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OK, Is1:18. Regarding capital punishment you have made your biblical case very well. From your answers, we can take it that you are in favour of the death penalty for adulterers (Leviticus 20:10), animals (Exodus 21:28) , beastiality (Exodus 22:19 , Leviticus 20:15 , Leviticus 20:16), blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16), breaking the sabbath (Exodus 31:14, Exodus 31:15 , Exodus 35:2), disobedient children (Exodus 21:17), (Leviticus 20:9), homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), incest (Leviticus 20:11 , Leviticus 20:12 , Leviticus 20:14), murder (Genesis 9:6), rape victims who don't cry out loudly enough (Deuteronomy 22:23-24), stealing slaves (Exodus 21:16), not being a virgin on the night of the wedding (Deuteronomy 22:13-22), witches (Exodus 22:18) and worshipping another god (Exodus 22:20).
Good on you. I think there are not enough rape victims, disobedient children and Hindus being judicially slaughtered. My friends who are gay are pleasant, peaceful and thoughful people but I guess you are right, electrocution is too good for them.
Stuart
Hi Is 1:18
Quote That’s an interesting assertion, “the golden rule is a universal principle of collective human cultures”. How do you know this? Many, many cultures throughout human history are undocumented.
That is true, but do we know of a culture that has not? Maybe not in the killing states of the US, where overwhelmingly it is black people with incompetent representation who are condmened to death, too often for crimes of which they are innocent. The accused are not treated in the way the other members of that judicial system would have themselves treated if the situation was reversed. Nevertheless, to claim that christians have invented the golden rule is disingenuous.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocityQuote Statistics tell us that 100% of murderers that are put to death for their crime don’t go on to reoffend in the same manner. The recidivism rate is ZERO. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for incarceration, because prison hardly ever changes a person’s nature. It cannot be argued that the preservation of a recidivistic offender’s life is in the best interest of our species. Cancerous growths should be excised from the body.
Clearly there is some evolutionary advantage in having people believe this (or more likely having the propensity to believe this kind of thing). No statistic says what you claim, by the way, because there is no survey of whether this is true or not, unless you do not believe there is an afterlife with the possibility of the departed somehow influencing living humans. The more interesting statistic is that the death penalty has no effect as a deterrent. Given how secure prisons are as a way of removing dangerous individuals, it is either the lack of wanting to pay for the hope of reform of a murderer, or the need for vengeance. If the latter, then why call yourself a follower of Jesus?Quote Programmed huh? That implies a programmer. Who would that be Stu?
Natual selection, like I said.Quote The simple cell is far more complex than a jumbo jet. It is packed with automated factories and assembly plants with processing units connected to a central memory bank. It contains hundreds of thousands of specific protein molecules, each composed of over 3000 parts in three-dimensional configurations. DNA is by far the best information storage and retrieval system known, it comprises about 4000 books worth of information that is read and obeyed by the cell. A ‘specifically complex’ error-correcting digital code that has self-diagnostic, self-repairing and self-reproducing capabilities!
True.Quote It’s little wonder that evolutionary scientists who truly understand the intricate nuances of the genome have resorted to espousing bizarre theories to explain how this clearly designed information-bearing structure arose in the absence of a master designer. Francis Crick, the co-discoverer of DNA, was a proponent of a theory claming extra-terrestrial seeded the earth with life by sending rockets!! Of course this begs the question: where did the extra-terrestrials come from? Who made them?
Well he is probably wrong. You can’t disprove it, but you can’t find evidence for it. It is exactly the same as the argument for divine creation.Quote I also think it's curious that contemporary Biologists (specifically evolutionary biologists) have the audacity to assume that the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply to their field. The second law of thermodynamics dictates that things move from a state of order to disorder? Increasing entropy would lead to de-volution, not evolution. Just one of it's many flaws….
Sorry, the second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems. If what you say were true then the first ‘created’ human would not have lasted very long, and we would not be here.Quote Ahh relativism there you are, I was wondering when you might turn up. So what you are saying here Stu is that rightness and wrongness are determined by the individual. What is right for one may not be right for another. There is no absolute right or wrong. That being the case, then you have no grounds to say that YHWH was wrong to kill, because maybe for God killing is okay. By appealing to relativism you have undermined your whole argument. With relativism there is no real right or wrong, only subjective opinion, which amounts to nothing really.
