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Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,20:21) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,13:00) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,18:40) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,11:27) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2008,16:49) Hi KJ,
Men are sure they can walk in their own righteousness but it is as filthy rags and they are all sinners called to repentance.
Prov 14
12There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
The writer of the Proverb knew nothing of Jesus, so which way was the right way when the writer penned this?
The right way from the beginning of creation until now is obedience to God's commandments.But Jesus is the propitiation for the sins (all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God) of all who have striven to obey him from the beginning even until the end.
Did you know that means of atonement without blood were already being practiced well before Jesus hit the scene? Therefore, Jesus' death as a blood sacrifice would have been “old school” yet not quite so because it had zero resemblance to actual blood sacrifice.
Hi KJ:There is no atonement for sin other than the provision that God has made.
- Jon 3:10 When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
Any blood sacrifice there?
- Num 16:47 Then Aaron took it as Moses had spoken, and ran into the midst of the assembly, for behold, the plague had begun among the people. So he put on the incense and made atonement for the people.
Atonement without blood, in Numbers? GASP.
- Num 31:50 “So we have brought as an offering to the LORD what each man found, articles of gold, armlets and bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces, to make atonement for ourselves before the LORD.”
Bloodless once more. Numbers is the 4th book in Torah too.
- Isa 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs.
Isa 6:7 He touched my mouth with it and said, “Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven.”No shedding of blood needed. Must I go on?
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,13:29) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,20:21) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,13:00) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,18:40) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,11:27) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2008,16:49) Hi KJ,
Men are sure they can walk in their own righteousness but it is as filthy rags and they are all sinners called to repentance.
Prov 14
12There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
The writer of the Proverb knew nothing of Jesus, so which way was the right way when the writer penned this?
The right way from the beginning of creation until now is obedience to God's commandments.But Jesus is the propitiation for the sins (all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God) of all who have striven to obey him from the beginning even until the end.
Did you know that means of atonement without blood were already being practiced well before Jesus hit the scene? Therefore, Jesus' death as a blood sacrifice would have been “old school” yet not quite so because it had zero resemblance to actual blood sacrifice.
Hi KJ:There is no atonement for sin other than the provision that God has made.
Shall I show you where blood sacrifice was definitely not the only means of atonement in the OT?
Hi Kj:I can't really address you relative to this except you show me. So, go ahead and show me.
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,13:42) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,20:21) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,13:00) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,18:40) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,11:27) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2008,16:49) Hi KJ,
Men are sure they can walk in their own righteousness but it is as filthy rags and they are all sinners called to repentance.
Prov 14
12There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
The writer of the Proverb knew nothing of Jesus, so which way was the right way when the writer penned this?
The right way from the beginning of creation until now is obedience to God's commandments.But Jesus is the propitiation for the sins (all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God) of all who have striven to obey him from the beginning even until the end.
Did you know that means of atonement without blood were already being practiced well before Jesus hit the scene? Therefore, Jesus' death as a blood sacrifice would have been “old school” yet not quite so because it had zero resemblance to actual blood sacrifice.
Hi KJ:There is no atonement for sin other than the provision that God has made.
- Jon 3:10 When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
Any blood sacrifice there?
- Num 16:47 Then Aaron took it as Moses had spoken, and ran into the midst of the assembly, for behold, the plague had begun among the people. So he put on the incense and made atonement for the people.
Atonement without blood, in Numbers? GASP.
- Num 31:50 “So we have brought as an offering to the LORD what each man found, articles of gold, armlets and bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces, to make atonement for ourselves before the LORD.”
Bloodless once more. Numbers is the 4th book in Torah too.
- Isa 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs.
Isa 6:7 He touched my mouth with it and said, “Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven.”No shedding of blood needed. Must I go on?
Hi Kj:If there was atonement for these sins, why then Yom Kippur?
Is Jesus the “lamb” of God or the “goat” of God? Please answer that before you step too deeply into the question of Yom Kippur.
While you are at it, show me where there is one incidence of a sin offering that atones for sins that are AFTER the sacrifice. All sacrifices were made for prior sins. Thus, according to OT Law, Jesus would only (at best) be a sacrificial offering for those who preceded his death.
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,14:21) Is Jesus the “lamb” of God or the “goat” of God? Please answer that before you step too deeply into the question of Yom Kippur.
Hi KJ:One step at a time, if there was already antonement for the sins as you have quoted, why then Yom Kippur?
Because some men held onto old forms of sacrifice while others progressed in their faith. Jesus being a blood sacrifice only appealed to the ones who had not progressed and still believed that God wanted to kill animals because of the goof ups of man. The sacrificial system is a primitive holdover.
The bible is full of humans attempting to please God in their own way. And we still do it today.
