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Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 26 2007,08:31) [/quote] Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 25 2007,14:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 25 2007,00:43) Towshab,Dec. wrote:[quote=Nick Hassan,Dec. 24 2007,18:32]Hi Tow,
Was the miracle of Elisha raising the dead
written out of evil men's hearts?
No but killing people including children was.
TowYou say…
Quote
Yes, yours because Jews and those who do not believe that G-d has brought the new covenant yet will not call your biased translation of the Hebrew scripture 'ours'. We would much rather call it Tanakh, and we prefer the translations by real Hebrew scholars with no Christian bias.Then you say…
Quote
No but killing people including children was.Can you give me 1 translation that eliminates the killing of woman and children by the Jews under YHWH's command?
Quote I already answered this. No offense, but I can see why Christians believe certain things: they ignore all other things because they must believe what they believe .
LOL. Who is ignoring? I believe all of the scriptures! It is you that ignores what is written by claiming bias.
And it is you that claims that certain “real Hebrew scholars with no Christian bias” interpret them differently!
Where are they?
Quote I already told you that the supposed ordering of killing has nothing to do with the translation: it is there. I speak of verse that are translated with Christian bias to support Christian theology. Give me an example! Ill give you a couple…
Gen 6:13
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.Men, woman, and children alike drown at the hand of YHWH.
YHWH is not just a big teddy bear, but he is also a God of anger and wrath, a jealous God that can and will judge man at his own will.
Deut 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.Deut 7:2
And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:I truly find it amazing that you claim the God of the Hebrew scriptures is your God and you dont accept the nature of his wrath.
God has not changed he is a God of Love and mercy, but also as scriptures show his Spirit will only strive with mens rebellion so long before he judges them.
Quote Quote The bias is trying to reword the English in many instances to try to match the OT to Jesus when he cannot be found there. Yet, you give me no examples of what you call “real Hebrew scholars with no Christian bias”.
What Hebrew Translation are you refering to that excludes YHWH from commanding the Jews to kill the enemys of God?
Quote I do not speak of the record of men blaming G-d for the evil they wanted to do. Yes I noticed you do not speak of a lot in your proposed source for truth called the Tanakh and Torah.
In fact based on what you and Tim are proposing is that a huge part of the Hebrew text is either corrupt or biased or shouldnt be there.
Quote No, what we propose (at least I) is that a loving G-d who created us would not be a G-d who would command the slaughter of people. Then again you deny your own proposed writtings, which you say has bias. Did not God raise up Pharoah to show his power to the then known world by using Moses and Aaron to bring destruction upon them including the killing of the 1st born.
Regardless as to whether you see Moses or Aaron as part of this destruction and judgment brought on the Egyptians.
Still your proposed God, YHWH killed the first born sons and drown Pharoahs armys in the sea by the hands of Moses and Aaron.
Quote
He can create, why could He not carry out His own killing? To say G-d commanded such brings Him down to the level of humanity.What is the difference? God still destroyed and killed. So much of the Jewish history found in the Hebrew scriptures shows YHWH causing the Israelites enemys to take them into captivity and destroy and punish them for their rebellion. But you would deny this.
Quote So the writings there are not corrupt, they are the result of men wanting to blame G-d for their own wanton actions. Again, proof?
These are just your words.Quote Quote Again, just like you say that Christians who killed and persecuted Jews were not Christians, I say that those who slaughtered others did not do so because G-d told them .
Oh, so you agree now?Quote Yes, I agree that many people have wicked hearts, regardless of what religion they do or don't adhere to. I was merely trying to get you to see that. Instead, you just try to say those people where not Christians. They may confess Christianity and not be followers of Christ. The GT gives us the instructions and examples of what a true follower of Christ or Christian is. And no Christian or follower of Yeshua in the GT was taught to kill or killed.
Quote The difference is my Bible the GT, which you say is “fairy tales” not once commands Christians to kill their enemys. Not once is there a recorded incident of such. However your Bible the “Tanakh” or Torah shows God commanding the Jews to kill and conquer their enemys. It seems that it would suit you better to believe in the God of the GT. Quote Then why do you accept that the father of Jesus is YHVH? Can YHVH change? Is Jesus not supposed to be of the same will as his father? Then you are making a case that YHVH is definitely not your god. Again, you have failed to see that God is a God of wrath and judgment as well as a God of Love.
The Hebrew scriptures as well as the GT reveal there are times and seasons with God. God now has chosen to reveal his great Love to humanity through the New Covenant.
