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BD
Quote No, You are the LOSER. This woman has proclaimed her great happiness and if you really were for human rights you would congratulate her for finding happiness but instead you only contend your own arbitrary view of what YOU think happiness is therefor you are a LOSER.
Who said anything about happiness?? You are attempting to change the subject AGAIN. We are not talking about her happiness: the mullahs could just keep her sedated day and night and I am sure she could be made to appear happy. We are discussing systematic abuse of her human rights.Quote Where is this oppression of hers? You are an atheist/agnostic and have no set of standards that can be applied as “HUMAN RIGHTS” because to you ALL MORALITY is based upon arbitrary human based agreement. You fail at every turn and how could you be anything else but a LOSER when even the concept of being a winner is still arbitrary, even if this lady leaves Islam you have nothing to offer her because you believe in nothing.
Once again, your logically invalid attempt to discuss a different subject by attacking a strawman of it is desperate. A summary of abuses of human rights mandated in the koran:# Have sex with your women whenever and as often as you like. 2:223
# Women have rights that are similar to men, but men are “a degree above them.” 2:228
# A woman is worth one-half a man. 2:282
# Lewd women are to be confined to their houses until death. 4:15
# Instructions for exchanging wives 4:20
# “All married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.”
You can't have sex with married women, unless they are slaves obtained in war (with whom you may rape or do whatever you like). 4:24# Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34
# “Unto the male is the equivalent share of two females.” 4:176
# You don't have to be modest around your wives or your slave girls “that your right hand possess.” 23:6
# Believing women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves. 24:31
# When Allah or Muhammad decide that a man and a woman should marry, they must marry. 33:36
# Allah says it is lawful for Muhammad to marry any women he wants. 33:50-51
# Women must cover themselves when in public. 33:59
# Those who “did wrong” will go to hell, and their wives will go to hell with them (no matter how they behaved). 37:22-23
(!# Allah's rules for divorcing wives that have not yet reached puberty. 65:4)
# Muhammad's wives need to be careful. If they criticize their husband, Allah will replace them with better ones. 66:5
Quote You believe that people are born and then they die and there is no inherent purpose for life during the life therefore how is it you can criticize anyone living when you say that there entire life is happenstance anyway? If you go down this road with me honestly you either will concede the point or give up Atheism
Wrong, and irrelevant. Please tell me how any woman’s human rights could possibly be unheld in any country applying koranic principles.I predict we will only get yet another attempt on your part to change the subject, as many people in many different parts of the world have correctly predicted of you in the past.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 07 2010,15:44) BD Please tell me how any woman’s human rights could possibly be unheld in any country applying koranic principles.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,
quranic(83) moongod(83) principals
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Stu @ Nov. 07 2010,15:44) BD Quote No, You are the LOSER. This woman has proclaimed her great happiness and if you really were for human rights you would congratulate her for finding happiness but instead you only contend your own arbitrary view of what YOU think happiness is therefor you are a LOSER.
Who said anything about happiness?? You are attempting to change the subject AGAIN. We are not talking about her happiness: the mullahs could just keep her sedated day and night and I am sure she could be made to appear happy. We are discussing systematic abuse of her human rights.Quote Where is this oppression of hers? You are an atheist/agnostic and have no set of standards that can be applied as “HUMAN RIGHTS” because to you ALL MORALITY is based upon arbitrary human based agreement. You fail at every turn and how could you be anything else but a LOSER when even the concept of being a winner is still arbitrary, even if this lady leaves Islam you have nothing to offer her because you believe in nothing.
Once again, your logically invalid attempt to discuss a different subject by attacking a strawman of it is desperate. A summary of abuses of human rights mandated in the koran:# Have sex with your women whenever and as often as you like. 2:223
# Women have rights that are similar to men, but men are “a degree above them.” 2:228
# A woman is worth one-half a man. 2:282
# Lewd women are to be confined to their houses until death. 4:15
# Instructions for exchanging wives 4:20
# “All married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.”
You can't have sex with married women, unless they are slaves obtained in war (with whom you may rape or do whatever you like). 4:24# Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34
# “Unto the male is the equivalent share of two females.” 4:176
# You don't have to be modest around your wives or your slave girls “that your right hand possess.” 23:6
# Believing women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves. 24:31
# When Allah or Muhammad decide that a man and a woman should marry, they must marry. 33:36
# Allah says it is lawful for Muhammad to marry any women he wants. 33:50-51
# Women must cover themselves when in public. 33:59
# Those who “did wrong” will go to hell, and their wives will go to hell with them (no matter how they behaved). 37:22-23
(!# Allah's rules for divorcing wives that have not yet reached puberty. 65:4)
# Muhammad's wives need to be careful. If they criticize their husband, Allah will replace them with better ones. 66:5
Quote You believe that people are born and then they die and there is no inherent purpose for life during the life therefore how is it you can criticize anyone living when you say that there entire life is happenstance anyway? If you go down this road with me honestly you either will concede the point or give up Atheism
Wrong, and irrelevant. Please tell me how any woman’s human rights could possibly be unheld in any country applying koranic principles.I predict we will only get yet another attempt on your part to change the subject, as many people in many different parts of the world have correctly predicted of you in the past.
Stuart
No matter how you slice it if someone willfully finds Islam or any religion and says it fulfills their life you are a LOSER to say different even if they are “sedated ” like you say, you would still be incapable of judging someones happiness but I am aware that unhappy people tend to wish others could be unhappy are you unhappy?2:223 follows 222 did you read any of it or are you just grabbing stuff off of anti-Islam sites without reading the context? No need to answer we already know you can't be bothered to learn what you are talking about anyway 222 is saying that a man should refrain from having sex with his wife during her menstrual cycle because of cramps and the filth of it but ant other time it is fine. Of course being an atheist you may enjoy any filthy thing because you have no standards.
No need to go through the entire collection because I have already shown you have no desire to look into the context of any of them or face the truth no matter what they say. Do you really believe Men and Women are the same? I thought you believed and trusted in science they are not the same at all.
You still haven't explained what rights should people have or if there should be any restrictions at all.
I think I am going to cause you to run away from this because how can you with arbitrary morals defend or accuse moral principles?
Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 07 2010,16:45) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 07 2010,15:44) BD Please tell me how any woman’s human rights could possibly be unheld in any country applying koranic principles.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,
quranic(83) moongod(83) principals
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
ED,How ignorant can you be? Read the Bible and you will see that YHVH put all restrictions in place in-fact YHVH ALLAH said this:
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Genesis 3:15-17Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 08 2010,04:14) .
muslims have been deceived.
Why does the video state that Muhammad doesn't say that Jesus is The Christ? Because the video is deceivingAnd Walid Shoebat says that “God” came in the flesh when the scriptures say that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, you are being deceived ED
BD
Quote No matter how you slice it if someone willfully finds Islam or any religion and says it fulfills their life you are a LOSER to say different even if they are “sedated ” like you say, you would still be incapable of judging someones happiness but I am aware that unhappy people tend to wish others could be unhappy are you unhappy?