Rightness and wrongness are obviously determined by the individual, but it is a democratoc ‘zeitgeist’ process and ends up codified in cultural taboos and laws of the land. Do we agree that slavery is wrong? At what stage did that stop being an almost universally accepted practice? Was it ‘right’ once and is it ‘wrong’ now? You say that god has the ‘right’ to kill, and I say that it is absolutely wrong that anyone commit genocide. There is no difference between your absolutist claims and my claim that I can say what is right and wrong. I think you really have it wrong with the old apologist ‘relativism’ canard, which is a ridiculous and ignorant argument.Stu: OK, I know a particular criminal may have previously caused others greater distress but I can’t see how the answer to one killing is more killing.
Quote Apart from its excellent deterrent nature, it completely solves the recidivism dilemma. It’s also much cheaper than other solutions, exacting a lesser drag on the economy of a nation. It’s got a lot going for it Stu. I can’t see why you don’t see this….
There is no deterrent effect. This is very well demonstrated, and is a supporting reason why most countries have abolished the death penalty. If it doesn’t work as a deterrent, then it is either done for convenience or revenge, both of which are very short-sighted and brutal views of human life. The US has an extraordinarily high rate of homicide compared to other western democracies. The US has the death penalty, also very rare amongst western countries. I think the link is that people live in constant fear, an emotion that American politicians have learned to exploit and maintain, and a symptom of that ingrained permanent state of mind is the need to put criminals to death. The US is also the closest thing we have to a christian theocracy and people like you justify it with their bibles
, so maintaining medieval brutality (in my opinion, and that of most of the rest of the Western world).One wrongful conviction of an innocent person makes it state-sponsored murder, which is against the commandments. Since it is a democratically decided killing, it is you breaking that commandment (unless, I suppose you protest against it, which I imagine you haven’t).
I think supporters of judicial killing should reflect on the horror of the tiny chance of their own wrongful conviction, the nature of most murders, which are not done in cold blood but in the blinding passion of the moment and thus calls for more understanding of what provokes people and how homicide could be prevented, not more killing.
I accept that in its early history the states may have been limited in their options for protecting the population from psychopathic killers but that is no longer true.There is a defense of insanity. Why do we not classify crimes of passion as done in temporary insanity? Where do you draw the line?
Stu: If the state says killing is wrong and brings a charge of murder against an accused, a death sentence would only show that killing is a way of solving a problem, or hypocritically that killing is right
Quote No, most sound thinking people can draw the distinction between the legally-justified killing of a criminal and the unjustified murder of someone. Using your logic you could also argue that the IRD taking money in the form of tax vindicates burglary! There is clearly a difference between legally acquiring a person’s money and stealing it. .
Well I guess I am saying that there is hypocrisy in saying that a private person who has had grief from someone and does away with that person by murder is any worse than an entire population collectively deciding they have had grief from this person and then doing away with that person by legalised murder. Actually we all volunteer to pay tax. If that were not true by now we would have collectively voted for governments that did not levy them (although I agree that in itself is a paradox). We do not volunteer for burglary.Quote What is more barbaric; not executing a compulsive murderer and allowing him to go on to murder many upon being released from prison (as has happened many times), or ending his life and thereby saving many more? To my mind the Judge that does not order his execution is complicit in any murders he may commit after his release.
Why can that judge simply not allow his release from prison? No need for any further barbarism on anyone’s part. Also, how can a psychopath be called culpable anyway?Stu: Execution is the most premeditated form of killing and is not justice for a person who has killed in a rage, when he was not in control of his reptillian brain.
Quote If you were the parent of a child who was the recipient of an enraged offender’s murderous act you would feel differently. You would not be so inclined to rationalize it the way you have, i.e. it was just his reptilian brain, he really couldn’t help it…you would be baying for his blood. And hey, maybe if you social conditioning and/or genetic makeup had been dissimilar you would feel differently, right? Because you hold to relativism you cannot rightly make any absolutist moral statements. Your relativism will always betray you, invalidating every absolutist moral assertion you make…..
No I am sure I would be uncontrollably livid and in a state of mind to take revenge. That does not mean I would be right to act on those feelings. It is absolutely wrong to kill another person for any reason other than self-defense in a situation of immediate danger. What gives you the right to declare my absolute claim invalid?Stu: No excuses for the criminal, but execution is not an intelligent and rational answer to the question of why people go haywire. Might there be ways of fixing these people rather than doing away with them?
