Understanding the Holy Spirit?

[theostein]

Many Protestant Churches says and belief in trinity. The claim that God exist in three persons.

My question is, Is God a person? Is the Holy Spirit a person? (As far as I know, only the Son came in flesh)

[Proclaimer]

I refer you to the following page:
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity.htm

[solosott]

ARE there not, however, Bible verses that speak of the holy spirit in personal terms? Yes, but note what Catholic theologian Edmund Fortman says about this in The Triune God: "Although this spirit is often described in personal terms, it seems quite clear that the sacred writers [of the Hebrew Scriptures] never conceived or presented this spirit as a distinct person."
In the Scriptures it is not unusual for something to be personified. Wisdom is said to have children. (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are called kings. (Romans 5:14, 21) At Genesis 4:7 The New English Bible (NE) says: "Sin is a demon crouching at the door," personifying sin as a wicked spirit crouching at Cain’s door. But, of course, sin is not a spirit person; nor does personifying the holy spirit make it a spirit person.

Similarly, at 1 John 5:6-8 (NE) not only the spirit but also "the water, and the blood" are said to be "witnesses." But water and blood are obviously not persons, and neither is the holy spirit a person.

In harmony with this is the Bible’s general usage of "holy spirit" in an impersonal way, such as paralleling it with water and fire. (Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8) People are urged to become filled with holy spirit instead of with wine. (Ephesians 5:18) They are spoken of as being filled with holy spirit in the same way they are filled with such qualities as wisdom, faith, and joy. (Acts 6:3; 11:24; 13:52) And at 2 Corinthians 6:6 holy spirit is included among a number of qualities. Such expressions would not be so common if the holy spirit were actually a person.

Then, too, while some Bible texts say that the spirit speaks, other texts show that this was actually done through humans or angels. (Matthew 10:19, 20; Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Hebrews 2:2) The action of the spirit in such instances is like that of radio waves transmitting messages from one person to another far away.

At Matthew 28:19 reference is made to "the name . . . of the holy spirit." But the word "name" does not always mean a personal name, either in Greek or in English. When we say "in the name of the law," we are not referring to a person. We mean that which the law stands for, its authority. Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament says: "The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority." So baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ recognizes the authority of the spirit, that it is from God and functions by divine will.

[solosott]

GOD is the name commonly given to the ultimate source and power of the universe and the subject of religious devotion," says The Encyclopedia Americana. A dictionary defines the term "God" as "the supreme or ultimate reality." What is the nature of such an awesome reality?

Is God an impersonal force or a real person? Does he have a name? Is he a triune entity, a Trinity, as many believe? How can we come to know God? The Bible provides truthful and satisfying answers to these questions. In fact, it encourages us to seek God, saying: "He is not far off from each one of us." —Acts 17:27.

An Impersonal Force or a Real Person?
Many who believe in God think of him as a force, not as a person. In certain cultures, for example, gods have been identified with the forces of nature. Some who have examined evidence gathered through scientific research into the structure of the universe and the nature of life on earth have concluded that there has to be a First Cause. Nevertheless, they hesitate to attach a personality to this Cause.

Yet, does not the complexity of creation indicate that the First Cause must have had great intelligence? Intelligence requires a mind. The great mind responsible for all creation belongs to the person of God. Yes, God has a body, not a physical one like ours, but a spiritual body. "If there is a physical body," says the Bible, "there is also a spiritual one." (1 Corinthians 15:44) Explaining the nature of God, the Bible clearly states: "God is a Spirit." (John 4:24) A spirit has a form of life that differs greatly from ours, and it is invisible to human eyes. (John 1:18) There are invisible spirit creatures as well. They are angels —"the sons of the true God." —Job 1:6; 2:1.

Since God is an uncreated person with a spiritual body, he logically has a place of residence. Referring to the spirit realm, the Bible tells us that the heavens are God’s "established place of dwelling." (1 Kings 8:43) Also, the Bible writer Paul states: ‘Christ entered into heaven itself to appear before the person of God for us.’ —Hebrews 9:24.

The word "spirit" is also used in the Bible in another sense. Addressing God in prayer, the psalmist said: "If you send forth your spirit, they are created." (Psalm 104:30) This spirit is not God himself but a force that God sends forth, or uses, to accomplish whatever he wishes. By means of it, God created the physical heavens, the earth, and all living things. (Genesis 1:2; Psalm 33:6) His spirit is called holy spirit. God used his holy spirit to inspire the men who wrote the Bible. (2 Peter 1:20, 21) Hence, the holy spirit is the invisible active force that God uses to fulfill his purposes.

