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Quote (t8 @ April 25 2005,11:36) I do however think that you are not really interested in the truth.
I am interested in truth t8. And at present I am particlarly interested in this truth: What being is Jesus?Can you supply the true answer please?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 26 2005,01:11) Quote (t8 @ April 25 2005,11:36) Why don't you fill it in Is 1:18. You asked the question.
Sure t8, no problem. My answer:Jesus is a God being.
I have reached this conclusion by this principle: Like begets like kind, and:
These scriptures (a synopsis, not an exhaustive list and in no particular order):
1. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (joh 1:1)2. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (joh 1:18)
3. 8 But of the Son He [The Father] says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9″YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” (Heb 1:8)4. 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, (Isa 9:6, 7)
5. 12“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (Rev 22:12, 13 NIV)
6. 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. (Ti 2:13, 14)7. 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” (joh 20, 27, 28)
OK t8, I have done what you asked and provided you with an answer to my question. Before you take me to task on any of my points can I ask that you please first supply me with the one word I need from you. This is only fair. If Jesus is not a God being, then what kind of being is He?
Rudy, I would also be interested in your answer and reasoning.
Hi Is,
I have no problem with this post and applaud it.Yeshua has divine nature.
He is still the Son of God though, with 'God' being the God of the Israelites.
That Is the Father and the God Jesus and we worship and serve.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2005,22:54) Nick wrote: Quote 1 Jn 4.2 says Jesus Christ “came in the flesh” not “was the flesh”. This scripture calls him by his human name and yet says he partook of flesh. It surely tells us he existed in some another form before he was sent to “come in the flesh”. This is the antichrist test-do you pass it? Yes, Nick, I pass the test. I believe that Yeshua was a flesh and blood human being who became a life giving spirit, unlike the gnostics who believed that Yeshua was only a spirit being. (Look up the history: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html That's what this verse is about.)
You wrote:
Quote Hi WIT,
One God, the God of Jesus in whom I live.You either misunderstand the question or you are intentionally being deceitful. You have stated unambiguously in the past that Yehsua is God and that Yahweh is God, therefore for you there are two gods. If you wish to deny this, then you need to clarify which of the two for you is not God. Yeshua or Yahweh?
By the way…
You wrote:
Quote But Jesus is not worshipped by us in him as that would be silly. He is the head of his body and we honour,bow down to serve him as the hand serves the head. Dictionary says:
Quote Main Entry: 2worship
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -shiped or -shipped; -ship·ing or -ship·ping
transitive senses
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion
intransitive senses : to perform or take part in worship or an act of worship
synonym see REVEREYou contradict yourself in the space of two sentences.
Hi WIT,
The test is the reverse of what you said.
1Jn 4.2
” By this you know the Spirit of God;every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God;and this is the spirit ofthe antichrist…”
1Cor 15.45
“the Last Adam became a life giving spirit”These two scriptures do not mean the same thing do they? I asked about the first and you replied with the second.
The first scripture says the Jesus was not originally flesh. He existed prior to that event. Then he “came IN the flesh”
The second is rather that through his life and death he became the source of his lifegiving Spirit when he returned to his Father and sent that Spirit to us.
Do you agree?
Hi t8,
I'm not harassing you for the sake of it. It's a legitimate question. If you want me to jettison my belief that God is what Jesus is, then you must tell me what He really is. Otherwise you are telling me I have to depart, but not where I should land.
You have to fill in the blank:Jesus is a [here] being.
I'm not going to be posting for a little while….
Take careQuote (Guest @ April 26 2005,21:16) Quote (t8 @ April 25 2005,11:36) I do however think that you are not really interested in the truth.
I am interested in truth t8. And at present I am particlarly interested in this truth: What being is Jesus?Can you supply the true answer please?
Hi Is 1:18,You say that Jesus is a God being because like produces kind. I said that he was a divine being and that answer didn't satisfy you for some reason. But I am going to let you into a little secret. Divine means God and divine means god or godly.
E.g., The Divine is another way to say God and divine is another way to say godly or God's nature.
divine (lowercase) means:
Having the nature of or being a deity.
Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deityE.g., John 1:1 (New International Version)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (the). That article is before all other instances of the word 'God' and 'Logos' in John 1:1. (E.g., the Word, The God.)
There is an understanding among Greek scholars that in Greek sentence construction, if a noun does not have a preceding article, (e.g., the) it should be considered an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative).
Understanding this, many scholars saw the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but didn't make the difference clear regarding identity and nature.
