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Quote (Cubes @ April 27 2005,14:03) It's a shame when we can't all sit together and open the bible, reading line upon line, page upon page… when we extract verses to construct our defense of the word. Though it is practical and necessary, it seems to muddle the issue for us, altogether.
I agree Cubes. But even Jesus had the same problem with the Pharisees who were always trying to find fault in him even saying that his Father was Beelzebub.But certainly Jesus had fellowship with his disciples but amongst it all the Pharisees were often there to oppose him. They were threatened by Jesus because Jesus had the truth and they had wickedness in their hearts.
Jesus even said that as they did to him, they will do to us if we are of him.
For those of you who insist that Yeshua is Yahweh, consider these scriptures that show a clear distinction between God, (not just the Father), and Yeshua:
Quote
“And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.” – Luke 2:52“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know…” – Acts 2:22
“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree.” – Acts 5:30
“But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God…” – Acts 7:55
“…that if you confess with your mouth Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” – Romans 10:9
“God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” – 1 Corinthians 1:9
“…that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.” – Ephesians 1:17
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” – 1 Timothy 2:5
“I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels…” – 1 Timothy 5:21
“James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ…” – James 1:1
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants…” – Revelation 1:1
If you replace the name “Jesus” with “God”, these verses make absolutely no sense, particularly the last three.
Whatistrue,
Yeshua laid His glory down when He came in the flesh! While incarnate He is the Son of God!
Hi Rudy,
So “Son of God ” is only another title for the Father of the Son of God?That seems funny because Ephesians 3.15 says every family in heaven and earth derives it's name from the Father. So there is no family relationship between the Father and the Son and every family on earth and and in heaven is then a nonsense. Is that what you see in scripture?
Quote (Rudy @ April 27 2005,18:04) Whatistrue, Yeshua laid His glory down when He came in the flesh! While incarnate He is the Son of God!
Rudy,Your explanation doesn't hold. Even now that Christ is in glory in heaven, he still calls his Father, God.
Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,Revelation 1:6
and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
Never again will he leave it.
I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.Jesus is the son of God today.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2005,23:16) Hi Rudy,
So “Son of God ” is only another title for the Father of the Son of God?That seems funny because Ephesians 3.15 says every family in heaven and earth derives it's name from the Father. So there is no family relationship between the Father and the Son and every family on earth and and in heaven is then a nonsense. Is that what you see in scripture?
Son of God is who Yeshua is since His incarnation. He is the Only “Begotten” of the Father, and so shall ever be, but His name is still “Word of God”:Rev. 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Hi Rudy,
The word says that Yeshua was conceived of the Holy Ghost. But are you saying that is not true but he was conceived in Mary of himself? It sounds strange.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2005,23:38) Hi Rudy,
The word says that Yeshua was conceived of the Holy Ghost. But are you saying that is not true but he was conceived in Mary of himself? It sounds strange.
The Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, Yeshua was conceived at that point (according to the flesh), at birth God in heaven becomes a Father, not just Creator with the Word of God.The Word “became Flesh” and God in heaven “became a Father.
Yeshua, “Yahweh's Salvation”, The reedeemer Yahweh of Hosts became flesh and dwelt among us, was raised and sent by His Father to redeem us.
God (The Word incarnate and the Father in heaven, they are one but not one and the same) redeems man back to Himself. Yeshua rises from the grave and is evermore our High Priest, brother (according to the spirit of adoption), Good Shehpard, owner of the sheep and the pasture.
He is Our Salvation!
Hi Rudy,
So God becomes a father but does not really have a Son as they are the same in substance but have different names?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2005,23:54) Hi Rudy,
So God becomes a father but does not really have a Son as they are the same in substance but have different names?
He is “begotten” according to the Flesh. Prior to that He is The Word of God that is God and with God, they are Yahweh!That is the entire miracle of God's redemption. That The Word (pre-incarnate Yeshua) was willing to leave glory to come and save His own creation!