God Has a Unique Name
The Bible writer Agur asked: "Who has gathered the wind in the hollow of both hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in a mantle? Who has made all the ends of the earth to rise? What is his name and what the name of his son?" (Proverbs 30:4) In effect, Agur was asking, ‘Do you know the name or family line of any man who has done these things?’ Only God has the power to control natural forces. While the creation provides powerful proof that God exists, it is silent about the name of God. In fact, we could never know God’s name unless God himself revealed it to us. And he has. "I am Jehovah," says the Creator, "that is my name." —Isaiah 42:8.

God’s unique name, Jehovah, occurs nearly 7,000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures alone. Jesus Christ made that name known to others and praised it before them. (John 17:6, 26) That name is found in the last book of the Bible as a part of the expression "Hallelujah," meaning "praise Jah." And "Jah" is the shortened form of "Jehovah." (Revelation 19:1-6, footnote) Yet, many modern Bibles seldom use that name. They often use the word "LORD" or "GOD," written in all capital letters to set it apart from the common titles "Lord" and "God." Some scholars suggest that the divine name may have been pronounced Yahweh.

Why such differing views about the name of the greatest Personage in the universe? The problem began centuries ago when the Jews superstitiously ceased to pronounce the divine name and started to substitute the Hebrew word for "Sovereign Lord" whenever they came to the divine name as they read the Scriptures. Since Biblical Hebrew was written without vowels, there is no way to know precisely how Moses, David, and others of ancient times pronounced the letters that make up the divine name. However, the English pronunciation, Jehovah, has been in use for centuries, and its equivalent in many languages is widely accepted today. —Exodus 6:3; Isaiah 26:4, King James Version.

Though there is uncertainty about how God’s name was pronounced in ancient Hebrew, its meaning is not a complete mystery. His name means "He Causes to Become." Jehovah God thereby identifies himself as the Great Purposer. He always causes his purposes and promises to become reality. Only the true God, who has the power to do this, can rightfully bear that name. —Isaiah 55:11.

Unquestionably, the name Jehovah serves to distinguish Almighty God from all other gods. That is why that name appears so often in the Bible. While many translations fail to use the divine name, Psalm 83:18 clearly states: "You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." During his ministry, Jesus Christ taught his followers: "You must pray, then, this way: ‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.’" (Matthew 6:9) We should, then, use God’s name when we pray, speak of him, and praise him before others.

[Proclaimer]

Hi solosott,

1) How do we know that Jehovah and not Yahweh is God's name.
2) How do you know that God's Spirit is not a person if the Spirit is referred to as him. You do point out that forces or things are often referred to as a person, but how do you know that the Spirit is not a person.

I refer you to the following scriptures. An explantion for these verses would be helpful.

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Isaiah 6:8-10
8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord (Anonay) saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
9 He said, “Go and tell this people:
” 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.  
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”

And

Acts 28:25-27
25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26 ” 'Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'

I am meditating on the Spirit of God and who/what he is. I recently read the above verses. How do they fit into your theology?

[John]

Hello to everyone,

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same.

John 14:17-18 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus here was speaking of the coming Holy Spirit. He told the disciples that they know Him. Who did the disciples know? They knew Jesus.

Then Jesus says, "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you."

The Holy Spirit came to be at the glorification of Jesus, prior to that there was no Holy Spirit.

John 7:39 He was speaking of the Spirit which those who believed in him were to receive; for there was no Spirit as yet because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

A spirit is a mind dealing with thought.

Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

To be holy is to be set apart such as we see in holiday. Holiday a day that has been set apart from all the other days.

The glorified mind of Christ is now a mind that is Holy and set apart, prior to His resurrection it was not so.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Peter 1:11 searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.

Jesus is the Holy Spirit that will reveal the deep things of His Father to all who have ears to hear.

2 Corinthians 3:16-17 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Truth in love,
John

(Edited by John at 12:46 pm on Feb. 4, 2004)

[ringo111]

Hi John. I will answer your questions- and statments- thankyou for being so open about what you believe, here’s some things to think about.

-John Writes-

"Hello to everyone,

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same.

John 14:17-18 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus here was speaking of the coming Holy Spirit. He told the disciples that they know Him. Who did the disciples know? They knew Jesus.