Quote If they go haywire once and kill someone, they are likely to repeat that the next time something sets them off. It’s a very intelligent solution to execute them, that way the likelihood that they would reoffend is negated.
What statistics support what you claim? I take it you have done and published all the research, you know everything about psychology and brain structure and are thus qualified to state that there is no point in trying to help these people.Stu: So much for forgiveness!
Quote Forgive them, then execute them or perhaps the other way around. Either way, they should be forgiven lest you imprison yourself with your own bitterness, and they should be put to death.
Forgive them then execute them!? Doesn’t one rather negate the other?
So forgiveness to you is not the same as the forgiveness of Jesus. Not even true forgiveness once, let alone 77 times.Stuart
Hi Stu,
I agree that vengeance is best left to God for believers.
Deuteronomy 32:35
To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 19 2008,19:39) Hi Stu,
I agree that vengeance is best left to God for believers.
Deuteronomy 32:35
To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
I should have done as you did and find scripture for Is 1:18, not reason.Do you agree it is religion (christianity of whatever kind, perhaps not your kind) that causes the US to maintain the death penalty despite the trend against it across the rest of the world?
Stuart
Hi Stu,
The US is strongly influenced by false religion.
Calvanistic themes predominate.
It was built by guns,
not love.Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 19 2008,16:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2008,04:43) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,18:56) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 12 2008,17:55) “….the essence of truth.” Interesting. You say the bible is truth yet…….all these things that have goofed it up. Hmmm See, I just can't buy that for a dollar anymore. The reason is that if the bible is truth AND inspired of God (that's a a biggie), then how come the mess-up's? And why didn't God allow his Word to be more pure so that we could find the absolute truth? As it is, we have to guess at it. Or as you say, study all the possiblities for running-a-muck and try to preserve the essence of the absolute truth that is hidden there. Ya, I get it now.
This might help Mandy.This is how I see it:
The bible is NOT TRUTH!
Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life.
The 10 commandments are NOT the PURE LAW.
The Father's spirit is the PURE LAW and he is LOVE.
The bible is a compilation of men's testamonies about their experiences both divine and mundane. They are glimpses of what they saw though looking through a glass darkly.
And sadly there errors and even forgeries. Entire epistles forged.
Scripture is just information. It is not THE TRUTH or THE LAW.
2 Timothy 3:16 is supposedly an epistle written by Paul. However, the pastorals are the most contested books in the bible. They were written much to late to be Paul's. They are forgeries by the early proto-catholic church as they tried to find ways to bring solidarity and structure to their new faith.
2 Timothy 3:16
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
So is scripture useful? Yes. But so is science, history and all the other fields of study.
SOLI am doubled over laughing..
First you say…
Quote
The bible is NOT TRUTH!Then you say…
Quote
Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life.Jn 14:6
It is sad that you doubled over laughing when I called Jesus THE TRUTH and you are a christian.The gospel of John is not the only source that says Jesus is the truth. I assume you thought it was funny because I used the bible to call Jesus the truth. Well it is not just the catholic canon that says this.
I am not saying that the catholic canon does not hold any truth I am saying that IT by itself is not truth.
No two new testament texts are exactly the same out of thousands of copies.
We have forgeries in the scripture.
If you could only answer with one word what would you say truth was as a Christian?
I would say Jesus.
He is the way the truth and the life. Christ in you not the bible. Thousands of christians lived and died without every owning one. The bible wasn't settled for hundreds of years.
Christians had truth before they ever had written stories telling about the man they called “the truth”.
Without Christ the bible turns into many bad things.
Southern slaves for example.
SOLWow!
Arent we touchy!
I think it is hillarious that from one side of your tongue you say the scriptures are corrupt and then out of the other quote John 14:6.
Let me repeat, you say…
Quote
The bible is NOT TRUTH!Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life.
You dont think that deserves a chuckle?
Come on SOL, you make these constant attacks on the written scriptures but only give us your opinions without any real proof the scritpures are false.
You measure what you think is scripture by your own theology.
You say…
Quote
The reason is that if the bible is truth AND inspired of God (that's a a biggie), then how come the mess-up's?The mess ups are in your own mind!
Show me once where Yeshua condemned Moses or the Prophets or the Hebrew scriptures!
Or maybe you can show me where his words disagrees with the writings of his followers that came later.
