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lets clear things up, imperfection is not sin ,it is the sin of ADAM what was transmitted to as and it stands for 'the inability to sustain live,this was taken away from ADAM because of is sin.' now there are two laws one is from GOD the otherone is from Man.or in other words two wills 1)the will of GOD. 2) the will of Man.the bible discribe the will of GOD, everything else is man made (with the help of the devil)there is as well the toughs of GOD and the toughts of Man,why they are people just can't understand what they read,just like the religion leaders in Jesus time,theyr interest lays in other places.to CON
why you dont send the intire bible to each of us but we have it already ,why your quothing are long and only bible verses,no understanding thereQuote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 29 2009,22:31) Quote (georg @ Oct. 29 2009,02:52) It seems more of a place for unbelievers to agree with each other. Georg
Who are the unbelievers? Those who disagree with you?
No, those who ignore scripture!Georg
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 31 2009,00:45) SIN IS NOT BELEIVING THAT YOU ARE CLEANSED AND MADE PERFECT IN GOD. SIN IS THINKING ANYTHING CAN SEPARATE YOU FROM GOD!
SIN IS AN ERROR OF BELIEF.
SIN IS WRONG THINKING—IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE YOU ARE SINLESS, YOU ARE IN SIN! RIGHTEOUSNESS IS STILL BY FAITH AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING!
REJECT YOUR FREE PERFECTION AND LIVE IN SEPARATION FROM GOD!
SIN IS LITERALLY THINKING YOU ARE A SINNER IN SIN EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW THAT JESUS SAID HE CLEANSED US, SANCTIFIED US AND ORDAINED US!(John15-3—-John1:9—-John17:17—John15:16) TK
Hi TK,A man doesn’t get to decide whether or not he is a a sinner, any more than a speaker
can declare his own words to be truthful. They either are or they are not.The bible teaches that all sinners declare themselves innocent, but then
they are found to be sinners by others. The record of a person’s actions speaks volumes
of their “Righteousness” or lack thereof (I John 3:10). It’s how others view you over time
that matters, not how a person declares themselves without “sin” or “fault” in their thinking.What does perfection in Christ mean?
There is only one way to be perfect and that’s to stop sinning (Matt. 5:44)! This
(I believe) can only be done with the Holy Spirit tabernacleing on the inside (Heb. 8:10).A progression away from the old sinful nature:
1John has a progression away from sin. Starting at 1John 1:8:
“If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves”…
Sinners practice sin!Progressing to 1John 3:9: “Whoever is born of God does not commit sin;
For his seed remainith in him: and he cannot sin (AS A USUAL PRACTICE),
because he is borne of God.”
Practice of sin diminishes!Finishing in 1John 5:18: “We know that whosoever is borne of God SINNETH NOT;
But he that is begotten of God keepeth (GUARDS) himself,
and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.