Then Jesus says, "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you." "

*********************************
I ringo111 say-

Ok John- In the scripture you quoted.

You didn’t include the line surrounding scripture, in which the answers and correction to your statement and question lies. In John 14:16 you will find your answer to your question and correction to your statement "Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same."

John 14:16
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever–

1)Jesus asks the Father
2)Father will give another counsellor

-Jesus says what he means- Another councelor will be sent. Not his very self-

Also look at John the Baptists testomony
Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

******************************

"The Holy Spirit came to be at the glorification of Jesus, prior to that there was no Holy Spirit.

John 7:39 He was speaking of the Spirit which those who believed in him were to receive; for there was no Spirit as yet because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

******************************
I ringo111 say-

Your translation is in error –

NIV – John 7
39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

KJV – John 7
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

NASB – John 7
39 But this He spoke (1) of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for (2) the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet (3) glorified.

– all these say that the Spirit was not yet given-
and not that "there was no spirit as yet" as your quote claims-

Here is Scripture’s that prove the Holy Spirit was indeed in existance. Before jesus rose from the dead, which jesus testifies of.

Matthew 1:18
This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

Luke 2:26
It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

Mark 12:36
David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: " ‘The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."

****************************************

"A spirit is a mind dealing with thought.

Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

To be holy is to be set apart such as we see in holiday. Holiday a day that has been set apart from all the other days.

The glorified mind of Christ is now a mind that is Holy and set apart, prior to His resurrection it was not so.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Peter 1:11 searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.

Jesus is the Holy Spirit that will reveal the deep things of His Father to all who have ears to hear.

2 Corinthians 3:16-17 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Truth in love,
John "

*****************************

I ringo111 say- Yes there are many spirits – and also many spirits of god. The holy spirit is another spirit that god own’s.

Revelation 4:5
From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Also in the OT

Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD –

Please consider carefully ^_^
**************************************

[John]

Hi ringo111,

Most of the bibles out there are of a trinitarian desent in which they will twist and add to scripture to make the trinity doctrine more acceptable such as 1 John 5:7.

Throughout eternity there was only the Spirit of God (Father) and now at the coming of the last days we now have the Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit came to be at the glorification of Jesus.

Jesus gave Himself as an expression of love in order so that we would love Him and allow Him to correct our thinking.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Eph. 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Jesus became the author of eternal life to all who obey Him. Jesus was able to do this because He was obedient through the things that He suffered.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

There is no third person Holy Spirit, it’s only the Father and His Son.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the mind of Christ will direct you if you let this mind that is in Christ also be in you.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

There are many more verses that speak of the Father and His Son and the unity they share in Spirit in the same way we can be partakers of the same Spirit of unity.

John 17:11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

2 Peter 1:4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The most important thing is that we express our love for God through loving others.

John 15:12  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Romans 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

1 Thessalonians 4:9  But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

1 John 3:11  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1 John 4:7  Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 4:11  Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

1 John 4:12  No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

2 John 1:5  And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another.

Peace, love and joy in Christ,
John

(Edited by John at 5:08 pm on Feb. 12, 2004)

[ringo111]

HI John- It would be nice if you’d answer my points from my last post- instead of ignoring them.

And once again- about loving one another you are right- But not about these things-

You John say:

"There is no third person Holy Spirit, it’s only the Father and His Son. "

*******************************
I ringo111 say-

John 14:16
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever–

Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

Matthew 1:18
This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

Luke 2:26
It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

Mark 12:36
David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: " ‘The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."

How can you deny these scriptures???

There is a holy spirit- jesus calls him- a person.

Please step outside of your indocrination.
Which is weird even for a trinitarian. Please read the facts.
*******************************************

You say john-

"John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. "

*****************************
I ringo111 say-

You take this out of context-
What about baptism or producing good fruits or be cut off??
No it does not means just accept these two facts It means to follow what Jesus said because you know that he was sent by his GOD the ONE TRUE GOD.

Romans 6:22
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
***************************************
You John say-

"The Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the mind of Christ will direct you if you let this mind that is in Christ also be in you.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: "

********************************
I ringo111 say-

Your quote only supports that we should think the same as jesus- It does not however support your statment
of which you john said-
"The Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit"

I ringo111 say-

John 14:16
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever–

Please stop ignoring this scripture. And please answer my points in your responses.

