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June 6, 2006 at 10:31 pm#14608

NickHassan

Participant

Hi ss,
Yes the most important form of unity.

Chosen unity.

Not natural unity as with a branch on a vine even, but the unity by humbled choice.

One being, with a will of his own and life in himself who chooses to serve another being, the Gardener.

June 6, 2006 at 10:59 pm#14615

Cubes

Participant

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ June 07 2006,04:10)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2006,23:03)

Hi ss,
So who is the being who was WITH the Father. This fact is recorded at least three times in scripture. If you say it was Jesus, and I agree, in what way can a being be WITH another being and remain part of that being?

Hi Nick,

Could it be Like we have a Body Spirit and Soul?

1Th 5:21 But prove all things: hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 From all appearance of evil refrain yourselves.
1Th 5:23 And may the God of peace himself sanctify you in all things: that YOUR WHOLE SPIRIT AND SOUL AND BODY may be preserved blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless

Hi SS,

If so, then shouldn't your spirit be able to raise your body from the dead? If that were to happen, it would simply be said that you raised yourself from the dead. No one would go to the trouble of saying that your spirit raised your soul any more than you would say you are sitting with your soul beside you today. You are you.

How is your soul seated at the right hand of your spirit or body, etc?
Why do we not describe you as three in one but just you?
How is it you do not assign different tasks to your different “persons” but it is yourself with all the sum total of you that gets anything done when you do it?

How is it that Jesus appears before God?
How is it he mediates between two parties, ourselves and the other party, namely GOD? etc?
How is he heir of what is his to begin with?

Unanswered Questions, unanswered questions, holes, holes. It doesn't fit together, it doesn't fit together. scripture broken, scripture broken.

June 6, 2006 at 11:11 pm#14616

Scripture Seeker

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2006,23:31)

Hi ss,
Yes the most important form of unity.

Chosen unity.

Not natural unity as with a branch on a vine even, but the unity by humbled choice.

One being, with a will of his own and life in himself who chooses to serve the gardener.

Hi Nick,

These are your own words, if you can provide Gods words then I could try and understand where you are coming from.

The unity is revealed here!

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and THE WORD WAS WITH GOD: and THE WORD WAS GOD.

This explains unity not mans words! There is not a true little God and a Big God there is one God. The Holy Spirit used James to make this crystal clear.

In whose form was Jesus before he took on flesh, explain this using the word of God. I believe the word is truth!

Do you believe Jesus was Spirit before he took flesh?

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Does the same not mean the same?

Did God not come in the flesh?

2Jo 1:7 For many seducers are gone out into the world who confess not that Jesus Christ is come IN the flesh. This is a seducer and an antichrist.

I know you believe Jesus came in the flesh but was this Jesus the God who humbled himself to take on flesh?

Yes the Father was also in him!

Where the Son is the Father and Holy Spirit are.
Where the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son are there also.

Does the clay try to separate its creator, read Genesis and try and separate them if you can.

God Bless

June 6, 2006 at 11:25 pm#14617

NickHassan

Participant

Hi ss,
Is the Son of God the Son of God?

Scripture separates the Father from the Son and scripture then shows their amazing agreement and unity of purpose, even the Spirit of the Father anointing and using the body of the Son, but not sameness of being. A son is separate from his father surely.

Jesus Christ came in the flesh according to scripture, not God. As you show to say otherwise in antichrist.

“the same was with God”
“He was in the beginning with God” NASB

This is not “sameness of being” but refers to the “same person” spoken of in the previous verse, the being of divine nature who was WITH GOD.

June 6, 2006 at 11:31 pm#14618

Scripture Seeker

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ June 06 2006,23:59)

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ June 07 2006,04:10)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2006,23:03)

Hi Nick,

Could it be Like we have a Body Spirit and Soul?

God Bless

Hi SS,

How is it that Jesus appears before God?
How is it he mediates between two parties, ourselves and the other party, namely GOD? etc?
How is he heir of what is his to begin with?