All sinning STOPS; fulfilling Matt. 5:44!hi ,ed j
i thing you dont understand your on comments ,your statement contredicts the scriptures you quote,
if wath you state is correct then Paul and all the other apostles would be liars,GOD has given you free will you pick you pick rong you volontairy sin.that is freewill.Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 30 2009,15:30) Ed J: Wow I am amazed at what I am reading. I've known the law was fulfilled, completed, and done away with for years. Please understand, the law and the old covenant were functioning up untill John the Baptist. John was teaching the masses of the New way that was comming. The day of the Lord. The sabbath rest was in Jesus. This is the sabbath day. This is the end of the old religious world. They were in sin. Baptism is a symbolic washing away of sin. A new creature in Chirt. A new creation is come. God, the father the son and the holy spirit will now dwell INSIDE human beings. This is the Gospel. This is the good news. A New Covenant built on better promises. Repent, turn around from the old temple worship way that you are going, the NewWay is here. Jesus the Christ is about to manifest to us the New Covenant of God. THE OLD IS FINISHED, THE OLD IS DONE AWAY, THE OLD IS OVER. THIS INCLUDES THE LAW. Jesus didn't come to stay in the law but to fulfill it.(lood up the word translated abolish its the same word used later when they were seeking lodging. He said he did not come to stay in, lodge in or remain in the law) If you are still under the law you are a dead man walking. This is New Covenant 101! The New way, true way to God is within the individual. The Kingdom is within. This was the message of Jesus the Christ. God Bless you, TK
So you think the word “fulfilled means “done away”? Thats funny.Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 01 2009,21:45) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 30 2009,15:30) Ed J: Wow I am amazed at what I am reading. I've known the law was fulfilled, completed, and done away with for years. Please understand, the law and the old covenant were functioning up untill John the Baptist. John was teaching the masses of the New way that was comming. The day of the Lord. The sabbath rest was in Jesus. This is the sabbath day. This is the end of the old religious world. They were in sin. Baptism is a symbolic washing away of sin. A new creature in Chirt. A new creation is come. God, the father the son and the holy spirit will now dwell INSIDE human beings. This is the Gospel. This is the good news. A New Covenant built on better promises. Repent, turn around from the old temple worship way that you are going, the NewWay is here. Jesus the Christ is about to manifest to us the New Covenant of God. THE OLD IS FINISHED, THE OLD IS DONE AWAY, THE OLD IS OVER. THIS INCLUDES THE LAW. Jesus didn't come to stay in the law but to fulfill it.(lood up the word translated abolish its the same word used later when they were seeking lodging. He said he did not come to stay in, lodge in or remain in the law) If you are still under the law you are a dead man walking. This is New Covenant 101! The New way, true way to God is within the individual. The Kingdom is within. This was the message of Jesus the Christ. God Bless you, TK
So you think the word “fulfilled means “done away”? Thats funny.Quote Matthew 5:17-19 (King James Version)
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, till all be [DONE AWAY] (fulfilled).
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.1) Think not – He is telling you not to think what your'e thinking!
2) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: – He is saying he is NOT coming to destroy the LAW or the PROPHETS!
3) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, – TWICE! He is telling you he is NOT destroying the LAW or the PROPHETS, TWICE!
Now comes the line where you say he has done away with the law:
4) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, till all be fulfilled. – Now he told you TWICE so far he has NOT come to DESTROY the LAW or the PROPHETS, how can “FULFILLED” possibly mean to “DESTROY,” or be “DONE AWAY” with? He is telling you NOT to THINK that!
5) For verily [amēn] I say unto you, – He is telling YOU TRUTH!
Amēn – Firm, surely, truly, of a truth, so it is, so be it.
6) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, – Now he is sayinh until heaven and earth PASS AWAY! From now UNTIL the end of time.
7) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass [parerchomai] from the law, – NOT the SMALLEST LETTER or LINE shall PERISH from the LAW!
Parerchomai – To pass away, perish, to pass by (pass over), that is, to neglect, omit, (transgress).
THREE TIMES he tells you in TWO VERSES, THREE TIMES! That the LAW is NOT DESTROYED, DONE AWAY, PERISHED, ABOLISHED, etc. And you insist it is. Jesus with his own words, and you deny them, and you even teach people it is so! Beware of the next verse, he is talking about those who teach what you teach!
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 01 2009,22:44) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 01 2009,21:45) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 30 2009,15:30) Ed J: Wow I am amazed at what I am reading. I've known the law was fulfilled, completed, and done away with for years. Please understand, the law and the old covenant were functioning up untill John the Baptist. John was teaching the masses of the New way that was comming. The day of the Lord. The sabbath rest was in Jesus. This is the sabbath day. This is the end of the old religious world. They were in sin. Baptism is a symbolic washing away of sin. A new creature in Chirt. A new creation is come. God, the father the son and the holy spirit will now dwell INSIDE human beings. This is the Gospel. This is the good news. A New Covenant built on better promises. Repent, turn around from the old temple worship way that you are going, the NewWay is here. Jesus the Christ is about to manifest to us the New Covenant of God. THE OLD IS FINISHED, THE OLD IS DONE AWAY, THE OLD IS OVER. THIS INCLUDES THE LAW. Jesus didn't come to stay in the law but to fulfill it.(lood up the word translated abolish its the same word used later when they were seeking lodging. He said he did not come to stay in, lodge in or remain in the law) If you are still under the law you are a dead man walking. This is New Covenant 101! The New way, true way to God is within the individual. The Kingdom is within. This was the message of Jesus the Christ. God Bless you, TK
So you think the word “fulfilled means “done away”? Thats funny.Quote Matthew 5:17-19 (King James Version)
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, till all be [DONE AWAY] (fulfilled).
