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As we grow in God’s word we will begin to see how in God’s word there is a literal understanding (outward) and a spiritual understanding (inward). We will also begin to see how God uses created things to help us understand spiritual inward truths.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
To begin this study lets look at a verse in Ephesians to help us understand baptism.
Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
In this verse God is speaking about one baptism. Do you think He is referring to the water baptism?
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Do you think that being placed under water is the baptism of the Holy Ghost He is referring to here or is it something other than the water baptism?
Remember that all throughout God’s word He uses created things to help us understand spiritual truth for example, when we read this in, John 6:54.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Do you think Jesus was referring to His literal flesh and blood?
He tells us a couple of verses later how He was speaking.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
He tells us that He was speaking spiritually when He referred to His flesh and blood.
When God’s word speaks of the one baptism He is referring to the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit in our born again experience. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is found in Luke 3:16.
Luke 3:16 John the Baptist answered, saying to them all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
This is the one baptism God spoke of in Ephesians 4:4-6. This is the one that is required in order to restore our relationship with God. It’s the baptism that cleans our conscience from the affects and bondage of sin.
Prior to the coming of the Holy Spirit, God used literal water to wash our literal bodies to symbolize how He was going to wash our spiritual bodies (inwardly) with words.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
This was the purpose of the death of the Son of God.
Eph.5:25-26 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
How He does this is through the gospel.
Make disciples by teaching them about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and all things pertaining to godliness.
Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them (immersing them in truth) in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Paul spoke about not coming to baptize with water but to preach (teach), to baptize with words, the Holy Spirit.
1 Cor.1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize (with water), but to preach the gospel (baptize with words): not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Water baptism is a shadow of what God’s word will do inwardly.
When we are taught the word of God it washes us just as water would wash our bodies (literal) the word washes our minds (spiritual).
God equates water with His word to help us understand what His word will do in our lives.
Ephesians 5:26-27 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Matthew 23:25-26 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
How do you clean the inside first? With words…
The truth of the matter is, if you have not been cleansed by the Holy Spirit baptism and are not being daily washed by the word, your water baptism ready doesn’t mean much.
So, now the big question.
Do we need to be baptized to experience salvation? The answer is, yes.
We need the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Can there be a desire within us to be baptized with water because our lack of understanding the true baptism?
The answer is, yes.
Should we fulfill this desire? The answer is yes, if we do it out of love for God and because we desire to live a life pleasing to Him. God will reveal Himself through our belief in Him and our obedience to what we do understand, we will grow and mature daily.
There is a good example in Acts 10:43-48 where we find Peter teaching (washing with words) a man named Cornelius, as Peter was teaching (washing) Cornelius and his family were baptized with the Holy Spirit without water. After receiving the Holy Spirit they were baptized with water.
Acts 10:43-48 Every person who commits himself to Jesus will be forgiven through the authority of Jesus. All of the prophets say that this is true . . .” While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came upon all those people who were listening to his speech. The Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed. They were shocked because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on people who were not Jewish. These Jewish believers heard them speaking different languages and praising God. Then Peter said, “Can we refuse to allow these people to be immersed in water? They have received the Holy Spirit the same as we did!” So, Peter commanded that Cornelius and his relatives and friends be immersed by the authority of Jesus the Messiah. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
I believe many of these spiritual truths were not completely understood by the disciples. We even find many times the disciples were in conflict between themselves because of a lack of understanding.
For those of you who are still unsure of what the true baptism is and feel a need to be baptized in water but are unable to do so, don’t worry. If you truly understand your need for a savior and you call upon Jesus to save you then He has already fulfilled all righteous for you.
Matthew 3:13-15 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.
John 8:32 “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
Blessings in Christ,John(Edited by John at 10:00 am on Feb. 4, 2004)
(Edited by John at 10:30 am on Feb. 4, 2004)Thx for your very interesting post.
My question/s
Why do the disciples of Christ preach baptism in water in the gospel that they preached?
Perhaps so that they will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit, but why were they baptized in water even after they received the Holy Spirit?
Would that not be meaningless, like turning back to the Law after receiving Grace?
Hi t8,
Baptism is not part of the law, it was given as a figure or shadow as an outward picture to help us understand an inward spiritual truth.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The water baptism which cleans the flesh is a picture of water baptism that cleans the conscience.
Conscience is an inward thing dealing with the inward man and can only be done by way of knowledge and understanding via words.
The flesh is an outward picture of the sin nature, pure water is an outward picture of God’s word.