Is Theos in John 1:1c qualitative? The most likely candidate is that the last instance of 'theos' (in John 1:1c) is qualitative. This is true both grammatically and theologically. (Also, if The Logos was God himself, then the verse would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God and no other.) So we have 2 good reasons now for reading the last word 'God' as qualitive.
An example would be when you call someone an angel. This means that we are saying you are like an angel. But if we say you are the Angel, then we are saying that you are an actual and specific angel even to the exclusion of others being that Angel.
Another example would be to say “John is the man,” which identifies John with a definite and particular person of the human race; but if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” To understand this further, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he has the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek, but most translators deem it necessary to add the “a” to complete the thought. So Judas was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn't rule out that Satan is the Devil.
Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil (indefinite), he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, Satan. If a definite meaning were desired the word order would be, 'is the devil'; if an indefinite meaning were desired the word order would be, 'is devil'. Since the word order is, 'devil is', and a form of “I am” comes after the noun, the meaning is qualitative, as it is in John 1:1c.
This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate this passage, “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”
So what kind of being is Jesus? He is a divine being. He is a being with God's nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but the the image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time.
But of course such knowledge is often trampled on by swine and those who wish to distort the truth. They usually think that the word 'theos' and 'elohim' always refer to YHWH. Then they take instances of their choosing to prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.
The word 'theos' and 'elohim' in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word 'theos' or 'elohim', we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God. The Almighty God. The mighty god. A false god. A human. An angel. We must also understand that the word 'theos' proceeded by an article (e.g., the) is talking of a noun and without the article, as an adjective or quality.
Arguments that do not understand the word 'God/god' in it's different contexts are really a waste of time and fruitless. E.g., God and godly are similar but not exactly the same. It is hard to debate with ignorance, but I do believe that a lot of good people come here and they have ears to hear. To them I feel compelled to teach and share. To them I hope to learn the good things that God has given them too.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2005,22:54) You either misunderstand the question or you are intentionally being deceitful. You have stated unambiguously in the past that Yehsua is God and that Yahweh is God, therefore for you there are two gods. If you wish to deny this, then you need to clarify which of the two for you is not God. Yeshua or Yahweh?
Hi WIT,
I neither misunderstood the question nor was being deliberately deceitful. I spoke the truth.I have not said there are two Gods. I have said there are many gods as Paul has told us in 1 Cor 8.5. Do you believe this scripture ,WIT, or is Paul a liar too?
T8,
That sounds like a good point to sell, but, the price is just TOO high!
The incarnate Word of God is not God in and of Himself, so in the context of thought, The Word was with God and was God, the two being inexplicably connected. We are NOT to define the Almighty God, his word is for that, and the words of Christ.
Your explanation that the I AM, statement of Christ is “just words” and that He did'nt really mean to associate Himself with or claim to be God is wrong.
ANY devout Jew with a moderate understanding of Old Testament Scripture reading this would know exactly that Christ IS identifying Himself as the I AM of Exodus 3. Now Jesus was not talking to moderately learned Jews, these were the scholars of the day and they knew exactly what Jesus was implying!
So again, I find your attempt to discredit the Incarnate Word of God as just that to be of the same spirit of the Pharisees.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.
Rudy
Rudy when the men asked Christ if he was Jesus of Nazareth, he answered the same way that you would if someone asked you if you were Rudy (or whatever your name is). You would say something like 'I am'.
We find that these 2 words 'I am' in the New Testament are used by men and angels too. Gabriel says “I am Gabriel”, for example. But he wasn't saying that he was God. To a paranoid conspiracy type he may have been. But the reality is that Gabriel was identifing himself. Plain and simple.
You need to also remember that “I AM” in the Old Testament is a different set of words to these New Testament instances. Different words, different language. It would be like saying that “I am” in English is equating one with God for it is the word used by God in Hebrew. That is simply not true. Many say “I am” in the New Testament just as they say those words today without saying they are God.
If you were watching Mickey Mouse on the Disney channel and Goofy said to Mickey, “are you Mickey Mouse”, am I to assume then that Mickey Mouse is claiming to be God or Mickey Mouse if he answers, “I am”?
Back to the Old Testament we see that it was YHWH that said “I am that I am”. He was saying that he was the ever exisiting one. So his name was actually YHWH.
You will also notice that the Pharisees didn't have a problem with Christ saying “I am” for it was common language. What got up their nose was that he claimed to exist before Abraham ('I am' means 'I exist'). He said “before Abraham I am”. The Pharisees said to him “are you older than Abraham”. That is what they were annoyed about. They didn't say how dare you say that you are God. That is a myth that exists to this day.
To equate the common words “I am” as a claim to be YHWH is indeed a big stretch of the imagination.
Q Are you t8?
