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Ok nate,
I am trying to clarify and demystify and you are adding more layers of philosophy and psychology . While your points are valid and must be taken into account we need to get to the kernel of truth rather than fiddling with the fluffy exterior surely .
Amusing story? Yes but the observers, who must have been blind, all gathered some truth to add into the mix but none realised they needed to put it all together.The story has a bias – it suggests that all views are right. I disagree and do not believe any of us can be smug and conceited about what we now know as it is only a small part of what we can learn if we keep searching.We should not be blind any more as when we look at scripture ,written by the Spirit through men, we should have the Holy Spirit in us to show us what is meant. We are not casting about in the dark but have hopefully had our eyes opened. Sadly most experts have not dealt with their blindness and teach from speculation as the Industanis did.
BESIDES, old buddy, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO ADDRESS MY SIMPLE QUESTION?
hey nick,
at the end of every one of your posts is the phrase – test all things, hold fast to the good… but is this what you do?
you wrote off the prayer of st francis because it sounded humanistic to you, even though it begins “oh lord, make me an instrument of your peace” which is a cry that seems to me can only be inspired by someone who already loves the lord… in the same way you wrote off the poem of the six blind men, and the posts by john…
i can see that you want to search out the mysteries of god, and this is a good thing… but what happens when you meet others on the same journey, whose understanding differs from yours? will you automatically assume they're wrong, or will you (like st francis) seek to understand before being understood? will you try and understand why they believe what they do, or will you deny that they're holding a “piece of the elephant”?
if you can indicate to me that you understand what i'm trying to say, then i'll try and answer your question… otherwise, i don't really see the point, because you won't understand my answer either…
cheers,
nate.
Hi nate,
I love walking with those who share my passion for truth.
“But can two walk together unless they agree?”
That is why I try to test all things and hold fast to what is good. I have been careful to make sure the right foundation is laid in my life and God blesses me though I have plenty of trials too.
I am not scared of being challenged and mostly welcome it and that is why I challenge others to see if we can come to a deep sense of agreement with some so that we can delve for treasure together. Is that selfish? I do get frustrated when I think we have harmony and then find out that our foundations are entirely different and spiritual conversation fizzles into vapour.
Some dislike my direct approach and find it abrasive and for that I apologise and I am trying to be less so but it does clear away the fog between us. I hope you can understand me and I have enjoyed your input over recent times.
I do not think all ways to God are true. I do not equate christianity with buddhism or other forms of humanistic religion and I try to defend truth as it is too precious to be treated as badly as it is. And I feel many many people have been deceived and sometimes the direct apprioach can save someone from ruin.
Jas 5.19.” My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins”what is truth?
is it a double dichotomy of black and white, right and wrong, good and bad, etc?
or is it a motivation toward god?
will god deny a man who diligently seeks after him, but doesn't participate in symbolic events?
is truth only what can be proved by searching the scriptures?
or is it something which “is” and can only be found in following jesus, and the guiding of the spirit of god?
is truth the monopoly of christians?
or is it open to all that seek after it with a pure heart?
does god look on our intellect?
or does he look on our heart?
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1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.if god looks on our heart and sees that although we know all things, we do not love, what will he think of us?
if god looks on our heart and sees that although we have sinned and been of mean understanding, yet we do love, what will he think of us?
who may ascend to the hill of the lord?
what is truth?
is it knowledge or motivation?
cheers,
nate.
Hi nate,
You ask the same question Pilate did. What is truth.We have the answer from the mouth of Jesus
“I am the way the TRUTH and the life. No one can come to the Father but by me”Every man imagines God as a kind and loving father who is nice to all his children. And in a way we are all His children as Paul said to the people of Athens.But Jesus wants us to join his family, in him.
As Proverbs says twice
” There is a way which seems right to a man, but it's end is death “But it is not the imaginations of men we should follow but the revelation given by God through His Word and through his Son.To not listen to Jesus is to make his message to you useless.He said “follow me”. He came into the world to bring light and to open the eyes of the blind. He said “consecrate yourself to truth, my Word is truth.”… that is his definition of truth and I will not deny it.
But he also said that ” unless one is born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God” and further verses explained what he meant. Unless we obey and follow Jesus and be born again of water and the Spirit we will never be able to grasp any other understanding of the purpose of his visit to earth.
Yes there are exceptions God defines outside of the gospel whereby men are saved and all of them involve love. So if anyone does not find the path he said to follow then love is the best option. But those who truly love God will love his Son and obey the message of His Son. If anyone hears the message of salvation he brings but chooses their own way then what excuse can they have?
As for those who are following as best they can then it is up to them to present the message as he gave it to us, not a modified or diluted version, as teachers have even more expectations on them. False teaching can cause many others to lose salvation too.