You say…
Quote And why didn't God allow his Word to be more pure so that we could find the absolute truth?
Like the scriptures say… Yeshua is “Truth” and we have the Spirit of truth that leads us into all truth, and for those with ears to hear know that neither Yeshua nor the Holy Spirit condemns the written scriptures.You say…
Quote
It is sad that you doubled over laughing when I called Jesus THE TRUTH and you are a christian.No it is sad that you being a “Loving Christian” insinuates that I was laughing at you calling Jesus the truth!
You said…
Quote
The gospel of John is not the only source that says Jesus is the truth.But the Gospel of John is the only source that says…”Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life.”.
You said…
Quote
I assume you thought it was funny because I used the bible to call Jesus the truth.No. Im not laughing at you calling Jesus the Truth. I am laughing at you saying the scriptures are not true
and then quoting from them. Sorry if that offends you. But you have to admit it does deserve a chuckle seeing how you esteem the written scriptures!You say…
Quote
Well it is not just the catholic canon that says this.Well again, it is the only source I know of that says this…”Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life.”
You say…
Quote
I am not saying that the catholic canon does not hold any truth I am saying that IT by itself is not truth.No two new testament texts are exactly the same out of thousands of copies.
Problem you have with this statement is the differences are small and and have some ambiguity, but nothing that affects the whole or effects major doctrine, and surely does not deserve such disrespect and degradation as this…
Quote “The bible is NOT TRUTH! The 10 commandments are NOT the PURE LAW.“
Those were your words arent they?
Tell me SOL, how do you expect any one to accept or take seriously any quote that you make from the scriptures, if they know that you hold the scriptures in contempt?
You say…
Quote
We have forgeries in the scripture.Your opinion! All the major translations overwhelmingly agree with each other with minor variations.
You say…
Quote
If you could only answer with one word what would you say truth was as a Christian?I would say Jesus.
True! However would you not say when the “Truth” speaks that that is also truth.
John 14:6 is Yeshuas words and is written. That is truth right?
Why do you think Yeshua quoted to satan in the wilderness “written scriptures” and said “It is written”?
Was it because he believed the written scritpures were the lying tongue of the scribes?
You say…
Quote
He is the way the truth and the life. Christ in you not the bible. Thousands of christians lived and died without every owning one. The bible wasn't settled for hundreds of years.
The cannon wasnt settled for hundreds of years, however the Hebrew scriptures were settled long before then and in fact 200 Years before Christ the Septuagent was in existence.And the early Fathers of the faith had the gospels and the letters of the witnesess of Yeshua.
I would say the majority of what you hold as truth comes from the cannon.
If not, shame on you!
You say…
Quote
Christians had truth before they ever had written stories telling about the man they called “the truth”.Without Christ the bible turns into many bad things.
Southern slaves for example.
Maybe you can show me where the NT teaches such.
And since we know that Yeshua supported the Hebrew scriptures and never condemns them, then it seems the Cannon with the help of the Holy Spirit is an excellent source of truth for the believer!
Luke 4:3
And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.Matt 22:9
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2008,18:37) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 19 2008,16:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2008,04:43) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,18:56) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 12 2008,17:55) “….the essence of truth.” Interesting. You say the bible is truth yet…….all these things that have goofed it up. Hmmm See, I just can't buy that for a dollar anymore. The reason is that if the bible is truth AND inspired of God (that's a a biggie), then how come the mess-up's? And why didn't God allow his Word to be more pure so that we could find the absolute truth? As it is, we have to guess at it. Or as you say, study all the possiblities for running-a-muck and try to preserve the essence of the absolute truth that is hidden there. Ya, I get it now.
This might help Mandy.This is how I see it:
The bible is NOT TRUTH!
Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life.
The 10 commandments are NOT the PURE LAW.
The Father's spirit is the PURE LAW and he is LOVE.
The bible is a compilation of men's testamonies about their experiences both divine and mundane. They are glimpses of what they saw though looking through a glass darkly.
And sadly there errors and even forgeries. Entire epistles forged.
Scripture is just information. It is not THE TRUTH or THE LAW.
2 Timothy 3:16 is supposedly an epistle written by Paul. However, the pastorals are the most contested books in the bible. They were written much to late to be Paul's. They are forgeries by the early proto-catholic church as they tried to find ways to bring solidarity and structure to their new faith.