We live in the dispensation of grace. If not, why is the YHWH you preach silent? Where is that God that spoke by the Prophets through clouds of Glory and pillars of fire, and through mighty Angels that wiped out entire citys? Where is that God? Is he asleep?
Or is it that YHWH has seasons of revealing who he is and what he is to man?
I dont think he is asleep, but I believe he has spoken and is speaking to us in these last days by Yeshua.
Heb 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Quote Quote If you accept that G-d DID tell them to do so, then be a man and unbiased and accept that Christians were killing Jews because their god told them to do it and that they were every bit a Christian as you claim to be .
I accept all that is written in the scriptures. The fact is Christians base their belief on a New Covenant where Yeshua died for the sin of the world. Under this new Covenant the righteous demands of a Holy God have been met.
Quote So the unchanging G-d suddenly changed because of Jesus? No. But God is not just a sweet little teddy bear. He is also a God of wrath and judgment.
Can we limit him and his nature? Have we suddenly come to a full understanding of who he is?
Quote Therefore just as YHWH told Noah that he would no more destroy the world by water so now God no longer commands men to kill his enemys but rather to love them. Quote So much for an unchanging G-d. Times and seasons Tow. Day of grace under the New Covenant. When is the last time YHWH has destroyed a city?
Quote This is the dipensation of 'Grace”. But there will be a day of reckoning once again, when Yeshua will return in the Glory of the Father with the Holy Angels.
Yeshua is the key my friend.
So who are we to question God?
Deut 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.1 Chron 16:33
Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD, because he cometh to judge the earth.Pss 82:8
Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.Pss 96:13
Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.Ps 98:9
Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.Every man will give account in that day!
Quote I like your response. In it, you practically reveal that YHVH is not the father of Jesus, a fact I've known for some time now. You're coming closer to the truth. How could you know that YHWH is not the Father of Yeshua if you dont even know Yeshua?
In fact it shows that God is more than just a mushy, moochy, moochy God.
Times and seasons…
Ecc 3:1
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;1 Thess 5:1
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.Yeshua will once again return to the earth in the Glory of the Father…
2 Thes 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:Yeshua first as the Lamb. This second time as the King and Judge of the earth.
God, “YHWH” has not changed!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 26 2007,04:53) Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 25 2007,23:11) HI Tow, I must say that I sincerely respect and admire the deep belief of Nick and WorshippingJesus.
But I can not understand how otherwise rational people can convince themselves that the evil things that God supposedly commanded
were not evil because God can do no evil.I would think that God would be happier if His people chose not to believe what was falsely written about Him rather than
try to twist it into something good when it was not.
I wonder if Nick or WJ really thought that God was telling them to go kill every man, woman and child in a certain city,
if they would. I suspect that, being decent men, they would deny that God would even command such a thing. They would probably say that it was coming from satan. So why do they believe that God would command it of Moses?People like Hitler claimed that he was doing what God wanted when he commited genocide against the Jews.
Did anyone believe that?Tim
Hi Tim4.,
Make your mind up.
Either what is written is true or untrue.
If you decide it is untrue then you had better go in search of writings you can believe come from God.
Hi Nick,
I have made up my mind.
What is written is written. God warned us that some of it is from the lying pen of the scribes and gave us the brains to, with His help, discern the truth from the fiction. Not everyone even tries.
It is too easy to worship the bible and merely say that every word has to be the truth.Tim
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 25 2007,23:24) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 26 2007,08:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 25 2007,14:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 25 2007,00:43) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 25 2007,11:50) nick wrote:Hi Tow,
Was the miracle of Elisha raising the dead
written out of evil men's hearts?
No but killing people including children was.
TowYou say…
Quote
Yes, yours because Jews and those who do not believe that G-d has brought the new covenant yet will not call your biased translation of the Hebrew scripture 'ours'. We would much rather call it Tanakh, and we prefer the translations by real Hebrew scholars with no Christian bias.Then you say…
Quote
No but killing people including children was.Can you give me 1 translation that eliminates the killing of woman and children by the Jews under YHWH's command?
Quote I already answered this. No offense, but I can see why Christians believe certain things: they ignore all other things because they must believe what they believe .
LOL. Who is ignoring? I believe all of the scriptures! It is you that ignores what is written by claiming bias.
You still are not comprehending. I think I see a connection now: those who believe in scriptural infallibility have problems with comprehension as well, so perhaps they believe the way they do because it is easier to do so.
