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To all,
“I used to believe like the Jehovah Witnesses that Jesus was not God. Then certain linguistic facts were revealed to me. Rather than get offended and discard the Peshitta, I took the Peshitta meanings, the linguistic facts, to heart.”
who being the effulgence of His glory and the exact expression of His substance, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
t8 and nick Jesus is The EXACT representation of God the Father.Hi Liljon,
Yes the image.
But no image is as great as,
or also still part of
that which it reflects
and sits alongside is it?Quote (Guest @ July 06 2005,02:57) To all, “I used to believe like the Jehovah Witnesses that Jesus was not God. Then certain linguistic facts were revealed to me. Rather than get offended and discard the Peshitta, I took the Peshitta meanings, the linguistic facts, to heart.”
OK FYII have across this info before so I think I know where you are coming from …
I assume that you have access to this Peshitta translation so please answer the following questions …
1) In Mark 12:36-37, the word 'Lord' appears 3 times
Which Aramaic word(s) are used in the translation for these 3 occurrences?2) Which Aramaic word is used for 'lord' in Matt 10:24?
3) Which Aramaic word is used for 'lord' in Matt 18:31?
4) Which Aramaic word is used for 'sir' in Matt 21:30?
5) Which Aramaic word is used for 'Sir' in Matt 27:63?
6) Which Aramaic word is used for 'Sir' in John 4:11, 15, 19?
7) Which Aramaic word is used for 'Sir' in John 12:21?
8) Which Aramaic word is used for 'Sir' in John 20:15?
9) Which Aramaic word is used for 'Sirs' in Acts 16:30?
10) Which Aramaic word is used for 'Sir' in Rev 7:14?
I am very intrigued to know the answers to these questions.
From these answers, I will know which direction to go?Thanks
1Corinthians 8:6:
KJV: “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
Lamsa: “To us there is one God, the Father, from whom comes every thing and by whom we live; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
Now why is this title “Alaha Abba”, “God the Father”, rendered here as “God, the Father”? Perhaps it is to conceal something. Lamsa for example, is infamous for “concealing” Divinity issues, as we saw with the “MarYah” examples.
Let's look at the context:
1Corinthians 8:5-6 [Lamsa]
For though there are those that are called gods, whether in heaven or earth, just as there are many gods and many lords, To us there is one God, the Father, from whom comes every thing and by whom we live; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
It would be more consistent to place the comma after “one”, so that it reads “to us there is one, Alaha Abba”. The context then makes clear that the “one” refers to God. e.g. “to us there is one God, Alaha Abba”. This fits perfectly with verse 5 and is consistent with the rest of the New Testament that identifies “Alaha Abba” as the sacred title of God, “God the Father”. Critics may say that placing the comma after “God”, so that it reads “to us there is one god, Alaha Abba” is more consistent as then it is paralleled to the second half of verse 6 which would then say “and one lord, Jesus Christ”. However, this parallel is not an issue as the word for “lord” in verse 5 is not the same as in verse 6. In verse 5 it has: “and many lords (Fwrmw)”. Verse 6 doesn't have this word; it has 0yrm “MarYah”, which as discussed is a title of God, often applied to Yeshua.
Now that we have established that the verse talks of “Alaha Abba”, “God the Father”, what does it say? It says that “God the Father” is our only one. Only one what? Our only God (verse 5, the preceding verse, talks of gods – presumably false gods). Now here we have a direct quote from the Bible that the only true God is “Alaha Abba”, “God the Father”. Yeshua now enters the picture. If Yeshua is God, of which there is only one true, does that mean that He must then also be “Alaha Abba”, “God the Father”, the one true God, or that He is a false god?
The translation of the Aramaic from Etheridge agrees that there should be no separation of “Alaha” and “Abba” in this passage. “Alaha Abba” is a sacred title of God, which is proven by the many other appearances of it in the Peshitta New Testament, and its use by Semitic-language speakers.
Etheridge: “For there are also who are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, as that there are gods many and lords many: but to us our One is Aloha the Father, of whom are all, and we in him; and one LORD (MarYah) Jeshu Meshiha, by whom are all, and we by him.”
Note: “Aloha” is an alternative pronunciation of “Alaha”.
http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/Online_Version/doctrine.htm
If you want to make a point do your own research. Paul makes it VERY clear who Christ is to us!