A I am.Conclusion: I am (there it goes again) not blaspheming. I am (and again) not saying I am YHWH. I am (and again) saying that I am (and again) t8. I am (not again) answering the question asked of me. This behaviour is very normal and common as you can see.
T8,
You sound an awful lot like the serpant in the Garden.
“Did God really say…”
“He doesn't really mean…”“The word doesn't really say…”
“The word doesn't really mean…”Think about it!
When Jesus said “before Abraham was I AM” He meant it, every word!
Nick,
As usual Nick, you are not answering simple questions. It's amazing how you and T8 turn simple questions into mystical semantic gymnastics. Here's the question for you again:
If you wish to deny that for you there are two gods, then tell me for you who is not God. Yeshua or Yahweh?
I will not ask the question again, because your answer, or lack thereof will speak for itself.
You wrote:
Quote The first scripture says the Jesus was not originally flesh. He existed prior to that event. Then he “came IN the flesh” You are reading a lot into one word. Your interpretation of that scripture stems from your misunderstanding that a spirit being can also be a natural being. However, the two states of existence are mutually exclusive. You can not be both eternal and mortal.
I will leave it at that, as it is evident that we will not come into agreement on this.
According to John 1:1 Jesus is God. A God, to be precise. He is NOT the Most High God.
How many God's do I have over me? who can tell? But my uttermost and exclusive worship is to the Most High God whom Jesus and I worship together.
I give honor to whom honor is due, from my parents to my husband, peers, authorities and what nots. I understand Christ to be above everyone else and so he is highly exalted and I shall bow down before his presence in acknowledgement that he is the SON of the Most High God. It is His Father though that I worship, above whom there is no other.
So, Christ is a God but not the Most High God. I arrived at this conclusion by scripture unbroken.
It's a shame when we can't all sit together and open the bible, reading line upon line, page upon page… when we extract verses to construct our defense of the word. Though it is practical and necessary, it seems to muddle the issue for us, altogether.
John the Apostle penned the gospel of John by the Inspiration of God and as a witness of at least most of the events. I fully accept his testimony and writing. I'd like to examine God and Christ through his eyes…and not just his, but that of the Apostles that are mentioned, including (John) the Baptist who was the greatest of the Prophets according to Christ.
We can begin by reading John Chapter one together: Others can post subsequent chapters if needed. And don't let's forget the entire Epistles of John and Revelation.
While we are at it, let's examine John's own attitude towards Christ.———
John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not *comprehend it.6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That *was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His *own, and His *own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.'”
16 *And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten *Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”
20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”
21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
And he answered, “No.”
22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”
23 He said: “I am'The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Make straight the way of the Lord,”'*as the prophet Isaiah said.”
24 Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. 27 It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.”
28 These things were done in *Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.' 31 I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”
32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”35 Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples. 36 And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, “Behold the Lamb of God!”
37 The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 38 Then Jesus turned, and seeing them following, said to them, “What do you seek?”
They said to Him, “Rabbi” (which is to say, when translated, Teacher), “where are You staying?”
39 He said to them, “Come and see.” They came and saw where He was staying, and remained with Him that day (now it was about the tenth hour).
40 One of the two who heard John speak, and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ). 42 And he brought him to Jesus.
Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of *Jonah. You shall be called Cephas” (which is translated, A Stone).43 The following day Jesus wanted to go to Galilee, and He found Philip and said to him, “Follow Me.” 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote–Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
46 And Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?”
Philip said to him, “Come and see.”
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!”
48 Nathanael said to Him, “How do You know me?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.”
49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
50 Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you, 'I saw you under the fig tree,' do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” 51 And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter* you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”John 1:1-5: Twice John says the word was WITH God. So it is clear that The word being another God, was with the main GOD who is the bulwark of these verses. Jesus being the person with the spotlight whom John wants to tell us about. All the things that are said in these verses can be verified elsewhere in the scriptures, for better clarification, and we should do that, though not at this time.
John 1:6-9: Introduction to John the baptist. He came to bear witness to the True Light, Jesus Christ. The True Light is not the Father of Lights (James), but the Son of the Father of Lights.
John 1:10-13 Christ came to the world that was made through him, unto his own, and was not received by most. (He came to the world that was made through him, he came to mankind that were made through him, he came to man whose nature he partook and for whom he would die, he came to Israel who are his people and almost all rejected him). But to those who received him, he gave the RIGHT/POWER to become sons of God. *He told us that he has been given all power and authority for the mission that he was sent to do.