2 Timothy 3:16
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
So is scripture useful? Yes. But so is science, history and all the other fields of study.
SOLI am doubled over laughing..
First you say…
Quote
The bible is NOT TRUTH!Then you say…
Quote
Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life.Jn 14:6
It is sad that you doubled over laughing when I called Jesus THE TRUTH and you are a christian.The gospel of John is not the only source that says Jesus is the truth. I assume you thought it was funny because I used the bible to call Jesus the truth. Well it is not just the catholic canon that says this.
I am not saying that the catholic canon does not hold any truth I am saying that IT by itself is not truth.
No two new testament texts are exactly the same out of thousands of copies.
We have forgeries in the scripture.
If you could only answer with one word what would you say truth was as a Christian?
I would say Jesus.
He is the way the truth and the life. Christ in you not the bible. Thousands of christians lived and died without every owning one. The bible wasn't settled for hundreds of years.
Christians had truth before they ever had written stories telling about the man they called “the truth”.
Without Christ the bible turns into many bad things.
Southern slaves for example.
SOLWow!
Arent we touchy!
I think it is hillarious that from one side of your tongue you say the scriptures are corrupt and then out of the other quote John 14:6.
Let me repeat, you say…
Quote
The bible is NOT TRUTH!Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life.
You dont think that deserves a chuckle?
Come on SOL, you make these constant attacks on the written scriptures but only give us your opinions without any real proof the scritpures are false.
You measure what you think is scripture by your own theology.
You say…
Quote
The reason is that if the bible is truth AND inspired of God (that's a a biggie), then how come the mess-up's?The mess ups are in your own mind!
Show me once where Yeshua condemned Moses or the Prophets or the Hebrew scriptures!
Or maybe you can show me where his words disagrees with the writings of his followers that came later.
You say…
Quote And why didn't God allow his Word to be more pure so that we could find the absolute truth?
Like the scriptures say… Yeshua is “Truth” and we have the Spirit of truth that leads us into all truth, and for those with ears to hear know that neither Yeshua nor the Holy Spirit condemns the written scriptures.You say…
Quote
It is sad that you doubled over laughing when I called Jesus THE TRUTH and you are a christian.No it is sad that you being a “Loving Christian” insinuates that I was laughing at you calling Jesus the truth!
You said…
Quote
The gospel of John is not the only source that says Jesus is the truth.But the Gospel of John is the only source that says…”Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life.”.
You said…
Quote
I assume y
ou thought it was funny because I used the bible to call Jesus the truth.No. Im not laughing at you calling Jesus the Truth. I am laughing at you saying the scriptures are not true and then quoting from them. Sorry if that offends you. But you have to admit it does deserve a chuckle seeing how you esteem the written scriptures!
You say…
Quote
Well it is not just the catholic canon that says this.Well again, it is the only source I know of that says this…”Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life.”
You say…
Quote
I am not saying that the catholic canon does not hold any truth I am saying that IT by itself is not truth.No two new testament texts are exactly the same out of thousands of copies.
Problem you have with this statement is the differences are small and and have some ambiguity, but nothing that affects the whole or effects major doctrine, and surely does not deserve such disrespect and degradation as this…
Quote “The bible is NOT TRUTH! The 10 commandments are NOT the PURE LAW.“
Those were your words arent they?
Tell me SOL, how do you expect any one to accept or take seriously any quote that you make from the scriptures, if they know that you hold the scriptures in contempt?
You say…
Quote
We have forgeries in the scripture.Your opinion! All the major translations overwhelmingly agree with each other with minor variations.
You say…
Quote
If you could only answer with one word what would you say truth was as a Christian?I would say Jesus.
True! However would you not say when the “Truth” speaks that that is also truth.
John 14:6 is Yeshuas words and is written. That is truth right?
Why do you think Yeshua quoted to satan in the wilderness “written scriptures” and said “It is written”?
Was it because he believed the written scritpures were the lying tongue of the scribes?
You say…
Quote
He is the way the truth and the life. Christ in you not the bible. Thousands of christians lived and died without every owning one. The bible wasn't settled for hundreds of years.
The cannon wasnt settled for hundreds of years, however the Hebrew scriptures were settled long before then and in fact 200 Years before Christ the Septuagent was in existence.And the early Fathers of the faith had the gospels and the letters of the witnesess of Yeshua.
I would say the majority of what you hold as truth comes from the cannon.
If not, shame on you!