Seems like i will have to relist all the quotes that tell you who the holy spirit is??

If Jesus was himself being sent- then he would have said ‘I myself will be sent to you’
But he did not!!!
Instead Jesus said

John 14:16
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever–

and again he says.

John 14
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

*The holy spirit reminds us of what jesus said- THe holy Spirit is not Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2
12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
****************************************
You say John-

"There are many more verses that speak of the Father and His Son and the unity they share in Spirit in the same way we can be partakers of the same Spirit of unity. "

*****************************
I ringo111 say-

Yes But this does not mean what you think it does-
Please refer to my above respose to your belief that the holy spirit is not a person.

*We are to be one with god- jesus- believers  

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

ok, here’s a quote about the holy spirit-

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

*so that we can be one-

Please answer my points.

(Edited by ringo111 at 6:40 pm on Feb. 12, 2004)

[John]

Hi ringo111,

John 16:13-16 However, when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since he will not be speaking of his own accord, but will say only what he has been told; and he will reveal to you the things to come. He will glorify me, since all he reveals to you will be taken from what is mine. Everything the Father has is mine; that is why I said: all he reveals to you will be taken from what is mine. Jesus to return very soon In a short time you will no longer see me, and then a short time later you will see me again.

The Spirit of truth is the mind of Christ. The mind of Christ will give to you what the Father gives to Him.

Jesus says, "you will no longer see Me, but then a short time later you will see Me again."

When Jesus is glorified, in other words, when He goes to His Father He become the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth. This truth that He gives us will remain with us forever. We will forever be accountable to this truth.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, `We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.

Luke 12:48 "But he who did not know, yet committed things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Peace, love and joy in Christ,
John

[ringo111]

I will use your own scripture quote

Yoou John sAY-
"John 16:13

He will glorify me, since all he reveals to you will be taken from what is mine."

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I ringo111 say

Again He is talking about the Holy spirit as a seperate person from himself- and besides this- Ive allready proven in my previous posts that the holy spirit is a person- who acted before jesus was sent.

But again i will quote-

Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

*the holy spirit Descending on Jesus- How plain do you want it??

*you claim trinitarians added it these mountians of references to the holy spirit-
Can you prove it?? Do you have any documents to prove you are correct?? Or have you been lead into error by someone you respect. Which i suspect to be the case.

*these have been the last days for 2000 years- and they did see Jesus again – he showed himself to them in the locked house-

John 20:25
So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"

THe two on the road to emmaus
Luke 24

34and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." 35Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

And again to Thomas and the disciples

John 20:27
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

THe two on the road to emmaus
Luke 24
34and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." 35Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

Now please stop ignoring everything i am saying- I take your scriptures and look at them and your views and answer them- Point by point- you could show the same curtousy- It will at least be able to show you are willing to properly debate rather than just throwing out things that you call trueth without any real explanation-

I am here for the trueth- I want to know the truth- and if you can disprove my points- Then that will be a start- But as for our current communication-

I have given scripture to back up my belief all the way through the bible and you – use one loose translation- and alot of your own opinion. And a bible which is questionable – as most other bibles say contrary in parts to yours-

(Edited by ringo111 at 8:01 pm on Feb. 12, 2004)

[John]

Quote

Quote: from ringo111 on 7:57 pm on Feb. 12, 2004 I will use your own scripture quote Yoou John sAY- "John 16:13 He will glorify me, since all he reveals to you will be taken from what is mine." ******************** I ringo111 say Again He is talking about the Holy spirit as a seperate person from himself- and besides this- Ive allready proven in my previous posts that the holy spirit is a person- who acted before jesus was sent. But again i will quote- Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." *the holy spirit Descending on Jesus- How plain do you want it?? *you claim trinitarians added it these mountians of references to the holy spirit- Can you prove it?? Do you have any documents to prove you are correct?? Or have you been lead into error by someone you respect. Which i suspect to be the case. *these have been the last days for 2000 years- and they did see Jesus again – he showed himself to them in the locked house- John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" THe two on the road to emmaus Luke 24 34and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." 35Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread. And again to Thomas and the disciples John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." THe two on the road to emmaus Luke 24 34and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." 35Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread. Now please stop ignoring everything i am saying- I take your scriptures and look at them and your views and answer them- Point by point- you could show the same curtousy- It will at least be able to show you are willing to properly debate rather than just throwing out things that you call trueth without any real explanation- I am here for the trueth- I want to know the truth- and if you can disprove my points- Then that will be a start- But as for our current communication- I have given scripture to back up my belief all the way through the bible and you – use one loose translation- and alot of your own opinion. And a bible which is questionable – as most other bibles say contrary in parts to yours- (Edited by ringo111 at 8:01 pm on Feb. 12, 2004)

Hello ringo111,

What is your definition of the Godhead, is it a co-eternal, co-equal trinity? Please explain.