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.1) Think not – He is telling you not to think what your'e thinking!
2) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: – He is saying he is NOT coming to destroy the LAW or the PROPHETS!
3) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, – TWICE! He is telling you he is NOT destroying the LAW or the PROPHETS, TWICE!
Now comes the line where you say he has done away with the law:
4) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, till all be fulfilled. – Now he told you TWICE so far he has NOT come to DESTROY the LAW or the PROPHETS, how can “FULFILLED” possibly mean to “DESTROY,” or be “DONE AWAY” with? He is telling you NOT to THINK that!
5) For verily [amēn] I say unto you, – He is telling YOU TRUTH!
Amēn – Firm, surely, truly, of a truth, so it is, so be it.
6) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, – Now he is sayinh until heaven and earth PASS AWAY! From now UNTIL the end of time.
7) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass [parerchomai] from the law, – NOT the SMALLEST LETTER or LINE shall PERISH from the LAW!
Parerchomai – To pass away, perish, to pass by (pass over), that is, to neglect, omit, (transgress).
THREE TIMES he tells you in TWO VERSES, THREE TIMES! That the LAW is NOT DESTROYED, DONE AWAY, PERISHED, ABOLISHED, etc. And you insist it is. Jesus with his own words, and you deny them, and you even teach people it is so! Beware of the next verse, he is talking about those who teach what you teach!
So NOT ALL is FULFILLED until the “HEAVENS and EARTH” pass away!Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 30 2009,18:14) to all
lets clear things up, imperfection is not sin ,it is the sin of ADAM what was transmitted to as and it stands for 'the inability to sustain live,this was taken away from ADAM because of is sin.' now there are two laws one is from GOD the otherone is from Man.or in other words two wills 1)the will of GOD. 2) the will of Man.the bible discribe the will of GOD, everything else is man made (with the help of the devil)there is as well the toughs of GOD and the toughts of Man,why they are people just can't understand what they read,just like the religion leaders in Jesus time,theyr interest lays in other places.to CON
why you dont send the intire bible to each of us but we have it already ,why your quothing are long and only bible verses,no understanding there
There is plenty of understanding there.Quote (katjo @ Oct. 30 2009,17:12) Kraft- sin is not a error of thinking!! That makes no sense. Do you ever do any thing wrong? if you do than its a sin, you repent and ask for forgivness. Try reading this: Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18). Sin really began with Lucifer,who wanted to be higher than God, that was beginning of sin (Isaiah 14:12-15). Renamed Satan, he brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden, where he tempted Adam and Eve with the same enticement, “you shall be like God.” Genesis 3 describes Adam and Eve’s rebellion against God and against His command. Since that time, sin has been passed down through all the generations of mankind and we, Adam’s descendants, have inherited sin from him. Romans 5:12 tells us that through Adam sin entered the world, and so death was passed on to all men because “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).
http://www.gotquestions.org
I like that, understanding!Quote (georg @ Oct. 30 2009,18:29) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 29 2009,22:31) Quote (georg @ Oct. 29 2009,02:52) It seems more of a place for unbelievers to agree with each other. Georg
Who are the unbelievers? Those who disagree with you?
No, those who ignore scripture!Georg
To your interpretation?Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2009,18:53) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 31 2009,00:45) SIN IS NOT BELEIVING THAT YOU ARE CLEANSED AND MADE PERFECT IN GOD. SIN IS THINKING ANYTHING CAN SEPARATE YOU FROM GOD!