You say…
Quote
Christians had truth before they ever had written stories telling about the man they called “the truth”.Without Christ the bible turns into many bad things.
Southern slaves for example.
Maybe you can show me where the NT teaches such.
And since we know that Yeshua supported the Hebrew scriptures and never condemns them, then it seems the Cannon with the help of the Holy Spirit is an excellent source of truth for the believer!
Luke 4:3
And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.Matt 22:9
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
I am not angry WJ.Yes I can see why you would chuckle.
First, of all I do esteem the scriptures. I just don't think they are perfect God Breathed oracles of perfect truth.
I also consider the OTHER GOSPELS AND EARLY CHRISTIAN WRITINGS that were not selected by ROME.
What was consider “scripture” in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries became “heresy” in the 4th. This is easily proven by reading the early christians testamonies and writings. Yes even the big wigs like Iraneaus, Tertullian and Justin Martyr.
You don't consider them absolutely perfect either. You draw the line that in their original form they were. Of course, you also exclude the possibility of a forgery.
To be honest most of the sayings of Jesus are lifted from The Gospel of Thomas and/or the Q document.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas
http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/naghamm/gosthom.html
All of the writings and traditions about Jesus declare him to know or be a huge lists of things:
Love, light, truth, peace, spirit, life ad naseum.
And they all point to him knowing THE WAY to God. Hence, the name of his entire movement.
That is how I can say that without having to accept the Gospel of John as a Flawless document breathed out of the mouth of God. (even though the first thing that comes to mind is the entire falsified and added story of the women in adultary.)
Let me sum up my understanding for you.
Orthodox Christianity is the victor in a battle of different Christianities.
Textual Criticism and Archeaology are prooving that is was not the same faith as Jesus and the Twelve. The wrong one won. Take a moment to think about all the prophecies in the bible about how this very thing was predicted.
I don't really think I can say much in this regard as long as you hold the bible up with the same faith you give towards God. I don't think you would honestly hear my case even if I tried.
I also think you are perfectly aware of a multitude of sources you could look into written by scholars who could do a much better job of discussing the errors and forgeries of the NT texts.
I also think you are very intelligent and if you chose you could seek these things out yourself.
My only added two cents is just to encourage you to employ true and absolute intellectual and spiritual honesty in these matters as you study and learn like we all here are doing.
I am sure you would agree that it does no good to pretend something is correct if it r
eally isn't. (not saying you are doing this as I have no way of knowing what information you know and have weighed on the metaphorical scale of honesty)I do take issue with one of your statements.
You measure what you think is scripture by your own theology.
THIS IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO TELL YOU THAT ROME HAS DONE WHEN THEY FORMED THE CANON.
Why else do they disagree with the church fathers who came before them?
I am not using my personal theology to drive my conclusions.
I am using SCHOLARSHIP, ARCHEAOLOGY AND HISTORY.
For the brave among you, http://earlychristianwritings.com/
Hi SOL,
So you are the enlightened one who can guide us as to which path is true?
Sorry but dabblers in the esoteric and gnostic are blind guides.
We do not want to follow you to the pit.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 24 2008,06:55) Hi SOL,
So you are the enlightened one who can guide us as to which path is true?
Sorry but dabblers in the esoteric and gnostic are blind guides.
We do not want to follow you to the pit.
Jesus said the blind follow the blind and both fall into a pit.Do you follow Jesus or Paul?
I ask because they preach different gospels.
Hi SOL,
Can you not see the light of Christ shining in the words of Paul?
You should be able to if you are of the Spirit of God.Nick,
Can you see the light of Christ shining in other people you personally know? If so, is it always shining, or is it rather dim from time to time? What of your own light?
Hi KJ,
Do you have problems discerning the light of Christ in Paul too?
Surely not, the light is very bright.Hi KJ,
I do not think that anyone is totally enlivened by the Spirit at all times because we have been told it is as a wind that blows where it will. But when Paul sat down to write the words we are blessed to read then his pen was guided by the spirit of wisdom from God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 23 2008,16:22) Hi KJ,
I do not think that anyone is totally enlivened by the Spirit at all times because we have been told it is as a wind that blows where it will. But when Paul sat down to write the words we are blessed to read then his pen was guided by the spirit of wisdom from God.
And your assurance of this is?Php 1:18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice,
Pretense: The act of pretending; a false appearance or action intended to deceive
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