(1) I do not believe that the loving Creator G-d would have men do His 'dirty work' by telling them to slaughter people, whether you find this in Tanakh or the Christian version, the OT. So I am not concerned with translation bias in this: its there in the original Hebrew (2) the bias is in the translation of passages in a manner to support Christian theology.
Is 53 and Daniel 9 are prime examples of passages that have been butchered by Christian translations. Ps 22:16 is another. All of these have been translated in a manner to show Jesus when the original Hebrew does not support it.
Quote And it is you that claims that certain “real Hebrew scholars with no Christian bias” interpret them differently! Where are they?
Translate not interpret. With the proper translation you do not have the biased interpretation. You can up a correctly translated Tanakh from Judaica Press, Artscroll, or Jewish Publication Society (not the earliest versions).
Quote Quote I already told you that the supposed ordering of killing has nothing to do with the translation: it is there. I speak of verse that are translated with Christian bias to support Christian theology. Give me an example! Ill give you a couple…
Gen 6:13
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.Men, woman, and children alike drown at the hand of YHWH.
YHWH is not just a big teddy bear, but he is also a God of anger and wrath, a jealous God that can and will judge man at his own will.
Deut 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.Deut 7:2
And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:I truly find it amazing that you claim the God of the Hebrew scriptures is your God and you dont accept the nature of his wrath.
Where are the verses where G-d supposedly had men carry out His 'dirty work'? None of the verse you supplied above supports what I have been speaking of: people killing other people and saying G-d told them to do it. If G-d wants to take a life He will do it, not have people slaughter innocent children.
Again, you will accept that G-d told men to slaughter whole races of people, yet you won't accept that Christians killed Jews. I call that hypocritical.
Quote God has not changed he is a God of Love and mercy, but also as scriptures show his Spirit will only strive with mens rebellion so long before he judges them. Quote Quote The bias is trying to reword the English in many instances to try to match the OT to Jesus when he cannot be found there. Yet, you give me no examples of what you call “real Hebrew scholars with no Christian bias”.
Again, just pick up a properly translated Tanakh from Artscroll, Judaica Press, or later versions of Jewish Publication Society. There are some others out there but I don't recall them off hand.
Quote What Hebrew Translation are you refering to that excludes YHWH from commanding the Jews to kill the enemys of God? You are a broken record like your br
other Nick. I have already explained that the bias in translation is where Christians wanted to support the idea of Jesus in Tanakh. I said nothing of what you are speaking of. Its that comprehension problem you're having.Quote Quote I do not speak of the record of men blaming G-d for the evil they wanted to do. Yes I noticed you do not speak of a lot in your proposed source for truth called the Tanakh and Torah.In fact based on what you and Tim are proposing is that a huge part of the Hebrew text is either corrupt or biased or shouldnt be there.
Quote No, what we propose (at least I) is that a loving G-d who created us would not be a G-d who would command the slaughter of people. Then again you deny your own proposed writtings, which you say has bias. Did not God raise up Pharoah to show his power to the then known world by using Moses and Aaron to bring destruction upon them including the killing of the 1st born.
But who killed the first-born in this case? YHVH, not the people. Like I said, G-d doesn't have men do things like this, He has the power of Himself. You don't seem to be making the connection. Here is an example for you:
1Sa 15:3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'”
If G-d could bring plagues upon Egypt, when did He weaken to the point that He needed men to carry out the above brutality? No, it was the wanton desires of man to destroy his enemies and say G-d told them to do it. Again, if you accept the above, be honest and accept that those Christians who killed Jews were Christians just as you, doing the work of their god.
But you won't yet you'll accept the above passage as true? You sir, are what one calls a hypocrite.
Quote Regardless as to whether you see Moses or Aaron as part of this destruction and judgment brought on the Egyptians. Still your proposed God, YHWH killed the first born sons and drown Pharoahs armys in the sea by the hands of Moses and Aaron.
'My proposed G-d, YHWH'? So you again admit that He is not your G-d. That's twice now.
Quote Quote
He can create, why could He not carry out His own killing? To say G-d commanded such brings Him down to the level of humanity.What is the difference? God still destroyed and killed. So much of the Jewish history found in the Hebrew scriptures shows YHWH causing the Israelites enemys to take them into captivity and destroy and punish them for their rebellion. But you would deny this.
No I accept much of this. G-d has chosen His people for a reason, and one of them is to be an example. Why won't you extend this to Christians doing the same to the Jews? Oh wait, you say those people weren't Christians. Christian man speak with forked tongue.