All throughout the bible we see God giving us outward pictures to help us understand inward truths.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
All of the law is spiritual, the law written on stone is an outward picture of an inward truth.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Jesus is an outward picture of an inward truth, the Son of God and the son of man.
Everything Jesus went through literally is picture to help us understand what we need to go through spiritually.
God the Father always gives us an outward picture to understand an inward spiritual truth. If we just look at the letter (outward) of God’s word we will die, there is no eternal life in just reading the bible.
John 5:39-40 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
It’s the Holy Spirit, the mind of Christ that teaches us the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
How does He do this? By comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.
1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
These outward pictures are like parables, we have to study them to understand what God was saying in them. Jesus, the Son of God spoke the same way as His Father.
Matthew 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them.
Jesus spoke in parables but He revealed these parables to those who were close to Him, to those who obeyed Him and had a desire to know. He does the same today with us.
John 14:21 The one who obeys me is the one who loves me; and because he loves me, my Father will love him; and I will too, and I will reveal myself to him.”
I believe the disciples didn’t have a complete understanding in all that they were doing because they did not have the complete bible for instruction in righteousness. What they did have was truth but only according to what God gave them. They were being obedient to the truth they did have at the time. We have the complete Word of God and the Spirit to reveal these things to us, even the books that were sealed up until the end has come.
The Holy Spirit will take the outward picture of water baptism and explain the meaning of it to us. It’s up to us to receive His teachings and teach others the clearer inward truth, the truth that sets us free, the truth that brings life, He does the same with the whole law.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Many blessings to you my friend,
John(Edited by John at 10:33 am on Feb. 4, 2004)
(Edited by John at 10:35 am on Feb. 4, 2004)
In my research on this subject is that I found that you must look into this two fold. 1st being baptizing, 2nd church.
Church and what makes a church? People assembling together in Christ Jesus.
Baptizing is when you have accepted the Word and have repented and sought for a holy person to baptize you with water and the Holy Spirit.
[Matt 28:19] states this; Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Study guide notes:
Water baptism accompanied the proclamation of the gospel from the beginning of the church mission. It was the rite of Christians initiation used in the new testament to indicate that a person was committing himself or herself fully to Jesus Christ. By going into the baptismal water in the name of the Trinity [Matt 28:19] . Or Of Christ [Acts 19:5] believers visibly demonstrated their faith before the Christian community .
1. Water baptism "into Christ" [Gal 3:27] or "in the name of Jesus Christ." [Acts 2:38 cf. Matt 28:19] , signifies that one now is the property of Christ and has a share in His Life, His Spirit and His inheritance with God. [ROM 8:14-17] , Gal 3:26–4:7]
2. Water baptism is a response to what Christ has done for the believer. To be valid, it must be preceded by repentance [Acts2:38] and a personal faith in Christ. [ Col 2:12].
3. Water baptisms, when undertaken with a sincere heart of faith and commitment to Jesus as Lord and Savior, is a means of receiving grace from Christ. [cf. 1 Pet 3:21]
4. Water baptism is an outward sign and testimony of our receiving Christ, as Lord and Savior and of the washing away of our sins. [ Act 2:38 ,Tit 3:5; 1 Pet.3:21]
5. Water baptism portrays the union of the believer with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection [ROM 6:1-11; Col 2:11-12.] This signifies an end to a life of sin [ROM 6:3–4,7,10,12; Col 3:3-14] and the beginning of a new life in Christ [ROM 6:4-5,11; Col 2:12-13.] Therefore, water baptism involves a commitment to a life-long practice of turning one’s back on the world and all that is evil [ROM 6:6,11-13 ] and living a new life in the spirit that reflect God’s standards and righteousness. [Col 2: 1-17]. …………happymanHi thehappyman,
The church are people that have the mind of Christ, who are obeying the truth that comes from the Father through the Son to His people/person.
The congregation are those who gather in like minded faith. There are many people in the literal church who do not have the mind of Christ and do not obey the truth. God will make this known in the end.
If the true spiritual church are those who have the mind of Christ and obey the truth how does one become part of that church? Through understanding who the Father is and who the Son is and how the Holy Spirit unites us all as one in like minded faith.
Water baptism was given to us to help us understand the true spiritual meaning of the inward truth just as circumcision was given to us to help us understand the spiritual inward truth.
The outward washing with water in baptism is a picture of the inward washing of the word through teaching us.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teach all nations, baptizing/emersing them in the understanding of the gospel order.
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
Christ did not send Paul to baptize with water, but to teach the simple message of the Cross which is God’s love towards man.