Once again, the topic is not happiness, it is human rights. Specifically the one that your human rights-abusing religion robs from women at a greater rate than it does from men.Quote 2:223 follows 222 did you read any of it or are you just grabbing stuff off of anti-Islam sites without reading the context? No need to answer we already know you can't be bothered to learn what you are talking about anyway 222 is saying that a man should refrain from having sex with his wife during her menstrual cycle because of cramps and the filth of it but ant other time it is fine. Of course being an atheist you may enjoy any filthy thing because you have no standards.
Last point desperate, wrong and irrelevant. How does 2:222 make ANY DIFFERENCE to 2:223? What kind of an ignorant moron would suggest that menstruation is an illness?Quote No need to go through the entire collection because I have already shown you have no desire to look into the context of any of them or face the truth no matter what they say. Do you really believe Men and Women are the same? I thought you believed and trusted in science they are not the same at all.
No need to listen to any of your points then if you are not going to address it. I’ll stand by my view that isalm is the retarded superstitions of a deluded Dark Age pedophile whose idea of spreading a peaceful religion was to wind people up until he felt justified in massacring them, and no doubt putting into practice his view that he could have sex with any woman he liked at any time, as outlined in these verses and others which I deleted for brevity.Quote You still haven't explained what rights should people have or if there should be any restrictions at all.
I think the UN declaration is a good place to begin, don’t you? All those islamic theocracies that put people to death are in breach of that. Perhaps they are not real muslims. You have never told me who you think the real muslims are. Perhaps it is just you who is.Quote I think I am going to cause you to run away from this because how can you with arbitrary morals defend or accuse moral principles?
My morals are not arbitrary, they are principles because I think of them as such. I happen to think that sex with minors, killing others who have offended you and dictating ambiguous religious texts which leave wide open the possibility that a god wants you to blow other people up in marketplaces are less ethical acts than most of what constitutes my day, most days.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 08 2010,15:54) Quote Once again, the topic is not happiness, it is human rights. Specifically the one that your human rights-abusing religion robs from women at a greater rate than it does from men. Actually the topic is happiness especially if it is about human rights. “rights” are what are given to someone to make them fell they are being treated “right”
Quote Last point desperate, wrong and irrelevant. How does 2:222 make ANY DIFFERENCE to 2:223? What kind of an ignorant moron would suggest that menstruation is an illness? Either you must be single, gay, or if married your wife must be post menstrual. Go ask women in your neighborhood how they feel each month bleeding and cramping you see your the one that has no respect for women
Quote No need to listen to any of your points then if you are not going to address it. I’ll stand by my view that isalm is the retarded superstitions of a deluded Dark Age pedophile whose idea of spreading a peaceful religion was to wind people up until he felt justified in massacring them, and no doubt putting into practice his view that he could have sex with any woman he liked at any time, as outlined in these verses and others which I deleted for brevity. Your entire view is skewered and without merit especially regarding the video which you could have stated you don't think everyone in Islam feels that way but instead you said something that disregarded the woman herself and that's why your a LOSER not simply for being an atheist but for insulting and critisizing a WOMAN after you bark about rights
Quote I think the UN declaration is a good place to begin, don’t you? All those islamic theocracies that put people to death are in breach of that. Perhaps they are not real muslims. You have never told me who you think the real muslims are. Perhaps it is just you who is. Article 18
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance
so why are you trying to violate the rights of others?
As far as cultures are concerned they have nothing to do with ISLAM just like American culture has nothing to do with Christianity. If you say this muslim did this crime or this christian did this crime then I would say they are criminals and not practicing Islam or Christianity. You don't eat meat but I would suspect it's not an Atheist thing, it's just your thing
Quote My morals are not arbitrary, they are principles because I think of them as such. I happen to think that sex with minors, killing others who have offended you and dictating ambiguous religious texts which leave wide open the possibility that a god wants you to blow other people up in marketplaces are less ethical acts than most of what constitutes my day, most days. What are these principles based on and what is a minor? What age?
Are you also saying you have no right to defend yourself if it may lead to the killing of someone?
BD
Quote Actually the topic is happiness especially if it is about human rights. “rights” are what are given to someone to make them fell they are being treated “right”.
You can be miserable and still feel you have been treated right. Is this a bone you are going to hold onto for dear life despite the absurdity of your claim?Quote Either you must be single, gay, or if married your wife must be post menstrual. Go ask women in your neighborhood how they feel each month bleeding and cramping you see your the one that has no respect for women
So you, BD, MD, are declaring that menstruation is an illness. How much more chauvinistic or just plain wrong could you be?Quote Your entire view is skewered and without merit especially regarding the video which you could have stated you don't think everyone in Islam feels that way but instead you said something that disregarded the woman herself and that's why your a LOSER not simply for being an atheist but for insulting and critisizing a WOMAN after you bark about rights
Your religion rips off women’s rights. That is a fact that remains. All you appear to have against it is ad hominem, so I assume you have no actual arguments.Quote Article 18 Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance
so why are you trying to violate the rights of others?
How am I doing that?What is the penalty for apostacy from islam? How much freedom do you think christians or atheists get if they try to publicly proclaim their beliefs in downtown Tehran or Riyadh? According to the Holy Wikipedia (pbui), “The traditional Sunni schools of Islamic jurisprudence are unanimous in holding that apostasy by a male Muslim is punishable by death.”. Are those muslims real muslims BD or are they some of the millions who are not BD cult muslims and therefore are not islamic?
Anyway, by posting this irrelevance once again you are dodging the question of islamic rights abuses of women, as mandated in the koran.
Quote As far as cultures are concerned they have nothing to do with ISLAM just like American culture has nothing to do with Christianity. If you say this muslim did this crime or this christian did this crime then I would say they are criminals and not practicing Islam or Christianity. You don't eat meat but I would suspect it's not an Atheist thing, it's just your thing
Women’s rights??Stu: My morals are not arbitrary, they are principles because I think of them as such. I happen to think that sex with minors, killing others who have offended you and dictating ambiguous religious texts which leave wide open the possibility that a god wants you to blow other people up in marketplaces are less ethical acts than most of what constitutes my day, most days.
Quote What are these principles based on and what is a minor? What age? Are you also saying you have no right to defend yourself if it may lead to the killing of someone?
The principles are those universally agreed human values that result from genetic and environmental influences modified by modern ethical philosophy. The nine year old Aisha that Mo had sex with was unquestionably a minor. Yes you should have the right to defend yourself to the point of killing someone. No you should not be allowed to kill people because you took offense at their reaction to your Dark Age misogynistic religious dogmas.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 09 2010,16:38) Quote You can be miserable and still feel you have been treated right. Is this a bone you are going to hold onto for dear life despite the absurdity of your claim? Then you have just made my point
Quote So you, BD, MD, are declaring that menstruation is an illness. How much more chauvinistic or just plain wrong could you be? Did you know that women routinely call in sick to work because of cramps or heavy menstrual flow? If they can take a sick day because of it then it is a sickness sorry you have a very low regard for the health of women. When my wife tells me she is tired and doesn't feel like doing something because of her cycle I don't argue the point because she really doesn't feel good.
