- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hi,
It is good to see that there is a vigorous and interactive series of debates going on in the forum. Many new members and guests are contributing valuable insights.
One observation I would make is that there is more pressure being applied to demand an immediate response to a question. Bearing in mind that we are discussing the most precious words ever written should we always expect instant responses?
Would that not show that we do not want proper consideration to the question asked or enough thorough research done on those questions?
Does that show the respect to the person asked, or of the Word of God itself?
Would it not also suggest that we were involved rather in a competition to prove ourselves and our own beliefs rather than to find the real truth?
Many also seem to believe that a large number of words strengthens a case. If it is simple it can be simply shown. The Word of God is for children so if deep explanation is required it suggests that we have wandered off the path of truth.
Some offer human wisdom and rationalisations salted with scripture but not based on it. These are seductive in their appeal. I prefer to see the Word of God rightly divided with scripture allowed to interpret itself.
I do not know anyone who knows everything about the Word and can explain all scriptures so we all need to have the humility to realise that we can all be found wanting as we pursue the quest for understanding. To show gentleness whenever possible while we journey together would seem wise though there are some who show such disrespect for the Word that it is difficult to do so. Their hatred for God manifests itself in this way.
I would like to start a debate on how to approach scripture in the hope that we would not continue to waste energy on hot air and really agree on a basis for that discernment of scripture.
We already seem to assume this unity in our discussions without the evidence that we share it and it can be the cause of unnecessary division.
2Peter 1.20-21,3.16, 1Peter 3.15.I think that this is a wise thing to do.
We need to be first led by the Spirit of God rightly dividing the word of God.
In general, most bible translations fall into 2 categories.
1) Literal: Those that try to take the words in the script and replace it with the closest English word/s.
2) Open: Those that read a natural sentence and then rewrite it in a way that conveys the meaning.The advantage of 1) is that it is more accurate from a scholarly point of view, but can also be hard to read as the language is not always that natural when translated. An example of this type of translation is the NASB. But these translations are better when trying to determine what certain words mean and how they are used in other scriptures. However the NASB supposedly does a pretty good job at being literal whilst keeping the language natural.
The advantage of 2) is that these translations are very easy to read and can in essence bring across the point intended quite well. The disadvantage of course is that these translations contain words that are not in the original script and can at times be we off, as they are only as good as the understanding that the translator has of the verse in the first place. Examples of this translation is the Good News and the NIV.
The Good News is not really used by serious people who study scripture, but the NIV is. The NIV is a good translation in that it is easy to read and yet is supposedly quite accurate too.
The point I am making is that we really need to study scripture when we decide that we want to teach it. Remembering that teachers will be judged more severly than others because of the big and important responsibility we have. Bearing this in mind, I would advise that we shouldn't all be teachers. But to those whom God has called to this ministry, I would say that we should be very careful in all that we say.
Besides the obviousness of being led by the Spirit of God in all that we do, we should have on hand a number of translations to refer to. Both literal and open. It is also a good idea that we use a concordance while bearing in mind that they are not the ultimate authority and can contain errors.
All these tools are available not only in hard copy, but also on the Internet. The home page of this website provides links to these tools and can be a handy way to construct your posts, as you can copy and paste scriptures and meanings from a concordance.
As it is written in 2 Timothy 2:15
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.I too would like to see a respect for scripture that goes beyond a persons respect in his own pride. Too many times people come here and teach that which they shouldn't and cut down teachings that are not in their experience. We should all be open and yet remain sensible knowing that we certainly do not know everything.
If we are to truly learn, we first need to be pliable like wet clay and then God can shape us and our beliefs to the image that he desires. Is this not better than shaping ourselves and listening to teachers who scratch your itchy ears.
For surely it is our job to seek out the truth in all matters and those that love the truth are surely loved by God. Those that are led by the truth will surely be found to be true themselves and open to receive the blessings of our great God.
Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life”. If we want to travel down the correct path and we want life eternal, then we must also be led and love the truth. For the Spirit of Truth has been sent into our hearts that will result in us calling out to our God, who is the Father of our Lord Yeshua.
Very helpful t8,
I grew up on Good News and loved it's simplicity and readability and I am sure many others had their eyes opened to the beauty in the Word through this translation.I still read it when I am feeding my soul and not searching out truth and it still speaks to me.I find it fascinating and frustrating too to see what has happened with translation availability in the last few years. You used to be able to choose from many versions but now most shops only contain the NIV and the KJV and I don't regard either as being particularly helpful for serious study.
When it comes to understanding scripture context is vital.