SIN IS AN ERROR OF BELIEF.
SIN IS WRONG THINKING—IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE YOU ARE SINLESS, YOU ARE IN SIN! RIGHTEOUSNESS IS STILL BY FAITH AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING!
REJECT YOUR FREE PERFECTION AND LIVE IN SEPARATION FROM GOD!
SIN IS LITERALLY THINKING YOU ARE A SINNER IN SIN EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW THAT JESUS SAID HE CLEANSED US, SANCTIFIED US AND ORDAINED US!(John15-3—-John1:9—-John17:17—John15:16) TK
Hi TK,A man doesn’t get to decide whether or not he is a a sinner, any more than a speaker
can declare his own words to be truthful. They either are or they are not.The bible teaches that all sinners declare themselves innocent, but then
they are found to be sinners by others. The record of a person’s actions speaks volumes
of their “Righteousness” or lack thereof (I John 3:10). It’s how others view you over time
that matters, not how a person declares themselves without “sin” or “fault” in their thinking.What does perfection in Christ mean?
There is only one way to be perfect and that’s to stop sinning (Matt. 5:44)! This
(I believe) can only be done with the Holy Spirit tabernacleing on the inside (Heb. 8:10).A progression away from the old sinful nature:
1John has a progression away from sin. Starting at 1John 1:8:
“If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves”…
Sinners practice sin!Progressing to 1John 3:9: “Whoever is born of God does not commit sin;
For his seed remainith in him: and he cannot sin (AS A USUAL PRACTICE),
because he is borne of God.”
Practice of sin diminishes!Finishing in 1John 5:18: “We know that whosoever is borne of God SINNETH NOT;
But he that is begotten of God keepeth (GUARDS) himself,
and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.
All sinning STOPS; fulfilling Matt. 5:44!
Well put!Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2009,13:53) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 31 2009,00:45) SIN IS NOT BELEIVING THAT YOU ARE CLEANSED AND MADE PERFECT IN GOD. SIN IS THINKING ANYTHING CAN SEPARATE YOU FROM GOD!
SIN IS AN ERROR OF BELIEF.
SIN IS WRONG THINKING—IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE YOU ARE SINLESS, YOU ARE IN SIN! RIGHTEOUSNESS IS STILL BY FAITH AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING!
REJECT YOUR FREE PERFECTION AND LIVE IN SEPARATION FROM GOD!
SIN IS LITERALLY THINKING YOU ARE A SINNER IN SIN EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW THAT JESUS SAID HE CLEANSED US, SANCTIFIED US AND ORDAINED US!(John15-3—-John1:9—-John17:17—John15:16) TK
Hi TK,A man doesn’t get to decide whether or not he is a a sinner, any more than a speaker
can declare his own words to be truthful. They either are or they are not.The bible teaches that all sinners declare themselves innocent, but then
they are found to be sinners by others. The record of a person’s actions speaks volumes
of their “Righteousness” or lack thereof (I John 3:10). It’s how others view you over time
that matters, not how a person declares themselves without “sin” or “fault” in their thinking.What does perfection in Christ mean?
There is only one way to be perfect and that’s to stop sinning (Matt. 5:44)! This
(I believe) can only be done with the Holy Spirit tabernacleing on the inside (Heb. 8:10).A progression away from the old sinful nature:
1John has a progression away from sin. Starting at 1John 1:8:
“If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves”…
Sinners practice sin!Progressing to 1John 3:9: “Whoever is born of God does not commit sin;
For his seed remainith in him: and he cannot sin (AS A USUAL PRACTICE),
because he is borne of God.”
Practice of sin diminishes!Finishing in 1John 5:18: “We know that whosoever is borne of God SINNETH NOT;
But he that is begotten of God keepeth (GUARDS) himself,
and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.
All sinning STOPS; fulfilling Matt. 5:44!
Ed JI think Paul would have liked to know that.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The fact is, we are all sinners, and we all do sin; the difference is, as believers we also know that God will forgive us if we confess our sins and try harder to resist temptation.
