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Quote (Rudy @ April 27 2005,01:56) I'm here and willing to listen.
Then Rudy,
Please start then with reading the beautiful exposition of John 1 by our gracious Spiritfilled sister cubes?However I fear you will again demonstrate that your argument is with the Spirit of God who inspired that book.
However I give up on no one. God never gave up on this sinner.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 26 2005,14:50) Nick, As usual Nick, you are not answering simple questions. It's amazing how you and T8 turn simple questions into mystical semantic gymnastics. Here's the question for you again:
If you wish to deny that for you there are two gods, then tell me for you who is not God. Yeshua or Yahweh?
I will not ask the question again, because your answer, or lack thereof will speak for itself.
You wrote:
Quote The first scripture says the Jesus was not originally flesh. He existed prior to that event. Then he “came IN the flesh” You are reading a lot into one word. Your interpretation of that scripture stems from your misunderstanding that a spirit being can also be a natural being. However, the two states of existence are mutually exclusive. You can not be both eternal and mortal.
I will leave it at that, as it is evident that we will not come into agreement on this.
Hi WIT,
Why do you prefer me not to reply with scripture telling you exactly what I believe in? Why would you prefer my human words to the sacred words of scripture? Does that not remind you of what Jesus said to the pharisees who preferred their teachings and traditions to the word of God?This is still my answer. Why will you not reply to the question I asked? Do you accept this word is true?
1 Cor 8.4f
” …there is no other God but one. For even if there are so called gods ,whether in heaven or on earth [as there are meny gods and many lords] yet for us there is one God, the Father ,of whom are all things and we for Him;and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live”
Jas 2.19
” You believe that there is one God. You do well”Do you believe scripture cannot be broken? Then you must try to reconcile these scriptures.
God is One.For us there is one God.
There is no other God but one.
There is for us one Lord Jesus Christ.
But there are many gods and many lords.TRUE??
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2005,01:54) Sorry Rudy,
There is plenty already written on this subject by me and others that you can research for yourself. He is the Son of God.If there was any evidence you were open to the truth in this matter I would never stop writing. But all the evidence points to you having a set doctrine and you only write to defend it, not being open to learning but being unteachable.
Dont you think its fair that you allow Rudy to scrutinise your theology to the same extent that you have scrutinised his. Im surprised you didnt front up.Welcome guest,
How about you share your gleanings with us rather than taking the moral high ground here? Why hide in the shadows?Quote (Rudy @ April 26 2005,21:48) So Cubes, as you understand it there are more than one God. The Most High and the Word. The Word was your Creator, became your Savior in the flesh.
But Yahweh says He ALONE is your God and Creator. He ALONE is your Redeemer. There is NO God beside Him!
Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD (Yahweh) our God is one LORD (Yahweh): 5 And thou shalt love the LORD (Yahweh) thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Isaiah 44:6 – Thus saith the LORD (Yahweh) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
I am preaching the ONLY Gospel. Take ALL the Scriptures. Jesus is God, but He is ONE with God, and pre-incarnation His name was and is “The Word of God”.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Oh, and John also wrote the testimony in Revelations by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, his testimony is TRUE!
Pre-incarnate Christ is “The Word of God” and was with the God and they two are Yahweh, the MOST HIGH GOD
Rudy
Hi Rudy,Just to be clear, I have but one God besides whom there is no other, and no one is equal to him. That is The Most High God, the God of Christ. I have one Lord given to me by My God, and that is Christ Jesus.
You are right, in that the Word of God is Christ.
You disagree that Proverbs 8 refers to Christ. No matter, wisdom is an integral part of speech… or should be. And God's words are wisdom as I am sure you will agree. So, wisdom is an integral aspect of speech. Even in animals that do not speak, we see glimpses of this wisdom at work.
1. Word of God. What that means to me is that the Word belongs to God. He spoke them. Had he chosen to be silent, the word would not have come forth. His ability to speak or be silent was entirely in his control. He existed before his speech because he couldn't have uttered his speech otherwise.
