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Quote (seek and you will find @ Feb. 17 2008,15:20) Mandy Did you even look at all the scriptures that I gave You? Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,I was waiting until tonight to answer your post. It's been a busy night here and I wanted to give you a thoughtful answer, which I will attempt to do now.
Side note – tonight my husband and eight year old daughter went to a “Daddy and daughter Ball” and I was helping her get ready. Daddy put on his best suit and tie, and I curled her hair and allowed her to wear my pearls. Oh, it was one for the memory books!
They were picture-perfect together.OK, some thoughts on your post:
Quote But why does it matter so much that it has to be written in the O.T. too.
It matters because there should be a connection between the original plan and it's outcome. The OT tells us of the original plan and what to expect is coming…. How else are we to recognize what is coming?Quote As far as Jesus preexisting is concerned, who was there with God when He created men. It says ” Let us make men in Our Image.”
So who was He talking about?
With all due respect, I knew you would quote this verse; everyone does when they are trying to prove Jesus with God in the beginning. The truth of the matter is, there are many ways to interpret this verse and arranging Jesus there with God is only one of them. Look at your NIV Study Bible, for instance, it has an entirely different opinion and it's very interesting. This verse does not prove that Jesus is the “us” that God was referring to – it's only one of the options – it's the option you and your husband prefer, but many others do not Because of this I cannot say for certain that it speaks of Jesus.Quote Not only that when you hear God speaking it is Jesus. God is only a title.
Again, with all due respect, this is a huge stretch for me. When God speaks in the OT he is very clear that it is him alone speaking and that there are no others. He is the only God. I believe him. Plus, there is no mention of Jesus or *another* that is also him. You will be hardpressed to prove this point in scripture, I'm afraid.Quote Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold a Virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
Jesus wasn't named Immanuel.Quote Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold a Virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
This “sign” of the virgin birth and promised son was for Ahaz. But wait, Mary doesn't give birth until the NT…….how could this serve as a sign for Ahaz? Unless of course Isaiah was referring to anothe virgin…..Quote Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child to us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: And the government shall upon His shoulders: And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
When Jesus was “given”, when he was born, the government was not upon his shoulders. Nor was he called “Wonderful” or anything of the sort. He was called insane and demon possessed! And he certainly didn't bring peace. So I wonder, since this passage does not speak of a “second giving” of this son – how can we place Jesus and what he accomplished within this description truthfully?Quote Isaiah 11:1 ” And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of His roots.” verse 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, the spirit of Wisdom and understanding, the spirit of Counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
Yes, it's comforting to quote these verses and attribute them to our dear Lord. However, if you keep reading on you will see that this stem of Jesse will also cause the wolf to live with the lamb. It doesn't say that it will take two trips to accomplish this.It simply says that when this root of Jesse appears – thus and so will happen. Peace will come. It will be a done deal. This didn't happen when Jesus appeared. And there is not talk of a second appearance in this passage. Hmmmm, next!
Quote Isaiah 42:1 Behold my Servant, Whom I uphold; Mine elect, in whom my Soul delighteth: He shall bring forth judgement to the gentiles. verse 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause His voice to be heard in the Street.
verse 3 A bruised reed shall He not break and the smoking flax shall He not quench: He shall bring forth judgement unto truth.
verse 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the gentles.
This is exactly what the disciples and John the Baptist were hoping for! That Jesus would “bring justice to the nations”. He didn't.John wanted to know why? He even sent his servants to ask Jesus if he was indeed the One or should they expect another? John knew that something didn't add up. I think he was on to something. He disappeared shortly after his inquisition.
Quote Is. 53: 5 But He was wounded for our transgression, He was bruised for our iniquities : Thee chastisement of our Peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.
This passage has always bothered me a little bit. In verse 12 it says, “Therefore I will give him a portion among the great and he will divide the spoils with the strong….” But is that what really happend to Jesus? We are told that God “highly exhaulted him” and he is currently God's right-hand man. That's a bit of a different picture than we are given here. I'm not saying this is not referring to the coming Christ, just that it's a bit odd.Quote Psalm 69:21 They gave Me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave Me vinegar to drink.