Unanswered Questions, unanswered questions, holes, holes. It doesn't fit together, it doesn't fit together. scripture broken, scripture broken.

Hi Cubes,

This was only an example of HUMAN unity. God’s word clearly shows the unity that the father and Son share, Jesus said the Father and I are ONE.

What does OF God and FROM God mean to you.

Was Jesus really in the flesh before he came from and of God.
Maybe you are up to the challenge of trying to separate the Father Son and Holy Spirit before Jesus took on flesh. I am awaiting Gods word and have already provided it.
Can you separate the Holy Spirit from the Father?

Who Raised Jesus From the Dead?
The Father
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead:

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven (whom he raised up from the dead), Jesus, who hath delivered us from the wrath to come.

The Son

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I MAY TAKE IT AGAIN.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself. And I have power to lay it down: and I HAVE POWER TO TAKE IT UP AGAIN. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them: Destroy this temple; and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP.

The Holy Spirit

Rom 8:11 And if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you; he that raised up Jesus Christ, from the dead shall quicken also your mortal bodies, because of his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Who Gives Us Words to Speak?

The Father
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

The Son

Luk 21:14 Lay it up therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before how you shall answer:
Luk 21:15 FOR I WILL GIVE YOU a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to resist and gainsay.

The Holy Spirit

Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, BUT THE HOLY GHOST.

Who Intercedes For Believers?

The Son intercedes for us.
Rom 8:27 And HE THAT SEARCHETH THE HEARTS KNOWETH what the Spirit desireth: because he asketh for the saints according to God.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that shall condemn? CHRIST JESUS that died: yea that is risen also again, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh INTERCESSION FOR US.
Heb 7:22 By so much is Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:25 Whereby he is able also to save for ever them that come to God by him; always living to MAKE INTERCESSION FOR US.
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. But if any man sin, WE HAVE AN ADVOCATE with the Father, Jesus Christ the just.

The Holy Spirit ALSO intercedes for us with unspeakable groaning.

Rom 8:26 Likewise, the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For, we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings,

Who is the Holy Spirit to you? If he is the Father why does he need to intercede for us?

Pray for me and show me Gods word, I have done the same for you.

Gotta go God Bless you.

June 7, 2006 at 2:49 am#14628

Is 1:18

Participant

Nice to see you're back e-man.

June 7, 2006 at 3:44 am#14630

david

Participant

Hello E. I don't think we've ever spoke. Hello. A couple pages ago, you stated:

Quote

He is called by many names, and to focus on the Son, and then incorporate the human sense of a father son relationship into this title is eisiogesis and poor exegesis, it is a very unbalanced hermeneutic.

It seems when someone has a problem understanding a little word like “son,” a word most 5 year olds have no problem understanding, one introduces words like “hermeneutic” and “eisiogesis.”

The Bible is meant to tell us about God and His Son.
If the Father/Son relationship is not how we are to understand their relationship, why did Jehovah choose to describe himself and Jesus that way? To confuse? To throw us off track? Does not God want us to know Him and His son? (John 17:3)
Why are they not referred to as twins, or brothers?
That would make it much easier to accept the trinity as Biblical.

Incorporating the human sense of Father and Son is not reading too much into the text. Those are the words chosen to describe them. Everyone knows what these words mean and imply. Dictionaries describe them rather simply.

Quote

errrr? what? I said the title was the Son's, not God the Father…. and that the title “the Son” was only one of Jesus' titles…. and to focus on just the one title is unbalanced, just as God the Father is called many names, and these names all describe a certain aspect of God's nature, Jehovah-jirah, the provider, etc etc…. and one must not isolate just one title and formulate their doctrine of God based on just one name or attribute, so too, one must not formulate their Christology based only on the one title “Son of God”.

here is what I was talking about:

You're absolutely right. Jesus has a number of titles and descriptions. They all tell us something about him.

