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Understanding Faith and works
Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
Titus tells us that we are not saved by the works that we have done.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians is telling us that we are saved through faith and that faith is a gift of God.
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
Now James is telling us that faith won’t save us.
There sure seems to be a lot of contradictions going on here.
To understand what God is telling us here is very simple.
Faith is the knowledge that Christ possesses that He will give us through the Holy Spirit. This knowledge will become our faith if we believe it.
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see the travail of His soul, and be satisfied, by His knowledge My righteous Servant (Jesus) shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
If I ask you what you believe, you will begin to express your faith in how you understand and believe something. How we live our lives is an expression of our faith.
Has we seek God for His knowledge (faith) and the understanding of it the Holy Spirit will give it to us. If we don’t apply what He gives us our faith is dead. The application of faith in our lives is our works.
If I tell you cocaine will kill you and you go out and use cocaine anyway and die, the understanding I gave you didn’t mean much. When God gives us knowledge and understanding for daily living and we don’t apply it, what God gave us is dead.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
What our works do is they perfect our faith. In other words, our obedience to the knowledge that God is giving us shows that we really do believe.
James 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
The KJV uses the word, perfect, but, complete, can also be used.
James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
To have knowledge and do nothing with it is worthless. So a man is justified by works and not faith only, in other words, a man is justified by obedience to what God is giving him.
Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
What are you getting when you’re hearing from God? We’re getting knowledge for living holy and godly lives.
2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
What does it profit to have knowledge if your not going to apply it can having knowledge save you?
Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, `Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’
Man shall live by the knowledge God gives him.
This knowledge is freely given to us by God to have and obey.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Peace to you in Christ,
JohnHi John : ….Outstanding report and growth in both cases of " Faith / Works " . Faith as the gift , Works as the result of faith. If we believe and use the faith Matt 4:4 , they both go together. Now if a sinner accepts Jesus on his death bed and the gift of faith is given and death occurs , surely he is saved (by) his faith, inwhich was "work" in believing. A changing of Heart and Will.
Now faith without works is dead.
James 2:17 states "even so faith , if it hath not works , is dead, being alone" Verse 18 states " yea, a man may say , thou hast faith , and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works , and I will show thee my faith "By" my works. …..I hope that this will enlighten this topic. …………Grace….love and mercy toward all…..
……thehappymanHi thehappyman,
I believe salvation is a two fold process. First is coming to the understanding that God’s loves us and has expressed this love in the fact that He gave His only begotten Son. Coming to this understanding reveals to us that in the shedding of Christ’s blood God forgives us. This draws us near to the Father, in other words, we turn from not seeking God to seeking Him.
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been made near by the blood of Christ.
At the moment to turn to God salvation begins, He is now able to begin a work in us of delivering us from iniquity, that twisted and perverted way of thinking.
Christ died for the sins of the whole world but this is not what saves us.
1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
It’s not the death of the Son of God that saves us but rather it’s His life, His death draws us to the saving work. Understanding God’s love in the fact that He gave His only Son opens our heart to receive the saving work of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Jesus’ life living in and through us is what saves us. Jesus died for the whole world but the whole world will not be saved, only those who walk in the light (truth) that Jesus gives us to walk in.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
God will only hold us accountable to what we know and understand. So, yes, those who get saved on their death bed are in fact saved.
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
If we continue to live after receiving Christ then we continue to be saved through sanctification of our spirit (mind).
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind.
So salvation is a two fold process. The first part is all God through Christ because He loves us, we have nothing to do with the first part. The second part has to do with us and our desire to walk in the salvation that God has provided for us.
Hebrews 2:2-3 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.
Many blessings to you in Christ,
John(Edited by John at 4:45 pm on Feb. 5, 2004)
Hi,
John's expositions here are typical of the false gospel that is so popular. Intellectual assent and good works are not the message Jesus brought of how men are to be saved. This is
human wisdom and rebellion.Salvation is entering the Kingdom of God.
” Unless you are born again of water and the Holy Spirit you cannot enter into the Kingdom of God” said Jesus and his disciples preached that message and obeyed that command in the book of Acts.i thought the analogy of “cocaine kills” was very good… i don't think john was proposing intellectual assent and good works, but works that reflect faith… ??
Hi nate,
But the suggestion is that knowledge and understanding and works saves us. In other words living good lives and believing in God is enough to satify God's demands. It isn't.
“Even demons believe and tremble”James
We can never be good enough.
Our “righteousness is as filthly rags” and we must put on the righteousness of the Son of God to stand in God's presence.Zech 3 3f is an illustration of our state prior to baptism into Jesus when we are clothed with him and his righteousness.
Now Joshua was clothed in filthy garments and standing before the angel.