To all;
I can no longer maintain my responsibilities and continue posting on HN. So I bid you all farewell, and pray you all come to know Christ and the Father:
John 17:3 – And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 Corinthians 12:3 – Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the LORD (MarYah=YHWH), but by the Holy Ghost.
Philippians 2:10 – That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD (MarYah=YHWH), to the glory of God the Father.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Be Well!
Quote (Guest @ July 08 2005,01:46) 1Corinthians 8:6: KJV: “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
Lamsa: “To us there is one God, the Father, from whom comes every thing and by whom we live; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”
Now why is this title “Alaha Abba”, “God the Father”, rendered here as “God, the Father”? Perhaps it is to conceal something. Lamsa for example, is infamous for “concealing” Divinity issues, as we saw with the “MarYah” examples.
Let's look at the context:
1Corinthians 8:5-6 [Lamsa]
For though there are those that are called gods, whether in heaven or earth, just as there are many gods and many lords, To us there is one God, the Father, from whom comes every thing and by whom we live; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
It would be more consistent to place the comma after “one”, so that it reads “to us there is one, Alaha Abba”. The context then makes clear that the “one” refers to God. e.g. “to us there is one God, Alaha Abba”. This fits perfectly with verse 5 and is consistent with the rest of the New Testament that identifies “Alaha Abba” as the sacred title of God, “God the Father”. Critics may say that placing the comma after “God”, so that it reads “to us there is one god, Alaha Abba” is more consistent as then it is paralleled to the second half of verse 6 which would then say “and one lord, Jesus Christ”. However, this parallel is not an issue as the word for “lord” in verse 5 is not the same as in verse 6. In verse 5 it has: “and many lords (Fwrmw)”. Verse 6 doesn't have this word; it has 0yrm “MarYah”, which as discussed is a title of God, often applied to Yeshua.
Now that we have established that the verse talks of “Alaha Abba”, “God the Father”, what does it say? It says that “God the Father” is our only one. Only one what? Our only God (verse 5, the preceding verse, talks of gods – presumably false gods). Now here we have a direct quote from the Bible that the only true God is “Alaha Abba”, “God the Father”. Yeshua now enters the picture. If Yeshua is God, of which there is only one true, does that mean that He must then also be “Alaha Abba”, “God the Father”, the one true God, or that He is a false god?
The translation of the Aramaic from Etheridge agrees that there should be no separation of “Alaha” and “Abba” in this passage. “Alaha Abba” is a sacred title of God, which is proven by the many other appearances of it in the Peshitta New Testament, and its use by Semitic-language speakers.
Etheridge: “For there are also who are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, as that there are gods many and lords many: but to us our One is Aloha the Father, of whom are all, and we in him; and one LORD (MarYah) Jeshu Meshiha, by whom are all, and we by him.”
Note: “Aloha” is an alternative pronunciation of “Alaha”.
http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/Online_Version/doctrine.htm
If you want to make a point do your own research. Paul makes it VERY clear who Christ is to us!
Hi FYI,
Certainly such adjustments make it easier to preach your false gospel.
However those who have the Spirit will have learned from your teachings not what is truth but more how to avoid falling into your errors.Quote (Guest @ July 08 2005,02:14) To all; I can no longer maintain my responsibilities and continue posting on HN. So I bid you all farewell, and pray you all come to know Christ and the Father:
John 17:3 – And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 Corinthians 12:3 – Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the LORD (MarYah=YHWH), but by the Holy Ghost.
Philippians 2:10 – That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD (MarYah=YHWH), to the glory of God the Father.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Be Well!
Hi,
Yes Christ and the Father are separate
but united in every possible way except their being.The Almighty Father and God of Jesus Christ anointed The victorious Son of God.
Quote (Guest @ July 06 2005,02:57) To all, “I used to believe like the Jehovah Witnesses that Jesus was not God. Then certain linguistic facts were revealed to me. Rather than get offended and discard the Peshitta, I took the Peshitta meanings, the linguistic facts, to heart.”
Hi,
Trinitarians state without scriptural proof that God is three persons.
Oneness followers instead say God has three manifestations.Both deny the individual reality of the Son of God.
Neither can explain the scripture;
“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”
Nick,
Please read through Hebrews 1:6-1:10 God the Father is
speaking of the Son Jesus, to whom the Father says,
“(vs 8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O
God…(vs 10) And, Thou, Lord……”how is it that here the Father is calling Jesus
God, and the Father is calling Jesus Lord?Nick, why is it the Father can call Jesus God and
Lord, yet you do not do so?Hi SS,
When did I say the Son of God was not divine?