Quote

ADAM: (1 Corinthians 15:45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

So Jesus was like Adam in this respect.

Quote

ADVOCATE: (1 John 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

He was an advocate or helper.

All these words mean what they always mean.

Elect “of” God. Christ “of” God. Word “of” God. Son “of” David. Son “of” God. Son “of” the Highest.
The word “of” is not hard to understand.
If you are the son of David, you are not David.

David.

Now, had I said:

“son of David,” would you have thought it was me, or my “son”?

June 7, 2006 at 6:56 am#14634

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ June 07 2006,00:31)

Quote (Cubes @ June 06 2006,23:59)

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ June 07 2006,04:10)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2006,23:03)

Hi Nick,

Could it be Like we have a Body Spirit and Soul?

God Bless

Hi SS,

How is it that Jesus appears before God?
How is it he mediates between two parties, ourselves and the other party, namely GOD? etc?
How is he heir of what is his to begin with?

Unanswered Questions, unanswered questions, holes, holes. It doesn't fit together, it doesn't fit together. scripture broken, scripture broken.

Hi Cubes,

This was only an example of HUMAN unity. God’s word clearly shows the unity that the father and Son share, Jesus said the Father and I are ONE.

What does OF God and FROM God mean to you.

Who Raised Jesus From the Dead?
The Father
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead:

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven (whom he raised up from the dead), Jesus, who hath delivered us from the wrath to come.

The Son

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them: Destroy this temple; and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP.

The Holy Spirit

Who Gives Us Words to Speak?

The Son

The Holy Spirit

Who Intercedes For Believers?

The Holy Spirit ALSO intercedes for us with unspeakable groaning.

Rom 8:26 Likewise, the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For, we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings,

Who is the Holy Spirit to you? If he is the Father why does he need to intercede for us?

Pray for me and show me Gods word, I have done the same for you.

Gotta go God Bless you.

Hi ss,
Those who do not know the anointing of the Messiah by God with His Own Spirit will always be fascinated by scriptures that show the Father doing His work by that Spirit through the Son, and will fall into the trap of believing the Son IS the God who anointed himself.

We do not separate the Father form His Spirit. It is those who developed the non biblical trinity idea that theorised that The Father's own Spirit is a separate person from the Father.

June 7, 2006 at 9:52 am#14636

Scripture Seeker

Participant

Quote (epistemaniac @ June 06 2006,21:00)

Quote

However the unity betwen the Father and the Son is not forever a unity of being. If it was then the Father has never had a Son.

Oh? And why is this? I see no reason why the Father and the Son could not have the same unity of being and yet still be called “the Son”. After all, “the Son” is just one way to describe Him, He is called by many names, and to focus on the Son, and then incorporate the human sense of a father son relationship into this title is eisiogesis and poor exegesis, it is a very unbalanced hermeneutic. One must take into account ALL the titles of Jesus, and based on all those titles, formulate a Christology and a Theology Proper. Once one takes into account the full counsel of God, then the Trinity emerges as the only way to reconcile the Scriptural witness.
Jesus is:

Realizing that there are those who teach otherwise… well… I would say this:
No surprises there, we are warned that false prophets will arise and attempt to deceive.
And this forum largely is an outreach to the world of false doctrine in so far as it denies the Trinity.
The only true unity is unity in the Spirit, but one must never compromise with false doctrine in order to achieve unity.
Many here (those that deny the Trinity) are not yet lovers of the Word in which the work of the Spirit is shown.
If they loved the Word and it's Author they would be searching for the door that it shows regarding the true doctrine of the Trinity.
Then if they had gone through the door they would be grasping for the Spirit, though the Bible says He is not far from us (Acts 17:27).
Then when they had learned to listen to and be led by the Spirit, and realized that God is triune in nature and every other god is a man made idol, if they would see the error of their ways, we could have true unity and fellowship.