Mk 9.40 “For he who is not against us is for us”
Lk11.23″ He who is not with me is against me”These verses seem on the surface to be mutually incompatible. But they relate to different contexts.
The first relates to the work of God in the world where simply not opposing that work helps it spread because of it's innate power.
The second relates to those in the assembly where lack of unity destroys the effectiveness of the Body of Christ as a unit.
Hi ,
As liljon has pointed out today you cannot establish a scripture proof with one verse.
Words can have more than one meaning[eg lead].
Culture or translation, even bias in translation can lead to false conclusions.
Lack of cultural understanding, as with the Jewish wedding scenario, can also cause us not to appreciate the full meaning of a scripture and this is why we really need to search out these matters as well.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 06 2005,04:34) I grew up on Good News and loved it's simplicity and readability and I am sure many others had their eyes opened to the beauty in the Word through this translation.I still read it when I am feeding my soul and not searching out truth and it still speaks to me.
I agree entirely, Nick. I use the Good News, too, when I am reading rather than studying, and I must admit that I take great pleasure, and inspiration too, from the illustrations.When studying I try to use as many versions as I can, usually Good News, NIV, New American Standard, KJV, New English (which has some odd turns of phrase, often worth investigating) and the Revised Standard Version.
The cultural differences between the times and places of the Bible, and our time and place do mean that we need good commentaries, and again, I try to use a number of well-respected versions, and also to dip into a couple of more obscure, or even slightly odd-ball ones. Sometimes identifying another person's mistakes can shed a great deal of light on what you are doing, and, equally, there are often nuggets of gold in the most unlikely places – but care is needed, of course.
Beautiful intro, Nick and a wonderful follow-up, t8. You both spoke very well indeed.
I have been receiving a “read the Bible in a year” mailing in my email that is in either the Living Translation or the Message Bible (I believe it's the first) and I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are. It is wonderful to read some of the very difficult books such as Numbers, Leviticus, etc. in such an easy to understand format. However, everything I read must still be tested against the KJV before it can pass muster. I think it was Nick that said that the KJV is not a good version for scholarly study and I was kind of surprised by this comment. While I agree that one must keep a Greek/Hebrew lexicon ready in order to use it, it appears to me, for the most part, that it is quite a reliable translation.
May God continue to work the fringes of religion and society to keep the plain gospel truth of scripture alive and available to the vast majority of those who have unwittingly been deceived by the god of this earth. I thank God that this site exists to keep the spiritual fire alive. How delightful is the word of God and how blessed is His mercy.
Hi bic,
I use KJV and find it useful. But words like “robbeth” in Phil 2 are really unhelpful in our time. It has it's utter devotees, more so that any other version I would say. Those that rely totally on it seem to rarely compare it with other versions. To them it seems to have taken on infalliblity status. It is seen as perfect while others are often written off as corrupted. Yet it has been found wanting too especially in the 1Jn 5.7 addition.To treat it as perfect risks worshipping it. And total reliance on it is also putting one at risk of not listening to the Spirit who wrote it.
False teachers misuse it's difficult translation problems to induce reliance on them as the only valid interpreters too.
nick wrote:[/quote]
“Would it not also suggest that we were involved rather in a competition to prove ourselves and our own beliefs rather than to find the real truth?”“I do not know anyone who knows everything about the Word and can explain all scriptures so we all need to have the humility to realise that we can all be found wanting as we pursue the quest for understanding. To show gentleness whenever possible while we journey together would seem wise though there are some who show such disrespect for the Word that it is difficult to do so.”
I believe we should pray together that the Holy Spirit guide this forum. We should be one in the Spirit and not greive the Spirit with our flesh remember the Holy Spirit is a comforter not a warrior so anything but love and peace is not of the Spirit. Please don't misunderstand I'm the most guility but the Lord has been dealing with me on this and now I see from Nick's statements above that it seems the Holy Spirit has been dealing with Nick also. So please lets pray that the Holy Spirit take control of this forum and whatever He teaches accept it no matter if the truth goes against what we believe or not.
I H N,
Ken
Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 22 2007,14:00) nick wrote:[/quote]
“Would it not also suggest that we were involved rather in a competition to prove ourselves and our own beliefs rather than to find the real truth?”“I do not know anyone who knows everything about the Word and can explain all scriptures so we all need to have the humility to realise that we can all be found wanting as we pursue the quest for understanding. To show gentleness whenever possible while we journey together would seem wise though there are some who show such disrespect for the Word that it is difficult to do so.”