This verse is also troubling because if you are willing to extend the above verse to Jesus, then you must also attribute verse 5 to Jesus which says, “You know my folly, O God; my guilt is not hidden from you. Guilt? Jesus is guilty? How can a sinless man filled to all fulness of God's spirit be guilty? Doesn't add up to me?Quote Psalm 91:12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, least thou dash thy feet against a stone.
If you read this verse in context you may s
ee that the “They” is referring to angels. Unless you believe Jesus is an angel, I do not see Jesus present here in this passage.Quote Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave My soul in Hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy one to see corruption.
Yes, God's holy One will not see corruption. But it does not tell us that this One referred to is Jesus, nor does it tell us that it is the promised Messiah.Quote I see Jesus very much so in the Old Testament scriptures.
I know you do. But I do not. These verses are vague and you may certainly read Jesus into them if you wish, but it is not clear that we are supposed to do that.I know that many may think I am only pointing out the negative, but I'm really only pointing out the obvious. I want to believe these passages are speaking of Jesus, too. But are they? It doesn't seem that they are.
Thanks, sis. I appreciate your time and effort to type all these verses out for me. I remember hearing these verses from a very small child and I remember that they were always attributed to Jesus. But a critical look seems to suggest that it may or may not be referring to Jesus. In other words, it's not clear.
Quote (seek and you will find @ Feb. 17 2008,17:38) If it is not clear to you then maybe faith odd to come in. Amen End of Story for me.
Yes……..have faith. This is the end of the story for so many.You give me verses and want to know what I think. I share what I think and then I am given, “Have faith.” But if I may press a little further (knowing patience runs thin for people who are searching and questioning), when I give you my thoughts on these verses – do they not make sense? Can you also see what I am seeing? Or do you just choose to not see it? I'm curious….
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 17 2008,17:44) Quote (seek and you will find @ Feb. 17 2008,17:38) If it is not clear to you then maybe faith odd to come in. Amen End of Story for me.
Yes……..have faith. This is the end of the story for so many.You give me verses and want to know what I think. I share what I think and then I am given, “Have faith.” But if I may press a little further (knowing patience runs thin for people who are searching and questioning), when I give you my thoughts on these verses – do they not make sense? Can you also see what I am seeing? Or do you just choose to not see it? I'm curious….
No Mandy they do not make sense to me, I see Jesus in those verses of Scriptures that my Husband and I have given to you. You say like so many it is the end of the story, why Oh why do you not take their advice. Why does it make so much difference to you that everything has to be exactly lined up for you, that I just don't understand. I know Jesus as my personal Savior and I talk to Him and I walk with Him. And I am not kidding here either.Peace and Love Irene
Quote No Mandy they do not make sense to me, I see Jesus in those verses of Scriptures that my Husband and I have given to you.
I understand this response. But I ask you again, when we look at passages like Psalms 69 – are you willing to attribute all of the Psalms to Jesus or just the parts that sound like the Jesus we want to see there?Is Jesus guilty like the Psalm says he is?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 17 2008,17:26) OK, some thoughts on your post: Quote But why does it matter so much that it has to be written in the O.T. too.
It matters because there should be a connection between the original plan and it's outcome. The OT tells us of the original plan and what to expect is coming…. How else are we to recognize what is coming?Quote As far as Jesus preexisting is concerned, who was there with God when He created men. It says ” Let us make men in Our Image.”
So who was He talking about?
With all due respect, I knew you would quote this verse; everyone does when they are trying to prove Jesus with God in the beginning. The truth of the matter is, there are many ways to interpret this verse and arranging Jesus there with God is only one of them. Look at your NIV Study Bible, for instance, it has an entirely different opinion and it's very interesting. This verse does not prove that Jesus is the “us” that God was referring to – it's only one of the options – it's the option you and your husband prefer, but many others do not Because of this I cannot say for certain that it speaks of Jesus.Quote Not only that when you hear God speaking it is Jesus. God is only a title.