Quote Quote So the writings there are not corrupt, they are the result of men wanting to blame G-d for their own wanton actions. Again, proof?
These are just your words.Compare them to the proper translations. I gave some above. Do Jews try to translate your GT? Then why should Christians want to mistranslate the Hebrew scriptures?
Quote Quote Quote Again, just like you say that Christians who killed and persecuted Jews were not Christians, I say that those who slaughtered others did not do so because G-d told them .
Oh, so you agree now?Quote Yes, I agree that many people have wicked hearts, regardless of what religion they do or don't adhere to. I was merely trying to get you to see that. Instead, you just try to say those people where not Christians. They may confess Christianity and not be followers of Christ. The GT gives us the instructions and examples of what a true follower of Christ or Christian is. And no Christian or follower of Yeshua in the GT was taught to kill or killed.
Yet within your own religion, people are often saying others are not true Christians for various reasons: baptism, trinity, speaking in tongues, etc. Who makes up the rules on who is a 'true' Christian?
Quote Quote The difference is my Bible the GT, which you say is “fairy tales” not once commands Christians to kill their enemys. Not once is there a recorded incident of such. However your Bible the “Tanakh” or Torah shows God commanding the Jews to kill and conquer their enemys. It seems that it would suit you better to believe in the God of the GT. Quote Then why do you accept that the father of Jesus is YHVH? Can YHVH change? Is Jesus not supposed to be of the same will as his father? Then you are making a case that YHVH is definitely not your god. Again, you have fai
led to see that God is a God of wrath and judgment as well as a God of Love.So you are saying He is the G-d of wrath in the OT and a G-d of love in the GT? How convenient for you.
Quote The Hebrew scriptures as well as the GT reveal there are times and seasons with God. God now has chosen to reveal his great Love to humanity through the New Covenant. Man, 4000 years of wrath and 2000 years of love. You should start out a relationship like that and see if it works: give someone 4 years of wrath first and see if they are still around for 2 years of love.
Quote We live in the dispensation of grace. If not, why is the YHWH you preach silent? Where is that God that spoke by the Prophets through clouds of Glory and pillars of fire, and through mighty Angels that wiped out entire citys? Where is that God? Is he asleep? Can I not say the same about your Jesus? I see my G-d every day in creation. I see your Jesus in the splintered religion of Christianity. Gandhi said it best: “I like your Jesus but don't like your Christians”. If Christians are the example of Jesus, someone failed.
Quote Or is it that YHWH has seasons of revealing who he is and what he is to man? I dont think he is asleep, but I believe he has spoken and is speaking to us in these last days by Yeshua.
Heb 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Quote Quote If you accept that G-d DID tell them to do so, then be a man and unbiased and accept that Christians were killing Jews because their god told them to do it and that they were every bit a Christian as you claim to be .
I accept all that is written in the scriptures. The fact is Christians base their belief on a New Covenant where Yeshua died for the sin of the world. Under this new Covenant the righteous demands of a Holy God have been met.
Quote So the unchanging G-d suddenly changed because of Jesus? No. But God is not just a sweet little teddy bear. He is also a God of wrath and judgment.
Can we limit him and his nature? Have we suddenly come to a full understanding of who he is?
Quote Therefore just as YHWH told Noah that he would no more destroy the world by water so now God no longer commands men to kill his enemys but rather to love them. Quote So much for an unchanging G-d. Times and seasons Tow. Day of grace under the New Covenant. When is the last time YHWH has destroyed a city?
Quote This is the dipensation of 'Grace”. But there will be a day of reckoning once again, when Yeshua will return in the Glory of the Father with the Holy Angels.
Yeshua is the key my friend.
So who are we to question God?
Deut 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.1 Chron 16:33
Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD, because he cometh to judge the earth.Pss 82:8
Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.Pss 96:13
Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.Ps 98:9
Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.Every man will give account in that day!
Quote I like your response. In it, you practically reveal that YHVH is not the father of Jesus, a fact I've known for some time now. You're coming closer to the truth. How could you know that YHWH is not the Father of Yeshua if you dont even know Yeshua?
In fact it shows that God is more than just a mushy, moochy, moochy God.
Times and seasons…
Ecc 3:1
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;1 Thess 5:1
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.Yeshua will once again return to the earth in the Glory of the Father…
2 Thes 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:Yeshua first as the Lamb. This second time as the King and Judge of the earth.
God, “YHWH” has not changed!