Quote Your religion rips off women’s rights. That is a fact that remains. All you appear to have against it is ad hominem, so I assume you have no actual arguments. There is so little you know or understand do you complain as much about pornography as you do women covering up? This is why I say you have no sense. Women in Islam have much more rights than most nonmuslims give their wives they have the right to keep and spend all their own money however they wish while the man must spend his money taking care of the wife and the family, If my wife gets hungry or wants an ice dream in the middle of the night I cannot like a nonmuslim man say “okay see you later” I have to get up and go with her. Now go ask any woman would she prefer to travel alone or with a companion and see what will the answer be.
No wonder rape is very high in America and extremely low in Saudi arabia
Quote How am I doing that? You are violating the rights by trying to take away the right to practice freely ones religion without harassment
Quote What is the penalty for apostacy from islam? How much freedom do you think christians or atheists get if they try to publicly proclaim their beliefs in downtown Tehran or Riyadh? I don't know but are you talking about Islam or the culture of some places where muslims live I keep telling you it's not the same. The Quran gives no penalty for apostacy and the Quran says let there be no compulsion in religion
Quote According to the Holy Wikipedia (pbui), “The traditional Sunni schools of Islamic jurisprudence are unanimous in holding that apostasy by a male Muslim is punishable by death.”. Are those muslims real muslims BD or are they some of the millions who are not BD cult muslims and therefore are not islamic? They are real Muslims but that doesn't mean they are practicing Islam just like the KKK here is the USA called themselves a Christian organization if that's what they are than that's what they are “Christians” it doesn't mean they are following the Bible rightly but if they say they are Christians who am I to say that their not in Islam God knows who the Hypocrites are and HE is the best judge
Quote Anyway, by posting this irrelevance once again you are dodging the question of islamic rights abuses of women, as mandated in the koran. You still have not shown me anything abusive
Quote Women’s rights?? You really don't know what a womens right should be, you just know what you would like. In some areas women should have more rights and in others men should have more rights.
Men and Women are differentQuote The principles are those universally agreed human values that result from genetic and environmental influences modified by modern ethical philosophy. You mean how every man had a RIGHT to own other men or some other formerly held universal agreement, you make no sense if you go to a native land where cannibalism is the way of life are you going to suggest they have a right to do it? You also “Modern ethical philosophy”? Who's philosophy would tha be?
Quote The nine year old Aisha that Mo had sex with was unquestionably a minor. If that's true and it wasn't illegal and it wasn't even condemned in any other Holy Book such as the Bible why is it unethical or wrong?
Quote Yes you should have the right to defend yourself to the point of killing someone. Welcome to Islam
Quote No you should not be allowed to kill people because you took offense at their reaction to your Dark Age misogynistic religious dogmas. Welcome to Islam
BD
Stu: You can be miserable and still feel you have been treated right. Is this a bone you are going to hold onto for dear life despite the absurdity of your claim?
Quote Then you have just made my point
Huh? I have pointed out that happiness is not a prerequisite to having ones rights upheld. I don’t think that was the point you were making.Stu: So you, BD, MD, are declaring that menstruation is an illness. How much more chauvinistic or just plain wrong could you be?
Quote Did you know that women routinely call in sick to work because of cramps or heavy menstrual flow? If they can take a sick day because of it then it is a sickness sorry you have a very low regard for the health of women. When my wife tells me she is tired and doesn't feel like doing something because of her cycle I don't argue the point because she really doesn't feel good.
So it’s not what you claimed then. Thanks for straightening up your story. Perhaps you could write to a few imams and point out that their koran is wrong regarding this fact.Quote There is so little you know or understand do you complain as much about pornography as you do women covering up?
Dodge. We are discussing your nasty belief system’s callous disregard for women’s rights. You still have no arguments.Quote This is why I say you have no sense.
Do you.Quote Women in Islam have much more rights than most nonmuslims give their wives they have the right to keep and spend all their own money however they wish while the man must spend his money taking care of the wife and the family, If my wife gets hungry or wants an ice dream in the middle of the night I cannot like a nonmuslim man say “okay see you later” I have to get up and go with her. Now go ask any woman would she prefer to travel alone or with a companion and see what will the answer be.
Dodge, dodge, dodge. No attempt to address the long list of rights abuses mandated in the koran.Quote No wonder rape is very high in America and extremely low in Saudi arabia
It is not the rate of rape but the rate of reporting, which is lower because Saudi Arabia systematically abuses women’s rights in its application of the koran. Would you be honest enough to actually outline the basis on which a woman may complain of rape and be taken seriously in Saudi Arabia?Quote You are violating the rights by trying to take away the right to practice freely ones religion without harassment
I am not harassing you. Harassment would be what Mo did to arabia. We do have freedom of expression in Western countries. The harassment is in your head only, and does it actually constitute harassment to point out how nasty a belief system is? Many people have died because of islamic supersensitivity to criticism, no doubt brought on by the way it hijacks the believer’s brain and makes the person confuse his own identity with the crazy ideas of his religion.Is islam the religion of peace or a manifesto of death? Muslims don’t want that question discussed, and many want to have the right to kill people who try to discuss it. That alone answers the question.
Stu: What is the penalty for apostacy from islam? How much freedom do you think christians or atheists get if they try to publicly proclaim their beliefs in downtown Tehran or Riyadh?
Quote I don't know but are you talking about Islam or the culture of some places where muslims live I keep telling you it's not the same. The Quran gives no penalty for apostacy and the Quran says let there be no compulsion in religion
Shame most muslims who claim to be following Sharia Law because they are muslims, aren’t really muslims after all. Are you the only muslim in the world? Maybe when people ask you how many muslims there are you shouldn’t give the answer of a billion. You obviously believe it is much lower.Have you joined any campaigns to have the fatwa on Salman Rushdie revoked?
Stu: According to the Holy Wikipedia (pbui), “The traditional Sunni schools of Islamic jurisprudence are unanimous in holding that apostasy by a male Muslim is punishable by death.”. Are those muslims real muslims BD or are they some of the millions who are not BD cult muslims and therefore are not islamic?