I believe we should pray together that the Holy Spirit guide this forum. We should be one in the Spirit and not greive the Spirit with our flesh remember the Holy Spirit is a comforter not a warrior so anything but love and peace is not of the Spirit. Please don't misunderstand I'm the most guility but the Lord has been dealing with me on this and now I see from Nick's statements above that it seems the Holy Spirit has been dealing with Nick also. So please lets pray that the Holy Spirit take control of this forum and whatever He teaches accept it no matter if the truth goes against what we believe or not.
I H N,
Ken
Your words are filled with righteousness
It so good to come while offered the chance
With the free will of man given by God, he sorts out the most faithfull hearts
the degree off order shall begin
A greater reward to those in obedience1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
1Cr 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.
1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:All men shall bow at the knees by force
Putting pride away knows will be honored in his site
Your reward will be equal according to what you desiredisire to be first, and he shall give you anthing according to his will
Faith hope…christ shall quicken your mind , changing us in moment of timecharity
Should we be aware of false prophets specking lies when we really don’t suspect it?
Differing numbers on the count of Israel?
Satan’s Hand or Gods Hand causing the count?
Should we be aware of false prophets specking lies when we really don’t suspect it?
Differing numbers on the count of Israel?
Satan’s Hand or Gods Hand causing the count?
A person always writes from his own eye sight?
This is typical of satins’ work confusion any attention is better than none
Remember Satan will always distract with the racket of pots and pans behind us when there’s something big to happen
Distractions to divert our focus is his number one steel the truth away trickPlease don't allow him the pleasure of your vessel even Peter
had to be rebuked by Christ
Get behind me SatanBe ready for him always
1Ch 21:1 ¶ And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
1Ch 21:6 But Levi and Benjamin counted he not among them: for the king's word was abominable to Joab.
2Sa 24:4 Notwithstanding the king's word prevailed against Joab, and against the captains of the host. And Joab and the captains of the host went out from the presence of the king, to number the people of Israel.
1Ch 21:5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all [they of] Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah [was] four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.
2Sa 24:9 And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah [were] five hundred thousand men.
Hi,
It would be good if all the doubts could be put aside and we could concentrate on gleaning as much beauty as we can from the anointed words given to us by God for our growth.Hi,
Scripture reveals itself if you will wait for confirmatory verses.
Some look at a verse and deny it as being impossible but it is just that they have not given it time.
Others grab one verse if it fits their opinion and teach from it without being a little wise and cross checking.On this site you can check several things by comparing versions.
The NIV option gives you variations on manuscripts.
The NASB gives cross references to similar verses.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2005,07:26) Many new members and guests are contributing valuable insights.
A guest cannot post, can they? I often see that guests are indeed posting, but of course we never see what they write. Why is this? Does anyone know? Just curious….Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2008,14:04) Hi,
Scripture reveals itself if you will wait for confirmatory verses.
Some look at a verse and deny it as being impossible but it is just that they have not given it time.
Others grab one verse if it fits their opinion and teach from it without being a little wise and cross checking.On this site you can check several things by comparing versions.
The NIV option gives you variations on manuscripts.
The NASB gives cross references to similar verses.
Nick That is so right. When a new truth first gets introduced to you by the Holy Spirit, the Human in us want to deny it. For years I denied that Jesus preexisted, but those scriptures and the subject came up and up again until I fully understood it. God works in mysteries ways.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 11 2008,16:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2005,07:26) Many new members and guests are contributing valuable insights.
A guest cannot post, can they? I often see that guests are indeed posting, but of course we never see what they write. Why is this? Does anyone know? Just curious….
I think these are bots trying to hammer the site with spam posts.
That is why that feature has been disabled. We would ever keep up with constant spamming if it was enabled.hi nick
this is your comment;Nick HassanGroup: Regular Members
Posts: 41824
Joined: June 2004 Posted: Feb. 11 2008,14:04——————————————————————————–
Hi,
Scripture reveals itself if you will wait for confirmatory verses.(is this view not leading to interpretation?)
Some look at a verse and deny it as being impossible but it is just that they have not given it time.
Others grab one verse if it fits their opinion and teach from it without being a little wise and cross checking.On this site you can check several things by comparing versions.
The NIV option gives you variations on manuscripts.
The NASB gives cross references to similar verses.
(is this not following te letter ?)
sinse you rely on your personnel study and that of men???Hi t,
You have the options of letting scripture interpret itself or drawing from it what suits your dogmas.
The second option has always been far more popular.Scripture is extremely malleable as the debates here show.
But one of it's wonderful characters is that God repeats Himself all through it.
If one verse dogmas were eliminated by the principle of 2 Cor13.1 then there would be little room for argument.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