There is no reason to know Jesus. The only place he is found in Tanakh is Deu 13. And what is with this Yeshua thing? Are you a messianic?Hi Tow,
Unless he knows you when he meeets you as judge no matter how righteous you believe you are or how religious you may be you life is a waste and apart from the mercy of God you must face His wrath.Hi tow,
I have walked through the door of Christ.
Born catholic and soon to become obsessively so, dependant on their false works, but He drew me from the beauty and harmony of scripture to realise that was where truth was to be found and I repented and sought baptism into Christ 25 years ago. Since then I have shed the falsehoods and my work is to uphold the lifeline thrown to men and to defend it against constant attack here by foolish philosophers and the ignorant and deceived.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 26 2007,23:00) Hi tow,
I have walked through the door of Christ.
Born catholic and soon to become obsessively so, dependant on their false works, but He drew me from the beauty and harmony of scripture to realise that was where truth was to be found and I repented and sought baptism into Christ 25 years ago. Since then I have shed the falsehoods and my work is to uphold the lifeline thrown to men and to defend it against constant attack here by foolish philosophers and the ignorant and deceived.
To borrow the words of your Jesus“And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch”
Is that ditch deep Nick?
Tow
You say…
Quote 1Sa 15:3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'” If G-d could bring plagues upon Egypt, when did He weaken to the point that He needed men to carry out the above brutality? No, it was the wanton desires of man to destroy his enemies and say G-d told them to do it. Again, if you accept the above, be honest and accept that those Christians who killed Jews were Christians just as you, doing the work of their god.
Again, my GT and my faith that is based on the New Covenant does not teach killing Jews or any human being.
However my Faith in the Tanakh gives me the true picture of who God is by bringing balance to his wrath, judgment and his love.
But your proposed (and I should say hijacked) version of YHWH and the Tanakh is based on what you pick and choose to be written or commanded by YHWH.
And in doing so you are making the writers of the Hebrew scriptures liars when they say YHWH commanded them to do as your verse shows, and in fact they did what YHWH commanded many times and recieved blessing from YHWH for their obedience.
You claim to serve the God of the Hebrews yet deny their writings and picking and choosing what you want, then attempt to disprove Christianity using your cherry picked scriptures.
This of course gives you no credibility, for you teach from what you believe to be a faulty or biased text about a God that you have created in your own mind and that dosnt agree with your proposed faulty and biased text.
That is laughable.
Yes tow,
Perhaps we could put your expurgated version of the Tanakh in the OTHER WRITINGS thread as it is your own bible.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2007,12:38) Hi Tow,
Make sure the light in you is not darkness
For O how deep that darkness can be.
Since GT is not similar to Tanakh, and you seem to worship your bible, what makes you think you truly have any light?Here is what I know:
Psa 18:28 For it is you who light my lamp; the LORD my God lightens my darkness.
Psa 27:1 Of David. The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The LORD is the stronghold of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
Psa 56:13 For you have delivered my soul from death, yes, my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of life.
Psa 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.
Hi tow,
You disfigure and dismember the written Word of God
and this casts a poor light on your relationship with Him.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 27 2007,13:11) Tow You say…
Quote 1Sa 15:3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'” If G-d could bring plagues upon Egypt, when did He weaken to the point that He needed men to carry out the above brutality? No, it was the wanton desires of man to destroy his enemies and say G-d told them to do it. Again, if you accept the above, be honest and accept that those Christians who killed Jews were Christians just as you, doing the work of their god.
Again, my GT and my faith that is based on the New Covenant does not teach killing Jews or any human being.
However my Faith in the Tanakh gives me the true picture of who God is by bringing balance to his wrath, judgment and his love.
But your proposed (and I should say hijacked) version of YHWH and the Tanakh is based on what you pick and choose to be written or commanded by YHWH.
Just as you choose to turn your god into a trinity when such is not found in the words of Tanakh or even the GT? So you should not be approaching me with such when you know good and well that your god was formed somewhere around 325 CE. If I choose not to believe that YHVH commanded people to slaughter helpless children, then I will leave you you're right to add to your bible with the trinity. At least mine has me believing the love and mercy of my G-d while yours dishonors YHVH by sharing His glory with Jesus and the 'third person' of the holy spirit.
Quote And in doing so you are making the writers of the Hebrew scriptures liars when they say YHWH commanded them to do as your verse shows, and in fact they did what YHWH commanded many times and recieved blessing from YHWH for their obedience. And you make the writers of both the Tanakh and your GT into liars by turning G-d into a three people in one.