Quote They are real Muslims but that doesn't mean they are practicing Islam just like the KKK here is the USA called themselves a Christian organization if that's what they are than that's what they are “Christians” it doesn't mean they are following the Bible rightly but if they say they are Christians who am I to say that their not in Islam God knows who the Hypocrites are and HE is the best judge
Who defined islam as following just the koran?Quote You really don't know what a womens right should be, you just know what you would like. In some areas women should have more rights and in others men should have more rights. Men and Women are different
So you are ignorant and sexist after all. And you are still not addressing points such as the value the koran places on witness statements from men compared with women. Why should a woman not have the right to make a statement of equal value in the eyes of the law?Quote You mean how every man had a RIGHT to own other men or some other formerly held universal agreement, you make no sense if you go to a native land where cannibalism is the way of life are you going to suggest they have a right to do it? You also “Modern ethical philosophy”? Who's philosophy would tha be?
It is the same kind of ethical thinking that demolished slavery.Stu: he nine year old Aisha that Mo had sex with was unquestionably a minor.
Quote If that's true and it wasn't illegal and it wasn't even condemned in any other Holy Book such as the Bible why is it unethical or wrong?
Are you claiming that holy books are ethical? I would disagree strongly.Mo’s sex with a minor was wrong because as such she was not of an age to understand the emotional implications of sexual intercourse and thus could not reasonably be considered to be capable of informed consent.
Stu: No you should not be allowed to kill people because you took offense at their reaction to your Dark Age misogynistic religious dogmas.
Quote Welcome to Islam
…the religion of peace.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 10 2010,15:13) Quote Stu: You can be miserable and still feel you have been treated right. Is this a bone you are going to hold onto for dear life despite the absurdity of your claim?
I have pointed out that happiness is not a prerequisite to having ones rights upheld. I don’t think that was the point you were making.Rights mean nothing if they do nothing to assist you in having a fulfilling life.
Quote Stu: So you, BD, MD, are declaring that menstruation is an illness. How much more chauvinistic or just plain wrong could you be?
So it’s not what you claimed then. Thanks for straightening up your story. Perhaps you could write to a few imams and point out that their koran is wrong regarding this fact.No, it is exactly what I claimed it is like catching a cold every month, is a cold a sickness? Would you argue that point? Colds have different severities with different people but you would not deny that any were sick. When a women is on menses even her immune system becomes vulnerable, she is BLEEDING stu and CRAMPING her HORMONES are out of whack, She is sick and tired and she feels uncomfortable, she has to wear special accessories to bed and guard her bed against ruining the sheets with BLOOD or her clothes with BLOOD.
Quote We are discussing your nasty belief system’s callous disregard for women’s rights. You still have no arguments.
No attempt to address the long list of rights abuses mandated in the koran.You have not shown any, you have not explained what exactly is abusive and why. Don't be like ED and just throw stuff out there. Say something like I believe it is wrong that…because…and all humans should….here is why I say that …..
But you have not expressed anything like that your just like “I don't like Islam or religion because I don't like some of what I read and I don't like violence…In other words these are not arguments that can possibly validate any points you have they are opinion based complaints
Quote It is not the rate of rape but the rate of reporting, which is lower because Saudi Arabia systematically abuses women’s rights in its application of the koran. Would you be honest enough to actually outline the basis on which a woman may complain of rape and be taken seriously in Saudi Arabia? What do you mean under reporting are you saying that the report rape of America is higher and if you are what data can you provide for that? Most women are not left alone like women in non-muslim families so therefor the likelihood of a Muslim woman getting raped in the first place is drastically reduced. You don't hear of things like DATE RAPE in Practicing Muslim families because they are accompanied. See that's actually information that you can easily understand and can be proven.
Quote I am not harassing you. Of course you're not harassing me, forgive me if I made it sound like that. I am saying why would you harass a lady like that would you try to convince her something is wrong with her or her religion and if so why?
Quote Is islam the religion of peace or a manifesto of death? Muslims don’t want that question discussed, and many want to have the right to kill people who try to discuss it. That alone answers the question. Yes, it is the religion of peace and I will tell you America is a country of Peace and yet we have killed probably more people than anyone but that doesn't mean it is not peaceful because it is exactly violence that has caused America to be the unique place that people all over the world strive to be like.
Quote Shame most muslims who claim to be following Sharia Law because they are muslims, aren’t really muslims after all. Are you the only muslim in the world? Maybe when people ask you how many muslims there are you shouldn’t give the answer of a billion. You obviously believe it is much lower. As I said they are all Muslims and believe it or not Sharia Law(God's will) use to be practiced most places in the world although not by that name. It used to be illegal to commit adultery, And it actually can be civil penalties for it.
Quote Who defined islam as following just the koran? Islam is defined as following the teachings of The Prophets and Jesus Christ in submitting to the Will of God without rebelliousness
Quote So you are ignorant and sexist after all. And you are still not addressing points such as the value the koran places on witness statements from men compared with women. Why should a woman not have the right to make a statement of equal value in the eyes of the law? Because of the Nature of men and how they see each other
Quote It is the same kind of ethical thinking that demolished slavery. Wrong it was religious moral outrage that demolished slavery and today at this very hour in America there is underground “white slavery” and other types of slavery where young girls are being snatched up and sold and guess what they think it's okay because like you they all agreed to do it so that makes it right to them.
Quote Stu: he nine year old Aisha that Mo had sex with was unquestionably a minor. How is that determined? You are a man of science what “animal” waits for it's mates to reach maturity? None!
So from a scientific point of view as soon as the capability to get pregnant is there intercourse is natural otherwise there would be no eggs.Quote Are you claiming that holy books are ethical? I would disagree strongly.
Why would you disagree, what is the basis of your disagreement your morals are not founded on any set standardQuote Mo’s sex with a minor was wrong because as such she was not of an age to understand the emotional implications of sexual intercourse and thus could not reasonably be considered to be capable of informed consent. Are you serious? You sound like an [unread]fundamentalist from the bible belt. What “emotional implications” and by the way when exactly is anyone ready for these “emotional implications”? Can you even explain that or did you just conjure that up are you saying there comes a time when everyone reaches a state of emotional equilibrium and suddenly can handle all the implications of their decisions? WOW!!! You are really uninformed, there is no such state
BD
Quote Rights mean nothing if they do nothing to assist you in having a fulfilling life.
So if human rights cannot achieve that then they have no merit?Quote No, it is exactly what I claimed it is like catching a cold every month, is a cold a sickness? Would you argue that point? Colds have different severities with different people but you would not deny that any were sick. When a women is on menses even her immune system becomes vulnerable, she is BLEEDING stu and CRAMPING her HORMONES are out of whack, She is sick and tired and she feels uncomfortable, she has to wear special accessories to bed and guard her bed against ruining the sheets with BLOOD or her clothes with BLOOD.