2. Word of God. There is wisdom in God's Word for in wisdom he made everything. And this is what is written concerning wisdom:
Proverbs 8: 22 “The Lord formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. 23 I was appointed in ages past, at the very first, before the earth began. 24 I was born before the oceans were created, before the springs bubbled forth their waters. 25 Before the mountains and the hills were formed, I was born-26 before he had made the earth and fields and the first handfuls of soil.
New Living Translation.I am not asking you to believe that Jesus is Proverbs 8…but I am saying that Jesus is the Word/Logos/Speech/Wisdom. God spoke Words in Wisdom and creation appeared (the creation shows forth his glory and wisdom), and Proverbs 8 indicates that it was the Maker of heaven and earth who formed or possessed wisdom from the beginning.
Words do not speak themselves. Someone delivers them. That someone who spoke the Word is the Most High God, YWHW.
So now you say Jesus is YWHW.
And I say, can you be your own father and son? (Romans 1:20, Psalm 2:7) And for that matter, can you be the speaker and the word spoken?I believe that the fact that he is called the the Word OF God is significant, don't you?
Quote (t8 @ April 26 2005,22:35) But certainly Jesus had fellowship with his disciples but amongst it all the Pharisees were often there to oppose him. They were threatened by Jesus because Jesus had the truth and they had wickedness in their hearts. Jesus even said that as they did to him, they will do to us if we are of him.
Well, I am grateful for your website and those like it where in spite of such strong opposition, those who wish to discuss and look further into these issues can gather. I pray that the Lord increases our fellow laborers for the harvest is ripe.Be encouraged and strengthened in the Lord Jesus.
Cubes,
What you say makes sense to a degree. However, I do not believe that the Most High God ever was or ever will be MUTE! So by that token God is in Christ and Christ in God! The two are one and inseperable. So the Word cannot act aside from Yahweh and ALL of Yahwehs' Creation is by the Word. So to try and seperate them is again ludicrous. They are the same.
So by the same token we are not the definers of the nature of God. I believe that the entire discourse of Proverbs 8 possibly refers to the entire plan of creation itself or one of the seven spirits of God. For without a vision the people perish, it seems more likely to me that that is what the wisdom is, the entire plan, seeing the end of a thing from its' beginning.
Isaiah 11:2 – And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD…
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Just so we all agree, I trust noone in this forum is trying to say that The Son of God was one of the “sons of God” referred to in Genesis and Job, for those are clearly angels, and I would hope that noone here honestly believes that Christ was an angel.
——————
edit Re. Proverbs 8:After further meditation it can be none other than the spirit of wisdom, for it may be imparted to anyone who asks,
1 Corinthians 12:8 – For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
Luke 7:35 – But wisdom is justified of all her children.
Quote (Rudy @ April 27 2005,17:52) Cubes, What you say makes sense to a degree. However, I do not believe that the Most High God ever was or ever will be MUTE! So by that token God is in Christ and Christ in God! The two are one and inseperable. So the Word cannot act aside from Yahweh and ALL of Yahwehs' Creation is by the Word. So to try and seperate them is again ludicrous. They are the same.
So by the same token we are not the definers of the nature of God. I believe that the entire discourse of Proverbs 8 possibly refers to the entire plan of creation itself or one of the seven spirits of God. For without a vision the people perish, it seems more likely to me that that is what the wisdom is, the entire plan, seeing the end of a thing from its' beginning.
Isaiah 11:2 – And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD…
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Just so we all agree, I trust noone in this forum is trying to say that The Son of God was one of the “sons of God” referred to in Genesis and Job, for those are clearly angels, and I would hope that noone here honestly believes that Christ was an angel.
——————
edit Re. Proverbs 8:After further meditation it can be none other than the spirit of wisdom, for it may be imparted to anyone who asks,
1 Corinthians 12:8 – For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
Luke 7:35 – But wisdom is justified of all her children.