The love spoken of in 1Cor 13 is the gift of Love given to those born of the Spirit and not natural human love. It is the love that lays down it's life for others.
hey nick,
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You ask the same question Pilate did. What is truth.We have the answer from the mouth of Jesus
“I am the way the TRUTH and the life. No one can come to the Father but by me”
i did this on purpose, because of the irony of it – jesus was sent by the experts of the jewish law, to an expert of the civil law… but although both these were caretakers of truth neither of them recognised “the truth”…we can search the bible diligently, and if we're open it can guide us… but it can't save us…
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39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
certainly, the bible points to jesus, but that doesn't mean that life can be found in it, we only find what we seek… if we seek truth we will find it, if we seek knowledge we will find it, if we seek justification we will find it… but how many of these things will be pleasing to god?Quote
9As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. “Follow me,” he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.
10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and “sinners” came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?”
12On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
sacrifice was laid down in the law of moses for the redemption of sins, but jesus (repeating the words of the prophet) says, god desires mercy… this is the wisdom of god…there is definitely a way that seems right to a man, and only brings death… but the way of god is not knowing or proving what is right and what is wrong, but in desiring to follow god, even if his ways contradict what we know…
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10″Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men–robbers, evildoers, adulterers–or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
14″I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
our wisdom can only build up ourselves, but the wisdom of god is not in what can be proven through logic and scriptural analysis, but recognising that our wisdom is nothing, and our righteousness less than nothing…Quote
17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
so, what is truth?is it what i can prove with my intellect and much study, or is it what is good and pleasing in the lord's eyes (though it doesn't stand up to reason, or though it is a stumblingblock to my understanding)… isn't it a heart like david's – a heart after the lord?
cheers,
nate.
hi nate,
The problem is that we cannot make our heart like David's and nor can any doctor. We need a heart transplant.Ez 36.25″ I will sprinkle clean water upon you and cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a NEW HEART and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts “
That is major surgery and requires we die before we live. But the death is easy, being baptised into Jesus and filled with his spirit to have new life.
Wisdom?
Lk 7.35.” God's wisdom is vindicated by all who accept it”Obedience to the Word is what allows us to see the kingdom.
hey nick,
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The problem is that we cannot make our heart like David's and nor can any doctor. We need a heart transplant.Ez 36.25″ I will sprinkle clean water upon you and cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a NEW HEART and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts “
That is major surgery and requires we die before we live. But the death is easy, being baptised into Jesus and filled with his spirit to have new life.
so david had no choice whether his heart would be after the lord or not?
seriously, this is what i've been talking about… you can use the scriptures to prove anything you want, and depending on your perspective it will seem justified… but you've taken this verse completely out of context:
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I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD . Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!does this sound like the same heart that david had? does this sound like a heart after the lord? no!! god said he would do this for the children of israel, so that they would wake up to themselves… for goodness sake, nick, stop trying to be so clever, and just try and think about what i'm saying…
NO ONE PERSON HAS THE WHOLE TRUTH!! this is why the church is a body… can any of us measure up to the full stature of christ on our own?
if you're not willing to learn from what others have to say, then you're denying that god can speak through even the meanest vessel… but god can speak through those that don't even know him… will you deny the spirit of god when it speaks through someone, just because it doesn't line up with your interpretation of the scriptures?
if you're not willing to deny yourself, deny all the knowledge you have, for the chance to serve even the most undeserving person, then you're not following in christ's footsteps – no matter how much you know!!
and if you're worried that listening to those whose opinions, or even lifestyles you don't agree with might cause you to be deceived, just remember that to the pure in heart all things are pure… why do you want to learn? is it for a pure motive? if so, then don't despise the vessel that god may choose to use…
cheers,
nate.
Nate,
You have lost me entirely. How does sharing scripture offend? Are you asking me if I would first seek spiritual wisdom in the words of Francis or the poet? No I would not. I might find some dim echoes there of beauty but surely you would agree we should first look in the Word of God?
And I will measure any wisdom there against the Word of God which is pure. God has spoken through a donkey before today so any vessel can be used.
David was blessed by God's Spirit and that is reflected in the words written through him surely? Surely you can see this scripture in Ezekiel is not only relevant to the immediate listener's context but prophetic for the blessings of the reign of Jesus?i rest my case…
Quote (Guest @ Nov. 24 2004,20:43) NO ONE PERSON HAS THE WHOLE TRUTH!! this is why the church is a body… can any of us measure up to the full stature of christ on our own?
Yes Nate this is true. We, the Church are the bride of Christ, and he is the source of our lives.I have enjoyed your posts and I think that we should strive for unity among the brethren. Sure I do not know anything about you apart from what you write, but that is true of anyone here.
