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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2008,10:03) Hi Stu, Those who claim to follow Jesus and interfere politically have their own churchianity websites.
Yes it is hard to tell who the 'real' christians are. Maybe they are the ones who have stripped off the lunacy of Paul and the other self-important early christian meddlers and are attempting to follow… um, Jesus?Anyway, in the words of Monty Python's Brian, 'You don't need to follow anyone!'.
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2008,14:12) Hi Stu,
Neither you do but it is wise.
'It is wise' goes with 'it is written', really, doesn't it.WHY is it wise to follow? With most gurus, as with all kinds of teacher the whole point is to establish yourself as a thinking, competent human able to operate independently. That is not to say you should stop learning, but all individuals should seek to outgrow their teachers, and no teacher is all things to all people. That is most evident with Jesus, and I think it is numbskulls like Paul who made him out to be something he probably never claimed to be.
You're not terribly keen on reason are you Nick, yet the ability to reason is one of the few attributes that separate you from your ape ancestors. I think you should exercise your capacity for reason, not starve it, but of course you make the choices in your life and far be it from me to try and tell you, who knows the mind of the one who knows everything.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 07 2008,21:20) But what of the commandment not to kill?
Obviously there is a distinction to be made between cold blooded murder and putting someone t death. You need to read the whole Bible to get the big picture. YHWH also “commands” that certain offenses must be punished by death, like for instance: murder (Lev 24:17; Deu 19:11-13), idolatry (Lev 20:2; Deu 17:2-7), witchcraft (Lev 20:27), adultery (Lev 20:10; Deu 22:21,22), homosexuality (Lev 20:13), bestiality (Lev 20:15,16), rape (Deu 22:25-27), incest (Lev 20:17), and blasphemy (Lev 24:11-16,23). This was not done away with in the NT either, Romans 13 speaks of goverments being given the authority to “bear the sword” against evil. This is an obvious reference to capital punishment.Ezekiel 13:19
And will you profane Me… killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live…?Quote Does the wholesale slaughter attributed to god in the OT justify judicial killing?
Two different issues.Quote Is the commandment nulified by the hypocritical way god has broken his own law?
Does the maker or all things, the giver of life and sustainer of the Universe not have the right to bring some of His own creation from one phase of existence into another?Quote What credibility does a 'lawgiver' have if he himself does not obey the laws?
See above.Quote We may imprison people for the safety of others, but should we judge when we have been told not to judge others?
Curiously, you continue to use biblical verses for your moral frame of reference.Quote The deity that thus commands also breaks it when he himself judges others. Isn't judicial killing two examples in succession of breaking the orders of the celestial dictator who in any case can't follow his own principles?
See the point I made above.Quote I don't believe in any of this (apart from condemning the primitive logic that often supports the use of the death penalty) but I am curious about how you square your beliefs to obey and to ignore at the same time.
I'm curious to know how you square your anti-death penalty stance with the evolutionary principle survival of the fittest. I mean isn't it overtly beneficial for our species to terminate the lives of those deletarious to the human species as a whole (e.g. those with a propensity for murder?). WHAT IS THE BASIS FOR YOUR MORAL JUDGEMENT THAT ALL KILLING EXCEPT SELF DEFENSE IS WRONG??You say killing is wrong. I ask you why? Why is it wrong? You continue to avoid this question Stuart.
Blessings
Well for one Jesus said killing is wrong, any kind of killing.
Never return evil with evil.
Turn the other cheek.
Love your enemies and bless them.
I send you like sheep among wolves.
He did not resist but let himself be nailed to a cross.
He rebuked Peter when he struck the guard.
Followers of Jesus do not Kill.
Be wise as serpents and as HARMLESS AS DOVES.
Did Yeshua oppose capital punishment for violation of the mosiac laws? Where is the verse that shows this?
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.” (Matt 5:17)
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 08 2008,14:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2008,14:12) Hi Stu,
Neither you do but it is wise.
'It is wise' goes with 'it is written', really, doesn't it.WHY is it wise to follow? With most gurus, as with all kinds of teacher the whole point is to establish yourself as a thinking, competent human able to operate independently. That is not to say you should stop learning, but all individuals should seek to outgrow their teachers, and no teacher is all things to all people. That is most evident with Jesus, and I think it is numbskulls like Paul who made him out to be something he probably never claimed to be.
You're not terribly keen on reason are you Nick, yet the ability to reason is one of the few attributes that separate you from your ape ancestors. I think you should exercise your capacity for reason, not starve it, but of course you make the choices in your life and far be it from me to try and tell you, who knows the mind of the one who knows everything.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Did you think our master is just a human guru?
You cannot lift your eyes above the human horizon can you.
Bedevilled by doubts and utterly reliant on science to guide you makes you a pathetic sight.Jesus is the way the truth and the life.
No one can come to the Father except through him.
We want a new relationship with our God and have found that joy and peace in Christ.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 08 2008,19:54) Did Yeshua oppose capital punishment for violation of the mosiac laws? Where is the verse that shows this? “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.” (Matt 5:17)
You are quoting catholic scriptures.Jesus was not a pharisee or saducee. He was an essene. The essene didn't believe in killing anyone.
Catholics made Jesus a messiah for the wrong sect of Judaism.
Hi Nick
Quote Did you think our master is just a human guru?
That is the view of one of NZ’s leading christian theologians (whatever they actually do to make life better for anyone). I think you could reasonably call Jesus a guru, and Paul a deluded promoter.Quote You cannot lift your eyes above the human horizon can you.
Bedevilled by doubts and utterly reliant on science to guide you makes you a pathetic sight.
Pathetic is in the sight of the beholder. I do not even need to call your brain and senses puny, you have already done that for yourself. The word bedevilled is your spin. As I don’t believe there is such a thing as the devil, you will have to interpret for me.Quote Jesus is the way the truth and the life.
According to Paul he is.Quote No one can come to the Father except through him.
Yep, Paul again. Still don’t hear any Jesus in there.Quote We want a new relationship with our God and have found that joy and peace in Christ.
Or Paul.Stuart
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 08 2008,01:32) Well for one Jesus said killing is wrong, any kind of killing. Never return evil with evil.
Turn the other cheek.
Love your enemies and bless them.
I send you like sheep among wolves.
He did not resist but let himself be nailed to a cross.
He rebuked Peter when he struck the guard.
Followers of Jesus do not Kill.
Be wise as serpents and as HARMLESS AS DOVES.
Here's your peaceful and loving Jesus.===============================
Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and [bhe will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb[/b].
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
===============================Revelation says those who make the mistake one day of taking the mark, even out of ignorance and a desire to feed their family, will be tormented forever and ever while Jesus watches them. Show me where YHVH ever called for eternal torment of people. Death is one thing but to torture people for an eternity is the sign of a sadistic and twisted mind.
Read all of Rev 14, and say Jesus is a peaceful god man.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia.
You delude yourself.
Its better to have a doctrine of peace and love then one of genocide, cannabalism, and everlasting torment.
Sure, if Jesus can be a god, so can I. After all, he was human, I'm human. Now YHVH said He is not a man, so I can't be G-d, but like I said I can be every bit as much as a god as Jesus.
One thing is for sure though: my religion won't punish people for an eternity just because they do not choose my way. I'm not that selfish.
Sorry, no memberships. That is for organized religion that makes one feel you must be part of a human club to fit in.
Pay your tithes to worthy charities.Hi Tow,
Now you are free from the whore why take up the free offer of God
and be reborn into the body of Christ?Other than immaculate conception and praying to saints and Mary, why does everyone call Catholicism “whore” when they use the same bible you do?
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