And he [the angel] spoke and said to those who were standing before him saying' remove the filthy garments from him' Again he said to him ' See, I have taken iniquity away from you and I woill clothe you in festal robes”
Similar story is the prodigal son.hey nick,
this isn't the impression i get from reading john's post…
this is something which has really interested me lately – how different people can read the same thing and come out with completely different impressions…
not really relevant though… oh well… can't really add anything to what i've said.
cheers,
nate.
What about believing the gospel, then accepting the gospel. For not all who believe accept. So how do we accept the message of the gospel? We do God's will. What is God's will? That we obey him? For surely if we do not obey God, then we have said no to him as our God and rejected the gospel.
Hebrews 4:6
It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.Romans 1:5
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.Romans 6:16
Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey–whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?So our works of faith do not save us, rather it is the sacrifice of Jesus who died on the cross for us that paid our debt. But our works of faith are the fruit of salvation, not salvation itself. Our works of obedience in Christ are our expression and reply to the gospel. Obedience to God is the way we say yes I accept the gospel message and I accept it everyday.
Romans 9:30-33
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”
33 As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”I think that we are all saying the same thing here, but in a different way. I could be wrong of course.
Quote (John @ Feb. 05 2004,01:24) Hi thehappyman, I believe salvation is a two fold process. First is coming to the understanding that God's loves us and has expressed this love in the fact that He gave His only begotten Son. Coming to this understanding reveals to us that in the shedding of Christ's blood God forgives us. This draws us near to the Father, in other words, we turn from not seeking God to seeking Him.
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been made near by the blood of Christ.
At the moment to turn to God salvation begins, He is now able to begin a work in us of delivering us from iniquity, that twisted and perverted way of thinking.
Christ died for the sins of the whole world but this is not what saves us.
1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
It's not the death of the Son of God that saves us but rather it's His life, His death draws us to the saving work. Understanding God's love in the fact that He gave His only Son opens our heart to receive the saving work of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Jesus' life living in and through us is what saves us. Jesus died for the whole world but the whole world will not be saved, only those who walk in the light (truth) that Jesus gives us to walk in.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
God will only hold us accountable to what we know and understand. So, yes, those who get saved on their death bed are in fact saved.
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
If we continue to live after receiving Christ then we continue to be saved through sanctification of our spirit (mind).
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind.
So salvation is a two fold process. The first part is all God through Christ because He loves us, we have nothing to do with the first part. The second part has to do with us and our desire to walk in the salvation that God has provided for us.
Hebrews 2:2-3 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.
Many blessings to you in Christ,
John(Edited by John at 4:45 pm on Feb. 5, 2004)
Hi nate,
Reading between the lines John says that salvation comes by realising what Jesus has done and accepting that propitiation by faith and that means we are saved.
Nothing could be further from the truth. God makes the terms and we cannot make our own path but follow Jesus.
Where does John mention repentance?
Or, as t8 says, obedience?We need to give a witness to God and angels and men of our repentance and belief .In the NT that brings the forgiveness of God expressed in the symbolic washing of Baptism and the regeneration by the Spirit.
hey nick,
Quote
Reading between the lines John says that salvation comes by realising what Jesus has done and accepting that propitiation by faith and that means we are saved.this is what i mean by reading the same thing and getting a different impression… reading between the lines isn't reading what is written, but what we infer from what is written, so it is entirely likely that we'll interprete what is said differently… i shouldn't wonder if both our interpretations are different from what john meant… hehehe…
…i think that in general these interpretations come down to how we view the world and god (and i also think that we do to a large extent try to incorporate our understanding of god into our knowledge of the world, rather than incorporating our understanding of the world into our knowledge of god, but this is getting off the topic a bit).
you mention repentance… now repentance could be seen (and often is in churches) as a vocal or mental “i repent of my sins” etc… but to repent just means to turn around… this could be interpreted as a single action like the above, or it could be a continual turning (as you would in a car) away from your sinful life (or self-centred), and towards god's life (of christ-centred)… ultimately the repentant person is christ-centred, but who is to say that only one of the above methods (or both, for that matter) is the correct one…
now john says, “…we turn from not seeking God to seeking Him…” which to me indicates repentance… as does:
Quote
At the moment to turn to God salvation begins, He is now able to begin a work in us of delivering us from iniquity, that twisted and perverted way of thinking.i think also that this was what t8 was saying (comments t8?) about accepting, not just believing. i could believe the gospel but still not repent, not turn from the path of self, toward the path of god (the way of christ)…
what do you think?
cheers,
nate.