Paul understood the true meaning behind water baptism and began to bring us out of the literal or letter of God’s word and into the spiritual understanding. It’s in this spiritual understanding where we find life.
So, yes we need to be baptized/taught, with water/words to be in the church/people who have the mind of Christ.
Remember, the kingdom of God is within. All these outward pictures were given to us by God to help us understand inward truth.
Many blessings to you in Christ,
John(Edited by John at 12:47 pm on Feb. 8, 2004)
you john say-
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
Christ did not send Paul to baptize with water, but to teach the simple message of the Cross which is God’s love towards man
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I ringo111 say-
Just because He went to preach, doesnt take from the importance of baptism- As It says- whoever believed was baptised- It just means that you baptise those who believe- as we were commanded-
Oh and thats why baby baptism are wrong aswell-
Because Those who understand and accept were baptised- they forced no-one.
***********************************Quote Quote: from ringo111 on 8:43 pm on Feb. 12, 2004
you john say-1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
Christ did not send Paul to baptize with water, but to teach the simple message of the Cross which is God’s love towards man
***************************
I ringo111 say-
Just because He went to preach, doesnt take from the importance of baptism- As It says- whoever believed was baptised- It just means that you baptise those who believe- as we were commanded-
Oh and thats why baby baptism are wrong aswell-
Because Those who understand and accept were baptised- they forced no-one.
***********************************Hi ringo111,
The water in baptism is used as an outward picture to help us understand an inward spiritual truth in the same way circumcision is an outward picture of an inward spiritual truth.
God’s blessings to you,
JohnIf it is only a sighn- explain this-
Luke 7:29-30
29(All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John. 30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)*Where does it say in the bible that its only a sighn??
*For i see here a huge importance-
And if thats what the baptising in water did for jews- Then what about those who accept jesus before they are baptised ^^;;
(Edited by ringo111 at 3:46 am on Feb. 13, 2004)
Quote Quote: from ringo111 on 3:00 am on Feb. 13, 2004
If it is only a sighn- explain this-Luke 7:29-30
29(All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John. 30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)*Where does it say in the bible that its only a sighn??
*For i see here a huge importance-
And if thats what the baptising in water did for jews- Then what about those who accept jesus before they are baptised ^^;;
Hi ringo111,
Remember, John the Baptist only prepared the way for Jesus. John’s baptism was the shadow of the more important baptism which was to come by Jesus.
Luke 7:27 "This is he of whom it is written: `Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who will prepare Your way before You.’
Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
John 1:26-27 John answered them, saying, "I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
The water baptism is the shadow or figure of the inward truth to help us understand.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
To baptise means to teach by means of words. It’s the understanding of these words that clears the conscience.
Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
To sprinkle is to teach in a way that is easy to understand, to have an evil conscience is dealing with the inward in how we think, pure water is God’s word.
Many blessings,
John(Edited by John at 5:22 pm on Feb. 13, 2004)
You john say-
"To baptise means to teach by means of words. It’s the understanding of these words that clears the conscience.
Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
To sprinkle is to teach in a way that is easy to understand, to have an evil conscience is dealing with the inward in how we think, pure water is God’s word. "
************************
I ringo say- this scripture is not talking about baptism-
And your therefore’s are not found in scripture- you quote a scripture that says the oposite to what you say. Its very silly-
And you did not show me any scripture to say it is only a sighn- as i asked for-
*Where does it say in the bible that its only a sighn??
*For i see here a huge importance-
And if thats what the baptising in water did for jews- Then what about those who accept jesus before they are baptised ^^;;
You did not answer these questions instead, You stated some true facts- then say your own interpretation which is not backed by your scriptures.
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You john say-Remember, John the Baptist only prepared the way for Jesus. John’s baptism was the shadow of the more important baptism which was to come by Jesus.
********************************
I ringo111 say-
True But keep in mind.
Just because the seccond baptism is greater – doesnt take the importance away from the first baptism- as found here-And i quote from scripture- NIV
Acts 10-
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues[2] and praising God.
47Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.*As you see, what you call the more important baptism(water) is just as important as the seccond-
You cannot pick bits out that you want , or that you dont want- whoever is telling you that you must not be baptized in water is liing to you.
*Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.*You think this scripture liies??? Be baptised for the forgivness of your sins. y is it that its for the forgivness of your sins???
Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
(Whole Chapter: Acts 22 In context: Acts 22:15-17)*This is why your sins are forgiven by obeying this-
Romans 6:3
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?*Dont you know that god looks down on all both good and wiked??
