24 2006,02:43) Hi,
The unity that God developed with His Son
is the same as the unity we should develop with one another.
I wholeheartedly agree, but I feel the best way to develop this unity for us is by drawing closer to the Father. Until we do we will be focus on ourselves and see everything through our understanding, where as by Love (the kind God supplies) we will judge all things by our concern for others, giving preference in all things.Scripture is clear that there are sins which do not lead to death and we have the ability to pray for the forgiveness for others in this area. I believe our problem is we lump everything into the mortal sin category and write people off instead of praying for their misconceptions, misunderstandings, wrong beliefs, etc. and without truly considering if we could be the one who is wrong.
Harmony of scriptures is our only test if we are in truth and does any of us believe they have all truth? Thank God, salvation is not based on having all truth but on His grace and mercy. All God requires of us is to honestly seek and in doing so the Holy Spirit can guide us into all truth.
My opinion
WmQuote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 24 2006,21:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 24 2006,02:43) Hi,
The unity that God developed with His Son
is the same as the unity we should develop with one another.
I wholeheartedly agree, but I feel the best way to develop this unity for us is by drawing closer to the Father. Until we do we will be focus on ourselves and see everything through our understanding, where as by Love (the kind God supplies) we will judge all things by our concern for others, giving preference in all things.
…My opinion
Wm
A wellspring of blessing, ST.The Lord has been showing me how self centered I am. I've always worked at having patience, generosity, putting others first, praying for others, caring for others, etc… but the Lord has shown me I've only been emulating the outward signs of true Godliness. To go the next step I need to die to self in a way beyond what I've been doing (more than just the daily crucifying of the flesh). I could really use everyone's prayers.
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