John 1:14: This Word/God that was with the Father in the beginning became one of us, those who knew him beheld his glory and we believe the testimony and what is written of him and may have even experienced some ourselves. What sort of glory is it? “the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” Not the glory of the Father, but of the only begotten of the Father. Let's stay with that thought. Here in this verse, John clarifies verse 1 beyond any doub
t.John 1:15-16: (John) The Baptist bore witness and cried out, “This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.” Now if this is the Most High God of Heaven, would we expect John the Baptist to have said that and behaved in the same manner? In this statement, he acknowledges the greatness of Christ without for once mistaking him to be the Most High God.
John 1:17: This is that portion in the Song of Moses and of the Lamb in Revelation 15. Also, notice that Moses is not God but a prophet of God. Christ is not the Most High God but the Son of God. They are mentioned as those whom God used to make his judgments and grace manifest to us. If John 1:1 means a 2 in 1 God, then should we not have this comparative scripture with Christ and Moses who both are God's, but one is greater with a better covenant. Scripture must remain unbroken. This verse must tie in to John 1:1 and still make sense, and this is how it makes sense to me.
The Father would not be compared to Moses. After all, Moses was a prophet of God and not an enemy.John 1:18: Aaah…”No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten *Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.”
No One has seen God at any time.
The Only begotten Son in the bosom of the Father, He has declared him. If John 1:1 means 2 in 1 then who was Jesus declaring, Himself? Why not just say I am the Father, the Most High God and be done with it? No, Jesus came to DECLARE him, in other words, to tell us about him and reconcile us to him. Two persons. One is unseen, the other is seen and declares the one whom only he has seen. Are they the same and equal? The answer was given already in multiple places of this chapter but it would get clearer, I am sure.John 1:19-23:So they came to find out whether or not John the Baptist was the Christ, and he said he was not but quoted Isaiah, and said, “I am
'The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Make straight the way of the Lord,'*
As the Prophet Isaiah said.”Modem Mouth and liljon and others brought this up and I believe it is a very valid point worth studying further. I don't have all the answers, having just began to gain some insight into this. I shall have to read Isaiah for better understanding of this and perhaps it is better to wait until then to say more on this portion.
In any case, John is quoting Isaiah. Those are not HIS statements. It could be a fulfillment of the prophets words (as I had always taken for granted to mean) or a relevant example of the prophet Isaiah's words: In much the same way we quote scripture to make our point. I suspect now that it is the latter and one of the reasons why is in the following verses:
John 1:24-27 Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. 27 It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.”Now he gives them that quote by Isaiah to explain what his role is, he has told them that he is not the Christ. And they ask him, “why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ?…” And he goes on to explain further. His explanation doesn't equate Christ with the Most High God or claim them to be the same person…2 or 3 in 1. Just One who is preferred before him whose sandal strap he is unworthy to loose. That is not the attitude one is expected to have towards the Most High God, however exalting. At this point, John should simply have told them, this is our God and maker whom we worship. Not, “he is preferred before me…” WHO PREFERS HIM before John?
And back to the question of the pharisees. Why ask him why he is baptizing if he is not Christ… after he'd said he wasn't and had quoted Isaiah?
This suggests to me that they expected Christ to be baptizing and playing a similar role to John. Also, who is “the Prophet?” I don't know. The Jews still seem to expect that Prophet.
John 1:28-31: Again, John the Baptist should have affirmed that Christ is GOD (the Most High God) if this is what John 1:1 means, but he does not. He affirms the Lamb OF GOD.
John 1:32-34: What more needs to be said? “I did not know Him, but HE WHO SENT ME to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' 34
And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”How say you that he is other than the Son of God? Why read what is not intended into John 1:1? If as we believe, John is the one sent to bear witness of the Light of the World, then why don't you receive his testimony? Is it not good enough? What will it take? The Father's testimony? The Holy Spirit already testified in that verse by alighting on the Son of God.
John 1:35-50: Same scenario: “Behold the Lamb of God.”
John lost two disciples that day after pointing out the Christ to them. What a guy!…
“We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ). 42 And he brought him to Jesus.
NOT “We have found the Most High God/YHWH/Father” but rather the Messiah.And also Phillip said to Nathanael: “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote–Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
Why do you believe and preach a different gospel?
Sorry about the long post but my heart yearns for you that you should believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ just as it was written and handed to us.
May God bless you all.
(edited grammar only for clarification, not content 4.30.05: Cubes)
So Cubes,
as you understand it there are more than one God. The Most High and the Word. The Word was your Creator, became your Savior in the flesh.
But Yahweh says He ALONE is your God and Creator. He ALONE is your Redeemer. There is NO God beside Him!
Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD (Yahweh) our God is one LORD (Yahweh): 5 And thou shalt love the LORD (Yahweh) thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Isaiah 44:6 – Thus saith the LORD (Yahweh) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
I am preaching the ONLY Gospel. Take ALL the Scriptures. Jesus is God, but He is ONE with God, and pre-incarnation His name was and is “The Word of God”.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Oh, and John also wrote the testimony in Revelations by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, his testimony is TRUE!
Pre-incarnate Christ is “The Word of God” and was with the God and they two are Yahweh, the MOST HIGH GOD
Rudy
Quote (Rudy @ April 27 2005,07:52) T8, You sound an awful lot like the serpant in the Garden.
“Did God really say…”
“He doesn't really mean…”“The word doesn't really say…”
“The word doesn't really mean…”Think about it!
When Jesus said “before Abraham was I AM” He meant it, every word!
Yes that is true, he meant every word of it. He did exist before Abraham. That is what 'I am' means. It means 'I exist”. The Jews even had a problem with these words. What problem?That he existed before Abraham. That is what riled them. But if Jesus was claiming to be YHWH, you would assume that that would have been the problem instead. For what would have been the greater to the mind of a Pharisee? To say that you existed before Abraham or to say that you are YHWH? Think about it and look at the Pharisees reaction carefully and you will see the truth.
Rudy if you seek the truth, you take the scripture as it is. But if you are under the influence of a certain philosophy, then scripture is nothing but a tool that can be used to back your philosophy.
You accuse me on being led by the Serpent. You know they did that to Christ too. They said that he cast out demons by Beelzebub. Who are 'they'. The religious minded who knew not God.
But if I am lead by the Spirit of God and you say it is the Serpent, then that actually offends God. You should be careful Rudy. If you continue to accuse, you might find yourself fighting against God himself and on the side of the accuser. This was clearly demonstrated with the Pharisees and they were rebuked strongly Christ.
Hi Cubes,
Thanks for your post. It is certainly clear why John wrote his gospel. The conclusion that John came to is not the conclusion that men came to with their creeds. As you are fully aware there is a difference between what men say and what the Apostle said.
John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse can also be found in 1 John 1:1-2
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.
So when we read 1 John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John 1:1b is the Father himself.
Further more John said so clearly himself in John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.“Yet even considering John's own words, we still see people twisting the truth to say that John was saying that Jesus was God/YHWH.
We certainly live in a world of deception and just as we can see God through that which he has made, we can also see the enemy of God by the things that he has done within humanity.
God made man in his own image. It is sad but true that many men do the work of the enemy though. They come against the truth and try to undo the works and reason why Christ came to us.
Christ came to us to destroy the works of the enemy. The enemy is the Father of all lies. Jesus is the truth. By this we know what kind of works we are building and who we are serving.
I am not questioning your salvation, You have one judge and that is Christ.
Christ rebuked Peter on more than one occasion for being of the wrong spirit.
Matt 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Luke 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
I believe the scriptures, and they all line up perfectly to this:
Isaiah 44:6 – Thus saith the LORD (Yahweh) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
The Lord and his Redeemer are Yahweh! It is that simple!
Rudy
Quote (Rudy @ April 27 2005,17:00) So T8 and Nick, I guess that makes you polytheists then, am I correct?
Oh no, how many times have I heard this accusation.Rudy if you understood the following scripture, you wouldn't have asked this qustion.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.This scripture is the answer to your question if you are willing to see it. But if your heart is hardened, then you may not.
Quote (Rudy @ April 27 2005,17:19) Christ rebuked Peter on more than one occasion for being of the wrong spirit.
Rudy,When Peter said the following “”You are the Christ, the Son of the living God”, what did Jesus say?
Matthew 16:13-17
17 Jesus replied “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.Was Peter in the wrong spirit on that occassion. Of course he wasn't. His confession was inspired by God himself and Jesus commended Peter.
What was his confession? It was that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. This is what I believe. It is also what Cubes and Nick believe for I have heard their testimony and it is the same as Peter's.
But your testimony is quite different. You say that Jesus is God himself. Yet when Peter was asked who Jesus was, you would think that Peter would have said your confession if it were true. But he most certainly did not.
We believe that which the Father gave to Peter. You appear to have a differing belief.
So Rudy is it possible that you are indeed the one who is of the wrong spirit. Could that be possible? You need to be open to this possibility Rudy. I am certainly not questioning your salvation as it is not for me to make such judgements. But can I suggest that you look at the evidence and ask yourself why your belief is different.
Remember that Jesus came in the flesh. It wasn't God. Jesus is the Christ and the son of the living God. Jesus came from God. This is the true message and an essential part of the true gospel.
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