Again, with all due respect, this is a huge stretch for me. When God speaks in the OT he is very clear that it is him alone speaking and that there are no others. He is the only God. I believe him. Plus, there is no mention of Jesus or *another* that is also him. You will be hardpressed to prove this point in scripture, I'm afraid.Quote Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold a Virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
Jesus wasn't named Immanuel.Quote Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold a Virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
This “sign” of the virgin birth and promised son was for Ahaz. But wait, Mary doesn't give birth until the NT…….how could this serve as a sign for Ahaz? Unless of course Isaiah was referring to anothe virgin…..Quote Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child to us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: And the government shall upon His shoulders: And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
When Jesus was “given”, when he was born, the government was not upon his shoulders. Nor was he called “Wonderful” or anything of the sort. He was called insane and demon possessed! And he certainly didn't bring peace. So I wonder, since this passage does not speak of a “second giving” of this son – how can we place Jesus and what he accomplished within this description truthfully?Quote Isaiah 11:1 ” And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of His roots.” verse 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, the spirit of Wisdom and understanding, the spirit of Counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
Yes, it's comforting to quote these verses and attribute them to our dear Lord. However, if you keep reading on you will see that this stem of Jesse will also cause the wolf to live with the lamb. It doesn't say that it will take two trips to accomplish this.It simply says that when this root of Jesse appears – thus and so will happen. Peace will come. It will be a done deal. This didn't happen when Jesus appeared. And there is not talk of a second appearance in this passage. Hmmmm, next!
Quote Isaiah 42:1 Behold my Servant, Whom I uphold; Mine elect, in whom my Soul delighteth: He shall bring forth judgement to the gentiles. verse 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause His voice to be heard in the Street.
verse 3 A bruised reed shall He not break and the smoking flax shall He not quench: He shall bring forth judgement unto truth.
verse 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the gentles.
This is exactly what the disciples and John the Baptist were hoping for! That Jesus would “bring justice to the nations”. He didn't.John wanted to know why? He even sent his servants to ask Jesus if he was indeed the One or should they expect another? John knew that something didn't add up. I think he was on to something. He disappeared shortly after his inquisition.
Quote Is. 53: 5 But He was wounded for our transgression, He was bruised for our iniquities : Thee chastisement of our Peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.
This passage has always bothered me a little bit. In verse 12 it says, “Therefore I will give him a portion among the great and he will divide the spoils with the strong….” But is that what really happend to Jesus? We are told that God “highly exhaulted him” and he is currently God's right-hand man. That's a bit of a different picture than we are given here. I'm not saying this is not referring to the coming Christ, just that it's a bit odd.Quote Psalm 69:21 They gave Me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave Me vinegar to drink.
This verse is also troubling because if you are willing to extend the above verse to Jesus, then you must also attribute verse 5 to Jesus which says, “You know my folly, O God; my guilt is not hidden from you. Guilt? Jesus is guilty? How can a sinless man filled to all fulness of God's spirit be guilty? Doesn't add up to me?Quote Psalm 91:12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, least thou dash thy feet against a stone.
If you read this verse in context you may see that the “They” is referring to angels. Unless you believe Jesus is an angel, I do not see Jesus present here in this passage.Quote Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave My soul in Hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy one to see corruption.
Yes, God's holy One will not see corruption. But it does not tell us that this One referred to is Jesus, nor does it tell us that it is the promised Messiah.Quote I see Jesus very much so in the Old Testament scriptures.
I know you do. But I do not. These verses are vague and you may certainly read Jesus into them if you wish, but it is not clear that we are supposed to do that.I know that many may think I am only pointing out the negative, but I'm really only pointing out the obvious. I want to believe these passages are speaking of Jesus, too. But are they? It doesn't seem that they are.
Thanks, sis. I appreciate your time and effort to type all these verses out for me. I remember hearing these verses from a very small child and I remember that they were always attributed to Jesus. But a critical look seems to suggest that it may or may not be referring to Jesus. In other words, it's not clear.
Dear not3,
You have been distracted from our given task of offering a sacrifice of praise to our Father God into needing to know everything now.The serpent used such things to distract Eve from simple obedience.
It is only making you doubt and worry. Looking back was not good for Lot's wife and not much good for us either. We are rather to look ahead to the promises. It is hard to walk forward when our eyes are looking back and it is very likely to make us stumble.