-Look at the urgency of baptizm
Acts 16:33
At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.Acts 8:36
As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?"[ 8:36 Some late manuscripts baptized?" 37 Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." The eunuch answered, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]*notice that when talking about baptizm- he was asked first if he believed in Jesus with all his heart- This is why baby baptism is wrong.
*Dont you know that jesus commanded the disciples to obey his commands. If they did not obey his commands they did not love him.
John 14
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever–
*you see, its all about obediance- you obey the simple earthly level teaching, then he will give the heaven sent gifts.
John 14
21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."Then the command-
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit^_^
(Edited by ringo111 at 11:52 pm on Feb. 13, 2004)
Hi ringo111,
I’m not at my laptop so I do have access to the verses.
God’s word says there is one baptism. Which baptism is it referring to, the water or the Spirit baptism.
I agree with the understanding that the willingess to be water baptized reveals a willingness to repent but repentence still takes place in the heart and life of the one repenting.
You say I have not shown the fact that water baptism in a figure, you must have missed the verse I gave.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Regarding the use of water to baptise. What of those who can not be water baptized for some reason?
Many blessings,
John(Edited by John at 3:43 am on Feb. 14, 2004)
Seen as most of the earth is covered with water- And that we need water to survive- that water could not be found for such an important event.
However- If this were the case- Im sure the holy spirit would help with a solution to the delema.
Ice covered countries- Desert countries- could be a problem. Theres no escaping the importance placed on water baptism- so i guess God will provide in such cases.
I wonder out there if anyones heard of God miraculously supplying water to baptise people in. Just a thought.
And regardless- God wieghs the heats and minds- If someone can absolutly not be baptised in water- Then I’d say God will take that in account- thats if he does not provide a way.
Still seen as its a command- i dont think there would be anywhere on earth where you would not be able to be water baptised.
Hi ringo111,
Did you notice the verse on water baptism being a figure. This tells me that I sould not focus on the outward or the figure but rather what the figure represents.
Repentance takes place in the heart. When the kingdom of God was ushered in water baptism was used as a picture or figure to help us understand. If you look in God’s word, He always gives us an outward picture to help us understand an inward truth.
I believe it’s in Romans where God says, "Through understanding the things that are seen we can understand the things that are not seen."
As far as there being no water to baptise is not what I’m referring to. What I’m referring to is ones ability to be water baptised, emursed in water.
We recently had a huge fire in my area (The Station Night Club). Many people lost their lives, some we burned so bad that there body parts were burn off. In these types of cases where someone is unable to be emursed, this is what I’ referring to. Some of these people never recovered and died in the hospital.
There is nothing I can do outwardly to make the inward right. God says He will clean the inside of the cup first, the outside will take care of itself. For the kingdom of God is not in eat or drink (outward) but rather it’s in righteous, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit (inward).
Many blessings,
John(Edited by John at 5:18 am on Feb. 14, 2004)
You are wrong on two counts-
First- You must be baptised with water-
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.Secconed you must clean the inside , then the outside will be made clean.
Matthew 23:25-28
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.and also
Luke 11:39-41
39Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41But give what is inside the dish[10] to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.Thirdly – Yes god weighs everything- Its best to do as we are commanded.
(Edited by ringo111 at 6:05 am on Feb. 14, 2004)
Hi ringo111,
I can see by how you understand scripture that you are still in the letter which kills and have not understood the spiritual.
Tell me, how does one become born of water? Do you think by putting someone under water they are born of it or do you think the more biblical understanding of this is being born from above by the word of God.
The inside of the cup is a picture of our minds. How God cleans it is by the washing of water by the word.
Our outward lives are an expression of how we think inwardly. Nothing is done outwardly without it first being thought of inwardly. Our thoughts are what God is concerned with. If He can clean our thoughts by giving us His thoughts (His word) our outward lives will be clean also.
Remember, the kingdom of God is within, so seek the inward application of God’s word in how it applies to the inner man, our minds.
God is looking for people who worship Him in Spirit (inwardly) and in truth (revealed in Jesus).
Many blessings,
JohnJesus did not come with only hidden blessings- But in action- Healings- Telling people to not horde to themselves-
The disciples with action-
With teachings like- If someone has posessions but has no pity on your brother- how can the love of GoD be in you.
The disciples Baptised with water For the Forgivness of sins- Because they shared in christs death by doing so-You Are triing to nullify and spiritulize a command of GoD- Which he made known Through His servant Jesus.