Hi nate,
So you rest your case.Was this a trial then?
What or who was being judged?If it was truth then the sharp double edged sword of the Spirit will always win against the weapons of the world.
Was it a brother?
Are any of us superior to one another that we can judge one another or are we not all equal in the body?
Do you know his fruit then to be able to judge him?
Is it wise to judge your brothers?hey nick,
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Was it a brother?
Are any of us superior to one another that we can judge one another or are we not all equal in the body?
Do you know his fruit then to be able to judge him?
Is it wise to judge your brothers?haha… touche… but i was using the term loosely, to indicate that your post inadvertently highlighted what i was trying to say – that we each interprete things differently, and we choose what kind of priority to give different sources…
as you can see, your interpretation of the ezekiel passage is vastly different to mine, and i appologise for suggesting that mine was the “correct” interpretation… but what i mean is that we should be open to all interpretations, regardless of whether we agree, because as you say – “Are any of us superior to one another that we can judge one another or are we not all equal in the body?”
but not only in the body – jesus died for all… i know that you view the bible as the infallible word of god and therefore the ultimate authority… i can appreciate this, but as the trinity debate on this board shows, even the most accepted of doctrines can be challenged based on the same bible, even the same verse… moreover, our views and interpretations aren't only shaped by the bible, but by circumstances around us, for instance: school, media, politics, religion… each of these “cultures” help shape and inform our opinions, and determine to some extent how we interprete information (including the bible)… if i grew up in the england of henry viii, i would probably have been taught that the catholic church was mystery babylon (a theme which continues today in protestant countries), that the monarchy was a godly institution, and that jesus was an englishman… hehehe… if i grew up less than a century later in cromwell's england, i would probably have been taught that the established church was mystery babylon, and that monarchies were the puppets of the established church… (and also that jesus was an englishman, but perhaps spoke a little bit of dutch as well, hehe)… and all of this would have been based on an interpretation of the scriptures in the context of current events, etc…
…so i think that regardless of what we believe we should be able to listen to the views of others, to try and find out where they're coming from, and what informs their opinions… we might learn something of value, even about ourselves – which is one of the reasons i think as i do… i have believed in the past things which i no longer believe today, though they were firmly held convictions, with “solid foundations” (or what i thought was solid – being based on an interpretation of bible passages)… who's to say that in the future some things which i hold as absolute today won't be challenged… what will i do? will i remain open and seek the truth rather than justification, or will i choose to hold onto the security of “knowing” rather than the insecurity of “searching”… ??
i'm sorry if my posts cause offense – i can get pretty heated sometimes… but i'm trying to change that…
t8,
very true… it's very difficult to know much about a person through an electronic medium… perhaps we'll meet up one day – my wife and i were almost going to holiday in nz over the christmas/new year, but we decided to go to our (newly acquired) tropical hideaway in far north queensland and plant an edible rainforest… hehe… however, we'll get to the long white cloud one day soon, god willing…
i thought about posting a short life-story in the “testimony” section, but i'm afraid it would be rather boring and nonsensical, seeing as much of my journey has happened as a result of retrospective evaluation…
cheers,
nate.
hi nate,
No problem. I hear what you are saying. Culture, upbringing and lots of other factors influence what we think and say.It is hard to be immune to those influences in the study of scripture too.
But should they be factors? If Jesus walked the earth today would he say anything different? If Paul came to Auckland surely he would say the same as he said in Athens?
The truth does not change and our challenge is to find that truth despite all the obstacles. The truth is not a matter of opinion and it is not changed by our circumstances is it?The Jews had only the Law and the prophets to work from. But they really studied it. They look at every word and context in detail and discuss and listen to one another so as to devour it as food.
They study it every morning at school and do normal study in the afternoon as I understand.Although they do not know all the truth but they know where it is to be found and they delve desperately to grasp it.
And they only have the written expression of the Spirit. We should have the indwelling Spirit if we have asked for it . What an advantage! We also have the added wisdom of the Gospels of Jesus and the teachings of the apostles to understand the NT and the OT as well.
But what happens? No one really studies the bible honestly. Religion becomes a substitute for faith. People separate, divide up into denominations ,snipe at one another and defend their favourite doctrines. No one listens to anyone and everyone smugly ignores the real and vital message.
All I am trying to say is we have a real opportunity to grow here if we all forget about externals and what divides and confuses people and start to find truth by comparing scripture with scripture in prayer, comparing contexts in a positive light and being open to each other. But study from other sources than the word is pointless till we know, and really know the Word.