Truth in love,
John

[ringo111]

The godhead or Trinity- is a manmade- or satan made philosophy-

Within the ones who believe it, debate eachother about Who is greater than who in the godhead- all the same amount of power Father over jesus over holy spirt and so on.

Example of the trinity debate within trinity believers. for instance- I know that mainstream trinitarians would not agree with you.

As they contend that the holy spirit is a person of the godhead.

Where as you do not- Either way Its all wrong and ive written much as to why.

Yet you still believe in a trinity- Not by scipture-

And i wonder why?? maybe because you nievly followed someones belief, someone you respected. Maybe someone you had a crush on believed it.- Maybe from childhood you have held this belief- Maybe some old man that felt it his duty to spread this lie to the young so they would blindly follow- Maybe it was beat into as a child. Or maybe you just wanted to fit in with your church. I know most trinitarians are especially hard hearted when it comes to this issue- And makes it hard to fit into a church situation- because they think your a heretic.

And once again you have not addressed my points.

I read the bible straight out- and when i heard of this trinity- I was like WHAT??? So i read the bible- with lots of prayer- So open, so innocent- These trinitarians against obediance to god’s laws made me not want to be pure or holy- They tore me down. Through the arrogant rantings of the church leaders and constant undermining of character- I prayed so much that i would see gods truth his reality- God has been faithfull and helped me even though at times i curse him because of men. I thank him that keeps me alive through rebelious stages- I’d say, God see’s the way these people treated me, they turned my friends against me- and as a result God doesnt hand me compleatly over to stpidity.

The weight of people and satan at the same time begging you to just give into what others believe is heavy- But i am coming through it.
I pray that you do to-

I ask address my points, plz. Out of all my posts from forums- and not just one- Be fair please, to yourself. Because saying half of it when you know the rest just to prove a point is not good for anyone-

(Edited by ringo111 at 1:05 pm on Feb. 13, 2004)

[John]

Hi ringo111,

I’ll try using your tactic in trying to get an answer.

Well, mister brick wall, you haven’t answered my question. I hope people are reading this forum. Maybe you don’t have the answer. I’ll try again…What is your definition of the Godhead? ; )

By the way, I’m not a trinitarian.

Many blessings,
John

[ringo111]

John

Just for starters- this was your question.

"What is your definition of the Godhead, is it a co-eternal, co-equal trinity?"

My definition would not be to use any of those two terms.

Quote

Quote: from John on 5:33 pm on Feb. 13, 2004 Hi ringo111, I’ll try using your tactic in trying to get an answer. Well, mister brick wall, you haven’t answered my question. I hope people are reading this forum. Maybe you don’t have the answer. I’ll try again…What is your definition of the Godhead? ; ) By the way, I’m not a trinitarian. Many blessings, John

Ok john-

I’ll just quote myself again.

Quote

Quote: from ringo111 on 2:53 am on Feb. 13, 2004 The godhead or Trinity- is a manmade- or satan made philosophy- Within the ones who believe it, debate eachother about Who is greater than who in the godhead- all the same amount of power Father over jesus over holy spirt and so on. Example of the trinity debate within trinity believers. for instance- I know that mainstream trinitarians would not agree with you. As they contend that the holy spirit is a person of the godhead. Where as you do not- Either way Its all wrong and ive written much as to why.

*This was my answer This is what the Trinty is to me- And as i see it you are a trinitarian too- just a break off from the mainstream.

*A major trinitarian teaching is "you cant understand the trinity" So Its a bit hard to give a definition of something so changing in views.

*************************

Any mans belief that states other than these are wrong-

>2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

*Grace of Lord Jesus- Love of God – Fellowship of the holy spirit-

-Grace of Lord Jesus-
Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

-Love of God-
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son

-Fellowship of the holy spirit-

2 Timothy 1:14
Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you–guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.

>Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

*Stephen full of the holy spirit- saw God And next to him was Jesus standing next to God.