Hi Nate,
Ok do you think John is talkng about those who have already gone through the gate and are working out their salvation? He mentions accepting Jesus but we also have to be baptised into Jesus before anything else about christianity and our walk has any relevance. Intellectual agreement is not enough for God.
Sure the magician in Acts 8 who had believed and been baptised and wanted to buy the Holy Spirit showed clearly he had not repented and was severely rebuked by Peter.
Repentance is more that just a small adjustment on our path but a total ploughing of the field such that good seed can grow. Of course it is ongoing as none of us knows how much sin has penetrated our pores over time.ah nick, don't you think that's being a bit pedantic… i might say, “driving is when you get into your car and travel from a to b…” the fact that i don't mention putting on your seatbelt doesn't mean that i don't believe in seatbelts…
Hi nate,
That is what I mean about the casual attitude to truth by teachers. They show no apparent respect for the Word. I feel we have to build every doctrine carefully on proven bricks of truth as those who read our work can check at every step.
There is no point in putting in the windows before the walls are established or putting down the carpet till the roof is on. Cakll me pedantic but I feel we have to be responsible to the master builder in whose name we build.haha… you're talking to the wrong person there…
I am not talking about you nate. But a forum like this can be a happy club where nothing is achieved. I am here to learn and that is why I expose my limited knowledge so it can be developed into something useful.
But nate,
I would encourage you and others to contribute more from your knowledge rather than just testing our posts.You say you know more than most here, and I have no reason to disagree with you, so please don't hide your light under a “cryptic” barrel. We need to share your understandings because they do not belong to you alone surely but to the hungry body of Christ?Quote
You say you know more than most herehaha… well, i did say it and regretted the saying, but i was speaking of “book knowledge” which i don't believe to be of much value in spiritual matters… however, you got my attention, so let me try and share my understandings:
as i've been alluding to, different people view the world around them in different ways… many of these views are unconscious, but they affect the way we interprete the information we receive… so when you read john's posts you received a different understanding of what he was trying to say than i do, and both of us are probably a little or a lot off what he actually means…
as you can imagine, this creates some problems… firstly, because these interpretations are largely unconscious, we automatcally assume that everyone else interpretes things the same way we do… secondly, when what we say isn't interpreted correctly, we tend to think (because what we said was obvious to us) that they're purposely twisting our words… thirdly, we are convinced that our interpretation is the correct one, because from our perspective the house has two windows and a door – and we know this for a fact – but we can't see another person's perspective of french-doors and a verandah… and of course, the list goes on…
so, in order to avoid these complications, i think the best thing is to change this “unconscious” interpretation of information, into a “conscious” search to understand the source of the information, whether it be scriptural sources, discussion sources (like these posts), or the source of life itself… and to understand the interpretations of those who don't see exactly the same way we do.
francis of assissi is purported to have said these words:
Quote
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
when there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
Grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand,
to be loved as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.if we can make this prayer a conscious act in our daily relations with others, i think that not only will we begin to learn so much more about the world and it's creator, but may also in time convert others to our way of perceiving (if not our exact perspective). because this method requires respecting (or loving) other people and their opinions, you could call it love in action – and as paul said, if i have not love i am nothing (though i could have gift of god, men and angels)…
what do you think?
cheers,
nate.
Hi nate,
I know I am the sort of person who likes to cut to the chase and sometimes I should slow down to show you where I am heading. Being too succinct can be a fault and I realise this.
But you haven't answered my question about the salvation message quoted by me of John's . Do you think it was written to those who are saved or was it written to explain to someone who wasn't saved how to be saved-which is how I interpreted it? If you agree then would it be an adequate message that would lead to salvation for the seeking reader? I do not.
Francis of Assisi is a popular hero. He loved animals and people and had a popular following in his time. The fact that he was a rascal prior to his decision to throw away his family wealth and become a catholic monk is little known.
His famous prayer can be summarised as
“Love my neighbour” .
A fine sentiment but alone it constitutes humanism not christianity. It puts the cart before the horse. It puts the first commandment behind the second. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and all your strength. It is a false teaching without the first commandment.
Now catholicism does not preach the true way of salvation anyway and so it is unlikely that he would have found salvation through the normal way. He would have been wiser to follow the advice of Jesus
“seek ye first the kingdom of God and everything else will be added to you” before teaching others.
However the way of the saved is the way of love. But it is also true that we must speak the truth in the spirit of love. If we ignore truth for the sake of love it is not really love is it?hey nick,
i'm not talking about right and wrong, but about the way we view the world…
i think maybe you should re-read my last post and try to understand what i'm trying to say…
…perhaps also think about this poem:
Quote
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mindThe First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!”The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, “Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ’tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!”The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake!”The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
“ ‘Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!Moral:
So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!cheers,
nate.
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