And some women barely have any discomfort. 2:222 says menstruation is an illness, and women need cleansing as a result. This is Dark Age sexism and is medically wrong. You obviously have little understanding of how the human body works. Hormones are not “out of whack” because actually that has been necessary for them to produce the effect of menstruation, which is an essential feature of human reproduction. The hormones are actually “in whack”. Perhaps the misogynists who wrote your religious book find natural processes like this disgusting. They were ignorant and had scant regard for the rights of their women, which is still how it is in islamic theocracies.Quote You have not shown any, you have not explained what exactly is abusive and why. Don't be like ED and just throw stuff out there. Say something like I believe it is wrong that…because…and all humans should….here is why I say that ….. But you have not expressed anything like that your just like “I don't like Islam or religion because I don't like some of what I read and I don't like violence…In other words these are not arguments that can possibly validate any points you have they are opinion based complaints
Do you need me to post the list for a third time??Quote What do you mean under reporting are you saying that the report rape of America is higher and if you are what data can you provide for that? Most women are not left alone like women in non-muslim families so therefor the likelihood of a Muslim woman getting raped in the first place is drastically reduced. You don't hear of things like DATE RAPE in Practicing Muslim families because they are accompanied. See that's actually information that you can easily understand and can be proven.
You know perfectly well that women’s rights are so abused in Saudi Arabia and Iran and many other muslim-dominated countries that it would be ridiculous for a woman to even claim she had been raped. Things are so stacked against her that she is more likely to be punished for being raped than any rapist is to be convicted. Your lies are damaging to women in these backward countries, the ones that believe Mo could have sex with any woman he wanted at any time.Quote Of course you're not harassing me, forgive me if I made it sound like that. I am saying why would you harass a lady like that would you try to convince her something is wrong with her or her religion and if so why?
A lady?Stu: Is islam the religion of peace or a manifesto of death? Muslims don’t want that question discussed, and many want to have the right to kill people who try to discuss it. That alone answers the question.
Quote Yes, it is the religion of peace and I will tell you America is a country of Peace and yet we have killed probably more people than anyone but that doesn't mean it is not peaceful because it is exactly violence that has caused America to be the unique place that people all over the world strive to be like.
So you are saying it is violence that has made the US great? I wouldn’t be proud of that idea, and many Americans are disgusted by it in instances where it is true.I’ll try and remember that islam is the religion of peace the next time someone calling himself a muslim with jihad in mind conceals explosives in the cargo hold of a plane.
Quote Islam is defined as following the teachings of The Prophets and Jesus Christ in submitting to the Will of God without rebelliousness
But that is not what you have claimed. You are avoiding the obvious criticism you have for most of the islamic world that they include the sura in their religion. Why are they wrong?Stu: So you are ignorant and sexist after all. And you are still not addressing points such as the value the koran places on witness statements from men compared with women. Why should a woman not have the right to make a statement of equal value in the eyes of the law?
Quote Because of the Nature of men and how they see each other
So the US has this wrong then. Women are not up to testifying in court and having that count equally with men.This IS both sexism and an abuse of human rights. I assume you are happy to wear the label of sexist human rights denier.
Quote Wrong it was religious moral outrage that demolished slavery and today at this very hour in America there is underground “white slavery” and other types of slavery where young girls are being snatched up and sold and guess what they think it's okay because like you they all agreed to do it so that makes it right to them.
It was not “religious outrage” based on the koran, was it. Nor was it based on Judeo-christian scriptures. Both those works describe how slaves should be dealt with. Neither actually says that slavery should be outlawed. So where did this opposition to slavery come from? Not scripture or tradition, but ethical thinking that was shared with secular thinkers on the same issue. There was just as much outrage from non-believers in any Imaginary Friend.Stu: he nine year old Aisha that Mo had sex with was unquestionably a minor.
Quote How is that determined? You are a man of science what “animal” waits for it's mates to reach maturity? None!
So from a scientific point of view as soon as the capability to get pr
egnant is there intercourse is natural otherwise there would be no eggs.
I think it is quite dangerous that you have little grasp of this. I think you should not post on the issue until you have stopped your mindless knee-jerk reactions and have actually sat down and thought about it for a while. You are advocating sex with a girl who is not reasonably capable of informed consent. You are also completely wrong about the biological aspect of it. Eggs are not released as a result of intercourse. Human development is delayed for evolutionary reasons to do with maturation of the brain and language.Stu: Mo’s sex with a minor was wrong because as such she was not of an age to understand the emotional implications of sexual intercourse and thus could not reasonably be considered to be capable of informed consent.
Quote Are you serious? You sound like an [unread]fundamentalist from the bible belt. What “emotional implications” and by the way when exactly is anyone ready for these “emotional implications”? Can you even explain that or did you just conjure that up are you saying there comes a time when everyone reaches a state of emotional equilibrium and suddenly can handle all the implications of their decisions? WOW!!! You are really uninformed, there is no such state
It is not me who is dangerously ignorant. Why do you think there are ages of consent in the statutes of most countries?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 11 2010,20:56) Quote So if human rights cannot achieve that then they have no merit? Aren't rights benefits? I am telling you that if someone's life is fulfilling they have all the rights/benefits that cause happiness
Quote And some women barely have any discomfort. Just like a cold, barely being uncomfortable does not take the point away that the process of bleeding, cramps, PMS are not like being without these things
Quote 2:222 says menstruation is an illness, and women need cleansing as a result. So women shouldn't worry about hygeine when they are discharging blood and decomposed eggs?
Quote This is Dark Age sexism and is medically wrong. You obviously have little understanding of how the human body works. Hormones are not “out of whack” because actually that has been necessary for them to produce the effect of menstruation, which is an essential feature of human reproduction. The hormones are actually “in whack”. Perhaps the misogynists who wrote your religious book find natural processes like this disgusting. They were ignorant and had scant regard for the rights of their women, which is still how it is in islamic theocracies. As I said before either you are gay or lonely because there is no way that you have a woman and her hormones don't cause changes in mood near/on her period. Nowhere in the Quran is it called disgusting or nasty it is actually telling the man to give a woman comfort during that time.
Quote Do you need me to post the list for a third time?? You posting a list is nothing without an argument and you have no argument you have asserted your opinion even to the point of ignoring facts. For instance in the menses case
1. Do you agree or not that a menstrual cycle can be messy and uncomfortable
2. Do you also agree that there are various levels of discomfort(Some women have to get a monthly shot of B12)tiredness (sleepiness)and crankiness
3. Do you agree that a menstrual cycle is a monthly Cleansing of pollutants from the body to which their is no parallel in men
Quote You know perfectly well that women’s rights are so abused in Saudi Arabia and Iran and many other muslim-dominated countries that it would be ridiculous for a woman to even claim she had been raped. Things are so stacked against her that she is more likely to be punished for being raped than any rapist is to be convicted. Your lies are damaging to women in these backward countries, the ones that believe Mo could have sex with any woman he wanted at any time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
There is evidence that many women in Saudi Arabia do not want radical change. Even many advocates of reform reject Western critics, for “failing to understand the uniqueness of Saudi society.” [3][4][5] Journalist Maha Akeel is a frequent critic of her country's patriarchal customs. Nonetheless, she agrees that Westerners criticize what they do not understand. “Look, we are not asking for… women's rights according to Western values or lifestyles….We want things according to what Islam says. Look at our history, our role models.”[6]Notice that this person criticizes Saudi “CULTURE” and yearns to return to true Islamic ways. This is what I have told you again and again do not confuse cultures with religion
Quote Stu: Is islam the religion of peace or a manifesto of death? Muslims don’t want that question discussed, and many want to have the right to kill people who try to discuss it. That alone answers the question. Isn't that what were discussing?