As far as the “finger of God” goes, this is the Holy Spirit, the third member of the Trinity, a “person” just like the Son and Father. Don't blaspheme by saying or thinking anything less of Him, as if He is a mere “force” or something. If He can be grieved and lied to, He must be a person in the same sense that the Father and Son are, you can't grieve or lie to a “force”, unless of course, you have adopted George Lucas' New Age vision of what God is like, ie panentheism, then I suppose you could lie to the “force”, since the force is everything and everything is the force, ergo the force is god and god is the force. You guys haven't gone that far off the deep end, have you? 😉

did ya miss me?

blessings,
Ken

AMEN and Welcome!

June 7, 2006 at 10:16 am#14638

Scripture Seeker

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2006,07:56)

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ June 07 2006,00:31)

Quote (Cubes @ June 06 2006,23:59)

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ June 07 2006,04:10)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2006,23:03)

Hi Nick,

Could it be Like we have a Body Spirit and Soul?

God Bless

Hi SS,

How is it that Jesus appears before God?
How is it he mediates between two parties, ourselves and the other party, namely GOD? etc?
How is he heir of what is his to begin with?

Unanswered Questions, unanswered questions, holes, holes. It doesn't fit together, it doesn't fit together. scripture broken, scripture broken.

Hi Cubes,

This was only an example of HUMAN unity. God’s word clearly shows the unity that the father and Son share, Jesus said the Father and I are ONE.

What does OF God and FROM God mean to you.

Who Raised Jesus From the Dead?
The Father
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead:

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven (whom he raised up from the dead), Jesus, who hath delivered us from the wrath to come.

The Son

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them: Destroy this temple; and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP.

The Holy Spirit

Who Gives Us Words to Speak?

The Son

The Holy Spirit

Who Intercedes For Believers?

The Holy Spirit ALSO intercedes for us with unspeakable groaning.

Rom 8:26 Likewise, the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For, we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings,

Who is the Holy Spirit to you? If he is the Father why does he need to intercede for us?

Pray for me and show me Gods word, I have done the same for you.

Gotta go God Bless you.

We do not separate the Father form His Spirit. It is those who developed the non biblical trinity idea that theorised that The Father's own Spirit is a separate person from the Father.

Hi Nick,

So you say the Holy Spirit is not a person.

Here are FORTY PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES!

1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as “He”: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Ac
ts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Is the Creator: Job 33:4.

So the Son sends the Father? Oh really?

Joh 16:7 But I TELL YOU THE TRUTH: it is expedient to you that I go. For if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you: but if I go, I WILL SEND HIM TO YOU.

So if the Holy Spirit is the Father who does the Father hear to know what to speak?

Joh 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL TRUTH. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things SOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, he SHALL SPEAK. And the things that are to come, he shall shew you.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: because he shall receive of mine and shall shew it to you.

So the Father intercedes to himself?

Rom 8:26 Likewise, the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For, we know not what we should pray for as we ought: BUT THE SPIRIT HIMSELF ASKETH FOR US WITH UNSPEAKABLE GROANINGS,

What does another comforter mean? Is it another Father?

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you ANOTHER PARACLETE, that he may abide with you for ever:

The word of God comes forth from God just as the Holy Spirit also comes forth from God.

Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father and am come into the world: again I leave the world and I go to the Father.
Joh 16:29 His disciples say to him: Behold, now thou speakest plainly and speakest no proverb.
Joh 16:30 Now we know that thou knowest all things and thou needest not that any man should ask thee. BY THIS WE BELIEVE THAT THOU CAMEST FORTH FROM GOD.
Joh 16:31 JESUS ANSWERED THEM: DO YOU NOW BELIEVE?

COMPARE

Joh 15:26 But when the PARACLETE COMETH, whom I WILL SEND you FROM THE FATHER, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth FROM THE FATHER, he shall give testimony of me.

So the Holy Spirit comes forth from God and is God but the Son comes forth from God and is not God. Sorry but it sounds like creation judging the creator?