Worry about nothing but pray about everything.
Pray with the mind and pray in the Spirit.
Phil3
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phil4
6Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.Jude
20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,Seek wisdom
Seek peace.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 17 2008,19:05) Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 17 2008,17:26) OK, some thoughts on your post: Quote But why does it matter so much that it has to be written in the O.T. too.
It matters because there should be a connection between the original plan and it's outcome. The OT tells us of the original plan and what to expect is coming…. How else are we to recognize what is coming?Quote As far as Jesus preexisting is concerned, who was there with God when He created men. It says ” Let us make men in Our Image.”
So who was He talking about?
With all due respect, I knew you would quote this verse; everyone does when they are trying to prove Jesus with God in the beginning. The truth of the matter is, there are many ways to interpret this verse and arranging Jesus there with God is only one of them. Look at your NIV Study Bible, for instance, it has an entirely different opinion and it's very interesting. This verse does not prove that Jesus is the “us” that God was referring to – it's only one of the options – it's the option you and your husband prefer, but many others do not Because of this I cannot say for certain that it speaks of Jesus.Quote Not only that when you hear God speaking it is Jesus. God is only a title.
Again, with all due respect, this is a huge stretch for me. When God speaks in the OT he is very clear that it is him alone speaking and that there are no others. He is the only God. I believe him. Plus, there is no mention of Jesus or *another* that is also him. You will be hardpressed to prove this point in scripture, I'm afraid.Quote Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold a Virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
Jesus wasn't named Immanuel.Quote Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold a Virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
This “sign” of the virgin birth and promised son was for Ahaz. But wait, Mary doesn't give birth until the NT…….how could this serve as a sign for Ahaz? Unless of course Isaiah was referring to anothe virgin…..Quote Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child to us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: And the government shall upon His shoulders: And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
When Jesus was “given”, when he was born, the government was not upon his shoulders. Nor was he called “Wonderful” or anything of the sort. He was called insane and demon possessed! And he certainly didn't bring peace. So I wonder, since this passage does not speak of a “second giving” of this son – how can we place Jesus and what he accomplished within this description truthfully?Quote Isaiah 11:1 ” And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of His roots.” verse 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, the spirit of Wisdom and understanding, the spirit of Counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
Yes, it's comforting to quote these verses and attribute them to our dear Lord. However, if you keep reading on you will see that this stem of Jesse will also cause the wolf to live with the lamb. It doesn't say that it will take two trips to accomplish this.It simply says that when this root of Jesse appears – thus and so will happen. Peace will come. It will be a done deal. This didn't happen when Jesus appeared. And there is not talk of a second appearance in this passage. Hmmmm, next!
Quote Isaiah 42:1 Behold my Servant, Whom I uphold; Mine elect, in whom my Soul delighteth: He shall bring forth judgement to the gentiles. verse 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause His voice to be heard in the Street.
verse 3 A bruised reed shall He not break and the smoking flax shall He not quench: He shall bring forth judgement unto truth.
verse 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the gentles.
This is exactly what the disciples and John the Baptist were hoping for! That Jesus would “bring justice to the nations”. He didn't.John wanted to know why? He even sent his servants to ask Jesus if he was indeed the One or should they expect another? John knew that something didn't add up. I think he was on to something. He disappeared shortly after his inquisition.
Quote Is. 53: 5 But He was wounded for our transgression, He was bruised for our iniquities : Thee chastisement of our Peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.
This passage has always bothered me a little bit. In verse 12 it says, “Therefore I will give him a portion among the great and he will divide the spoils with the strong….” But is that what really happend to Jesus? We are told that God “highly exhaulted him” and he is currently God's right-hand man. That's a bit of a different picture than we are given here. I'm not saying this is not referring to the coming Christ, just that it's a bit odd.Quote Psalm 69:21 They gave Me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave Me vinegar to drink.
This verse is also troubling because if you are willing to extend the above verse to Jesus, then you must also attribute verse 5 to Jesus which says, “You know my folly, O God; my guilt is not hidden from you. Guilt
? Jesus is guilty? How can a sinless man filled to all fulness of God's spirit be guilty? Doesn't add up to me?Quote Psalm 91:12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, least thou dash thy feet against a stone.