Quote You claim to serve the God of the Hebrews yet deny their writings and picking and choosing what you want, then attempt to disprove Christianity using your cherry picked scriptures. Really? None of the passages about G-d commanding Jews to kill others has anything to do with Jesus' lack of qualifications as King Messiah. Not a one. You and Nick just choose to harp on that point of my beliefs to distract from the reality that Jesus was not foretold anywhere in Tanakh except Deu 13. You figure if you can discredit my beliefs then I will be dissuaded but sorry to say, none of what I 'cherry pick' affects Jesus one iota.
Quote This of course gives you no credibility, for you teach from what you believe to be a faulty or biased text about a God that you have created in your own mind and that dosnt agree with your proposed faulty and biased text. That is laughable.
Ah, just as I said. You try to undermine my 'credibility' when I can equally do the same to you with your extra-biblical belief in the trinity. You claim infallibility of both Tanakh and GT yet you go to extra sources to formulate a theology found in neither.That is laughable.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2007,17:06) Hi tow,
You disfigure and dismember the written Word of God
and this casts a poor light on your relationship with Him.
You believe in the infallibility of men's writings under inspiration rather than seeking a true personal relationship with G-d. That tells me that you have no relationship with him but a fetish for letters on a page.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 27 2007,14:34) Yes tow,
Perhaps we could put your expurgated version of the Tanakh in the OTHER WRITINGS thread as it is your own bible.
Let me ask you Nick, why were some books left out of both canons of scripture? Weren't men prior to us also 'cherry picking' scripture? So it was OK for them to do so but I cannot for my own personal benefit because I do not see G-d in certain passages?quote=Towshab,Dec. 28 2007,10:08]
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 27 2007,13:11) Tow You say…
Quote 1Sa 15:3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'” If G-d could bring plagues upon Egypt, when did He weaken to the point that He needed men to carry out the above brutality? No, it was the wanton desires of man to destroy his enemies and say G-d told them to do it. Again, if you accept the above, be honest and accept that those Christians who killed Jews were Christians just as you, doing the work of their god.
Again, my GT and my faith that is based on the New Covenant does not teach killing Jews or any human being.
However my Faith in the Tanakh gives me the true picture of who God is by bringing balance to his wrath, judgment and his love.
But your proposed (and I should say hijacked) version of YHWH and the Tanakh is based on what you pick and choose to be written or commanded by YHWH.
Quote
Just as you choose to turn your god into a trinity when such is not found in the words of Tanakh or even the GT? So you should not be approaching me with such when you know good and well that your god was formed somewhere around 325 CE. If I choose not to believe that YHVH commanded people to slaughter helpless children, then I will leave you you're right to add to your bible with the trinity. At least mine has me believing the love and mercy of my G-d while yours dishonors YHVH by sharing His glory with Jesus and the 'third person' of the holy spirit.Tow
Yes I knew that was comming. But thats okay because I have scriptures to support my belief and do not deny any of the GT or the Tanakh when they dont suit my belief in God.
I dont whine “Bias” Corrupt text”, “Faulty Translation” when it dosnt fit my theology!
Quote And in doing so you are making the writers of the Hebrew scriptures liars when they say YHWH commanded them to do as your verse shows, and in fact they did what YHWH commanded many times and recieved blessing from YHWH for their obedience. Quote
And you make the writers of both the Tanakh and your GT into liars by turning G-d into a three people in one.Really, can you show me? I have scriptures. I deny none! I dont cry corrupt text or anti-Trinitarian bias!
Quote You claim to serve the God of the Hebrews yet deny their writings and picking and choosing what you want, then attempt to disprove Christianity using your cherry picked scriptures. Quote Really? None of the passages about G-d commanding Jews to kill others has anything to do with Jesus' lack of qualifications as King Messiah. Not a one. You and Nick just choose to harp on that point of my beliefs to distract from the reality that Jesus was not foretold anywhere in Tanakh except Deu 13. You figure if you can discredit my beliefs then I will be dissuaded but sorry to say, none of what I 'cherry pick' affects Jesus one iota. You are looking in the mirror now. You think that you can discredit Christianity by using the Tanakh and picking and choosing what you want while denying the rest.
You even proudfully boast that you have destroyed the faith of some here. But can you name one person that does no longer believe in Yeshua who once was a believer in him and confessed salvation in him?
You have no credibility because you do not even believe in all of the Tanakh or Torah.