Hi Rudy,
So now you say Yahweh and Yeshua are one and the SAME Is this a changed belief because you have denied this twice or more times in the past?Jesus is the firstborn Son of God. Of course he is one of the sons of God. God has a family and every family on earth takes it's name from that fact.
The Son of God is separate from his Father. He came in the flesh and lived on earth while the Father was in heaven. Even then he was in the Father as he was in His will and acted in His name. And he was filled with the Father's Spirit so the Father was in him. So can we be and enjoy the same bebnfits.
It is true the others are archangels in whose creation he was involved. He, the only begotten Son, existed before them so but have been in their presence in heaven.
Hi Rudy,
I do not need to be able to understand and explain it. All I know is that the Son of God was begotten FROM the Father and was WITH HIM.Hi Rudy,
What does scripture say?It says he is begotten and nothing exists that was not created through him.
That's enough for me.Ok,
sorry for the short answers, I'm still at work and do not have unlimited time to discuss, I'm doing what I can.
Rudy
Nick,
What then was Christs' role in creation since in fact all things that exist (Yahweh excluded) were created by Him and for Him and that by Him all things are upheld?
Specifically, what did He do?
Quote (Rudy @ April 27 2005,17:52) Cubes, What you say makes sense to a degree. However, I do not believe that the Most High God ever was or ever will be MUTE! So by that token God is in Christ and Christ in God! The two are one and inseperable. So the Word cannot act aside from Yahweh and ALL of Yahwehs' Creation is by the Word. So to try and seperate them is again ludicrous. They are the same.
The question is not whether or not YHWH is mute, but whether he has control over his words?Do you remember the period b/n the old and new testament when people didn't hear from God?
But you are right in that God is in Christ and Christ is in God. They are one. But so too has Christ invited US who believe to partake of that Unity through him, according to the will of the Father. This is a critical point b/n your understanding of God and mine. I see Father & Son in unity though the Father by plain understanding is greater, being the one who begat and from whom the son receives. You seem to see a literal single individual who is both his own father and son at the same time which is unscriptural. You otherwise seem to have a zeal for God and I should be pleased to call you my brother when we worship the same God.
Secondly, HIS word(s) accomplish(es) HIS will. The scriptures teach no differently concerning Christ or the Holy Spirit.
Regarding whether or not Christ is angelic, I cannot speak to that. It is none of my business what, if anything, he might have been before the Father begat him in the beginning. My knowledge of him begins there: At the place where his father begat him and he was in the bosom of his father before the world began.
I only know him as the scriptures point him out to clearly be.
Hi Rudy,
This is what scripture says
Coll 1.14
” His beloved son…
..And he is the image of the invisible God ,the firstborn of all creation. For in him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisble, whether throne or dominionsor rulers or authorities-all things have been created through him and for him.
And he is before all things and in him all things hold together”Hebrews 1.2
“In these last days He has spoken to us in His son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And he is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power”God delegates everything. He delegated creation to be through the work of His only begotten Son.
Quote (Rudy @ April 28 2005,00:00) Nick, What then was Christs' role in creation since in fact all things that exist (Yahweh excluded) were created by Him and for Him and that by Him all things are upheld?
Specifically, what did He do?
For one thing we are told that:1. He is the express image of the Father.
2. He is the branch, and one who came to reconcile mankind to God and ever lives to make intercession for us.
3. Also that as the Word of God, all things were made through him.
4. He is the heir of God, and co-heirs with us.
5. He is the worthy, holy Lamb of God
6. He is the Lord of Creation and the Firstborn of creation.
7. The Way, the Truth and the Life to the Father…
8. He has the unique classification of being the only begotton son of God
9. And he is the Son of Man.
10. He is the Bridegroom whom his Father gives into at the Wedding Feast….Just a few things off the top of my head.
As for the Father's role? He brought all the above to pass and so much more…
Cubes/Nick,
Who said “let there be light”?
If Christ created all things by the will of the Father and Christs' words accomplish His will and the Fathers' will, Christ “doing” the will of the Father,
Who said “let there be light”?
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