If you read this verse in context you may see that the “They” is referring to angels. Unless you believe Jesus is an angel, I do not see Jesus present here in this passage.Quote Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave My soul in Hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy one to see corruption.
Yes, God's holy One will not see corruption. But it does not tell us that this One referred to is Jesus, nor does it tell us that it is the promised Messiah.Quote I see Jesus very much so in the Old Testament scriptures.
I know you do. But I do not. These verses are vague and you may certainly read Jesus into them if you wish, but it is not clear that we are supposed to do that.I know that many may think I am only pointing out the negative, but I'm really only pointing out the obvious. I want to believe these passages are speaking of Jesus, too. But are they? It doesn't seem that they are.
Thanks, sis. I appreciate your time and effort to type all these verses out for me. I remember hearing these verses from a very small child and I remember that they were always attributed to Jesus. But a critical look seems to suggest that it may or may not be referring to Jesus. In other words, it's not clear.
Dear not3,
You have been distracted from our given task of offering a sacrifice of praise to our Father God into needing to know everything now.The serpent used such things to distract Eve from simple obedience.
It is only making you doubt and worry. Looking back was not good for Lot's wife and not much good for us either. We are rather to look ahead to the promises. It is hard to walk forward when our eyes are looking back and it is very likely to make us stumble.
Worry about nothing but pray about everything.
Pray with the mind and pray in the Spirit.
Phil3
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phil4
6Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.Jude
20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,Seek wisdom
Seek peace.
Nick Very good advice and all I want to add isSeek Love cause God is Love.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 17 2008,02:05) Dear not3,
You have been distracted from our given task of offering a sacrifice of praise to our Father God into needing to know everything now.
That is not an answer she will appreciate — you are telling her to ignore the obvious discrepancies and just “have faith”. I see this “advice” given way too often to people who question and it is not reassuring. About as reassuring as telling a grieving widow “everything will be alright”.Quote The serpent used such things to distract Eve from simple obedience.
Eve was ignorant and you seem to want others to pretend ignorance for the sake of just believing in something that has many holes in it.Quote It is only making you doubt and worry. Looking back was not good for Lot's wife and not much good for us either. We are rather to look ahead to the promises. It is hard to walk forward when our eyes are looking back and it is very likely to make us stumble.
Again, the words of someone who wants to gloss over the obvious discrepancies. It does nothing to address the real issues. You are trying to cover a gaping wound with a band-aid.Quote Worry about nothing but pray about everything.
Questioning things that do not add up is not worrying. If someone robs your house, would you accept the police just coming by and saying “just pray” while they ignore the crime?Quote Pray with the mind and pray in the Spirit. Phil3
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phil4
6Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.Jude
20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,Seek wisdom
Seek peace.
Wisdom is developed. Wisdom does not come from ignoring. You are advising that she ignore the discrepancies and that is poor advice IMHO.Quote (seek and you will find @ Feb. 17 2008,19:43) Nick Very good advice and all I want to add is Seek Love cause God is Love.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Of course you believe this is good advice. However you are chimming in with Nick because you, yourself, have nothing of solid value to offer to my objections.Have faith and everything will be alright. Have faith when passages in the bible don't add up. Have faith when you cannot answer someone straight. Have faith and yes, Amen to someone who appears to give an answer that you agree with. BUT, have you shown yourself approved, Irene? Are YOU able to give an answer for what you believe? That is, other than saying, “I believe it and end of story, Amen.”
You list the verse, that is good. But when the verses and your interpretation of them is challenged, you appear impotent and rely only on faith. Why? Are you not able to honestly look at the scriptures and see there might be a problem with your view of them, OR that it is possibly to view them an alternative way? Goodness, even the contributor's to the NIV Study Bible disagree with some of your views! Are they wrong? If so, why? Maybe they, too, should just have faith that your way is correct?
Telling someone to have faith and that you believe the scriptures regardless of their valid questions of the same said scriptures is not giving an answer for what you believe. It is merely putting your head in the sand and ignoring the obvious because you choose to.