Quote So you are saying it is violence that has made the US great? I wouldn’t be proud of that idea, and many Americans are disgusted by it in instances where it is true. You're only disgusted because you don't appreciate who gets the work done, If America and others didn't stop Hitler you would be talking German right now, would you stand by and let an old lady get mugged if you could do something about it? You seem to lack courage when it comes to the much needed ability to fight for something
Quote I’ll try and remember that islam is the religion of peace the next time someone calling himself a muslim with jihad in mind conceals explosives in the cargo hold of a plane. Confusing criminals with noncriminals is a false comparison: There are 1.8 billion Muslims if they were all criminals or terrorist who could stop them? finnish atheist kills 5 boys and 2 girls for atheism (that was a Headline) should I say that all Atheist are like that or like Atheists Pol Pot, Mau tze tung, Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin. These are the biggest killers of all time but I don't cofuse these criminals with those who are not criminals
Quote But that is not what you have claimed. You are avoiding the obvious criticism you have for most of the islamic world that they include the sura in their religion. Why are they wrong? ? needs further explanation
Quote Stu: So you are ignorant and sexist after all. And you are still not addressing points such as the value the koran places on witness statements from men compared with women. Why should a woman not have the right to make a statement of equal value in the eyes of the law? Because women think more abstractly then men and it's a proven fact:
The results from this study may help explain why men and
women excel at different types of tasks, said co-author and neuropsychologist Rex Jung of the University of New Mexico. For example, men tend to do better with tasks requiring more localized processing, such as mathematics, Jung said, while women are better at integrating and assimilating information from distributed gray-matter regions of the brain, which aids language skills.
http://www.livescience.com/health/050120_brain_sex.htmlCan't argue with science right?
Quote So the US has this wrong then. Women are not up to testifying in court and having that count equally with men. It should be the Islamic way but even in US court systems usually a Man's testimony will hold more weight naturally this is often why rapists in America get away with the crime unless there are at least two women who come forward
Quote This IS both sexism and an abuse of human rights. I assume you are happy to wear the label of sexist human rights denier. I think your being sexist attempting to make a woman be like a man, the genders are different and they excel in different areas just as the Quran says
Quote It was not “religious outrage” based on the koran, was it. Nor was it based on Judeo-christian scriptures. Both those works describe how slaves should be dealt with. Neither actually says that slavery should be outlawed. Wrong! Freeing of slaves is righteous according to the Quran
Quote So where did this opposition to slavery come from? Not scripture or tradition, but ethical thinking that was shared with secular thinkers on the same issue. There was just as much outrage from non-believers in any Imaginary Friend.
FalseQuote Stu: he nine year old Aisha that Mo had sex with was unquestionably a minor.
I think it is quite dangerous that you have little grasp of this. I think you should not post on the issue until you have stopped your mindless knee-jerk reactions and have actually sat down and thought about it for a while. You are advocating sex with a girl who is not reasonably capable of informed consent. You are also completely wrong about the biological aspect of it. Eggs are not released as a result of intercourse. Human development is delayed for evolutionary reasons to do with maturation of the brain and language.Stu you are completely wrong again and I didn't say intercourse causes the release of eggs I said that the release of eggs occur relatively early in the life of a female human and in some cases very early and with the last part of your statement you have agreed that Human development is geared towards releasing eggs when the brain and language are ready therefore from a scientific point a nine year old girl that has menses is biologically ready and according to you at that point mentally ready:
Menstruation or menses is when a girl has blood come out of her vagina for 2-7 days … Menstruation usually starts around the age of 11, even as early as 9 years old, and …
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/MensesQuote It is not me who is dangerously ignorant. Why do you think there are ages of consent in the statutes of most countries? Why do you think these ages of consent have changed so many times? You still have not answered my question about “emotionally ready”
BD
Quote Aren't rights benefits? I am telling you that if someone's life is fulfilling they have all the rights/benefits that cause happiness
Rights are rights. That is the third change of topic you have tried. Do you have trouble concentrating?Quote So women shouldn't worry about hygeine when they are discharging blood and decomposed eggs?
I guess a muslim needs his woman to clean up for him before he has sex with her again, which 2:222 appears to encourage. Does it suggest he ask if she has recovered from her illness first?Quote As I said before either you are gay or lonely because there is no way that you have a woman and her hormones don't cause changes in mood near/on her period.
I didn’t say there weren’t changes in mood associated with the menstrual cycle. Please don’t lie about what I said.Quote Nowhere in the Quran is it called disgusting or nasty it is actually telling the man to give a woman comfort during that time.
2:222 actually does not say you should comfort a woman, it says you should leave her alone.Quote 1. Do you agree or not that a menstrual cycle can be messy and uncomfortable
Sure. So what? The question is about whether it is an illness, and it is not.Quote 3. Do you agree that a menstrual cycle is a monthly Cleansing of pollutants from the body to which their is no parallel in men
No.Quote http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
There is evidence that many women in Saudi Arabia do not want radical change.
And was that evidence collected in a survey that was filled out by the male head of the household? It is the same with censuses collected throughout the muslim world, and from muslim families living in Western countries. How many muslim daughters living with their parents in any country would be allowed to write confidentially on their census forms that they identify as having no religion? You know it’s a very small number who enjoy that freedom of telling the truth.From the same article:
All women, regardless of age, are required to have a male guardian. Women cannot vote or be elected to high political positions. It is the only country in the world that prohibits women from driving. The World Economic Forum 2009 Global Gender Gap Report ranked Saudi Arabia 130th out of 134 countries for gender parity. It was the only country to score a zero in the category of political empowerment.Sexist, Dark Age religious misogynism. If women don’t want to drive, or vote, or run for office or be free of male guardianship then there is nothing to stop them electing those options in a free society. Why do they not have the choice?