And it is plain to everyone what you are triing to do ^_^.
This is what we have been given, why rebell against it???
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.This physical act is a spiritual act-
Hi ringo111,
All throughout God’s word He gives us outward pictures that we can see and study to help us understand spiritual truth.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Water in the bible represents words, they can be of God, pure and clean, or they can be not of God, bitter and unclean.
James 3:10-12 Out of the same mouth (words) proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.
When does someone get washed (corrected) with words? When someone else speaks these cleansing words to them.
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Belly in God’s word represents our mind.
Proverbs 26:22 The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.
Notice words go into the belly, words have to do with thought.
As we are taught the truth about God’s love regarding us which is contained in the gospel this is called baptizing or being immersed in water (words).
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
Paul was not sent to baptize with water, he was sent to preach (teach) baptize with words regarding the plain and simple understanding of the cross.
Lets read a good example of what it means to cleans with words.
Acts 10:34-47 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: (notice Peter spoke, words) "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35. "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36. "The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ He is Lord of all 37."that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38. "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39. "And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40. "Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41."not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42. "And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43. "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.” 44.While Peter was still speaking these words, (Notice, while Peter was still speaking, words) the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word (heard the word). 45. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47. "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
I ask you, did the Spirit come to them as a result of water immersing or word immersing? Washing with water or washing with words?
So you see, the true immersing takes place with words, the literal water is used to help us understand this, it was given so we can read and understand what is taking place. Your next question will probably be, why did Peter ask if any should forbid water so that they can be baptized?
You have to understand that the bible was written for us. Many of the symbols, pictures and figures God gave us through these men were not completely understood by them. We have the complete bible and the Holy Spirit to search the scriptures comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.
1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Baptism can be viewed in the same way as circumcision. Back then, when the people where growing in God’s revealed truth, they too had arguments regarding the spiritual meaning of circumcision. They too had a hard time coming out of the literal and into the spiritual or inward application.
Acts 11:1-3 NOW THE apostles and the brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying, "Why did you go to uncircumcised men and eat with them?"
We too argue regarding baptism, Why? Because we’re not letting the Spirit gives us the meanings of these things. If I were to only read the bible where it mentions the need for circumcision I would be preaching circumcision to everyone and arguing about it. Now I’m reading of how the disciples baptized with water and I’m stuck on it, why? Because I have not yet matured to the next level of understanding which is the spiritual.
Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Many blessings,
John(Edited by John at 8:46 am on Feb. 15, 2004)
You try to cover over the simple Teachings,
Which seem foolish to those who want to gloss things over-You are not studiing in depth , but are making things up-
I quote
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.*repent and be baptised- in the name of jesus for Forgivness of sins-
*And you will recieve the promise of the holy spirit-
1)- This does not say that the only way to recieve the holy spirit is to be baptised-
-It states that you will recieve the Holy Spirit this after repenting and being baptized.
2)- It does not state that recieving the holy spirit is the only necessary part-
– it states wow!! youve recieved the holy spirit!! Now get baptised.
Acts 10 44-48
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues[2] and praising God.
47Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.Im sleeping- Ill probs reply to many of your points laterz.
I am trying to understand more about baptism and my thinking for now is that it is something we do physically that leads to a spiritual union with God. Of course the act itself cannot be what gives us salvation otherwise any unrepentant sinner could simply be baptized and be saved. Rather it is the inward working of God's Spirit and his Word and our mind being changed that really matters (as John has mentioned).
It is the repentant and humble heart of a sinner who sees God's mercy and grace and understands who Jesus is, who is able to be baptized. In other words acceptance of the gospel leads to baptism, which is the correct response of the hearer.
But the question being raised here is do we need to actually go through the physical baptism in order to receive the spiritual washing of the inner man.
Well on one hand we can say that the physical is only there as a representation of the spiritual and this is true, but we can also say that the physical enacts the spiritual.
An example of the latter would be Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.And we know that our mouth is physical and is a tool for expressing words which are expressions or fruit that resides in our heart. Yet our words even though they are fruit are of utmost importance.
So the physical is an expression of the spiritual and if so, then perhaps this is why the disciples baptized even after some had received the Holy Spirit. Perhaps it could be said that the physical act of baptism is an expression that one is willing to lay his/her life down for Christ as it says in Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
So yes John I agree with you that the spiritual is what really matters and the physical an image or expression of the spiritual in not just baptism, but everything.