When did I say he is not my Lord?But he is not The God who is his God.
Hi ss,
From the same scripture context-Hebrews 1.9
“…Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions”So is Jesus called God ? Yes
Who anointed him? His God, our God.
Is he then our God ? No.Seems simple enough.
Quote (stroshow @ Aug. 20 2005,18:03) Nick, Please read through Hebrews 1:6-1:10 God the Father is
speaking of the Son Jesus, to whom the Father says,
“(vs 8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O
God…(vs 10) And, Thou, Lord……”how is it that here the Father is calling Jesus
God, and the Father is calling Jesus Lord?Nick, why is it the Father can call Jesus God and
Lord, yet you do not do so?
Hi stroshow,The word 'God' (theos) is not a term that is given exclusively to Yahweh. Theos is used to describe the Father, Jesus, Man and even Satan. Therefore if we take that word to always mean the most high God, then you would have to say that man and Satan were the most high God Yahweh too. But of course neither of us believe that, so there is no point in arguing from that angle as it is flawed.
The word 'theos' is a term that is used to describe many, and in order to know what type of God is being referred to, you need to look closely at the adjective or the article being used.
E.g., If I say “I felt the presence of a spirit”, does that mean that I felt the Holy Spirit or a demon or angel? It could be any of those from a language perspective. Now if I said “I felt the presence of the Spirit”, then I should be talking about the Holy Spirit unless the context specifically mentioned a certain other spirit.
This is also how the word 'Theos & Elohim can also be used. In addition to the articles 'the' and 'a', we also have to contend with adjectives. E.g., the 'most high' God is completely different to the God 'of this age'. Yet both use the word 'Theos'.
Now if you read through Hebrews 1:6-1:10 as you have mentioned, you will see the answer staring you in the face. This 'O God' that is mentioned actually himself has a God. So just as you have a God, this son also has a God. Maybe that is why he is called the Son of God. Jesus even said in John 20:17, that his Father and God is our Father and God.
Below I have listed some different uses of the words 'theos', in case you do not believe what I am saying.
Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.Now you will see a verse where the Greek word 'theos' is used to describe Jesus.
John 20:28-29 (English-NIV)
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God! (theos)”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”The word 'theos' in the next verse is used to describe Satan as he is the author of this world/age.
2 Corinthians 4:4 (English-NIV)
The god (theos) of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (theos).The word (theos) is also used to describe Man see below.
John 10:34 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'So if you are able to look beyond the mere mention of the word 'theos' to mean Yahweh exclusively, you will have a much better chance of seeing the truth and making sense of all the scriptures which must surely be in conflict to your current way of thinking.
Listen to the words of Jesus:
John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.John 13:3
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;Good posts, guys.
Did Jesus think of himself as equal with men or greater?
- Jhn 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am.
- Matt 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?”
They said to Him, “The Son of David.”
43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying:44 'The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”'?*45 If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?” 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.
- Matt 12:41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.
- Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Did Jesus consider himself equal with God?
Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
as the SAME BEING with God?
Matt 12:48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
And there are various scriptures to consider to show that Jesus did not consider himself to be equal or the the same being as his Father. But Trinitarianly speaking, we could consider ourselves to be the mother, sister and brothers of YHWH if they are the same or equal.
Jesus was also not given to switching gears with his identity as relates to time: yes he laid aside his glory and humbled himself as a man for our sake, but even then he spoke with authority and the scriptures above show that. Meaning that, if he were a Trinity, he would have told us.
True Cubes.
If we are Jesus brother, then we would surely not be God's brother. That would be clearly wrong.
It's obvious when men tamper with things that all sorts of undesirable and unforseen results can happen.
Hi,
Those who recognise the divine nature of the Word who partook of flesh need to decide whether this nature prevented him from being the Son of God or not.Fear of polytheism has led many to believe that since only one true God exists then Jesus must be still part of that God.
But it was Jesus himself who called the Father
“the only True God” in Jn 17.3
How can this be?Perhaps polytheists are those who worship more than one God rather than those who recognise that in scripture other divine beings are shown to exist?
Hi,
Does God have a God?
Jesus does.Jn 20
“16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. “
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