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens, GOD HIMSELF THAT FORMED THE EARTH, AND MADE IT, THE VERY MAKER THEREOF: he did not create it in vain: he formed it to be inhabited. I AM THE LORD, AND THERE IS NO OTHER.

There is only ONE CREATOR this is unity.

God Bless you

June 7, 2006 at 10:19 am#14639

NickHassan

Participant

Hi e,
So you agree the bible does not teach trinity but it
“emerges as a way to reconcile the scriptural witness”
So it is a human theological mechanism that is used to rationalise scripture?

Is scripture not meant to interpret itself,
comparing line with line and verse with verse?

Is it not the oddest thing that the nature of God Himself was left to men to devise an acceptable device in order to be intellectually grasped?

Or could men have stumbled over the stumbling stone and ended up with a concept that mocks God?

June 7, 2006 at 5:24 pm#14640

Cubes

Participant

Quote (epistemaniac @ June 07 2006,02:00)

Quote

However the unity betwen the Father and the Son is not forever a unity of being. If it was then the Father has never had a Son.

Hi E,

I am not sure I understand what you mean here. You are referring to Christ as the being of God, is that it? That creates a cobweb in my mind even though I know it's what the trinity is but to hear you express it again thus confuses me anew!

You are a son and possibly an heir of your parents.
No doubt, you have other relationships, responsibilities and so are probably a father, brother, employee or founder of a business etc. How do your other relationships which came later, invalidate your primary relationship with your parents as a Son, upon which all other benefits, relationships and titles derive? Why would you have to be your father to make any of it real?

My second question here is, are you a son of God really or is it just a title for you?

Quote

Please read Acts 5 in its entirety and you should find that the Holy Spirit that was lied to is none other than the Father and God of Christ Jesus. The Spirit is his, by which he gives us new life so as to make us his children as Christ is his first and only begotten Son. Hope that helps.

It is simple enough for little children to understand it, E. Kids know that their fathers and their brothers are not the same person or being. That they are not the same being as their siblings or parents.

June 7, 2006 at 8:26 pm#14644

Cubes

Participant

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ June 07 2006,05:31)

Hi Cubes,

This was only an example of HUMAN unity. God’s word clearly shows the unity that the father and Son share, Jesus said the Father and I are ONE.

Hello SS,

Hope you are well as is your family.

I was set to respond to your post item by item, and perhaps I shall, but I came across this passage and felt to respond to your post with it rather.

Please note that this was what THE APOSTLES THEMSELVES were preaching after Jesus had ascended. This was what the Father was blessing and confirming with miracles. Please let us lay aside contradicting beliefs so that we shall be one indeed.

Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who *by the mouth of Your servant David have said:

'Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
26 The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.'*

27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”
31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. 33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Please note here that Jesus came and was born as the Son of God, fulfilled his mission, was crucified, died, buried, resurrected, ascended into heaven. What did the Apostles have to say about him?
What did they want us to know? That he is God AlmightY? The Father? No, brother. Please read it again, and many other such passages.

As to the scripture of “I and my Father are one.” Even that is addressed in this passage.

May the God of peace bless you and lead you and all who seek him into his truth. May you know his son, the Prince of Peace. And that is my prayer for you.

June 7, 2006 at 9:37 pm#14647

Woutlaw

Participant

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ June 06 2006,22:48)

Hi Nick,
You have a great love for Gods word and this is great.

But sorry I have to disagree, we can all pick and choose scriptures that show Jesus the WORD of God becoming flesh and humbling himself to take every single sin away. These arguments are weak because they DON'T look at Jesus before he humbled.

Just one of many classic examples

Heb 2:7 Thou madest him A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast subjected all things under his feet. For in that he hath subjected all things to him he left nothing not subject to him. But now we see not as yet all things subject to him.
Heb 2:9 But WE SEE JESUS, WHO WAS MADE A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS, for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour: that, through the grace of God he might taste death for all.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, FOR WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, AND BY WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

We need to stop looking at Jesus as a man he is not for the dust PLEASE.