E.g Physical water is a representation of the River of Life. Physical light is a representation of Spiritual light. God's light. Eden was a representation of Heaven, hence the name Paradise. Our physical bodies are a representation of the spiritual to come etc.
But in saying this, do we ignore the physical if we understand the spiritual. I personally do not think so. As I mentioned before, we often express the spiritual through the physical and this is why Christ spoke in parables (physical things) so that we could understand the spiritual.
He even cursed a fig tree based on it's physical lack of fruit.
But should we give up on the physical all together in order to be more spirtually minded?
Well 1 Thessalonians 5:23 says
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.So we are instructed to keep the whole man blameless and that includes the body too.
But the fact that believers received the Holy Spirit before being baptized proves that you can be saved before the physical act of being immersed in water and I can only conclude that we are baptized in water immediately after we accept the gospel and we will then receive the Holy Spirit. But if we receive the Holy Spirit before being baptized in water (which is possible), then we should be baptized as an expression of what has already taken place in the heart in the same way our words are an expression of what is in our heart.
Now we know that spiritual is greater than physical, but God created the physical realm and it was good. Even Jesus is an expression of God, so expressions and images are of God and they exist in order to see the things that are invisible.
So perhaps God wants us to be baptized in water as it is an expression and God is not only into expressions, but he judges our expressions as they show the true heart of a man in the same way an apple shows you what kind of tree it belongs to.
So I think that John is right in saying that the spiritual is the real thing and ringo111 is right in saying that we should obey God's commands. The outcome of this is that we are truly saved when God's Spirit dwells in us as the Spirit cannot dwell inside a sinful being. But our expressions matter a lot and are subject to judgement. E.g we are judged by our actions and our words even though they are only symbolic of a mans heart.
In fact we can even receive reward based on our actions, so they are very important. It's not as if the physical realm was created by the Devil. It was created good, but it is in a fallen state and therefore it must be subjected to the perfect things of God through discipline.
I finish with the following scripture:
Hebrews 6:1-2
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,and of faith in God,
2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.So instructions about baptisms is an elementary teaching that is part of the foundation of our faith. Yet we are told to move on to more spiritual things as we go onto maturity. This doesn't mean that we leave the foundation altogether, rather it means that we start here and should build up on that foundation rather than spending our lives in the foundation itself.
So most believers should hear the gospel and then be baptized in water to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and from there should move onto more mature things.
If a person believes and hasn't been baptized or heard of baptism, then they can still receive the Holy Spirit and later they should be baptized in water as an expression of what God is already doing in their heart (as we should imitate God), knowing that the act of immersing oneself in water is not the moment of salvation for them, but when they received God's Spirit.
After all Christ himself was baptized with John's baptism even though John said that he was the one who should be baptized by the Christ and are we not suppose to imitate Christ? So Christ's example was to do the physical and in doing so he received the spirtual, the Holy Spirit that descended on him in bodily form.
Jesus wasn't baptized in water to show us a symbol, rather this physical outward expression lead to a truly spiritual blessing and the beginnings of his powerful ministry and so it should be for all new believers.
God often blesses us spirtually when we do physical things. Such as giving physical things can results in receiving spirtual things. So whatever we bind or lose on earth (physical) will be done in Heaven (spiritual). So it is with baptism.
Hi ringo111,
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I’ll break this verse down to it’s inward application. To repent means to turn away or to change your mind. To baptize or immerse is to wash. The name of Christ is not referring to His name but rather His character. When the bible speaks of a name it’s referring to the character behind the name, not the name itself. The remission of sin, I understand that there are some bibles that say for the forgiveness of sin but it should read,for the remission of sin. What happens when cancer goes into remission? It stops. Be baptized for the remissions of sin and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
In other words, what Acts 3:38 is saying is, turn from your self, your character and be taught the character of Christ, when you do, sin will stop in your life, your spirit (mind, thoughts) will be holy.
To think that just because you are put under water will stop sin is to miss the very important meaning God wants us to have in the picture He gave us in water baptism.
Take a look at Simon, he believed and was baptized in water.
Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Then a few verses later he is being rebuked by Peter and threatened that he will perish if he doesn’t turn from his wickedness.
Acts 8:20-22 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! "You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. "Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
The true more important understanding of water baptism is the inward application of it.
I understand tha some verses say the Holy Spirit is a him but that’s just a misunderstanding in many of these verses. If you continue to search out the attribute of the Holy Spirit you will find it being called, it. You will also find the Holy Spirit being poured out.
Many blessings to you,
John(Edited by John at 6:45 pm on Feb. 16, 2004)
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