Why you might as well just use the koran to disprove Christianity, because apparently to you it has just as much inspiration from God as the Hebrew scriptures, seeing that you think that men without the inspiration of God wrote the Torah and Tanakh, but instead were just men claiming that God told them to kill his enemys, therefore telling lies as they wrote the Hebrew scriptures.
Quote This of course gives you no credibility, for you teach from what you believe to be a faulty or biased text about a God that you have created in your own mind and that dosnt agree with your proposed faulty and biased text. That is laughable.
Quote Ah, just as I said. You try to undermine my 'credibility' when I can equally do the same to you with your extra-biblical belief in the trinity. You claim infallibility of both Tanakh and GT yet you go to extra sources to formulate a theology found in neither. That is laughable.
Again. I dont have to deny the inspiration of the Hebrew scriptures or the GT to support my belief.
I dont cry “Bias” “Corrupt Text” “Bad Tranlation”.
I am not a Hebrew or Greek Scholar and dont put myself above those who were. The Holy Spirit has shown me the truth and confirmed it by the written scriptures.
You on the other hand deny many of the miracles and acts of the proposed God that you serve in the Hebrew scritpures claiming that you are a soldier for the Jew.
You should examine your own faith and what you base it on before you attack the beliefs of others using a text that you yourself claims is full of errors!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 27 2007,20:07) Quote
Just as you choose to turn your god into a trinity when such is not found in the words of Tanakh or even the GT? So you should not be approaching me with such when you know good and well that your god was formed somewhere around 325 CE. If I choose not to believe that YHVH commanded people to slaughter helpless children, then I will leave you you're right to add to your bible with the trinity. At least mine has me believing the love and mercy of my G-d while yours dishonors YHVH by sharing His glory with Jesus and the 'third person' of the holy spirit.Tow
Yes I knew that was comming. But thats okay because I have scriptures to support my belief and do not deny any of the GT or the Tanakh when they dont suit my belief in God.
I dont whine “Bias” Corrupt text”, “Faulty Translation” when it dosnt fit my theology!
Haha, I see you getting slaughtered in the trinity thread quite often. Its so hilarious to see how much Christians are so blind and confused about the nature of their god. Is he 3-in-1? Just one with Jesus as his mamzer (your god committed adultery with Mary but that's OK, your god and Jesus break Torah whenever it suits them).
And you constantly harp on me saying “Christian bias” or “faulty translation” when the only time I really did that in relation to Jesus was with Is 53:10/ Oh, but now I'm saying it all the time huh? No, you're just looking at one instance to try to make a point. The fact is, Christian bibles DO butcher the Hebrew text whenever it suits them BUT I was able to show that bad translation aside, Is 53:10 still did NOT apply to Jesus because of the word 'soul'. A 'soul' is redeemed by blood, someone is not redeemed by giving a 'soul'.
Beyond that, how many blood sacrifices were ever resurrected? NONE. So Jesus' supposed sacrifice was not real by many aspects, one being that he was supposedly resurrected, canceling out the sacrifice.
Quote Quote And in doing so you are making the writers of the Hebrew scriptures liars when they say YHWH commanded them to do as your verse shows, and in fact they did what YHWH commanded many times and recieved blessing from YHWH for their obedience. Quote
And you make the writers of both the Tanakh and your GT into liars by turning G-d into a three people in one.Really, can you show me? I have scriptures. I deny none! I dont cry corrupt text or anti-Trinitarian bias!
Then show me the word trinity in the bible. Just one time. Show me one verse that says something like 'Jesus, his father, and the holy spirit are all part of one god'. You can't. The trinity, like so many other parts of your pagan religion, was added because pagans still struggled with the idea of true monotheism. Just like the Jews struggled with other peoples having a king while they did not. Gotta keep up with the Jones, right?
Plus, if the Jews were guilty of killing a god? And finally, the RCC needed Jesus to be a god so his mom could be turned into who she was.
All so very pagan.
Quote Quote You claim to serve the God of the Hebrews yet deny their writings and picking and choosing what you want, then attempt to disprove Christianity using your cherry picked scriptures. Quote Really? None of the passages about G-d commanding Jews to kill others has anything to do with Jesus' lack of qualifications as King Messiah. Not a one. You and Nick just choose to harp on that point of my beliefs to distract from the reality that Jesus was not foretold anywhere in Tanakh except Deu 13. You figure if you can discredit my beliefs then I will be dissuaded but sorry to say, none of what I 'cherry pick' affects Jesus one iota. You are looking in the mirror now. You think that you can discredit Christianity by using the Tanakh and picking and choosing what you want while denying the rest.