Georg
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 02 2009,17:56) Quote (georg @ Oct. 30 2009,18:29) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 29 2009,22:31) Quote (georg @ Oct. 29 2009,02:52) It seems more of a place for unbelievers to agree with each other. Georg
Who are the unbelievers? Those who disagree with you?
No, those who ignore scripture!Georg
To your interpretation?
What is there to interpret? I did not write the scriptures.Georg
Quote (katjo @ Oct. 31 2009,12:12) Kraft- sin is not a error of thinking!! That makes no sense. Do you ever do any thing wrong? if you do than its a sin, you repent and ask for forgivness. Try reading this: Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18). Sin really began with Lucifer,who wanted to be higher than God, that was beginning of sin (Isaiah 14:12-15). Renamed Satan, he brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden, where he tempted Adam and Eve with the same enticement, “you shall be like God.” Genesis 3 describes Adam and Eve’s rebellion against God and against His command. Since that time, sin has been passed down through all the generations of mankind and we, Adam’s descendants, have inherited sin from him. Romans 5:12 tells us that through Adam sin entered the world, and so death was passed on to all men because “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).
http://www.gotquestions.org
Katjo: If sin is an action that someone does or doesn't do then how could Jesus take away the sin of the world? Could he take away our actions? Some say that sin dwells in a man. How can something you do dwell within? Sin is a thought before it can be an action. Some say sin separates us from union with God. How could doing something like stealing separate one from God who is everywhere? Isn't God everywhere? If not everywhere, where is he not? If God is everywhere and there is a hell, then God must also be in Hell! If God is not in hell then hell doesn't exist as a physical place or God isn't everywhere. If you are under the law still, you must follow all aspects of the law including sacrifice! One who follows the law must follow the whole law. Even then there was never perfection in the law or Jesus would not have had to come. If sin started in the Garden of Eden the word was not used in the Bible until the 4th Chap. of Gen. Oh, by the way, satan was not mentioned in the Garden either. Neither satan nor sin was mentioned in the Garden of Eden. The serpent beguiled Eve and she tempted Adam but in both cases believing came before and action. Sin is in the mind. Believing anything you do is against God or separates you from God is sin/errror. Truly if you believe in sin you believe in death and death is what you will experience! TKQuote (georg @ Nov. 02 2009,20:48) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2009,13:53) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 31 2009,00:45) SIN IS NOT BELEIVING THAT YOU ARE CLEANSED AND MADE PERFECT IN GOD. SIN IS THINKING ANYTHING CAN SEPARATE YOU FROM GOD!
SIN IS AN ERROR OF BELIEF.
SIN IS WRONG THINKING—IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE YOU ARE SINLESS, YOU ARE IN SIN! RIGHTEOUSNESS IS STILL BY FAITH AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING!
REJECT YOUR FREE PERFECTION AND LIVE IN SEPARATION FROM GOD!
SIN IS LITERALLY THINKING YOU ARE A SINNER IN SIN EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW THAT JESUS SAID HE CLEANSED US, SANCTIFIED US AND ORDAINED US!(John15-3—-John1:9—-John17:17—John15:16) TK
Hi TK,A man doesn’t get to decide whether or not he is a a sinner, any more than a speaker
can declare his own words to be truthful. They either are or they are not.The bible teaches that all sinners declare themselves innocent, but then
they are found to be sinners by others. The record of a person’s actions speaks volumes
of their “Righteousness” or lack thereof (I John 3:10). It’s how others view you over time
that matters, not how a person declares themselves without “sin” or “fault” in their thinking.What does perfection in Christ mean?
There is only one way to be perfect and that’s to stop sinning (Matt. 5:44)! This
(I believe) can only be done with the Holy Spirit tabernacleing on the inside (Heb. 8:10).A progression away from the old sinful nature:
1John has a progression away from sin. Starting at 1John 1:8:
“If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves”…
Sinners practice sin!Progressing to 1John 3:9: “Whoever is born of God does not commit sin;
For his seed remainith in him: and he cannot sin (AS A USUAL PRACTICE),
because he is borne of God.”