*remember jesus said to sit on the left or right was not his to choose-

Mark 10:40
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared."  

>John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ "

*Jesus returning to "my father your father, my god your god"

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil

*god anointed jesus with the holy spirit

***************************************

*The trinity in all its forms is wrong- And if you dont think Jesus Is God, The Father Is God, And the Holy spirit is GOD. Than its not the trinity you believe-
Whatever the history of the trinity- It is proven wrong in scripture-

*You dont want to call you version a trinity?? Thats ok. What do you call it??

Besides what you call it,  your belief that the holy spirit is not a person- is wrong.
That Father And Jesus who you call GOD, And the holy Spirit Being the one spirit that is (GOD) the Father and Jesus. Is also wrong.

************************

And this is my belief-

*The belief that God is the Father Of all_
Jesus the Son of the GOD and Father of all-
The holy spirit Sent By the God and father because of Jesus request, all men that take the elemenrty teaching of christ cruicified, to help us live in accordance and obediance to Jesus commands, Reminding us and empowering us to Live lives acceptable to god.

**************************

Now Please anwer my points-

I also hope many people are reading.

A testiment to all of you truth seekers. =D

(Edited by ringo111 at 12:12 am on Feb. 14, 2004)

[ringo111]

You dont answer my points because there are no contrary arguement to all of my points.

Apart from your own opinion- Which is valid If we are talking about testimony.

As for this type of talk-
It is scripture we need to base our comments- Otherwise we are just gongs, resounding into oblivian.

Especially in a forum entitled "Is the trinity biblical??"

add your opinion aswell if you must- But first seek the scriptures. Here.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/   This place roxors ^_^

All the best my fellow believer type person

I Think we have to step outside our flesh for a moment and reflect – That we are here to Find the truth-

(Edited by ringo111 at 12:12 am on Feb. 14, 2004)

[John]

Hi ringo111,

The Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God is God’s presence in power and wisdom throughout all creation and time. God is all powerful and has all knowledge. There is no where you can go to escape His presence.

Psalms 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

When you lie to the Holy Spirit you lie to God.

2 Peter 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

When God speaks to us He is impressing our mind with His will. God’s Spirit moved these men to speak to write the things that they wrote.

The Spirit of God is His power and presence. He reveals Himself by His Spirit in many different ways. His Spirit will make His will known to us through knowledge, understanding and wisdom.

2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

If you notice that in the mention of the Holy Spirit it is referring to fellowship. This fellowship is the unity between the Father and the Son and us.

We can all possess a divine nature with we seek to make our spirit (mind) holy as He is Holy.

2 Peter 1:4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1 Peter 1:16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy.”

God the Father put all things under Christ, in other words, He gave Jesus full authority to rule but God Himself is still over Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:27 For "He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says "all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.

We come to Jesus to know the Father. Jesus will partition the Father for us to reveal all the blessings that are contained in the new covenant.

John 14:13 "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

God gave this rulership to Jesus so that in Christ God can be all in all, in other words, restore is people back to Himself through Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Stephen was fill with the Holy Spirit, in other words, God’s presence was being poured out in Steven.

Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

The Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God is God. Jesus now has that same Spirit ability to give life. He is the comforter because He understands our suffering because He suffered as we suffer.

There is a lot more but I have to get ready for work.

Many blessings,
John

[ringo111]

Hihi john.

you John say-

"Hi ringo111,

The Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God is God’s presence in power and wisdom throughout all creation and time. God is all

powerful and has all knowledge. There is no where you can go to escape His presence.

Psalms 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? "

**********************************

I ringo111 say-

God owns these spirits- As it is written-

Revelation 4:5
From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These

are the seven spirits of God.

Of coarse Psalms 139:7 could mean what you say with just that scripture- But you have to put it together with everything

else.

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

But as you see there is a seperation here between GoDs Presence and the spirit that god owns.

To Prove this concept that GoD has a King- Owns a King-God Has a prophet- Owns a prophet- In Fact many prophets – God has

Many spirits-

50 He gives his king great victories;
he shows unfailing kindness to his anointed,
to David and his descendants forever.

But we’re triing to talk about the one spirit of God here, that is the "holy spirit" – Who speaks what God tells him to say-

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only

what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

************************************

You John say-

"Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the

price of the land for yourself?   "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own

control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

When you lie to the Holy Spirit you lie to God.