Quote Even many advocates of reform reject Western critics, for “failing to understand the uniqueness of Saudi society.” [3][4][5] Journalist Maha Akeel is a frequent critic of her country's patriarchal customs. Nonetheless, she agrees that Westerners criticize what they do not understand. “Look, we are not asking for… women's rights according to Western values or lifestyles….We want things according to what Islam says. Look at our history, our role models.”[6] Notice that this person criticizes Saudi “CULTURE” and yearns to return to true Islamic ways. This is what I have told you again and again do not confuse cultures with religion
The driving thing may be particular to the wahhabis of the Kingdom of Saud but otherwise these are similar themes throughout the muslim world which has one thing in common: islam.[quoteYou're only disgusted because you don't appreciate who gets the work done, If America and others didn't stop Hitler you would be talking German right now, would you stand by and let an old lady get mugged if you could do something about it? You seem to lack courage when it comes to the much needed ability to fight for something[/quote]
I don’t see the use of violence as a route to heroism as you apparently do. The invasion of Iraq followed a diplomatic and United Nations process that was not allowed to exhaust the usual non-violent means of resolving international conflicts. That was a disgrace to the US and UK, not an heroic act. The appeasement of Hitler by Chamberlain was not heroic either but a useless effort: the eventual use of force was clearly justified in that case.Let’s say you had the skills to talk the mugger out of his attempt on the old lady’s handbag, and the conviction and vision you could express was so powerful that you could cause that mugger to turn his life around and begin contributing to society as an alternative to your citizen’s arrest of him with his subsequent incarceration at the taxpayer’s expense. Is catching the crim or causing the life change in him the act of heroism? I’m not saying it is always possible, but I would disagree that “getting the job done” is the only consideration. The US’s engagement in so many of the conflicts of the 20th Century was as often disastrous as it was helpful, I think because of the same attitude you are displaying here.
Quote Confusing criminals with noncriminals is a false comparison: There are 1.8 billion Muslims if they were all criminals or terrorist who could stop them? finnish atheist kills 5 boys and 2 girls for atheism (that was a Headline) should I say that all Atheist are like that or like Atheists Pol Pot, Mau tze tung, Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin. These are the biggest killers of all time but I don't cofuse these criminals with those who are not criminals
I know of only one person, and perhaps there is another here if you can name him, who has killed in the name of atheism. The total number of victims I would estimate to be fewer than 10. Those who shout “god is great” before blowing themselves up in a market square are certainly killing others in the name of islam, and the death toll from that religious activity runs to the tens of thousands at least. Their justifications, whether you agree with them or not, are sourced in the koran. Are all muslims killers? I never said they were. Do people kill others often because of what they think islam requires of them? Yes, many times a
year.Stu: But that is not what you have claimed. You are avoiding the obvious criticism you have for most of the islamic world that they include the sura in their religion. Why are they wrong?
Quote ? needs further explanation
My apologies, I meant to say that you do not pay attention to the hadiths. Most muslims do. Why is their version of islam wrong?Quote Because women think more abstractly then men and it's a proven fact: The results from this study may help explain why men and women excel at different types of tasks, said co-author and neuropsychologist Rex Jung of the University of New Mexico. For example, men tend to do better with tasks requiring more localized processing, such as mathematics, Jung said, while women are better at integrating and assimilating information from distributed gray-matter regions of the brain, which aids language skills.
http://www.livescience.com/health/050120_brain_sex.htmlCan't argue with science right?
The science does not say that all women are only half as valuable as witnesses. In fact there are many women who would be far more effective at recalling events as a witness than most people of either gender, and there are some men who would be more useless than most other people, including most women. Yet you would say that because there are gender biases in the averages of these measurements, rights should be denied to over half the population. That’s moronic.Quote It should be the Islamic way but even in US court systems usually a Man's testimony will hold more weight naturally this is often why rapists in America get away with the crime unless there are at least two women who come forward
Are you arguing FOR this or AGAINST it?Quote I think your being sexist attempting to make a woman be like a man, the genders are different and they excel in different areas just as the Quran says
So you are happy to be called a sexist human rights denier then. Thanks for clearing up the obvious.Quote Wrong! Freeing of slaves is righteous according to the Quran
Where?Quote Stu you are completely wrong again and I didn't say intercourse causes the release of eggs I said that the release of eggs occur relatively early in the life of a female human and in some cases very early
That’s not what the words you typed said.Quote and with the last part of your statement you have agreed that Human development is geared towards releasing eggs when the brain and language are ready
Show me where I said that.Quote therefore from a scientific point a nine year old girl that has menses is biologically ready and according to you at that point mentally ready:
The onset of mentruation does not happen at the same time as the development of understanding of sexuality and the emotional implications of a sexual relationship.Quote Menstruation or menses is when a girl has blood come out of her vagina for 2-7 days … Menstruation usually starts around the age of 11, even as early as 9 years old, and …
<a href="http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menses” target=”_blank”>http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menses%5B/quote%5D
So what?Quote Why do you think these ages of consent have changed so many times?
Have they?Quote You still have not answered my question about “emotionally ready”
Are you really that ignorant?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 12 2010,23:49) Quote Rights are rights. That is the third change of topic you have tried. Do you have trouble concentrating? What does that even mean? Rights are right? I have the right to be the head of my household now who are you or anyone else to say differently?
Quote I guess a muslim needs his woman to clean up for him before he has sex with her again, which 2:222 appears to encourage. Does it suggest he ask if she has recovered from her illness first? Yes, I would and have always made sure a women cleans herself up after her period before we have sex, in-fact most women will insist that they do also and that has nothing to do with Islam just general hygeine.
Quote I didn’t say there weren’t changes in mood associated with the menstrual cycle. Please don’t lie about what I said. Then you admit there are hormonal changes which causes mood swings?
Quote 2:222 actually does not say you should comfort a woman, it says you should leave her alone. Sexually do not bother her is what it means, you can hug her, kiss her that sort of thing. Actually it's a time when a women can feel more loved because you are being emotionally close without physical sex
Bod: 1. Do you agree or not that a menstrual cycle can be messy and uncomfortable
Quote Sure. So what? The question is about whether it is an illness, and it is not. Bod: 3. Do you agree that a menstrual cycle is a monthly Cleansing of pollutants from the body to which their is no parallel in men
Quote No. Are you serious what do you think is happening to her body? Her body is resetting her ability to get pregnant why do you think she is having a period?
Quote I don’t see the use of violence as a route to heroism as you apparently do. So using violence to stop the killing of others is being a hero?
Quote The invasion of Iraq followed a diplomatic and United Nations process that was not allowed to exhaust the usual non-violent means of resolving international conflicts. That was a disgrace to the US and UK, not an heroic act. The appeasement of Hitler by Chamberlain was not heroic either but a useless effort: the eventual use of force was clearly justified in that case. So tell me what qualifies as the right time to use force and why is it you think you have the answer?