Practice of sin diminishes!Finishing in 1John 5:18: “We know that whosoever is borne of God SINNETH NOT;
But he that is begotten of God keepeth (GUARDS) himself,
and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.
All sinning STOPS; fulfilling Matt. 5:44!
Ed JI think Paul would have liked to know that.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The fact is, we are all sinners, and we all do sin; the difference is, as believers we also know that God will forgive us if we confess our sins and try harder to resist temptation.
Georg
Georg: If you don't believe that Jesus has taken away your sin, then you are in sin! If you believe that Jesus has cleansed you of your sin (John15:3) then you are clean. If you read John17:17 you are sanctified by the words of Jesus. If you don't believe that, you are not.
You said a record of a persons actions speaks volumes of their righteousness. Are you saying then that you are righteous by actions? We both know our only chance at righteousness is by faith is what Jesus said and did!
Perfection in Christ means that he cleansed me and made me whole apart from anything I could do. I believe in his power to cleanse me. By believing in him I am the righteousness of God through Christ. NOT BY MY ACTIONS OR WORKS!! Since Abraham righteousness has been by faith.
To stop sinning one must believe he is cleansed and no longer in sin. To stop sinning, stop believing you are sinning!
We are clean, righteous, and sanctified through Jesus BY FAITH not by actions. TKQuote (georg @ Nov. 02 2009,20:48) Ed J I think Paul would have liked to know that.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The fact is, we are all sinners, and we all do sin; the difference is, as believers we also know that God will forgive us if we confess our sins and try harder to resist temptation.
Georg
You quote Romans Chapter 7 very well, a book written to unbelieving sinners,that Paul chooses to identify with; compare with 1 Cor. 9:22.“To the weak became I as weak (as to the Roman sinners), that I might gain the weak:
I am made all things to all [men], THAT I MIGHT BY ALL MEANS SAVE SOME.”Does this verse mean that Paul does that saving? Of course not; YÄ is “The Savior”=117.
But go to the book of Hebrews, a book written to believers.
Hebrews 11:40: “God having provided some better thing for us, THAT THEY (sinners)
WITHOUT US (believers) SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT.My goal is to teach sinners how to be cleansed from all unrighteousness; not to tell
them they are hopelessly perpetually stuck therein.Are you telling people that God only forgives people in your “Visible Organization”?
With God all things are possible (even to stop sinning).
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 02 2009,17:44) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 01 2009,21:45) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 30 2009,15:30) Ed J: Wow I am amazed at what I am reading. I've known the law was fulfilled, completed, and done away with for years. Please understand, the law and the old covenant were functioning up untill John the Baptist. John was teaching the masses of the New way that was comming. The day of the Lord. The sabbath rest was in Jesus. This is the sabbath day. This is the end of the old religious world. They were in sin. Baptism is a symbolic washing away of sin. A new creature in Chirt. A new creation is come. God, the father the son and the holy spirit will now dwell INSIDE human beings. This is the Gospel. This is the good news. A New Covenant built on better promises. Repent, turn around from the old temple worship way that you are going, the NewWay is here. Jesus the Christ is about to manifest to us the New Covenant of God. THE OLD IS FINISHED, THE OLD IS DONE AWAY, THE OLD IS OVER. THIS INCLUDES THE LAW. Jesus didn't come to stay in the law but to fulfill it.(lood up the word translated abolish its the same word used later when they were seeking lodging. He said he did not come to stay in, lodge in or remain in the law) If you are still under the law you are a dead man walking. This is New Covenant 101! The New way, true way to God is within the individual. The Kingdom is within. This was the message of Jesus the Christ. God Bless you, TK
So you think the word “fulfilled means “done away”? Thats funny.Quote Matthew 5:17-19 (King James Version)
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, till all be [DONE AWAY] (fulfilled).
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.1) Think not – He is telling you not to think what your'e thinking!
2) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: – He is saying he is NOT coming to destroy the LAW or the PROPHETS!
3) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, – TWICE! He is telling you he is NOT destroying the LAW or the PROPHETS, TWICE!
Now comes the line where you say he has done away with the law:
4) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, till all be fulfilled. – Now he told you TWICE so far he has NOT come to DESTROY the LAW or the PROPHETS, how can “FULFILLED” possibly mean to “DESTROY,” or be “DONE AWAY” with? He is telling you NOT to THINK that!
5) For verily [amēn] I say unto you, – He is telling YOU TRUTH!
Amēn – Firm, surely, truly, of a truth, so it is, so be it.
6) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, – Now he is sayinh until heaven and earth PASS AWAY! From now UNTIL the end of time.
7) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass [parerchomai] from the law, – NOT the SMALLEST LETTER or LINE shall PERISH from the LAW!
Parerchomai – To pass away, perish, to pass by (pass over), that is, to neglect, omit, (transgress).
THREE TIMES he tells you in TWO VERSES, THREE TIMES! That the LAW is NOT DESTROYED, DONE AWAY, PERISHED, ABOLISHED, etc. And you insist it is. Jesus with his own words, and you deny them, and you even teach people it is so! Beware of the next verse, he is talking about those who teach what you teach!
Hey Con: You might want to look up the word “destroy” and see that it means, I didn't come to stay or lodge in the law but to fulfill. Its the same greek word that that was used when the disciples went “to find lodging”.Jesus did not abolish the law, he fulfilled it Matt5:17. The law was added until the seed should come (Jesus) Gal. 3:19. The law could not make one perfect. Why would a New Covenant be needed that couldn't do more than the law?
Not a jot or tittle did pass until the law was fulfilled—
Whosoever shall do and teach the law shall be called great in the Kingdom. (The least in the Kingdom is the greatest)
The law cannot make one perfect. The words of Jesus/God can. You choose, but if you follow the law follow the whole law!! TKQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 03 2009,03:28) Quote (georg @ Nov. 02 2009,20:48) Ed J I think Paul would have liked to know that.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The fact is, we are all sinners, and we all do sin; the difference is, as believers we also know that God will forgive us if we confess our sins and try harder to resist temptation.
Georg
You quote Romans Chapter 7 very well, a book written to unbelieving sinners,that Paul chooses to identify with; compare with 1 Cor. 9:22.“To the weak became I as weak (as to the Roman sinners), that I might gain the weak:
I am made all things to all [men], THAT I MIGHT BY ALL MEANS SAVE SOME.”Does this verse mean that Paul does that saving? Of course not; YÄ is “The Savior”=117.
But go to the book of Hebrews, a book written to believers.
Hebrews 11:40: “God having provided some better thing for us, THAT THEY (sinners)
WITHOUT US (believers) SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT.My goal is to teach sinners how to be cleansed from all unrighteousness; not to tell
them they are hopelessly perpetually stuck therein.Are you telling people that God only forgives people in your “Visible Organization”?
With God all things are possible (even to stop sinning).
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi ED,
The book is rather written to saints.Jewish converts like those in Galatia, who were having second thoughts about following Jesus and looking back longingly at the Law.
Check Chapter 1.
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 02 2009,15:17) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 02 2009,17:44) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 01 2009,21:45) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 30 2009,15:30) Ed J: Wow I am amazed at what I am reading. I've known the law was fulfilled, completed, and done away with for years. Please understand, the law and the old covenant were functioning up untill John the Baptist. John was teaching the masses of the New way that was comming. The day of the Lord. The sabbath rest was in Jesus. This is the sabbath day. This is the end of the old religious world. They were in sin. Baptism is a symbolic washing away of sin. A new creature in Chirt. A new creation is come. God, the father the son and the holy spirit will now dwell INSIDE human beings. This is the Gospel. This is the good news. A New Covenant built on better promises. Repent, turn around from the old temple worship way that you are going, the NewWay is here. Jesus the Christ is about to manifest to us the New Covenant of God. THE OLD IS FINISHED, THE OLD IS DONE AWAY, THE OLD IS OVER. THIS INCLUDES THE LAW. Jesus didn't come to stay in the law but to fulfill it.(lood up the word translated abolish its the same word used later when they were seeking lodging. He said he did not come to stay in, lodge in or remain in the law) If you are still under the law you are a dead man walking. This is New Covenant 101! The New way, true way to God is within the individual. The Kingdom is within. This was the message of Jesus the Christ. God Bless you, TK
So you think the word “fulfilled means “done away”? Thats funny.Quote Matthew 5:17-19 (King James Version)
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, till all be [DONE AWAY] (fulfilled).