Even if I believed in total infallibility of the Tanakh, I can still show where Jesus was NOT King Messiah. Yet you'd try to find some other why to discredit ME and ignore the scriptural evidence against your savior.
Your messiah is NOT of Israel. If he is a messiah, perhaps he is the savior of Zoroastrism.
Quote You even proudfully boast that you have destroyed the faith of some here. But can you name one person that does no longer believe in Yeshua who once was a believer in him and confessed salvation in him? I'm not going there out of respect for those people. Those people are dealing with it now. I know of two at least and while you think I am 'boasting' I am not. I did nothing but show them reality. They would likely find it on their own if they were truly after the truth.
And you are using the typical Christian approach when someone comes to the realization of the Christian lie: “they never knew Christ to begin with”. And you may be right because believing in a lie is not true belief, is it?
Quote You have no credibility because you do not even believe in all of the Tanakh or Torah. And you have no credibility because you turn YHVH into a 3-headed god of paganism. Seriously, who disrespects G-d more, one who cannot believe He would command people to kill children or the one who worships an idol? Your sin is found as one of the Ten Commandments. Where do you see 'Thou shalt believe every word of Tanakh'?
Quote Why you might as well just use the koran to disprove Christianity, because apparently to you it has just as much inspiration from God as the Hebrew scriptures, seeing that you think that men without the inspiration of God wrote the Torah and Tanakh, but instead were just men claiming that God told them to kill his enemys, therefore telling lies as they
wrote the Hebrew scriptures.No, I do not believe in Koran, but I ask why don't you? Both Islam and Christianity boast they come from Abraham and his people.
I don't think the people lied when they wrote it per se. Perhaps they truly felt led to slaughter people, just like the Christians truly felt led to persecute and kill Jews. How many times in life have you been inspired to do something that later turned out to be the wrong thing to do?
I just do not believe that G-d WOULD have led men to kill children and entire populations. G-d would not need men to do this for Him. It would be a weak god who could not take care of problems like this. My G-d is not weak and petty.
And my G-d cannot die while yours did.
Quote Quote This of course gives you no credibility, for you teach from what you believe to be a faulty or biased text about a God that you have created in your own mind and that dosnt agree with your proposed faulty and biased text. That is laughable.
Quote Ah, just as I said. You try to undermine my 'credibility' when I can equally do the same to you with your extra-biblical belief in the trinity. You claim infallibility of both Tanakh and GT yet you go to extra sources to formulate a theology found in neither. That is laughable.
Again. I dont have to deny the inspiration of the Hebrew scriptures or the GT to support my belief.
I dont cry “Bias” “Corrupt Text” “Bad Tranlation”.
No, you just believe the words of other men who came along much later and formulated a theology and killed others who did not. As a whole, trinitarians have been the Christians who have been doing all the killing: Jews, unitarians, or whoever didn't believe Jesus was a god. There was even a law for many years that one was to be put to death for not believing in Jesus' deity.
If you believed ONLY in the bible, then you'd at least be a unitarian. I take away, you add to. How different is that?
Quote I am not a Hebrew or Greek Scholar and dont put myself above those who were. The Holy Spirit has shown me the truth and confirmed it by the written scriptures. Ah, the HS. Is the HS different in different people? Then it is not G-d's HS because G-d is always the same, therefore His spirit is always the same. Since Nick does not believe in trinity and you do, which one of you has the HS? After all, you BOTH believe in scriptural infallibility, why the different belief in the nature of your god?
Quote You on the other hand deny many of the miracles and acts of the proposed God that you serve in the Hebrew scritpures claiming that you are a soldier for the Jew. Another misrepresentation, fairly typical on this site. I am no 'soldier for the Jew'. I am a believer in the one true G-d of all flesh, YHVH. You claim to believe in Him (though you do not because He is not triune), are you a 'soldier for the Jew' too?
What happened WJ? Where are all the miracles? Why does G-d not see fit to use men to make miracles any more? Why only in scripture do we see them? Please answer that.
Quote You should examine your own faith and what you base it on before you attack the beliefs of others using a text that you yourself claims is full of errors!
Sorry, but miracles and commands of genocide aside, I can still show Jesus is NOT the Jewish King Messiah. None of the passages on the messianic age have anything to do with miracles (except for resurrection of the dead) or genocide. But it makes you feel safer to attack my 'credibility' than to face the truth. That is OK, most Christians are riding on the river of denial. Like an alcoholic, drug addict, or person with a mental condition, the first step is to stop denying.
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