Quote Let’s say you had the skills to talk the mugger out of his attempt on the old lady’s handbag, and the conviction and vision you could express was so powerful that you could cause that mugger to turn his life around and begin contributing to society as an alternative to your citizen’s arrest of him with his subsequent incarceration at the taxpayer’s expense. Is catching the crim or causing the life change in him the act of heroism? I’m not saying it is always possible, but I would disagree that “getting the job done” is the only consideration. The US’s engagement in so many of the conflicts of the 20th Century was as often disastrous as it was helpful, I think because of the same attitude you are displaying here. So Mercy and Compassion first? Welcome to Islam
Quote I know of only one person, and perhaps there is another here if you can name him, who has killed in the name of atheism. The total number of victims I would estimate to be fewer than 10. Those who shout “god is great” before blowing themselves up in a market square are certainly killing others in the name of islam, and the death toll from that religious activity runs to the tens of thousands at least. Their justifications, whether you agree with them or not, are sourced in the koran. Are all muslims killers? I never said they were. Do people kill others often because of what they think islam requires of them? Yes, many times a year. You're starting to make some sense now, your just still a little fuzzy on the facts. The Quran says to fight only those who fight you
Quote Stu: But that is not what you have claimed. You are avoiding the obvious criticism you have for most of the islamic world that they include the sura in their religion. Why are they wrong? Quote ? needs further explanation
My apologies, I meant to say that you do not pay attention to the hadiths. Most muslims do. Why is their version of islam wrong?Apology accepted. Muhammad in the Hadiths said to disregard anything he says that is not in the Quran. The Quran is Complete.
Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) said:
“The superiority and preference of the Holy Quran on all other books and sayings is the same as the superiority of Almighty over His creatures.”So if the Prophet says that why would I prefer any other saying of his when his direction was to study the Quran to know about Islam not to study him just like Jesus said to study and know God
Quote The science does not say that all women are only half as valuable as witnesses. In fact there are many women who would be far more effective at recalling events as a witness than most people of either gender, and there are some men who would be more useless than most other people, including most women. Yet you would say that because there ar
e gender biases in the averages of these measurements, rights should be denied to over half the population. That’s moronic.Does someone have a right to be a witness?
Quote Are you arguing FOR this or AGAINST it? I'm just stating the facts
Quote So you are happy to be called a sexist human rights denier then. Thanks for clearing up the obvious. If part of your idea of Human rights is the freedom to practice ones religion as prescribed it would be you that want to violate human rights based upon secular reasoning
[QuoteWhere?[/Quote]
Surah 90
1 Nay! I swear by this city.
2 And you shall be made free from obligation in this city–
3 And the begetter and whom he begot.
4 Certainly We have created man to be in distress.
5 Does he think that no one has power over him?
6 He shall say: I have wasted much wealth.
7 Does he think that no one sees him?
8 Have We not given him two eyes,
9 And a tongue and two lips,
10 And pointed out to him the two conspicuous ways?
11 But he would not attempt the uphill road,
12 And what will make you comprehend what the uphill road is?
13 (It is) the setting free of a slave,
14 Or the giving of food in a day of hunger
15 To an orphan, having relationship,
16 Or to the poor man lying in the dust.
17 Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.
18 These are the people of the right hand.
19 And (as for) those who disbelieve in our communications, they are the people of the left hand.
20 On them is fire closed over.BD
Quote What does that even mean? Rights are right? I have the right to be the head of my household now who are you or anyone else to say differently?[q/uote]
What do you mean by head of a household? That in itself means nothing. Are you claiming the right so speak for other people in your household?Happiness is not rights. Fulfillment is not rights. Rights are rights.
Yes, I would and have always made sure a women cleans herself up after her period before we have sex, in-fact most women will insist that they do also and that has nothing to do with Islam just general hygeine.
No, it would be the telling her it was time for her to have sex with you again that would be the koranic bit.Stu: 2:222 actually does not say you should comfort a woman, it says you should leave her alone.
Quote Sexually do not bother her is what it means, you can hug her, kiss her that sort of thing. Actually it's a time when a women can feel more loved because you are being emotionally close without physical sex
It says you should leave her alone. It doesn’t say any of the other stuff.Quote Are you serious what do you think is happening to her body? Her body is resetting her ability to get pregnant why do you think she is having a period?
Not “cleansing of pollutants from the body”, which is what you said. You were wrong. Can you see that? You changed your statement AGAIN.No longer interested in this conversation for which your only strategy appears to be to try and change the subject. At least you have managed to consistently support pedophilia.
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 13 2010,07:52) 13 (It is) the setting free of a slave,
23:1 Successful indeed are the believers
23:5 And who guard their modesty –
23:6 Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy,24:32 And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid- servants. If they be poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.
2:178 O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female.
(Slaves are not worth the same as free men…females are listed last).
16:75 Allah coineth a similitude: (on the one hand) a (mere) chattel slave, who hath control of nothing, and (on the other hand) one on whom we have bestowed a fair provision from Us, and he spendeth thereof secretly and openly. Are they equal ? Praise be to Allah! But most of them know not.
How many of your slaves does 90:13 suggest you actually free? One?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 13 2010,15:27)
I haven't supported pedophilia in the least I have supported Marriage, you have focused on the age of Marriage conveniently leaving out the marriage part to focus on sex.Quote What do you mean by head of a household? That in itself means nothing. Are you claiming the right so speak for other people in your household? Happiness is not rights. Fulfillment is not rights. Rights are rights.
You still have no real guidelines for what rights are does a child have a right to do whatever the child wants and if not why? You see your whole idea of “rights” is arbitrary and not based on any valid model or standard. To you two adults even married to other people have the RIGHT to have sex(commit adultery) am I right? You have even stated before(forgive me if I am wrong about this) that a Mother and an adult son have a right to have a sexual relationship as consenting adults, right?
Well the standard of the Quran says that Adultery and Incest are not allowed, you have no right to do it, but you disagree because you have no moral standard to go by everything is whim and opinion which allows for you to say that people have a right to be Homosexual or simply promiscuous
Quote No, it would be the telling her it was time for her to have sex with you again that would be the koranic bit. Stu: 2:222 actually does not say you should comfort a woman, it says you should leave her alone.
Your idea of leaving someone alone certainly doesn't fit mine, I see that as not to bother someone such as the term “Leave me alone”
Quote Not “cleansing of pollutants from the body”, which is what you said. You were wrong. Can you see that? You changed your statement AGAIN. No, I was right that blood and residue is not clean and does not belong in the body, do you think it can be donated at a blood drive? Of course not it is polluted! Get some sense.
Quote No longer interested in this conversation for which your only strategy appears to be to try and change the subject. At least you have managed to consistently support pedophilia. When have I said I support any “phelia”? You cannot be a pedophile if you are marrying someone and you have not shown that having a wife younger than a person is wrong in any way other than in your head
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 13 2010,15:38) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 13 2010,07:52) 13 (It is) the setting free of a slave,
23:1 Successful indeed are the believers
23:5 And who guard their modesty –
23:6 Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy,24:32 And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid- servants. If they be poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.
2:178 O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female.
(Slaves are not worth the same as free men…females are listed last).
16:75 Allah coineth a similitude: (on the one hand) a (mere) chattel slave, who hath control of nothing, and (on the other hand) one on whom we have bestowed a fair provision from Us, and he spendeth thereof secretly and openly. Are they equal ? Praise be to Allah! But most of them know not.
How many of your slaves does 90:13 suggest you actually free? One?
Stuart
It would have been better to conced the point since you asked where and I showed you, but instead you chose the path of contention and for what reason?
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