But His own rejected Him, at least most seem to, I don't know the number, I'm just a servant/brother to the Lord according to the spirit of adoption which is by faith and obedience.
He bacame obedient as a Son and lives evermore as the “Firstborn” of many brethren. It took the Holy incarnate blood of Christ to free man from the wages of sin. Presented in the heavenly tabernacle it cleanses “all who will believe” when coming to Him in simple faith and obedience!
That is why He says there is no greater Love that a man lay down his life, but Christ did it for His own creation!
That's is why I will serve Him and Love Him all the days of my life, He has become our salvation!
I will declare Him to the ends of the age!
Hi Rudy,
So God is a duality of two equal parts. One part decided to come to earth and submitted himself to the other equal part. He worshipped and served the other part of God but was equal to that part. The two parts negotiated with each other to make decisions and neither is ever in true authority over the other.Is this what you believe? It is certainly a new gospel.
We are told in Gal 1 8 if even an angel brings us another gospel “let him be accursed”
Should we believe Paul ?
or you Rudy?I have only spoken according to the scripture, I have not changed their meaning, I ask you to believe what they say and NOT read more in than is ther. for instance:
The Word became Flesh! It does NOT say anywhere that Yeshua was spiritually begotten. It says rather that in the beginning, (Genesis 1:1) God (Yahweh) created heaven and earth.
It is prophesied in the Psalms that a “body” was prepared for Him to become a son!
To contemplate that there were “negotiations” prior to creation is ridiculous.
Hi Rudy,
Ps 2.7
“…thou art My Son. Today I have begotten thee”
” He was in the beginning with God”Jn 1Now we know Yeshua was in the beginning with God and was sent and partook of flesh. He was born of Mary but if this was his begetting [and the word can be used in this way]and he did not exist as separate from the Father prior to this event then you are proposing two things happened then. He became separate from the Father and incarnate at the same time.
Well we know from Job and others that the other sons of god had separate existence and we know that the Son of God was firstborn and unique [or only begotten which implies separation surely]then would he still be part of the Father if that was the case? Could he be sent if he was part of the sender?
Quote (Rudy @ April 27 2005,19:14) I have only spoken according to the scripture, I have not changed their meaning, I ask you to believe what they say and NOT read more in than is ther. for instance: The Word became Flesh! It does NOT say anywhere that Yeshua was spiritually begotten. It says rather that in the beginning, (Genesis 1:1) God (Yahweh) created heaven and earth.
It is prophesied in the Psalms that a “body” was prepared for Him to become a son!
To contemplate that there were “negotiations” prior to creation is ridiculous.
Oh yeah?There is one God the Father. But you deny that. Yet it is not even reference. It is just plain and simple to comprehend. Scripture is very clear about it. Even the natural branches will tell you that YHWH is one.
There is one God the Father. He has a son. The son is like him. What is the problem with that?
Do not even human sons resemble their parents? But would someone's son also be them too. Of course not. Lets not be silly about this. Even our sons are different people. They may be like us and even have our nature for they they came from us, but they are unique people and not to be confused with their father.
So it is that the Word was with God. The Word came from God. The 'word' that came from God was begotten to become the Word. The Word is divine. He has the nature of God.
The Word then became flesh. He partook of the flesh. It was not God who became flesh, it was the Word who became flesh.
Rudy are you saying that Jesus Christ didn't exist before coming to the earth? The antichrist spirit says that Jesus didn't come in the flesh. Jesus came in the flesh, because Jesus is the Word of God and the Word became flesh.
Jesus was the Word of God and is now. He existed with God before creation, he partook of the flesh and now he is seated at God's right hand in glory.
Your doctrine that God came in the flesh is an antichrist doctrine Rudy.
Quote (Rudy @ April 27 2005,00:14) I have only spoken according to the scripture, I have not changed their meaning, I ask you to believe what they say and NOT read more in than is ther. for instance: The Word became Flesh! It does NOT say anywhere that Yeshua was spiritually begotten. It says rather that in the beginning, (Genesis 1:1) God (Yahweh) created heaven and earth.