Look at him before he humbled himself.

Humble yourself not to my words but the word of God my friend.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Son has always been with his Father he is the same as his Father and he is also ONE with his Father. The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father and the Son and where the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son are also. There is only one God no one beside him no one like him.

The Father Son and Holy Spirit have total unity in the Spirit, lets see if Gods word reveals this.

Who Indwells Believers?
Is it not BOTH the Father and the Son?

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word. And my Father will love him AND WE WILL COME TO HIM and will make OUR abode with him.

WE and OUR its all very clear.

How does the Father and the Son indwell believers?

The Holy Spirit.
Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you ANOTHER PARACLETE, that HE MAY ABIDE WITH YOU FOR EVER:
Joh 14:17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him. But you shall know him; because he shall abide with you and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you orphans: I WILL COME TO YOU.

1Co 3:16 Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

Its God who dwells in us.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God: as God saith: I will dwell in them and walk among them. And I will be their God: and they shall be my people.

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, but the spirit, if so be that the SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if CHRIST BE IN YOU, the body indeed is dead, because of sin: but THE SPIRIT LIVETH, because of justification.

Other examples of the Father Son and Holy Spirit

Rom 8:11 And if the SPIRIT OF HIM THAT RAISED UP JESUS FROM THE DEAD DWELL IN YOU; he that raised up Jesus Christ, from the dead shall quicken also your mortal bodies, because OF HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN YOU.

1Co 2:12 Now, we have received not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is OF God: that WE MAY KNOW THE THINGS THAT ARE GIVEN US FROM GOD.

1Co 6:19 Or know you not that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have FROM God: and you are not your own?

1Co 3:16 Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of HIS SON into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father.

1Jo 3:24 And he that KEEPETH HIS COMMANDMENTS ABIDETH IN HIM, and he in him. And in this we know that he abideth in us by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jo 4:13 In this we know that WE ABIDE IN HIM, and HE IN US: BECAUSE HE HATH GIVEN US OF HIS SPIRIT.

The Holy Spirit lives in us because the Father and Son have sent him. And because the Holy Spirit lives in us this means that the Father and Son abides in us. This is clear in Gods word so it is the truth.

The WORD of God is not just as a man the Second commandment of Love. He is from God and OF God. He is the Great I AM, the First and the Last, the Creator of the Heavens and NOT ONE THING WAS made without him.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

Look at Jesus from where he came and not as the humble one and you will see the unity.

God Bless you.

I take it you attend the UPC?

June 7, 2006 at 9:58 pm#14648

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (epistemaniac @ June 06 2006,22:05)

“Whoever wills to be in a state of salvation, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic [1] faith, which except everyone shall have kept whole and undefiled without doubt he will perish eternally.
Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three eternals but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one infinite. So, likewise, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet not three almighties but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; and yet not three Gods but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there be three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. So there is one Father not three Fathers, one Son not three Sons, and one Holy Spirit not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Trinity in Unity and the Unity in Trinity is to be worshipped. He therefore who wills to be in a state of salvation, let him think thus of the Trinity.

But it is necessary to eternal salvation that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith therefore is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. He is God of the substance of the Father begotten before the worlds, and He is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God, perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who although He be God and Man yet He is not two but one Christ; one however not by conversion of the Godhead in the flesh, but by taking of the Manhood in God; one altogether not by confusion of substance but by unity of Person. For as the reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man shall have believed faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation.

1. apostolic/universal ”

really it is surprising to see you struggle with this so…. its like trying to reinvent the wheel or something… come on man… get with the program!! 😉 lol this whole thing was settled long long ago….

blessings

Hi e,
Why would you preach catholic doctrine here?

We have no taste any more for it and have judged it as poor fodder from the minds of men.
We are those who have tasted of the Lord and found he is good and have left behind the whore with her foul food.

June 7, 2006 at 10:14 pm#14649