I don't mean to be this harsh, really I don't. But I am frustrated with those who spout of scriptures and demand explainations of them but then remain mute when challenged to explain the problems with their views. It's like saying, “I'm right and you are wrong. End of story.” But why? Why am I wrong? Because I don't have enough faith that you are right?
Hi Nick,
First of all let me say that I am touched that you began your post with, “Dear Not3,….”. I know that you genuinely care about my walk with the LORD, and you have been an encouragement to me on many occassions.
Quote You have been distracted from our given task of offering a sacrifice of praise to our Father God into needing to know everything now.
It would appear so, but your judgement of me is incorrect. My worship of God has only increased during this time of wonder and seeking. The fact that I want to know some things that appear unknowable only means that I am earnestly seeking Him out. He is pleased with this in me! I'll even be rewarded for it.
Quote The serpent used such things to distract Eve from simple obedience.
Where am I being disobedient? And what are the “things” that you think may be distracting me? Perhaps my critical study of the bible and it's demands? But I critically study any real estate contract I sign; as well whenever we buy a car, I read all the fine print of the deal that I am entering into. Why should I not want to know the details of my ultimate salvation? Why should I not question when I see errors and contradictions in the explainations of the One whom I have grown to love and respect? If my knowledge be correct of this One, shouldn't I seek to have the most accurate knowledge?Is this my disobedience? Finding problems with the answers I've been given? But I tell you, I wouldn't sign a mortgage statement if there were errors in the agreement, nor would I purchase a car if the contract didn't spell out my responsibilities. Why should my treatment of the bible and my religion be any different? Further, why shouldn't it hold-up under such scrutinty as does my mortgage agreements?
Quote It is hard to walk forward when our eyes are looking back and it is very likely to make us stumble.
It's also hard to walk forward when the blind are leading the blind. It's like you are telling me, “Mandy keep walking straight ahead.” And I say, “But Nick, what is straight ahead?” And you say, “I don't know exactly. There may be a bridge, but there may not be. Just have faith and keep walking.”Well, OK, but I prefer to ask around and see if there is a bridge before I keep walking straight ahead. Does this make sense?
Quote Worry about nothing but pray about everything.
What happened to working out our salvation with fear and trembling?I am more worried for those who question nothing and hope for the bridge that isn't there…..when they arrive at the chasm in the road, they continue to walk having faith that their feet will stay on solid ground. But what really happens is they fall into a pit. Meanwhile asking each person who falls in to help them out. While everyone remains blind, faith will not save anyone from falling into the pit.
This “pit”, in my opinion is the ignoring the obvious.
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 17 2008,20:55) That is not an answer she will appreciate
And you would be correct, Kejonn.I don't appreciate answers that seem more like consolations. I would rather that answers be based on proving scripture. But because some scriptures cannot be proven, we are told to have faith.
Having faith is good. We cannot please God without it. However I don't believe “faith” was supposed to be used as a cop-out when you cannot rationalize a writing or prophesy. I think God wants us to use our reason and logic. I dare say that God is happier with those of us who question and want to know the nitty-gritty than he is with those who remain placid and never ask, “Why?”.
However, that being said, I DO appreciate the caring and effort this brother puts forward in trying to answer my posts.
Hi,
Knowledge by itself is a snare.
You will never have all knowledge here where things can only be seen dimly.Hi Not3,
The most important faith decisions faced in life require a child's minimum of knowledge and a child's huge faith.
Satan loves to suggest that clever people can see through the simplicity and he can offer deeper understandings.
Gnosticism grew very early in the church and flowered as the trinity theory dividing it from Christ in such a way.1 Corinthians 8:1
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 17 2008,18:25) Quote No Mandy they do not make sense to me, I see Jesus in those verses of Scriptures that my Husband and I have given to you.
I understand this response. But I ask you again, when we look at passages like Psalms 69 – are you willing to attribute all of the Psalms to Jesus or just the parts that sound like the Jesus we want to see there?Is Jesus guilty like the Psalm says he is?
No Psalm is from David, He is speaking to God, but we also know that David was a prophet and within His Psalm are scriptures prophesying about Jesus.