****************************************

I ringo111 say-

Dont you understand – God told the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit told the disciples- the disciples told everyone else

inculding Ananias-  Of which Ananias Lied to the disciples- And because as It says, God looks at all men Both good and evil

to consider all theyre doings- God saw that they treated the message with contempted- The disciples new this- and acted upon

it.

Deuteronomy 18:19
If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only

what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

***********************************
You John said-

"2 Peter 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

When God speaks to us He is impressing our mind with His will. God’s Spirit moved these men to speak to write the things that

they wrote. "

********************************

I ringo111 reply-

Yes True – God owns the holy spirit and sends HiM to make His will known.

********************************

You John say-

The Spirit of God is His power and presence. He reveals Himself by His Spirit in many different ways. His Spirit will make

His will known to us through knowledge, understanding and wisdom.

2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

If you notice that in the mention of the Holy Spirit it is referring to fellowship. This fellowship is the unity between the

Father and the Son and us.

************************************

I ringo111 say-

Yes- because GoD owns the holy spirit- and sends him.

John 15:26
26"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he

will testify about me.

*************************************************

You John say-

We can all possess a divine nature with we seek to make our spirit (mind) holy as He is Holy.

2 Peter 1:4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers

of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

**************************************************

I ringo111 say-

Yes we can ^_^ because

John 14:16
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another
Counselor to be with you forever–

John 16:13
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide
you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will
speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet
to come.

1 Peter 1:16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy.”

*************************************************
You John say-

God the Father put all things under Christ, in other words, He gave Jesus full authority to rule but God Himself is still

over Jesus.

***************************************************

I ringo111 say-

All of a sudden you recognise jesus is not GoD.

Im glad to see your changing your perspective to
conform to the biblical teaching.

Or at least hope this is the case.

Unless your going to contradict yourself and call jesus god?

***********************************************

You John say-

1 Corinthians 15:27  For "He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says "all things are put under Him,” it is

evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.

We come to Jesus to know the Father. Jesus will partition the Father for us to reveal all the blessings that are contained in

the new covenant.

John 14:13 "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

God gave this rulership to Jesus so that in Christ God can be all in all, in other words, restore is people back to Himself

through Christ.

******************************************

I ringo111 say-

Yey ^_^

***************************************

You John say-

1 Corinthians 15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all

things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Stephen was fill with the Holy Spirit, in other words, God’s presence was being poured out in Steven.

Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of

God.
********************************************

I ringo111 say-

cool – Yeah- God sent Jesus – right on ^_^

********************************************

You John say-

The Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God is God. Jesus now has that same Spirit ability to give life. He is the comforter because

He understands our suffering because He suffered as we suffer.

**********************************************

I ringo111 say-

Now to say the Holy Spirit of god is god is wrong
Because..

Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the
Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

*as you can clearly see there is a Clear seperation
between the Holy Spirit and GoD.

* GoD has given to those who obey him.

********************************************
Continuing to my next point-

U John say-

"Jesus now has that same Spirit ability to give life. He is the comforter because

He understands our suffering because He suffered as we suffer. "

**************************

I ringo111 say-

God granted Jesus to have life-

John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself

He did not need to suffer to understand-

John 2:
24-25
24But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. 25He did not need man’s testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.

The Holy spirit is the comforter because he says what he hears from god-
God made us- So of coarse he knows-

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

1 Chronicles 28:9 Patial quote-
acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches

every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you

But always remember this one-

Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Jesus is the son of GoD

The Holy Spirit is Sent by GoD

Jesus is not a liier- Jesus calls the Holy Spirit "HIM" and "another counselor.

(Edited by ringo111 at 8:58 am on Feb. 15, 2004)

[Proclaimer]

Hi John & ringo111,

John, I do not believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same as you said in the original post.

Like ringo111, I think that the Holy Spirit proceeds from God and that Jesus was born of God. both came from God, but Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not the same.

ringo111, I am not sure if your quote is entirely correct, “Now to say the Holy Spirit of god is god is wrong”.

I refer you to the following scriptures and ask for you to comment on them. I am searching this matter out and confess to not having the answer myself.

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Isaiah 6:8-10
8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord (Anonay) saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
9 He said, “Go and tell this people:
” 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.  
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”

And

Acts 28:25-27
25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26 ” 'Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'

I look forward to any feedback and pray that God will guide us all into his truth.

[John]

Hi t8,

What are the questions you are asking regarding the verses you listed?

Many blessing,
John

[Author]

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