Do you see where I am comng from too?
hey nick,
i can see that we both understand each other to some extent… we just have to keep reminding ourselves that we're on the same side, eh?? hehehe…
yeh, i know what you mean about delving into the scriptures, it is certainly good to have an understanding of what it says… i just don't think we should limit ourselves to that, because i think that many of the lessons we learn in life (and from non-bible sources) help us to better understand the message of god… i'll give you an example:
my recent studies have been in the area of “human-needs” theory… put basically, our actions are in response to our needs, but the type of action we take is a result of learned behaviour…
in a practical application – i feel a basic-need threatened, for instance a person challenging what i believe threatens my “identy need” (my need to know who i am and what i believe)… now, my re-action (my learned behaviour) is to defend myself through fear – i'm afraid that i'll no longer be secure in knowing who i am… so i come up with a bunch of justifications for why my belief is right (as a christian i use the scriptures, but i could equally use other sources)… in so doing, i define myself more clearly by my beliefs, and similarly define my oponent by theirs (or my interpretation of their beliefs)… so now we're ranged on opposite sides of an argument…
on the other hand, i could react out of respect for that person and their beliefs… i could hold less security in my beliefs, but in the desire for truth… my respect for that person helps me to understand what they believe and why they believe it… this reaction causes me to work with my opponent toward the common goal of finding the truth…
when i was researching in this area, i suddenly came to a better understanding of what is meant by “perfect love casts out all fear”… now, i have studied the bible for years, but it wasn't until non-biblical study gave me a different perspective that i understood this… i believed it in my younger years, because the bible said it, but because i didn't experience why love casts out fear, i could only see it from a “religious” perspective, not from a “practical” perspective, and so i couldn't really practice it… now i understand it from experience, so i can agree with conviction that perfect love casts out all fear (which isn't to say that i have perfect love, but that my progress toward that goal is enhanced by my belief that it has a practical application)…
this is why i think we need to be open to other people's perspectives… human-needs theory delves into a lot of areas that i don't personally agree with, but because i was willing to try and understand what the proponents of this theory believe and why they believe it, i was able to better understand what i think is a godly truth…
does this make sense? – it was a bit long-winded…
cheers,
nate.
Hi nate ,
Yes I understand. We are all aware of the fear of failure and fear of embarrassment or insecurity. I am a diagnostician and not a counsellor and it affects my approach to everything and makes me see life in a black and white way too.
Still the best way to not be defensive though is to learn more so that we have a more defensible position. Scripture study builds knowledge on knowledge, sometimes in painful ways, but we need to keep going leaning on each other.
” those who have will receive more”.
True?hehe… not surprisingly, i have a different opinion…
i agree that it is good to be continually learning, but as the saying goes (and bono, on the new u2 album) the more you learn the less you know – at least, this is my experience… i used to think i had all the answers, but it seems that the more i learn the questions i get…
partly for this reason, i don't think we should aim towards a defensible position, but toward removing all our defenses… even if that means people ridicule and scorn us… i think, if people can't see “truth” in our words, it either means that their perspective is different – in which case a more defensible argument will only build walls between us, but working together will help us all toward the common goal – or because they aren't interested in “truth” in which case it doesn't really matter whether or not our position is defensible…
what do you think?
Nope nate.
Of course I disagree. Bible truth exists and needs to be guarded from those who would denigrate or misuse it.
Perhaps we have different roles in the body. I believe I was given a teaching role when I was prayed with 20 yrs ago and have only taken it up recently. In the meantime the Lord has been slowly building my tools for the job. He gave me a love for the beauty and harmony of the Word and the Spirit to remind me of what was important, how to tell which were vital and which useful and where to find those gems when I need them. My old bibles are crammed with gems noted in the edges. Ok it is just knowledge maybe and others may be able to better put them to use than I do but I love sharing beauty.hey nick,
i certainly don't won't to squash your gift…
i believe that god's truth is eternal and unchanging… i believe that the bible contains some of that truth… but i also believe that we can learn from many different sources, and that other sources can help us better understand that truth contained in the bible…
as you say, different parts of the body perform different functions… but regardless of this, i don't think that it's necessary for us to agree on all points to be in unity… there's a saying, “unity cannot be based on doctrine”… i find this amazingly perceptive – imagine different people from different walks of life having to agree on doctrinal issues… it just won't happen – not until that which is perfect comes… however, if we have the same goal in sight, the further we go along the road to that goal, the closer our understanding with those around us will be – like those heading toward a city from different directions: eventually their roads converge…
so i think we need to be open and honest regarding what we believe, and try to understand what others believe… i don't think god's truth needs defending, but like that city on a hill, should be allowed to shine out… if everything is brought into the light, then i think truth will be revealed, but if we continue to defend the truth we've found, then we're also defending the lies we hold onto… better that we reveal all now, rather than wait for god to reveal it, eh?
does this make sense?
cheers,
nate.
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