Verse 21 is one of those scriptures because when you look at the rest of the chapter that scripture has nothing to do with David.
What do you mean about that Jesus is guilty, guilty of what?Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 18 2008,01:08) Quote (seek and you will find @ Feb. 17 2008,19:43) Nick Very good advice and all I want to add is Seek Love cause God is Love.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Of course you believe this is good advice. However you are chimming in with Nick because you, yourself, have nothing of solid value to offer to my objections.Have faith and everything will be alright. Have faith when passages in the bible don't add up. Have faith when you cannot answer someone straight. Have faith and yes, Amen to someone who appears to give an answer that you agree with. BUT, have you shown yourself approved, Irene? Are YOU able to give an answer for what you believe? That is, other than saying, “I believe it and end of story, Amen.”
You list the verse, that is good. But when the verses and your interpretation of them is challenged, you appear impotent and rely only on faith. Why? Are you not able to honestly look at the scriptures and see there might be a problem with your view of them, OR that it is possibly to view them an alternative way? Goodness, even the contributor's to the NIV Study Bible disagree with some of your views! Are they wrong? If so, why? Maybe they, too, should just have faith that your way is correct?
Telling someone to have faith and that you believe the scriptures regardless of their valid questions of the same said scriptures is not giving an answer for what you believe. It is merely putting your head in the sand and ignoring the obvious because you choose to.
I don't mean to be this harsh, really I don't. But I am frustrated with those who spout of scriptures and demand explainations of them but then remain mute when challenged to explain the problems with their views. It's like saying, “I'm right and you are wrong. End of story.” But why? Why am I wrong? Because I don't have enough faith that you are right?
First thank you for the compliment, i needed that. Second you don't know everything about me either which I do not have to explain to you either. I waited to answer you because I wanted to ask my Husband for advice. In the meantime Nick posted and all I did there is agree with advice. You have my answer now.
Peace and Love IreneP.S. I do not think that anybody should think that they have all of God's Truth and be satisfied with that. I don't believe that. I am still learning, I don't know it all, I never thought that I did. Maybe I come across that way, for that maybe the advice of my Husband might have to do with. Most of the time when I seek His advice, it is mostly His respond that I write down.
I am no teacher and have never implied that. On the contrary I came on here to fellowship. It has gotten me into a lot of trouble, that at times I really don't care for. But I am also not a person who would just leave. Believe me I have felt like it a lot this past week.Hi KJ,
You say
“Wisdom is developed. “Wisdom is a gift from God.
“Get wisdom”.
Human wisdom does comes from accumulated knowledge.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 17 2008,13:44) Hi KJ,
You say
“Wisdom is developed. “Wisdom is a gift from God.
“Get wisdom”.
Human wisdom does comes from accumulated knowledge.
Really? Give me an example of a 10 year old Christian with great wisdom.Hi KJ,
As soon as you show me one who has prayed for it-like Christ would have.Exodus 28:3
“You shall speak to all the skillful persons whom I have endowed with the spirit of wisdom, that they make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister as priest to Me.Exodus 31:3
“I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship,Exodus 35:31
“And He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding and in knowledge and in all craftsmanship;Deuteronomy 34:9
Now Joshua the son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands on him; and the sons of Israel listened to him and did as the LORD had commanded Moses.1 Kings 4:29
Now God gave Solomon wisdom and very great discernment and breadth of mind, like the sand that is on the seashore.1 Kings 5:12
The LORD gave wisdom to Solomon, just as He promised him; and there was peace between Hiram and Solomon, and the two of them made a covenant.Proverbs 2:6
For the LORD gives wisdom;From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.Proverbs 3:21
My son, let them not vanish from your sight;Keep sound wisdom and discretion,Proverbs 4:5
Acquire wisdom! Acquire understanding!Do not forget nor turn away from the words of my mouth.Proverbs 4:7
” The beginning of wisdom is: Acquire wisdom;And with all your acquiring, get understanding.1 Corinthians 2:5
so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.1 Corinthians 2:6
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;1 Corinthians 12:8
For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;James 1:5
But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
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