Quote 2 Corinthians 4
4:1
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness *, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.Also, I will answer your question on Yom Kippur when you answer why the temple and sacrifices continued for 40 years after Jesus.
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,21:46) Quote 2 Corinthians 4
4:1
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness *, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Snore. So Paul also had people who doubted HIS gospel.Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,14:48) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,21:46) Quote 2 Corinthians 4
4:1
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness *, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Snore. So Paul also had people who doubted HIS gospel.
Hi KJ:There were some who did not believe then and there are some who will not believe in spite of every thing now.
Quote
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither * * cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,14:48) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,21:46) Quote 2 Corinthians 4
4:1
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness *, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Snore. So Paul also had people who doubted HIS gospel.
Hi KJ,
Psalm 25:14
The secret of the LORD is for those who fear Him,And He will make them know His covenant.
Isaiah 48:16
” Come near to Me, listen to this:From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
Matthew 13:35
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.I do not think you will be happy
till all are as confused as you are.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2008,22:05) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,14:48) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,21:46) Quote 2 Corinthians 4
4:1
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness *, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Snore. So Paul also had people who doubted HIS gospel.
Hi KJ,
Psalm 25:14
The secret of the LORD is for those who fear Him,And He will make them know His covenant.
Since His covenant was with the Jews when this was written, why do you mention it? You are not Jewish.Quote Isaiah 48:16
” Come near to Me, listen to this:From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
Again, to Jews NOT Gentiles (you).Quote Matthew 13:35
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.I do not think you will be happy
till all are as confused as you are.
You are confused although you will deny it. I am not impressed by your denial.Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,21:58) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,14:48) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,21:46) Quote 2 Corinthians 4
4:1
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness *, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Snore. So Paul also had people who doubted HIS gospel.
Hi KJ:There were some who did not believe then and there are some who will not believe in spite of every thing now.
Quote
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither * * cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
So I must mindlessly believe just because another has written I must?The Gospel of John presented a different Jesus than the synoptic gospels. Also, the Jesus in GoJ was a very anti-semitic Jesus. How do you explain such discrepancies?
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,15:15) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,21:58) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,14:48) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,21:46) Quote 2 Corinthians 4
4:1
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness *, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Snore. So Paul also had people who doubted HIS gospel.
Hi KJ:There were some who did not believe then and there are some who will not believe in spite of every thing now.
Quote
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither * * cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
So I must mindlessly believe just because another has written I must?The Gospel of John presented a different Jesus than the synoptic gospels. Also, the Jesus in GoJ was a very anti-semitic Jesus. How do you explain such discrepancies?
Hi KJ:You have a “free will” and God will not force you to do anything. He has just told you that He loves you and that He has made provision for you to be reconciled to Him and have all of your sins forgiven. You can reject that love for you if that is your desire.
The questions that you are directing at me are your opinions.
Quote Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! 8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. 9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,22:57) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,15:15) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,21:58) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,14:48) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,21:46) Quote 2 Corinthians 4
4:1
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness *, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Snore. So Paul also had people who doubted HIS gospel.
Hi KJ:There were some who did not believe then and there are some who will not believe in spite of every thing now.
Quote
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither * * cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
So I must mindlessly believe just because another has written I must?The Gospel of John presented a different Jesus than the synoptic gospels. Also, the Jesus in GoJ was a very anti-semitic Jesus. How do you explain such discrepancies?
Hi KJ:You have a “free will” and God will not force you to do anything. He has just told you that He loves you and that He has made provision for you to be reconciled to Him and have all of your sins forgiven. You can reject that love for you if that is your desire.
The questions that you are directing at me are your opinions.
Quote Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! 8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. 9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
As what you write are yours. Plus, the salvation of the OT does not compare with the salvation of the NT so throwing out Isaiah is comparing apples to oranges. Salvation in the OT was deliverance from physical oppression and that is why the Jews expected such a Messiah. In fact, Jesus even thought he was that Messiah (see Is 61-62). Paul changed the message to spiritual salvation.Hi Kj,
A verse from any part of the OT can live for you today.
You divide and divide and divide the beautiful unity.Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,15:15) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,21:58) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 20 2008,14:48) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 19 2008,21:46) Quote 2 Corinthians 4
4:1
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness *, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Snore. So Paul also had people who doubted HIS gospel.
Hi KJ:There were some who did not believe then and there are some who will not believe in spite of every thing now.
Quote
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither * * cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
So I must mindlessly believe just because another has written I must?The Gospel of John presented a different Jesus than the synoptic gospels. Also, the Jesus in GoJ was a very anti-semitic Jesus. How do you explain such discrepancies?
Hi Kj,
Perhaps the whole of John should go.
Is your bible starting to shape up or more cuts coming?
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