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.1) Think not – He is telling you not to think what your'e thinking!
2) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: – He is saying he is NOT coming to destroy the LAW or the PROPHETS!
3) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, – TWICE! He is telling you he is NOT destroying the LAW or the PROPHETS, TWICE!
Now comes the line where you say he has done away with the law:
4) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, till all be fulfilled. – Now he told you TWICE so far he has NOT come to DESTROY the LAW or the PROPHETS, how can “FULFILLED” possibly mean to “DESTROY,” or be “DONE AWAY” with? He is telling you NOT to THINK that!
5) For verily [amēn] I say unto you, – He is telling YOU TRUTH!
Amēn – Firm, surely, truly, of a truth, so it is, so be it.
6) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, – Now he is sayinh until heaven and earth PASS AWAY! From now UNTIL the end of time.
7) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass [parerchomai] from the law, – NOT the SMALLEST LETTER or LINE shall PERISH from the LAW!
Parerchomai – To pass away, perish, to pass by (pass over), that is, to neglect, omit, (transgress).
THREE TIMES he tells you in TWO VERSES, THREE TIMES! That the LAW is NOT DESTROYED, DONE AWAY, PERISHED, ABOLISHED, etc. And you insist it is. Jesus with his own words, and you deny them, and you even teach people it is so! Beware of the next verse, he is talking about those who teach what you teach!
Hey Con: You might want to look up the word “destroy” and see that it means, I didn't come to stay or lodge in the law but to fulfill. Its the same greek word that that was used when the disciples went “to find lodging”.Jesus did not abolish the law, he fulfilled it Matt5:17. The law was added until the seed should come (Jesus) Gal. 3:19. The law could not make one perfect. Why would a New Covenant be needed that couldn't do more than the law?
Not a jot or tittle did pass until the law was fulfilled—
Whosoever shall do and teach the law shall be called great in the Kingdom. (The least in the Kingdom is the greatest)
The law cannot make one perfect. The words of Jesus/God can. You choose, but if you follow the law follow the whole law!! TK
“to lodge,” is used two times, see Luk 9:12 and Luk 19:7.It is not used for lodging in Matt 5:17
Matthew 5:17 is Verb, Strong's Number: 2647, Greek: kataluo: Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive.
Not nice to try and be deceptive.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 03 2009,11:44) Hi ED,
The book is rather written to saints.Jewish converts like those in Galatia, who were having second thoughts about following Jesus and looking back longingly at the Law.
Check Chapter 1.
Hi Nick,We are called to a higher calling than to just merely keep the 10 commandments.
We are called to live a perfect sin free life.Eph. 4:13: “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of
the Son of God, UNTO A PERFECT MAN, unto the measure of the stature of the
fullness of Christ (Christ’s fullness was to live a sin free life).” Eph.4:31 tells us how.Eph. 4:31: “Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking,
be put away from you, with all malice:” Another description of how to be perfect
is found in Col. 3:8-9…Col. 3:8-9: “But now (in order to be perfect) put off all these: anger, wrath, malice,
blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9: Lie not one to another,
seeing that you have put off the old (sinful) man WITH HIS DEEDS.If you can control your tongue you are indeed perfect!
Hebrews 11:40: “God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us
should not be made perfect.” James 2:3 says …“If any man offend not in word
(according to others), the same is a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole
body (of believers). Prob.15:4 “A wholesome tongue [is] a “TREE OF LIFE”: but
perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycityblblecode.org
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