It is prophesied in the Psalms that a “body” was prepared for Him to become a son!
To contemplate that there were “negotiations” prior to creation is ridiculous.
Hi Rudy,
Is the Word of God part of God in the same way as the Spirit is an expression of God to your way of understanding?If so the Son of God never has separate existence and is of the same substance as the Father? So 'with God' to you means 'part of God'. He never was a Son but only was called that for convenience?
That is the same unrevealed derived teaching that led to the theory of trinity which has less veracity that the theory of Darwin.
It sadly also means for you there is no mediator between God and man, the “man Jesus Christ”.Then since no one can come to the Father except through the mediator there is no way to God you you and your ilk?
You shut the door in your own face but please do not shut it for others by teaching this untruth.
No t8, I will not accept the word “devine”. And nor should I. It is, at best, merely connotative (by your reasoning, that is) and not at all denotative of the being of Jesus. I need a word that denotes the being of Jesus in the same way that the word 'human' denotes ours. This is a legitimate question and I need a legitimate answer.
Where should I land t8?
Sorry Rudy,
There is plenty already written on this subject by me and others that you can research for yourself. He is the Son of God.If there was any evidence you were open to the truth in this matter I would never stop writing. But all the evidence points to you having a set doctrine and you only write to defend it, not being open to learning but being unteachable.
Quote No t8, I will not accept the word “devine”. And nor should I. It is, at best, merely connotative (by your reasoning, that is) and not at all denotative of the being of Jesus. I need a word that denotes the being of Jesus in the same way that the word 'human' denotes ours. This is a legitimate question and I need a legitimate answer. Where should I land t8?
Yes sir, I am on to it.
How high do you want me to jump again?
You said that Jesus is a God being. Why don't you stick with that?
Quote Jesus is a God being I am not arguing with you here, for God creates beings with his nature that is true. Even Christ who is the only begotten of God has the nature and likeness of God. But I suspect that you will twist 'God being' into God (in identity). A God being is the same as a god. When we say the God, we should be referring to the Father.
But if Jesus is God and so is the Father God, then by your definition of 'God being' we now have 2 beings. The Father God being and the Son God being. That being the case, then we have 2 Gods/Almighties. But I thought the thrust of your argument is that there is one God. But we both know deep down that the Trinity is really about 3 not 1. Trinity/tri/triangle/tricycle/ all denote 3. That is what 'tri' means. I teach 1 God, you teach 3.
Yes there are many god beings Is 1:18. But for us there is one God the Father. Even we and the angels are referred to as gods. So your point doesn't appear to say that there is one true God or one original. But that Jesus is a God being just as the Father is.
There are gods and then there is the God. He is the original and all others who are not false gods are images. Jesus is the prototype image of God we were created in the image of God.
Yes Jesus is a god. We are gods. Angels are gods. Even the Father is a god. What kind of god is he? He is the Most High God. The capital letter in God is what we do in English to denote the article (the) in Greek. It means that we are referring to a person. We are gods. Jesus is the mighty god.
The Father is the Divine, Christ is divine and we can partake of the divine nature too. Why because we are sons too and Christ is our brother and God is our Father, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
There are many gods Is 1:18. If one is called by the title 'theos' or 'elohim' it doesn't mean that we are talking about YHWH. This has been said many times. Why can't you understand it. I don't think you lack in intellect. But I do think that your heart is hard and that is what makes you blind and hard of hearing.
But that is what you choose and I respect your decision because it is your right. It is also your right to be a false teacher. But I will defend the truth against lies, as I do not want to be responsible for letting those lies affect those who come here and those who are searching.
As it is written in Colossians 2:2-4
2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,
3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument.So Is 1:18, this is why I cannot accept your teaching as truth. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus came in the flesh. Jesus is the Word of God. He came in the flesh.
God didn't and never will come in flesh. God is not a man. Not even the universe can contain him.
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